Offensive depth chart -- down in the trenches

sodenj5

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Minor note: Allen was a 2 year starter who completed about 56% of his passes. But it sure felt like it was it was below 50% when you watched him!

I am not sure OL is more coachable or not. There is a shortage of OL around the league. Now part of that shortage is that there are not a lot of 6'3"-6'6" 300 pound + humans out there. Probably the biggest part. Another part is that it is damn hard to teach some of this stuff and get them to learn.

One of the things I was going back and forth with Arif on was the ability to learn new physical skills as we age. This was WRT Caedan Wallace but he and I are skeptical he can learn independent use of hands in his age 24-25 season(s). There are so many guys even at the best programs who are two-hand punches and don't know how to use their hands well. Remember how everyone was fawning over Eichenberg from ND a couple of years ago (a few?). Some folks had him as their OT1 or 2 that year. Crazy. I was down on him for multiple reasons but my primary two reasons were lack of length and lack of independent use of hands. He has completely failed to materialize. @sodenj5 correct me if I am wrong here. I don't follow the Fins as closely as I wish I could.
I think there are definitely coaches who are OL gurus and who can develop guys and there are great OL academies like the one run by Duke Manyweather that do the trick too. That being said a lot of OL are coming out older and thus have less ability to develop a new set of tools. Another thing that is tough to adjust is a bad kickslide for vertical pass sets. Guys who overset a lot in college tend to overset a lot in the NFL.

I don't agree or disagree with you because I don't have a comprehensive view of which positions and which traits are hardest to develop. Anecdotally I can tell you guys who came in poor at something and developed it at pretty much every position and trait but that doesn't help because the plural of anecdote is /shrug.

Athleticism is less important to IOL vs OT so it might be easier to develop interior guys. That might be a reasonable take. OTs though have to have a such a high level of athleticism (or be mountains of men) that development is contingent on that.
This is accurate. Eichenberg has been moved around to basically every position, including center last year, and hasn’t looked like anything other than a bad player at every position.
 

chilidawg

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Interesting article about Scott Peters coaching approach. Guys seem like they're buying in to what he's selling. Not too sure about the "it's proven science" part though.

“He’s very technical,” David Andrews said prior to training camp. “I think that’s something that’s been really impressive to me.”

“He’s big about technique,” Chukwuma Okorafor said back in the spring. “I’ve had some coaches in the past whether it’s college or NFL, it’s just run and hit kind of deal. But he’s technique, hands, feet, everything.”

It’s no surprise given Peters’ extensive martial arts background, where he won two Brazilian Jiu Jitsu world championships in submission grappling. Now in his coaching career, Peters has used many of the same techniques he learned from Jiu Jitsu — specifically when it comes to hand usage — to help train his offensive lineman.


https://www.patspulpit.com/2024/8/1/24210455/scott-peters-strike-system-providing-positive-results-in-patriots-offensive-line-room
 

BaseballJones

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I was involved in martial arts for a while when I was in college. I always felt like offensive and defensive linemen who knew martial arts had a big advantage.
 

SMU_Sox

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If you watch sumo wrestling (and I do) you will see almost right away that many of their techniques are almost 1:1 for OL. I am on the mobile and nuked my Twitter but I will find a very good breakdown from a friend on his system. I am incredibly impressed so far.

https://x.com/bellinozee/status/1818432493663440932?s=46&t=kvYWuq6n2wZg-KCGv0fpWg

Not sure why this is not populating…

Edit: sumo isn’t Judo but… a lot of martial arts principles involved.
 

Eddie Jurak

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With Sow apparently having a good camp at LG, and Onwenu mostly playing RG, what do people think happens with Cole Strange if and when he returns? If the Pats were of a mind to kick Onwenu out to T, wouldn't he be playing there more? I'm wondering if Strange would get a look at C and maybe become the heir apparent to David Andrews, who is getting up there in age?
 

SMU_Sox

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Coming out many draft analysts thought his best position was wide zone center based on his build. It is a shame that when they finally go to a favorable scheme for Strange he gets hurt. I wonder if they don’t just sit him for the year (or have to sit him due to injury).
 

