Yeah, I don't like that statement by Breslow at all.
It would be helpful to those of us who aren't in a position to read your mind to explain in greater detail why you posted these.But the question obviously including the remaining free agents.
Yeah, I don't like that statement by Breslow at all.
It would be helpful to those of us who aren't in a position to read your mind to explain in greater detail why you posted these.But the question obviously including the remaining free agents.
Some live in a fact-free world. Feel free to put me on "ignore."No, my take is he absolutely did not say they were finalists or that they were competitive. He never said either of those things. He said a lot of words when the questions were asked, but he never said "yes, we were finalists" or "yes, we were competitive." You're free to interpret what he said however you want, but you don't get to completely make up the words he said. I'm new here, but if this is what can be expected from you, I'm going to put you on ignore and it's not necessary for you to respond. When we can't even agree on the actual words the man said, this isn't going to go anywhere.
He never said they were finalists. He did say he "thinks" they were competitive which is open to interpretation. He also says he is competitive which is a very different thing. He also says they made a positive impression which is great but is the agent who also represents other players going to say he hates you and you suck or something? For someone who argues about syntax and what words are used as much as you do you need to do better here.Some live in a fact-free world. Feel free to put me on "ignore."
For anyone else:
"Do you feel like you were among the finalists for Yamamoto?""Yeah, I mean, I think that we were competitive. I think that we put our best foot forward, you know, kind of by all accounts we made a positive impression in terms of what we could offer. You know, we've got a Japanese infrastructure here that I think that has eased the transition for a number of players, you know, over the last 20 years or so. There are a number of Japanese players that have come over and had success, and have made that transition as smoothly and quickly as one can hope. Ultimately, it obviously didn't come together and some of that is potentially within our control and some of it isn't, right? Like we, you know, we can only influence the preferences of others so much. I'm proud of the way our group came together to demonstrate what we have to offer in Boston. Ultimately, it didn't work out, but you know as you kind of just generally think about a player who you know is kind of in the prime of his career and should contribute over a meaningful period of time, that's the right type of player that I would argue we should be targeting. And you know, I definitely don't want to gloss over the disappointment or frustration that fans feel, you know in hearing about this or reading about this, and we do as well in the office. You know I am as competitive in this position as I was as a player. And that means that I and others around me are trying to uncover every opportunity. We just have to like I said make sure we're balancing the building around an emerging core of players with the short term impact."
Let the pessimistic word parsing of "I think" and "you know" begin!! If we drill down real far, we can ask if the Red Sox were ever interested at all because he never confirmed they made a bid!
No, I think this, what I posted in the other thread.Do you think there simply is no way at all they could have spent more money on payroll this year without harming the future? Lugo (to whom the did is extend an offer, so they must have thought he was more than a sliver of an improvement) is only one possible path they ended up passing on. They don’t get to roll that 30 mil into next year.
And I know there’s a lot of time left. There just aren’t a lot of players left.
I think a lot of these guys were not options for us. We can speculate what it might have looked like if we’d wildly overbid on say, Nola — but again, you’re bidding against Dombrowski on a guy who clearly wants to stay in Philly. But I don’t think that the prospect of that abstract scenario having come true is convincing enough to justify the level of grievance and betrayal that we’re seeing.
- Clevinger - Not an option.
- Giolito - Signed with Boston.
- Gray - Wanted to sign with St. Louis and was very public about it.
- Imanaga - Wanted to sign in Chicago, took their offer over higher offers.
- Lugo - Not better than Crawford/Houck/Whitlock.
- Montgomery - Returning to Rangers is his "first choice," reportedly. South Carolinian. We’re reportedly among four other teams interested, per Heyman (Angels, Giants, Cubs).
- Nola - Re-signed very early in the offseason with Philly. Could be worth speculating what Breslow might have offered to get him to reconsider, but clearly it's in the realm of 8/$200M+++.
- Rodriguez - Family comfort is significant, reportedly. Said (by Sox Prospects’ Chris Hatfield and Ian Cundall) not to consider playing with Alex Cora.
- Snell - Reportedly wants to play in Seattle/West Coast.
- Stroman - Not really an option. Bad character fit. Reportedly close friends with David Price, who rightfully wouldn't recommend Boston. Signed with his hometown team. Has feuded with Cora.
