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reggiecleveland

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You guys are such enablers.
Holy fuck
enablers? Get the fuck out. JFC it is the finals guys actually try. Enablers. Send a complaint to HR. Tell the teacher!
56235

Maybe you are in too deep.
Tatum didn't react and he isn't exactly from the school of stoicism when it come to refs.

There are a hundred actual dirty plays by Draymond, kicking Adams, for one. Just because non hoopers have social medai accounts and post shit doesn't make it actually dirty

it is basically this move.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXqvccT2xmY


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhG2iUSsidI


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dSp1wZQq14
 
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Auger34

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Green has always been a bully. The Warriors have encouraged it because it helps them win and the league has been good with it because the Warriors are a draw. He should have been thrown out of nearly every game the last few years but because he is Draymond he has gotten away with it. Draymond has been allowed to cross the line before. This is just an extension of who he has always been. It will be interesting if he finally went to far.
I think this nails it.

I want to preface this by saying a few things. I am not a Poole fan. I think he’s a jackass who committed some dirty plays in the Finals and generally acts like a much better player than he really is.
But, even with that being said, what a disgusting display by Draymond.
As just a bit says, this is who Draymond is. He’s been protected by a coach who is all too willing to go in front of a microphone and call out other players but never says a single word about the guy on his own team who’s running amok. Whether it’s talking about Marcus Smart being dirty for going after a loose ball or accuse other players of “breaking the code” for any sort of infraction it’s pretty nauseating for any non-Warriors fan to hear.

It’s a major pet peeve of mine that players like Draymond and Pat Bev are praised for being “agitators” as if it’s some sort of skill. Being such a piece of shit and stooping to lows that normal humans don’t ever want to reach isn’t a skill or some characteristic earned by hard work. It’s basically being a sociopath and using it to your advantage.

It’s a shame because Draymond is an all time defensive player but in my mind he will be mostly remembered for being a complete jackass
 

JakeRae

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Holy fuck
enablers? Get the fuck out. JFC it is the finals guys actually try. Enablers. Send a complaint to HR. Tell the teacher!
View attachment 56235

Maybe you are in too deep.
Tatum didn't react and he isn't exactly from the school of stoicism when it come to refs.

There are a hundred actual dirty plays by Draymond, kicking Adams, for one. Just because non hoopers have social medai accounts and post shit doesn't make it actually dirty

it is basically this move.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXqvccT2xmY


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhG2iUSsidI


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dSp1wZQq14
Which one of those clips of actual swim moves show a player wrapping his arm around the front of the neck of a player and then yanking them backwards? How is that distinction not a notable difference for you?
 

djbayko

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"This happens all the time in practice for every single team. The only thing different is that a video was leaked. We handle this in house and it was handled."

That or Poole isn't 100% innocent in the situation.
While we rarely see videos from within private NBA practices, I'm very confident that what we see in that video doesn't happen all the time. It was a Superman sucker punch for crying out loud, physically instigated by Draymond BTW. I don't care what Poole did or didn't say. That's fucked up.
 

PedrosRedGlove

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With a swim move you try and get over and around someone. It's a really sorry attempt at a swim move, (Almost as if it was just meant to instigate, not actually accomplish anything) that fails, as Tatum easily just extends his right arm to box it out. At which point Draymond grabs Tatum to stay on his back and tries to and yank him backwards.

I don't think anyone's up in arms over this individual play, it wasn't egregious and is probably never getting called. But it's a great example of Draymond being Draymond (An overaggressive ass.) moreso than just something that happens all the time in the flow of basketball.
 

kenneycb

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You guys are such enablers.



Right, because it's common to sucker-punch a teammate in the face during a break in the game.




Uh huh. A guy tries to box you out and you chop him across the neck from behind, then throw him backwards with both arms. Sure.
I’m not saying it is. I’m saying it’s stupid to say “Well in corporate America…” because if that standard held sports would literally not exist. Every player on every play in football would be arrested. It’s a dumb standard to compare things to. Sports operates in its own vacuum. And that’s okay. That doesn’t mean you can Todd Bertuzzi folks though.
 

benhogan

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The punch was shocking since Poole didn't even have his hands up to defend himself. So it looked particularly violent as opposed to hockey players duking it out or football violence. BUT in no way should it be compared to white-collar office work. The Warriors don't appear to be bothered by it and are looking to string up the AV operator.

