Offseason rumors

LogansDad

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 15, 2006
28,662
Alamogordo
Thank you, I honestly had no idea that the phrase had such a racist history, and while it isn't one I have used frequently I don't think it will be removed from my family's diction.

For the record, @Yaz4Ever , while I think the post you are responded to could have been more tactful (and perhaps less combative), I did not feel like the poster was intending to call YTF a racist, merely pointing out that the term is problematic.

@SJMDownunder , might I recommend in the future adding some better context when you have a post like this come up? We try very hard around here to be sensitive to this stuff, but none of us is 100% aware of all of the things that we might do to offend, and nearly all of us are willing to improve and get better if guided down that path the right way.
 

CKDexterHaven

New Member
Dec 19, 2023
6
Stop calling a spade a spade. Do you actually know what it means? It’s worse than than the N word.
I'm going to go ahead and assert that, No—it's not.
After 56 years, i don't believe i've ever heard a word that's worse than the N word.

And, as a few comedians have 'joked,' a good test is that you typed out the word "spade" and did not type the 'N' word.
 

nvalvo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
21,346
Rogers Park
Wow. Welcome to the board. Now please feel free to leave if you think it’s appropriate to call out members in good standing here. @YTF is an asset to this board. So far, you are not.
I wouldn't take this posture. Look, SJMD may be right or wrong about whether "spade" is in fact a racial slur, if there's any fact to be had: it seems like the answer is kind of hazy. I am approaching 100% certainty that such a meaning wasn't YTF's intent, but I'm guessing YTF would probably want to know if he were unknowingly throwing racial slurs around.
 

simplicio

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 11, 2012
4,238
Thank you, I honestly had no idea that the phrase had such a racist history, and while it isn't one I have used frequently I don't think it will be removed from my family's diction.
I didn't either until this thread spurred a search, so I'm grateful even if it could have been brought up more politely. Easy enough change for me to make, personally.
 

CKDexterHaven

New Member
Dec 19, 2023
6
I* don't know the ethnodemography here, so i'll stand up: if i were to hear the phrase "call a spade a spade," i would be aware of the connotation, but i would not attribute the race-related connotation to it unless it came with that context or obvious implication.

To be honest, i would totally gloss over it and had i read it here before i read the reaction to it, i would not have given it a second thought. Heck, i have probably used it myself. At some point, it's overly burdensome to hold everyone responsible for recognition of every layer of etymology, especially when they begin as benign. More especially when the offended peoples decide to coopt it.


*I'm almost as brown as the MilkyWays i consume at an alarming rate.
 

YTF

Member
SoSH Member
Stop calling a spade a spade. Do you actually know what it means? It’s worse than than the N word.
You're way off base here and while I do recognize the sometimes, racist aspect of the word, there are other, acceptable uses that I'm guessing pre-date the usage that you are referring to and I'm willing to bet that you're well aware of that. I might understand some sort of admonishment had I used the term in reference to or in a discussion about a particular player or person of color. That clearly wasn't even remotely the case here. That said, I've no issue editing my post to something that you'll find less offensive. Congrats on you ten years of lurking here (can I still use that term?) and please feel free to contribute on a more regular basis.

Thanks to ALL who understood my intent, especially @jon abbey who took time out of his day to explain something that I never imagined would need explanation and to @Yaz4Ever who clearly has me confused with someone else. ;)
 
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Yaz4Ever

MemBer
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 10, 2004
11,223
MA-CA-RI-AZ-NC
Thank you, I honestly had no idea that the phrase had such a racist history, and while it isn't one I have used frequently I don't think it will be removed from my family's diction.

For the record, @Yaz4Ever , while I think the post you are responded to could have been more tactful (and perhaps less combative), I did not feel like the poster was intending to call YTF a racist, merely pointing out that the term is problematic.

@SJMDownunder , might I recommend in the future adding some better context when you have a post like this come up? We try very hard around here to be sensitive to this stuff, but none of us is 100% aware of all of the things that we might do to offend, and nearly all of us are willing to improve and get better if guided down that path the right way.
I wouldn't take this posture. Look, SJMD may be right or wrong about whether "spade" is in fact a racial slur, if there's any fact to be had: it seems like the answer is kind of hazy. I am approaching 100% certainty that such a meaning wasn't YTF's intent, but I'm guessing YTF would probably want to know if he were unknowingly throwing racial slurs around.
I like and respect both of you as much as I like @YTF . If this lurker or new member or whatever we’re calling them now wanted to make a comment like that they should’ve taken it directly to a PM. They chose not to do it and I have no problem calling them out on the way that they handled it. You don’t walk into a room full of people you don’t know and start making assumptions at least that’s the way I took it if that’s not how they intended it I apologize but it still should’ve been handled privately and that’s the last I have to say about it.
 