Eddie Jurak

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From Mike Reiss:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/40715410/patriots-cb-christian-gonzalez-stephon-gilmore

Mike Onwenu, who signed a three-year, $57 million deal to return to the Patriots in March after playing right tackle last season, hasn't taken a single snap at that spot in training camp. He's been exclusively at right guard despite the Patriots' tackle depth being thinned as of late. Mayo said Saturday that he isn't ready to commit to permanently commit to Onwenu at right guard just yet, noting that it's a decision he'll make by the second preseason game Aug. 15.
Is it possible that the Pats trust Onwenu to kick out to RT whenever they need him, and they have him at RG just to give more reps to the other tackles in order to sort out that situation?
 

chilidawg

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Lazar with a week 2 Trench Report:

Following a strong practice last week, Coach Mayo challenged the Patriots' defense to match the offense's intensity. New England's defensive front, in particular, seemed to get the message. There was very little room to run throughout the day, with short gains and would-be defensive stops. There was also a lot of pressure on the Pats quarterbacks on Monday as the offensive line continued trying different combinations.
With injuries and rookies still growing into roles, the Patriots offensive line relied on veterans Vederian Lowe (left) and Calvin Anderson (right) as their top two offensive tackles. The interior has stabilized with Sidy Sow (LG), David Andrews (C), and Mike Onwenu (RG), but tackle remains an unknown in a scheme that's designed to get the ball on the perimeter.


https://www.patriots.com/news/trench-report-seven-takeaways-from-the-most-physical-practice-yet-for-the-patriots
 

chilidawg

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Lazar's PS1 game film review on the line (there's more than what's quoted here, well worth the read):

Historically, the Patriots were a downhill, gap-heavy offense. However, Van Pelt comes from the wide zone system in a traditional West Coast offense. On Thursday night, New England ran 12 zone runs compared to 11 gap plays, a more balanced approach than expected. Still, we saw plenty of inside and outside zone from Van Pelt, who also mixed in power and trap schemes.

The question mark as the Pats feature more outside zone was always whether their bigger guards, Onwenu (6-3, 344) and Sidy Sow (6-4, 323), could execute the reach blocks on the line of scrimmage to get the run game going. Ultimately, it's two reps in their first preseason game, but it remains on my radar. The Pats should have a productive running game, but AVP might need to pivot to more downhill runs.

Third-round OT Caedan Wallace was up and down. The early hip-opening on his college film looks improved. However, he was slow to anchor twice and whiffed on a run block by ducking his head into contact. His hand technique remains a work in progress. Wallace let rushers into his chest too often, with wide hand placement rather than a stiff inside punch. As a result,
he was having difficulty controlling blocks and standing his ground. Wallace did look better on the right side than at left tackle, so he deserves some grace as he adjusts to the left side. His technique should improve with more reps at LT.

OT Vederian Lowe played 17 snaps with some extended work compared to the other starters on the line. Lowe allowed one quarterback pressure and got beat on a zone block that led to a TFL, but overall, it was better on film than watching live. Lowe's lowlights are rough, but it's not as bad as it seems when you look at the entire sample. He's not prime Joe Thomas, but you'll take this from Lowe if he can cut down on the quick losses.


Rookie G Layden Robinson led all Patriots offensive players with 45 snaps, allowing two hurries on 30 pass-blocking snaps. This was really solid film from Robinson at both guard spots. He generates movement with his combos and pulls, while he had a nifty snatch-trap to end a rep instantly in pass pro. Robinson continues to look the part. You wonder if he sees time with the top unit at RG, with Onwenu kicking out to RT.

https://www.patriots.com/news/after-further-review-breaking-down-drake-maye-and-joe-milton-s-preseason-debuts
 

chilidawg

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Lazar's Roster Projection:

Offensive Line (9): David Andrews, Mike Onwenu, Sidy Sow, Chuks Okorafor, Calvin Anderson, Vederian Lowe, Nick Leverett, Caedan Wallace, Layden Robinson
PUP (1): Cole Strange, Cuts (6): Atonio Mafi, Michael Jordan, Kellen Diesch, Charles Turner, Zuri Henry, Liam Fornadel
The Patriots continue tinkering with their starting tackles in camp, which has put a spotlight on the biggest question mark with their current roster. With each taking "starter" reps in recent practices, Calvin Anderson and Vederian Lowe are front-runners to make the team, along with veteran G/C Nick Leverett in spot-starter/top backup roles. Leverett has been serviceable at guard and center, so you feel good about him being the fourth interior offensive lineman while fourth-rounder Layden Robinson develops.