- Urias - Not an option.
- Wacha - Not better than Crawford/Houck/Whitlock.
- Yamamoto - Wanted to play in Los Angeles, per Rosenthal. Ultimately was not an option.
One thing he cannot say is that Yamamoto prefers to be on the West Coast, a statement that would have a performative effect and become more broadly true — and factor in future negotiations with other players — once said aloud.He never said they were finalists. He did say he "thinks" they were competitive which is open to interpretation. He also says he is competitive which is a very different thing. He also says they made a positive impression which is great but is the agent who also represents other players going to say he hates you and you suck or something? For someone who argues about syntax and what words are used as much as you do you need to do better here.
There isn't one. He was asked about it, but didn't really answer the question.What is the citation for Breslow saying we were "finalists"? I have not seen that.
What does any of this even matter? He didn't sign here. The end.What is the citation for Breslow saying we were "finalists" on Yamamoto? I have not seen that.
Pretty much this.What does any of this even matter? He didn't sign here. The end.
It matters because we have folks here who want to put a positive spin on everything this front office and ownership group does while other folks want to put a negative spin on things. Some folks are in the middle and just want to live in reality where there are gray areas.What does any of this even matter? He didn't sign here. The end.
This whole discussion is silly but isn’t the answer in how you define finalist? We know he had initial zoom calls with 13 teams. From there he had in person meetings with 5 teams (LAD, NYY, NYM, SFG, BOS). He then visited the first 4 teams in their respective cities. Does being top 5 make you a finalist?He never said they were finalists
I'm not being snarky here, Nick, I promise, but the last sentence is one of the reasons why I don't think it matters. It's a gray area and we just will never get to the absolute truth so the discussion ends up circular and pointless. I'm just more focused on what's next I guess.It matters because we have folks here who want to put a positive spin on everything this front office and ownership group does while other folks want to put a negative spin on things. Some folks are in the middle and just want to live in reality where there are gray areas.
OK. Two points before I sign off and do some work.He never said they were finalists. He did say he "thinks" they were competitive which is open to interpretation. He also says he is competitive which is a very different thing. He also says they made a positive impression which is great but is the agent who also represents other players going to say he hates you and you suck or something? For someone who argues about syntax and what words are used as much as you do you need to do better here.
Edit: also what they have to offer probably doesn't mean just money.
And neither do I, not in the least. But there is a difference between sports and other more important aspects of life like science and legislation and medicine and law. I'm not going to get political but the way they were parsing their words and talking in generalizations is the way almost everyone in politics and business haves talked for decades. What would've really been disturbing is if one of the Sox brass came out and said, " We made (fill in the blank) by far the largest offer. It was the best offer, a beautiful offer and he took it and he used it against me and that not fair because i didn't win the offer".It doesn't really matter, nor does any of this, other than I don't want to be one of those living in a fact-free world
I don’t think it matters either but if posters are going to make authoritative statements parsing words and language then I want to make sure we’re being factual here. Maybe it’s petty but then don’t start the argument to begin with.I'm not being snarky here, Nick, I promise, but the last sentence is one of the reasons why I don't think it matters. It's a gray area and we just will never get to the absolute truth so the discussion ends up circular and pointless. I'm just more focused on what's next I guess.
I understand, and nothing you or others have been pushing back with is at all unfair.I don’t think it matters either but if posters are going to make authoritative statements parsing words and language then I want to make sure we’re being factual here. Maybe it’s petty but then don’t start the argument to begin with.
The very first word he says is "Yeah," which he then goes on to qualify at length. It's not "Nah, but. . ."But he never said they were finalists on YY, with or without the "cadence holder". Are we agreed on that?
The Red Sox apparently disagreed, because they were "finalists" in the Lugo bidding.Lugo - Not better than Crawford/Houck/Whitlock.
Chicago offered him four years, The Red Sox offered him two with vesting options. That's why he's in Chicago. It had nothing to do with deep dish pizza.Imanaga - Wanted to sign in Chicago, took their offer over higher offers.