I'd like to see Green's in-game antics, with the refs & other players, held to the same standard as the rest of the NBA. If that means he gets thrown out of half the games so be it. Someone needs to draw the line with Dray since Bob Myers, Steve Kerr and GS teammates are enablers (& beneficiaries) of his out-of-control behavior. There is zero need for the NBA & refs to be so permissive with him.
 
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BigSoxFan

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The punch was shocking since Poole didn't even have his hands up to guard himself. So it looked particularly violent as opposed to hockey players duking it out or football violence. BUT in no way should it be compared to white-collar office work. The Warriors don't appear to be bothered by it and are looking to string up the AV operator.

I'd like to see Green's in-game antics, with the refs & other players, held to the same standard as the rest of the NBA. If that means he gets thrown out of half the games so be it. Someone needs to draw the line with Dray since Bob Myers, Steve Kerr and GS teammates are enablers (& beneficiaries) of his out-of-control behavior. There is zero need for the NBA & refs to be so permissive with him.
Guarantee the ref treatment of Draymond changes the moment he leaves GS, if he ever does.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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The punch was shocking since Poole didn't even have his hands up to guard himself. So it looked particularly violent as opposed to hockey players duking it out or football violence. BUT in no way should it be compared to white-collar office work. The Warriors don't appear to be bothered by it and are looking to string up the AV operator. It's kind of humorous watching righteous virtue signalers get held up to their own standard
That's cool. You know who is bothered by it? The guy that got cheapshotted and knocked out while playing a kids game.

You know he is because, while everyone else has had something to say, he hasn't said a fucking word. If he was fine with the apology and willing to move on, he would have said so by now. Probably on Twitter, since I'm sure his swollen face won't look good on camera.

But he hasn't said a word because he's fucking embarrassed and angry. People being tough guys by saying, "this isn't a big deal because it's sports" have clearly never been knocked out or lost a fight. Getting punched, losing a fight, getting knocked out is a mind fuck. It kills your confidence and ego for days or weeks. You feel ashamed and embarassed, even if you did nothing wrong or were suckerpunched. It's fucking terrible.

Poole may end up saying "the right things" at some point, but that punch is nowhere near the same as other on field/court altercations. He'll never be able to trust Draymond again.
 

pjheff

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"This happens all the time in practice for every single team. The only thing different is that a video was leaked. We handle this in house and it was handled."
It reminds me of the Ray Rice video. We hear as many stories of spousal abuse as we do skirmishes at practice, but somehow seeing the violence of it changes public perception. I don’t see how the team and/or the league can fail to act at this point.
 

BigSoxFan

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That's cool. You know who is bothered by it? The guy that got cheapshotted and knocked out while playing a kids game.

You know he is because, while everyone else has had something to say, he hasn't said a fucking word. If he was fine with the apology and willing to move on, he would have said so by now. Probably on Twitter, since I'm sure his swollen face won't look good on camera.

But he hasn't said a word because he's fucking embarrassed and angry. People being tough guys by saying, "this isn't a big deal because it's sports" have clearly never been knocked out or lost a fight. Getting punched, losing a fight, getting knocked out is a mind fuck. It kills your confidence and ego for days or weeks. You feel ashamed and embarassed, even if you did nothing wrong or were suckerpunched. It's fucking terrible.

Poole may end up saying "the right things" at some point, but that punch is nowhere near the same as other on field/court altercations. He'll never be able to trust Draymond again.
Chris Rock is a perfect example. He didn’t say shit for months and then when he finally did, he was pretty clearly and understandably pissed off at Will Smith.

Comparing sports to office situations is not applicable but the same thing applies to comparing hockey to basically any other sport, especially NBA basketball. And the action was off the court in any event.
 