Mar 30, 2023
165
Wow. Welcome to the board. Now please feel free to leave if you think it’s appropriate to call out members in good standing here. @YTF is an asset to this board. So far, you are not.
The small number of people that will use the most rare interpretation of a phrase to get worked up over something used since Plutarch never ceases to amaze me. The entire phrase is over 2000 years old. jfc. Please let us know all other all other possible perceived slights we should avoid for you.
Man, SJMDownunder touched two SOSH third rails in one post: he was a new poster who dared provide an opinion on something, and he said something that made a bunch of upper middle class white dudes uncomfortable.
 
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Sin Duda

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
780
(B)Austin Texas
I* don't know the ethnodemography here, so i'll stand up: if i were to hear the phrase "call a spade a spade," i would be aware of the connotation, but i would not attribute the race-related connotation to it unless it came with that context or obvious implication.

To be honest, i would totally gloss over it and had i read it here before i read the reaction to it, i would not have given it a second thought. Heck, i have probably used it myself. At some point, it's overly burdensome to hold everyone responsible for recognition of every layer of etymology, especially when they begin as benign. More especially when the offended peoples decide to coopt it.


*I'm almost as brown as the MilkyWays i consume at an alarming rate.
Thanks for that Milky Way reference. I thought that was a reasonable attempt to calm the vitriol and since you have a legit right to be offended, I applaud your attempt. And welcome aboard. Long time Sox fan?
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,634
I* don't know the ethnodemography here, so i'll stand up: if i were to hear the phrase "call a spade a spade," i would be aware of the connotation, but i would not attribute the race-related connotation to it unless it came with that context or obvious implication.

To be honest, i would totally gloss over it and had i read it here before i read the reaction to it, i would not have given it a second thought. Heck, i have probably used it myself. At some point, it's overly burdensome to hold everyone responsible for recognition of every layer of etymology, especially when they begin as benign. More especially when the offended peoples decide to coopt it.


*I'm almost as brown as the MilkyWays i consume at an alarming rate.
Welcome to the board, and kudos on the nick. As the world's biggest Cary Grant fan I welcome a fellow traveler.
 

CKDexterHaven

New Member
Dec 19, 2023
6
Thanks for that Milky Way reference. I thought that was a reasonable attempt to calm the vitriol and since you have a legit right to be offended, I applaud your attempt. And welcome aboard. Long time Sox fan?
Glad that was appreciated in the intended spirit!
Yes, long time. I think I ‘joined up‘ after the Reds World Series loss. I grew up in a little town in Delaware. Philly teams were the ‘home’ teams but I never went for that. I had been a Reds fan until then. I was playing Whiffle Ball with a friend in the cul-de-sac at the top of our street and he hit a ball that he ‘narrated‘ with, “That baby’s gone—up, up, and over the green monster!” And I had to ask him what the heck he was talking about. He told me and I happened to catch a game on tv soon thereafter. Instantly fell for Yaz and Rice and Remy and FLynn and that was that. I adopted Rice’s stance in Little League and he became my baseball hero. Always thought he looked like an elegant gentleman. I was shocked—shocked, I tell ya—when years later I actually heard his voice.… Did not expect a SCarolina drawl.

Welcome to the board, and kudos on the nick. As the world's biggest Cary Grant fan I welcome a fellow traveler.
Then, I guess I’m the second biggest? We may have to fight this one out, though.

So, yeah, I’ve been a ‘lurker’ for a long, long time. I think I posted once at the start, and immediately got slapped down by someone who had no grace and didn’t welcome newbs. I recognized I was over my head and just observed ever since. I will now revert to that comfortable position.
 

SouthernBoSox

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2005
12,009
Hard pass on 3/42 for Soler. I’m ok with this.
It’s definitely more than I expected given where the market looks to be shaking out.

This has been as weird of a market as we’ve seen in a very long time.

It’s going to be absolutely fascinating where the big 4 Boras guys land. All good but flawed players.
 

moondog80

heart is two sizes two small
SoSH Member
Sep 20, 2005
7,948
Soler gets his 3 years. I imagine this will further embolden the Boras 4 to stick to their guns.
 

HfxBob

New Member
Nov 13, 2005
326
It’s definitely more than I expected given where the market looks to be shaking out.

This has been as weird of a market as we’ve seen in a very long time.

It’s going to be absolutely fascinating where the big 4 Boras guys land. All good but flawed players.
I know we're not signing Matt Chapman, but the guy has a 27.4 fWAR in 868 MLB games, an average of 4.7 fWAR per 150 games. He is a vastly above average player. So if he is "flawed", what does that say about the average MLB player?
 