He rejected a trade to LA because he didn't want to go to the West Coast, then he signed with Arizona. He took the most $$ (and good on him for doing so). If playing for Cora was a non-starter, he would not have taken a meeting with the Red Sox.Rodriguez - Family comfort is significant, reportedly. Said (by Sox Prospects’ Chris Hatfield and Ian Cundall) not to consider playing with Alex Cora.
Now you're just grasping at straws. The David Price bit is quite the leap. I could invent a similar "they couldn't have signed him" reason for every player ever.Stroman - Not really an option. Bad character fit. Reportedly close friends with David Price, who rightfully wouldn't recommend Boston. Signed with his hometown team. Has feuded with Cora.
However...I think there's a poster here who's been tracking the top 15 free agent starting pitchers by projected 2024 WAR, and 12 of them are gone.Jed Hoyer of the Cubs said in an interview yesterday that the offseason is still in the 4th or 5th inning.
I know it’s January 18th, but I think a lot of the frustration is being driven by casual fans (not you) who track the offseason by calendar dates and not the circumstances of this winter (Ohtani, then two 45-day negotiation windows from premier Japanese players, then Boras’s stare down). There’s a lot of time left.
Quite honestly, I'm only in this for the lying angle.As to the larger import of the point I think it goes something like this: Those who are more inclined to support the FO against those claiming that the FO is not spending as it should argue, in effect, that the team was prepared to pay for YY at the top end of the market, but were rebuffed for reasons other than money. If the Sox were "finalists" on YY this would support the FO defenders claim that Henry et al are not fairly criticized for not being willing to spend. If, by contrast, the team was never really in at the end on YY, and tapped out well under the ultimate price, then this primary argument of FO defenders would be largely refuted.
This was before it was clarified that Breslow was only talking about trading prospects, not free agents. When I saw that I agreed it was a click-bait job.It would be helpful to those of us who aren't in a position to read your mind to explain in greater detail why you posted these.
Why would we expect any baseball CBO to be fully honest, especially at this stage of the offseason? It can obviously put them at a disadvantage in the marketplace.Quite honestly, I'm only in this for the lying angle.
If you think Breslow responded honestly to the question, it's another set of facts to evaluate this off-season through. They indicate what they indicate.
If you think Breslow responded in a comprehensively dishonest way to the question, it's another fact and says something about him, and the off-season.
Personally I suspect there's a lot of people who have internalized some kind of narrative about "what the FSG is" but like Breslow and so can't really square the two.
I should have mentioned this above, but I think your general framing on the scrumming aspect of this re: arguments is correct.RR I understand you are trying to turn this into a question of whether people think Breslow is "lying" when he said they were finalists, when the narrow point that has been raised is about whether he actually said they were "finalists" on YY. Those are two different things, no?
And yeah, I interpret his "yeah" at the outset of his response as more of a cadence holder.
How could Breslow possibly know for sure if the package was "well received"?Breslow either told the truth about a complete package that he was proud of and was well received, or he lied. He either told the truth about there being things that were outside of his control with YY, or he lied. He either told the truth about YY being exactly the kind of player they would go after and try to land, or he lied.
Sorry on the clock - someone else can answer if you really don't know.How could Breslow possibly know for sure if the package was "well received"?
I think we’ll know a lot more about that at the end of the offseason. It would not have been unreasonable for the FO to say, in public, that we want to acquire multiple SP, thinking that this is like a #1/2 type and a #3 type. We’ve added a decent #3 type in Giolito; Lugo or Imanaga might have been another decent shot for that lane.The reason the "finalist" comment fiasco matters to me is that it's more proof that ownership is saying whatever it needs to get people in seats buying merch without having to back it up. Breslow and Werner have both already had to walk back comments about how the Sox are going to do this year and what expectations will be, as well as the avenues to get there. Breslow saying he thinks the Sox were finalists for YY does exactly what it was intended to do: makes it seem like the Sox are doing everything in their power to build the best team possible, without having to show any results to back it up. It lets the pro-ownership fans feel good about what the team is doing, without ownership having to do anything.
And since it's coming up, I don't think Breslow is lying - "competitive" covers a pretty broad range. Without knowing what it was, I am sure the Sox put in a generous (but not top-end offer), got to the point where YY was at least taking their call and... that's it. Of course that can be construed as competitive. Not competitive enough to win, but better than no-showing.