Eagle3

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If Draymond was a Celtic his entire career, would Celtics fans love him, hate him, or just tolerate him?
Boston already has pretty close to his hockey equivalent in Brad Marchand. Granted, Marchand hasn't cheap shotted a teammate that I'm aware of, although I wouldn't be surprised if it's happened in a closed practice. But he's very similar to Draymond in terms of a very good player who is an instigator, agitator, and cheap shot artist, not to mention the whole licking thing.
I'm a diehard Celtic fan, and what I would call a casual Bruins fan. I can't stand Marchand. I would have a really, really hard time rooting for Draymond.
 

Cesar Crespo

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If Draymond was a Celtic his entire career, would Celtics fans love him, hate him, or just tolerate him?
Boston already has pretty close to his hockey equivalent in Brad Marchand. Granted, Marchand hasn't cheap shotted a teammate that I'm aware of, although I wouldn't be surprised if it's happened in a closed practice. But he's very similar to Draymond in terms of a very good player who is an instigator, agitator, and cheap shot artist, not to mention the whole licking thing.
I'm a diehard Celtic fan, and what I would call a casual Bruins fan. I can't stand Marchand. I would have a really, really hard time rooting for Draymond.
The NHL is different than the NBA, though. The NHL literally has goons/enforcers. There is no Bob Probert in the NBA. If it was the NBA of the 80s, we'd probably love Green. Have him go after Tree Rollins.

Also didn't realize Probert died in 2010 at age 45.

edit: When was the last time the NBA had Oakley/Mason type enforcers? Mason would just have to stand there and everyone would be scared shitless.
 

Auger34

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If Draymond was a Celtic his entire career, would Celtics fans love him, hate him, or just tolerate him?
Boston already has pretty close to his hockey equivalent in Brad Marchand. Granted, Marchand hasn't cheap shotted a teammate that I'm aware of, although I wouldn't be surprised if it's happened in a closed practice. But he's very similar to Draymond in terms of a very good player who is an instigator, agitator, and cheap shot artist, not to mention the whole licking thing.
I'm a diehard Celtic fan, and what I would call a casual Bruins fan. I can't stand Marchand. I would have a really, really hard time rooting for Draymond.
Personally, I would tolerate him.

He seems to have leadership qualities and players rally around him (at least before that video we all saw), he’s a great defensive player and seems to have a sky high IQ….but everything else is just exhausting.
Constantly aggressively going after officials is annoying and tired to watch (I say that as a card carrying member of the “I think all refs suck” club) and all of the woofing and extracurricular shit is ridiculous.
I honestly don’t know how anyone could “love” him. I would be embarrassed if a Celtic player continually acted like that
 

Ferm Sheller

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Leaving age, ability, and position aside, who would people rather have on the C's -- Draymond or Grayson Allen?
 

Auger34

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That's cool. You know who is bothered by it? The guy that got cheapshotted and knocked out while playing a kids game.

You know he is because, while everyone else has had something to say, he hasn't said a fucking word. If he was fine with the apology and willing to move on, he would have said so by now. Probably on Twitter, since I'm sure his swollen face won't look good on camera.

But he hasn't said a word because he's fucking embarrassed and angry. People being tough guys by saying, "this isn't a big deal because it's sports" have clearly never been knocked out or lost a fight. Getting punched, losing a fight, getting knocked out is a mind fuck. It kills your confidence and ego for days or weeks. You feel ashamed and embarassed, even if you did nothing wrong or were suckerpunched. It's fucking terrible.

Poole may end up saying "the right things" at some point, but that punch is nowhere near the same as other on field/court altercations. He'll never be able to trust Draymond again.
I think you and Benhogan are in complete agreement here. I took his post to mean that the Warriors organization (Bob Myers and the FO, Kerr and the coaching staff) don’t appear to be as bothered by it as they should be since they seem to be spending a lot of manpower and outrage about the video leaking not the content of the video
 

Auger34

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The NHL is different than the NBA, though. The NHL literally has goons/enforcers. There is no Bob Probert in the NBA. If it was the NBA of the 80s, we'd probably love Green. Have him go after Tree Rollins.