SouthernBoSox

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2005
12,009
I know we're not signing Matt Chapman, but the guy has a 27.4 fWAR in 868 MLB games, an average of 4.7 fWAR per 150 games. He is a vastly above average player. So if he is "flawed", what does that say about the average MLB player?
He’s a 30 years old glove first player. His glove has gone from otherworldly to just good. His offensive profile is one of someone who could be below average very soon.

He’s obviously very good, but is he someone you give 25 a year for 4+? I don’t think so
 

simplicio

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 11, 2012
4,238
I know we're not signing Matt Chapman, but the guy has a 27.4 fWAR in 868 MLB games, an average of 4.7 fWAR per 150 games. He is a vastly above average player. So if he is "flawed", what does that say about the average MLB player?
The flaw in Chapman is in several years of declining stats, not a guy you want to give a big signing at all, let alone through a QO.
 

Bosoxman2004

New Member
Jul 15, 2005
64
Longview, Texas
I've seen several comparable players to Yoshida signing contracts for far less than he got, included Soler's 3 year 42 million dollar deal.

I'm curious how much Yoshida's contract has changed or hampered any possible plans to this off-season. I can definitely see why they might be a bit more desperate to get some value on the defensive side of the ball from Yoshida when players like Soler and Teoscar are signing for what I feel are more palatable to the club than Yoshida's looks like currently.
 

simplicio

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 11, 2012
4,238
Yoshida signed going into his age 29 season. Soler will be 32. That's the difference.

I'll take Yoshida's upside any day too. Soler obviously had a great 2023 but it was also his first good season in 4 years.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,014
Chapman's an interesting case. Last 3 seasons:

Exit velocity:
2021: 89.7
2022: 92.2
2023: 93.4

Line drive rate:
2021: 18.8%
2022: 22.3%
2023: 23.1%

Hard hit %:
2021: 41.8%
2022: 51.3%
2023: 56.9%

K rate:
2021: 32.5%
2022: 27.4%
2023: 28.4%

FB rate:
2021: 38.1%
2022: 30.0%
2023: 30.6%

GB rate:
2021: 33.6%
2022: 34.6%
2023: 35.0%

BABIP:
2021: .272
2022: .277
2023: .319

Pull/Center/Opp:
2021: 25.3% / 60.1% / 14.6%
2022: 31.1% / 55.8% / 13.1%
2023: 28.3% / 50.9% / 20.8%

Batting Avg:
2021: .210
2022: .229
2023: .240

ISO:
2021: .193
2022: .204
2023: .185

2b / HR:
2021: 15 / 27
2022: 27 / 27
2023: 37 / 17

So here's what I see happening with him over the last three seasons. He's hitting the ball as hard as, or harder, than he was three years ago. More line drives, higher exit velocity, more hard hit balls. But he's not pulling the ball as much. He's hitting a lot more the other way. That has the effect of increasing his doubles but greatly reducing his homers. That has the overall impact on his numbers because those homers (worth 4 bases) are now only doubles (worth 2 bases). But he's getting on base more (.330 obp in 2023 vs. .314 in 2021). He's just become a different kind of hitter. Less a power hitter and more of an all-around hitter. The net reduction in ops and ops+ is due to all these rockets being hit to right instead of being pulled to left, and all those homers turning into doubles.

He's still a solid hitter, but since he doesn't have a great batting average or OBP, the drop from those homers to doubles really reduces his overall hitting production. Coming to Fenway would certainly not help in terms of his home run production, if he's going to continue to spray the ball all over the park. They'd want him pulling it a lot more.

I don't know what to say about his defense. He committed more errors in 2023 than he has since 2018 (12 in 2023 vs. 20 in 2018). His range has also declined. But he's still above average with the glove.

I'm just not sure where he plays on the Sox. Sure put him at third. Then Raffy goes to DH. Fine. Then you've got to figure out Yoshida and the outfield.
 

Yelling At Clouds

Post-darwinian
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
3,328
Giants have made a lot of moves, that's for sure. Unfortunately, I don't think they're better than the Diamondbacks or Padres. I'm not even sure they're better than the Marlins or Mets.

I'll reiterate my Chapman-back-to-Toronto prediction (probably something creative, maybe with an early opt-out), I don't really see how anywhere else makes sense, all things considered.
 

simplicio

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 11, 2012
4,238
Chapman's 2023 numbers are entirely propped up by a white hot April. He spent 4 months last year with a .633 or lower OPS.