How does anyone know anything about the consciousness of the other? How does Breslow know that an evil Demon hasn’t deceived him into believing in the existence of Yoshinobu Yamamoto?How could Breslow possibly know for sure if the package was "well received"?
There are no gray areas for you, it seems.Sorry on the clock - someone else can answer if you really don't know.
The first question is one of the great philosophical questions.How does anyone know anything about the consciousness of the other? How does Breslow know that an evil Demon hasn’t deceived him into believing in the existence of Yoshinobu Yamamoto?
Ffs, move on. We made an offer. He accepted another. Unless you’re CHB’s secret account you should be better than this.What is the citation for Breslow saying we were "finalists" on Yamamoto? I have not seen that.
He has played first, but not since 2018. I don't know if that's just a function of his teams' needs, or his inability to do it well.I have no problem with bringing back Duvall, so long as he can learn to play 1B.
He has played first, but not since 2018. I don't know if that's just a function of his teams' needs, or his inability to do it well.
Well, he has played 43 games at 1B, most recently in 2018.I have no problem with bringing back Duvall, so long as he can learn to play 1B.
Who really knows. Reporting is constantly changing. What happened to the wife going to med school in Boston rumor's a couple months ago?No, I think this, what I posted in the other thread.
I think a lot of these guys were not options for us. We can speculate what it might have looked like if we’d wildly overbid on say, Nola — but again, you’re bidding against Dombrowski on a guy who clearly wants to stay in Philly. But I don’t think that the prospect of that abstract scenario having come true is convincing enough to justify the level of grievance and betrayal that we’re seeing.
The irony of all of this is that we did sign one of these guys! There are so many people pretending Giolito is only the guy he was the second half of last year, seemingly so they can stay angry.
Thank you. I've been waiting to see how long it would take to make this simple point. For those hung up on the word, please define finalist. And if I might add, I honestly don't understand this debate as it really appears to me that his destination was pretty much pre-determined by the Ohtani deal.This whole discussion is silly but isn’t the answer in how you define finalist? We know he had initial zoom calls with 13 teams. From there he had in person meetings with 5 teams (LAD, NYY, NYM, SFG, BOS). He then visited the first 4 teams in their respective cities. Does being top 5 make you a finalist?
So we signed Renfro. Who wound up in California before getting released. And now Duvall might wind up in California. There are both similar players.
…Breslow either told the truth about a complete package that he was proud of and was well received, or he lied…
… I mean who among has not thought our package was more impressive and better received than it actually was?How could Breslow possibly know for sure if the package was "well received"?
Yea, I think they need a right handed bat that can cover first and third. I’ve said this before but right now, Bobby Dalbec is 100% on the 26 man. No one can back up first right now.Gotta say, I don’t get the interest in any OF on a one year deal. For LHH you already have Yoshida, Duran and Abreu. For RHH you already have O’Neill and Refsnyder. Not to mention a prospect that (while his approach may not work against MLB, or it might, I have no idea) is learning nothing and not being challenged by AAA pitchers, and thus aren’t able to force him to make any adjustments.
Another one year OF just makes two incredibly redundant players (O’Neill and RR) even more redundant, and takes at bats and development away from younger players.
Only way it makes sense is if Breslow thinks Abreu and Rafaela are just AAAA level players.
Maybe someone would take RR or O’Neill for a PTBNL or some such, I suppose. But overall, I really don’t get adding another RHH OF for one year.
Breslow specifically said “position versatility” so I don’t think DH and maybe first maybe really fits.Hoskins is the perfect fit, not a great defender but can play 1b and lf (although he hasn’t done the latter in a while). RH bat who crushes lefties. He’s only 30, though, so imagine he either wants a long term deal or if a short term deal, a guarantee of more playing time. But seems like they could find enough at bats for him at 1b and dh, no?
Duvall tore the cover off the ball to start last season before he was injured, so if you mention September as if it means something, that should be mentioned too.So we signed Renfro. Who wound up in California before getting released. And now Duvall might wind up in California. There are both similar players.
Duvall slumped badly in September IIRC.
… I mean who among has not thought our package was more impressive and better received than it actually was?