Also didn't realize Probert died in 2010 at age 45.

edit: When was the last time the NBA had Oakley/Mason type enforcers? Mason would just have to stand there and everyone would be scared shitless.
This is true and another big difference is that Marchand gets punished for almost all of his antics (licking and all the other nonsense) whereas Draymond getting punished for anything is pretty rare
 

luckiestman

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This is true and another big difference is that Marchand gets punished for almost all of his antics (licking and all the other nonsense) whereas Draymond getting punished for anything is pretty rare
I agree. My problem isn’t with instigators, I would do it. My problem has always been with the NBA letting this guy get away with stuff other players don’t.
 

reggiecleveland

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With a swim move you try and get over and around someone. It's a really sorry attempt at a swim move, (Almost as if it was just meant to instigate, not actually accomplish anything) that fails, as Tatum easily just extends his right arm to box it out. At which point Draymond grabs Tatum to stay on his back and tries to and yank him backwards.

I don't think anyone's up in arms over this individual play, it wasn't egregious and is probably never getting called. But it's a great example of Draymond being Draymond (An overaggressive ass.) moreso than just something that happens all the time in the flow of basketball.
look that happens a lot. It was absolutely an attempt to intimidate and push Tatum around. It was a ft that went in and Draymond knows no foul will be called, so he gave Tatum a shot. Attempts to intimidate are part of the game and often decisive. Pedro knocking down Matsui was as vital as Roberts' steal in my opinion. But LOL on Draymond Tatum did not shrink from the moment and played great and the Celtics won. Or maybe it worked a little.

I view a play like that as a player or coach. It is part of the game you cannot overreact about. If you get tangled up you don't stop "Heavens to Betsy I may bump him in the head if I keep going" and if it happens to you don't think "My hero Kobe would withdraw into a shell of himself for the next three games!"
 

djbayko

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The argument of that play being perfectly fine was funny back then and it’s funny now. And calling people soft is a neat way of making sure you can’t lose the argument.

Sure; that play happens all the time. And players knocking out teammates in practice is commonplace also. /s
 

scottyno

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I view a play like that as a player or coach. It is part of the game you cannot overreact about. If you get tangled up you don't stop "Heavens to Betsy I may bump him in the head if I keep going" and if it happens to you don't think "My hero Kobe would withdraw into a shell of himself for the next three games!"
You must have coached tougher players than 1st team all nbaers
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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The argument of that play being perfectly fine was funny back then and it’s funny now. And calling people soft is a neat way of making sure you can’t lose the argument.

Sure; that play happens all the time. And players knocking out teammates in practice is commonplace also. /s
The punch is clearly unacceptable behavior.

That said, you are a message boarder debating someone who coaches the sport at an advanced level. Maybe you are right and rc is wrong but the poster's experience plus the fact that few players complain about these things as much as fans should lead you to question your stance here.

I honestly don't have one clue whether NBA players think that move is dirty or not. The balance of evidence - mostly that those sorts of things happen each NBA game and garner almost no public complaints from the players - suggest that they have learned to live with it at least.

If they aren't complaining and we have an experienced coach telling us its fairly common, what does that say? A culture of enabling? Or maybe the sport is tougher than many fans would like to think.
 

djbayko

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The punch is clearly unacceptable behavior.

That said, you are a message boarder debating someone who coaches the sport at an advanced level. Maybe you are right and rc is wrong but the poster's experience plus the fact that few players complain about these things as much as fans should lead you to question your stance here.

I honestly don't have one clue whether NBA players think that move is dirty or not. The balance of evidence - mostly that those sorts of things happen each NBA game and garner almost no public complaints from the players - suggest that they have learned to live with it at least.

If they aren't complaining and we have an experienced coach telling us its fairly common, what does that say? A culture of enabling? Or maybe the sport is tougher than many fans would like to think.
I challenge that Tatum didn't complain. He was thrown off camera in that clip, so we don't know (and I honestly can't remember what he did there and couldn't be bothered to replay that game). But you don't need to be a coach to know that you don't see that all the time when watching NBA basketball. The counter evidence provided were videos of completely different (clean) plays. If it's so common, then let's see it. I agree with his statement that Draymond has far more egregious plays in his history, but that fact doesn't make that a sportsmanlike play.
 