Chapman's an interesting case. Last 3 seasons:

Exit velocity:
2021: 89.7
2022: 92.2
2023: 93.4

Line drive rate:
2021: 18.8%
2022: 22.3%
2023: 23.1%

Hard hit %:
2021: 41.8%
2022: 51.3%
2023: 56.9%

K rate:
2021: 32.5%
2022: 27.4%
2023: 28.4%

FB rate:
2021: 38.1%
2022: 30.0%
2023: 30.6%

GB rate:
2021: 33.6%
2022: 34.6%
2023: 35.0%

BABIP:
2021: .272
2022: .277
2023: .319

Pull/Center/Opp:
2021: 25.3% / 60.1% / 14.6%
2022: 31.1% / 55.8% / 13.1%
2023: 28.3% / 50.9% / 20.8%

Batting Avg:
2021: .210
2022: .229
2023: .240

ISO:
2021: .193
2022: .204
2023: .185

2b / HR:
2021: 15 / 27
2022: 27 / 27
2023: 37 / 17

So here's what I see happening with him over the last three seasons. He's hitting the ball as hard as, or harder, than he was three years ago. More line drives, higher exit velocity, more hard hit balls. But he's not pulling the ball as much. He's hitting a lot more the other way. That has the effect of increasing his doubles but greatly reducing his homers. That has the overall impact on his numbers because those homers (worth 4 bases) are now only doubles (worth 2 bases). But he's getting on base more (.330 obp in 2023 vs. .314 in 2021). He's just become a different kind of hitter. Less a power hitter and more of an all-around hitter. The net reduction in ops and ops+ is due to all these rockets being hit to right instead of being pulled to left, and all those homers turning into doubles.

He's still a solid hitter, but since he doesn't have a great batting average or OBP, the drop from those homers to doubles really reduces his overall hitting production. Coming to Fenway would certainly not help in terms of his home run production, if he's going to continue to spray the ball all over the park. They'd want him pulling it a lot more.

I don't know what to say about his defense. He committed more errors in 2023 than he has since 2018 (12 in 2023 vs. 20 in 2018). His range has also declined. But he's still above average with the glove.

I'm just not sure where he plays on the Sox. Sure put him at third. Then Raffy goes to DH. Fine. Then you've got to figure out Yoshida and the outfield.
 

RS2004foreever

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 15, 2022
297
I've seen several comparable players to Yoshida signing contracts for far less than he got, included Soler's 3 year 42 million dollar deal.

I'm curious how much Yoshida's contract has changed or hampered any possible plans to this off-season. I can definitely see why they might be a bit more desperate to get some value on the defensive side of the ball from Yoshida when players like Soler and Teoscar are signing for what I feel are more palatable to the club than Yoshida's looks like currently.
At this point the Yoshida contract does not look good.
 

chawson

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
4,616
At 3 years and 42 million I am glad we passed .... I'm okay with Duvall who can play in the field as well. On another note, does this in any way affect SF ability to sign Montgomery or Snell?
I've thought the Giants were a lock for one of Bellinger/Chapman/Snell but I'm really curious what they do now. They really do have a good amount of starting pitching.

Duvall is many degrees less interesting than Soler to me but their on-field value is likely closer than I want to think. Still, it's a minor bummer. I think if the Sox are going to make a play for Juan Soto next winter, then it's better to not have Soler and Yoshida tied up in multi-year deals.
 

SouthernBoSox

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2005
12,009
I've thought the Giants were a lock for one of Bellinger/Chapman/Snell but I'm really curious what they do now. They really do have a good amount of starting pitching.

Duvall is many degrees less interesting than Soler to me but their on-field value is likely closer than I want to think. Still, it's a minor bummer. I think if the Sox are going to make a play for Juan Soto next winter, then it's better to not have Soler and Yoshida tied up in multi-year deals.
I really think the addition has to be able play first base. Bobby Dalbec is on this roster. If they think Duval can be that guy, then great, but I'm not so sure. Garrett Cooper could make a lot of sense, as depressing as it sounds.
 

Brohamer of the Gods

Well-Known Member
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
3,927
Warwick, RI
Chapman's an interesting case. Last 3 seasons:

I'm just not sure where he plays on the Sox. Sure put him at third. Then Raffy goes to DH. Fine. Then you've got to figure out Yoshida and the outfield.
I don't think that the Red Sox are signing Chapman either, but if they did I could certainly agree with the notion that filling one of your defensive gaps with a gold glover who can at least hit is defensible, particularly if you are picking 3B as being more important than LF.
 

Fishy1

Head Mason
SoSH Member
Nov 10, 2006
5,808
I don't think that the Red Sox are signing Chapman either, but if they did I could certainly agree with the notion that filling one of your defensive gaps with a gold glover who can at least hit is defensible, particularly if you are picking 3B as being more important than LF.
He would be the only above average two way player on the Sox unless Story returns to form. A four to five win player is exactly what we need. But it would force Yoshida back into the field and Devers to DH.

I don't know. There are definitely worse results.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
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Jan 23, 2009
20,395
Maine