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JakeRae

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The punch is clearly unacceptable behavior.

That said, you are a message boarder debating someone who coaches the sport at an advanced level. Maybe you are right and rc is wrong but the poster's experience plus the fact that few players complain about these things as much as fans should lead you to question your stance here.

I honestly don't have one clue whether NBA players think that move is dirty or not. The balance of evidence - mostly that those sorts of things happen each NBA game and garner almost no public complaints from the players - suggest that they have learned to live with it at least.

If they aren't complaining and we have an experienced coach telling us its fairly common, what does that say? A culture of enabling? Or maybe the sport is tougher than many fans would like to think.
I tend to judge arguments based on the evidence supporting them, not the authority of the person presenting them. Here, RC said this happens all the time. He then posted 3 videos purporting to be evidence of that fact. But each of those 3 videos showed completely normal swim moves. Based on that, my conclusion is that RC cannot actually support his claim that yanking players backward by their neck is a normal or commonplace basketball maneuver.
 

Sox Puppet

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I honestly don't have one clue whether NBA players think that move is dirty or not. The balance of evidence - mostly that those sorts of things happen each NBA game and garner almost no public complaints from the players - suggest that they have learned to live with it at least.

If they aren't complaining and we have an experienced coach telling us its fairly common, what does that say? A culture of enabling? Or maybe the sport is tougher than many fans would like to think.
Maybe "enabling" was a strong word on my part, but I still stand by the sentiment. Let's say Tatum, or Poole, doesn't complain about Draymond's actions for fear of being labeled as "soft" (a term that rc introduced here). It doesn't mean it's an acceptable act or that they aren't bothered by it. It just means they know they can't complain, because they'll look "soft" and the opponent has "gotten into their head." So they have to just suck it up and let it go. On a broader level, this is what we men have been taught since childhood in our society.

I think it's telling that you don't see a Giannis, or Embiid, or Jokic resorting to these kinds of plays. That's because they actually have skill. Draymond used to have skill and toughness, which is what made him great, but now that his skills are in obvious decline, he is overcompensating on the "toughness" angle. If the reports are to be believed, Poole trash-talked him by calling him "Triple Single" in practice. Draymond can dish out the trash talk, but that one probably would have hit close to home and provoked the violent reaction.
 

BigSoxFan

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Maybe "enabling" was a strong word on my part, but I still stand by the sentiment. Let's say Tatum, or Poole, doesn't complain about Draymond's actions for fear of being labeled as "soft" (a term that rc introduced here). It doesn't mean it's an acceptable act or that they aren't bothered by it. It just means they know they can't complain, because they'll look "soft" and the opponent has "gotten into their head." So they have to just suck it up and let it go. On a broader level, this is what we men have been taught since childhood in our society.

I think it's telling that you don't see a Giannis, or Embiid, or Jokic resorting to these kinds of plays. That's because they actually have skill. Draymond used to have skill and toughness, which is what made him great, but now that his skills are in obvious decline, he is overcompensating on the "toughness" angle. If the reports are to be believed, Poole trash-talked him by calling him "Triple Single" in practice. Draymond can dish out the trash talk, but that one probably would have hit close to home and provoked the violent reaction.
Agreed. I think using the presence of or lack thereof of public complaints is a completely meaningless data point here. There are plenty of reasons why professional athletes don’t air their dirty laundry in the media, especially when it might have implications on their perception across the league.

As for the argument that the play is relatively commonplace, well, if it is then it’ll happen again. This board collectively watches a shit ton of basketball. Let’s all post videos that show a player grabbing another one backward by the neck. Should be plenty to choose from during this upcoming season.
 

benhogan

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I think you and Benhogan are in complete agreement here. I took his post to mean that the Warriors organization (Bob Myers and the FO, Kerr and the coaching staff) don’t appear to be as bothered by it as they should be since they seem to be spending a lot of manpower and outrage about the video leaking not the content of the video
Yes, you are correct.

Kenny sounded like he wanted to vent
 

Cesar Crespo

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And players knocking out teammates in practice is commonplace also. /s
FWIW, my comment about that was spin. Whenever these incidents do happen (and they do, but they aren't commonplace), it's "it happens all the time and we deal with it internally. Not a big deal."

I'm sure scuffles happen all the time in practice, just like they do in NBA games. It's a bunch of players pretending they want to fight each other. They'll do it very slow and deliberate so other players can get in between them. The haymaker? Yeah, that's not commonplace at all. But fighting is. And they were fighting. So it happens all the time!

Jordan Poole also pushed him (totally instigated), which was an incorrect response to an incorrect action which was followed up by something even worse. Maybe it's something that can be used against Poole in games. See if you can rile him up to react. Maybe get some Ts in the process if it gets Poole ejected. It's probably just a one off from one of the biggest instigators in the league though.

I'm also talking from a gamesmanship POV. In real life, Poole 100% should have shoved Draymond off of him.
 

djbayko

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FWIW, my comment about that was spin. Whenever these incidents do happen (and they do, but they aren't commonplace), it's "it happens all the time and we deal with it internally. Not a big deal."

I'm sure scuffles happen all the time in practice, just like they do in NBA games. It's a bunch of players pretending they want to fight each other. They'll do it very slow and deliberate so other players can get in between them. The haymaker? Yeah, that's not commonplace at all. But fighting is. And they were fighting. So it happens all the time!

Jordan Poole also pushed him (totally instigated), which was an incorrect response to an incorrect action which was followed up by something even worse. Maybe it's something that can be used against Poole in games. See if you can rile him up to react. Maybe get some Ts in the process if it gets Poole ejected. It's probably just a one off from one of the biggest instigators in the league though.
Yeah, I know. I wasn’t really debating you but rather jumping off your post. Sorry. It’s a ridiculous statement by GSW but there’s not much more they can say since they apparently swept the whole thing under the rug, I’m guessing due to Draymond’s tenure and status on the team.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Agreed. I think using the presence of or lack thereof of public complaints is a completely meaningless data point here. There are plenty of reasons why professional athletes don’t air their dirty laundry in the media, especially when it might have implications on their perception across the league.

As for the argument that the play is relatively commonplace, well, if it is then it’ll happen again. This board collectively watches a shit ton of basketball. Let’s all post videos that show a player grabbing another one backward by the neck. Should be plenty to choose from during this upcoming season.
If I understand your stance correctly, the play in question is a problem despite the fact that the players involved did not complain about it.

I am clearly on an island here but if the professionals aren't complaining, I don't see it as something to discuss. My sense is that the mentality around the league is that if players get away with this sort of thing, their opponents are trained to match that physicality.

Finally, there are no tears here for Draymond Green - he deserves all the criticism he gets - but we have to admit that if we are using the standard of wrong-despite-getting-away-with-it, we have a long line of Celtics agitators that we need to acknowledge.

Winning is beautiful but competition can be ugly.
 
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Cesar Crespo

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In that situation, wouldn't Poole have to press charges or could someone else?

I could NBA players looking down on Poole for pressing charges since it's a fraternity. Much like other team sports.
 

djbayko

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If I understand your stance correctly, the play in question is a problem despite the fact that the players involved did not complain about it.

I am clearly on an island here but if the professionals aren't complaining, I don't see it as something to discuss. My sense is that the mentality around the league is that if players get away with this sort of thing, their opponents are trained to match that physicality.

Finally, there are no tears here for Draymond Green - he deserves all the criticism he gets - but we have to admit that if we are using the standard of wrong-despite-getting-away-with-it, we have a long line of Celtics agitators that we need to acknowledge.

Winning is beautiful but competition can be ugly.
Oh, you're talking about publicly complaining about it being a dirty play? I assumed you were adding onto Reggie's assertion that Tatum didn't react to the play in real time (which is impossible to know using the linked video). That's a whole other thing. Players don't talk about every cheap play that happens on the court - in fact, they almost never talk about any of them unless they result in some sort of unnecessary injury for fairly obvious reasons. That doesn't mean we have to ignore them as observers of the game and pretend that all players are on the level. Someone has taken the position that that play is completely normal and commonplace. That's absurd, and it was rightly used as just one example of the type of shit that Draymond Green tries to get away with all the time.

Edit: I don't know if this if factoring into it, but it seems like there's some nostalgia for the way players were tougher in the 80s/90s coming through in some of these posts. I get it. I think most of us grew up watching that style of basketball. That's the environment I played basketball in. I love it too. I can totally see Larry Bird doing that to someone when he's pissed off. But Larry Bird is 65 years old now, and that style of play is considered unacceptable (and that play still would have been a foul back then).
 
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BigSoxFan

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May 31, 2007
47,739
If I understand your stance correctly, the play in question is a problem despite the fact that the players involved did not complain about it.

I am clearly on an island here but if the professionals aren't complaining, I don't see it as something to discuss. My sense is that the mentality around the league is that if players get away with this sort of thing, their opponents are trained to match that physicality.

Finally, there are no tears here for Draymond Green - he deserves all the criticism he gets - but we have to admit that if we are using the standard of wrong-despite-getting-away-with-it, we have a long line of Celtics agitators that we need to acknowledge.

Winning is beautiful but competition can be ugly.
My stance is that the play we’re all talking about is just part of a long list of dirty plays from a guy who is in the news now for literally punching a teammate in the face.

I reject RC’s assertion that it is commonplace. The burden of proof is on him to support that argument. So far, he has failed to adequately do so, as others have pointed out. But I’m sure we’ll see plenty of follow up from him on this from similar plays during the 2022-2023 season. Shouldn’t be hard to find similar examples since it’s so common.

I also reject the argument that Tatum’s lack of public admonishment somehow proves that the play is not dirty and and/or atypical. The sad part is that this particular play isn’t even close to the worst thing he’s done.

All of this is just unfortunate. Draymond has entered Rodman territory where his antics are overshadowing just how great of a player he was during the Warriors’ epic stretch. I think he has a lot of unresolved emotional/anger management issues that he simply needs to address. But maybe he’s trying, I don’t know.
 

Marciano490

Urological Expert
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Nov 4, 2007
62,608
Nine years in boxing gyms, and a sucker punch like that, even during light sparring, would be a problem.

Plus, weren’t we all worried about concussions last week?
 

Fishy1

Head Mason
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Nov 10, 2006
6,525
If we're wondering if players care about the behavior, uh, here's a guy on his own team:

56249
56250

Those are both Steph. Supporting Draymond, while also categorically condemning the behavior. By no means is Steph saying "boys will be boys" here. "Don't do this" is the imperative.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Dec 22, 2002
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Edit: I don't know if this if factoring into it, but it seems like there's some nostalgia for the way players were tougher in the 80s/90s coming through in some of these posts. I get it. I think most of us grew up watching that style of basketball. That's the environment I played basketball in. I love it too. I can totally see Larry Bird doing that to someone when he's pissed off. But Larry Bird is 65 years old now, and that style of play is considered unacceptable (and that play still would have been a foul back then).
There is. The same poster calling other posters soft got all upset and made it a huge deal when I said "Get off my lawn" because I said today's NBA is just as entertaining/more so as the play of the 80s. Of course, the play of the 80s is so vague. We talking play like Denver or play like Detroit? There was definitely more variety, anyway. He's not a fan of the 3 ballcentric game of the 10s and 20s, and misses the Centercentric game of the 80s.
 

reggiecleveland

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You must have coached tougher players than 1st team all nbaers
Tougher sure. Better no. You think there are not soft guys in the NBA? They are just insanely talented soft guys. Tatum is not nearly as tough as say, Draymond Green, or John Bagley for that matter. He is better though.


I am just trolling the Tatum guys. He didn't even really blink or worry about that swim move from Dray he just kept playing. The Cs lost because Curry was by far the best player. Tatum hopefully learned from it and will be better. Toughnes can be learned, not eveyone is Larry.

Edit: they key guy after Curry was Wiggins who played great D on tatum. Tatum's [performance had everything to do with Wiggins great d, rather than handling pressure etc. Wiggins had, a one time, a much deserved rep as a soft player. I once sent a kid to the national team camp and all the coaches told me he was way tougher than Wiggins, but you know not nearly as good. Wiggins looked tough in the finals though. I never bought toughness was some innate DNA specific thing to the best guy on your team, it develops just like shooting, etc.
 
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Smokey Joe

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Apr 9, 2001
1,229
If I understand your stance correctly, the play in question is a problem despite the fact that the players involved did not complain about it.

I am clearly on an island here but if the professionals aren't complaining, I don't see it as something to discuss. My sense is that the mentality around the league is that if players get away with this sort of thing, their opponents are trained to match that physicality.

Finally, there are no tears here for Draymond Green - he deserves all the criticism he gets - but we have to admit that if we are using the standard of wrong-despite-getting-away-with-it, we have a long line of Celtics agitators that we need to acknowledge.

Winning is beautiful but competition can be ugly.
You don’t see it as something to discuss? It often takes someone from outside of a sport to see the problems that everyone just accepts as “part of the game”. See football and boxing and concussions, bull fighting and animal cruelty. (Though I am sure that the bulls would complain if they could….OTOH, maybe not.)
 

scottyno

late Bloomer
SoSH Member
Dec 7, 2008
11,435
Tougher sure. Better no. You think there are not soft guys in the NBA? They are just insanely talented soft guys. Tatum is not nearly as tough as say, Draymond Green, or John Bagley for that matter. He is better though.
I think you have to be pretty tough to get to the point where you're a top 10 player in your sport
 

Marciano490

Urological Expert
SoSH Member
Nov 4, 2007
62,608
I think you have to be pretty tough to get to the point where you're a top 10 player in your sport
“Toughness” can manifest and vanish in surprising situations. Tyson was probably tough as fuck, but he quit against Evander, Lennox and McBride.

People always look at Ali as insanely gifted - and he was. But, he was tonight than Joe in Manila, tougher than Foreman in Africa and went the distance with Ken Norton after Senior broke is jaw in Round 1.
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
11,191
If I understand your stance correctly, the play in question is a problem despite the fact that the players involved did not complain about it.

I am clearly on an island here but if the professionals aren't complaining, I don't see it as something to discuss. My sense is that the mentality around the league is that if players get away with this sort of thing, their opponents are trained to match that physicality.

Finally, there are no tears here for Draymond Green - he deserves all the criticism he gets - but we have to admit that if we are using the standard of wrong-despite-getting-away-with-it, we have a long line of Celtics agitators that we need to acknowledge.

Winning is beautiful but competition can be ugly.
I think you’re sentence about the mentality in the league is correct but I don’t know about the rest.
It’s incredibly rare for a player to publicly complain about another player being dirty. Especially in a postgame press conference or an attributed quote. If that’s the baseline you’re not going to find many dirty plays.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
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Dec 22, 2002
21,588
I think you’re sentence about the mentality in the league is correct but I don’t know about the rest.
It’s incredibly rare for a player to publicly complain about another player being dirty. Especially in a postgame press conference or an attributed quote. If that’s the baseline you’re not going to find many dirty plays.
Back in the day, it was kind of a compliment. Stockton was known as one of, if not the dirtiest players in the game. Dwyane Wade had that rep among fans, I don't know if he does among players.
 

sezwho

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Jul 20, 2005
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Isle of Plum
Nine years in boxing gyms, and a sucker punch like that, even during light sparring, would be a problem.

Plus, weren’t we all worried about concussions last week?
That move gets you kicked out of the dojo.

It wasn’t a ‘practice skirmish’, it was a significantly larger man instigating a confrontation and immediately escalating with a full extension cheap shot…while at a practice facility.
 
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