https://www.patriots.com/news/lazar-s-53-man-roster-projection-2-0-predicting-the-patriots-initial-roster-following-the-preseason-opener
 

chilidawg

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I would not be surprised if they kick Onwenu out.
Seems to make sense, they're deeper in the middle. Even Mafi had a pretty good game at guard in PS1, Leverett has shown well, and some point you've got Strange back. Onwenu at right tackle means you've just got to get competent play out of one of Anderson, Chuks, Lowe and Wallace.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Seems to make sense, they're deeper in the middle. Even Mafi had a pretty good game at guard in PS1, Leverett has shown well, and some point you've got Strange back. Onwenu at right tackle means you've just got to get competent play out of one of Anderson, Chuks, Lowe and Wallace.
My theory, which is based on nothing in particular, is that they wanted to start out by taking a good hard look at all of the tackles (besides Onwenu) since they have less proven depth there, and that once they are ready to start prepping the actual line they will use in season, Onwenu will shift back to T.
 

chilidawg

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The Athletic has an article out on 2nd year breakout candidates and Sow gets a nod on the line:

Sow, a hyper-versatile and athletic big man, was one of my favorite Day 3 picks from the 2023 draft. The 6-4, 325-pounder was a left guard/tackle at Eastern Michigan, then shifted to right guard as a rookie. It wasn’t always pretty, but Sow had some big-time flashes in 13 starts.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5678753/2024/08/13/nfl-2023-draft-will-levis-jayden-reed/
 

chilidawg

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Lazar on the line last night:

After the first drive with Maye at quarterback, the Patriots replaced their starters on the right side with rookies Layden Robinson (RG) and Caedan Wallace (RT). The two rookies are developing well working with the second unit, which has primarily blocked for Maye in practice. New England's best outside zone run, the primary scheme in AVP's offense, came with the mixed line of ones and twos (LT Lowe, LG Sow, C Leverett, RG Robinson, RT Wallace). Lowe and Sow worked the backside combination block well, with Sow working to the second level to create the cutback lane.

The decision to roll with Lowe as the starting left tackle is a bit dubious. He has some shaky reps where he gets beat quickly due to his stiffness and slower feet. On Thursday night, he overset outside with the running back chipping, allowing Nolan Smith inside for a sack. However, Lowe uses his length well and plays with good power, which the coaches seem to like.


https://www.patriots.com/news/game-observations-eight-takeaways-from-the-patriots-second-preseason-game-vs-the-eagles
 

Cellar-Door

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Other than Lowe I thought the line looked pretty decent last night (the guys who'll make the roster). Starting interior guys were good, I thought Robinson, Wallace and Leverett all looked pretty decent for their roles. Okorafor... meh? He held up pretty well at RT in the passblocking sets, but he struggled a bit getting into space.

Left tackle is the problem, the rest of the line is okay-ish.
 

Jinhocho

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I would not be surprised if they kick Onwenu out.
I was listening to the GM Shuffle with Mike Lombardi this morning and be briefly discussed the line and Onwenu this morning. He said they would like to kick him back out to tackle but he gained a ton of weight (80 pounds?) this offseason. Is that even possible?
 

Pesky Pole

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With all the available salary cap, is there a reason the Patriots aren't looking for FA tackle help? Are the available options (like Donovan Jones) bad scheme fits or no better than Lowe? If you might play Maye, wouldn't you want to give him a chance out there.
 

Cellar-Door

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With all the available salary cap, is there a reason the Patriots aren't looking for FA tackle help? Are the available options (like Donovan Jones) bad scheme fits or no better than Lowe? If you might play Maye, wouldn't you want to give him a chance out there.
There is nobody available basically. Lowe has been bad they chose not to shift Okorafar, but both those guys (and probably Wallace) are better players than anyone available.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Other than Lowe I thought the line looked pretty decent last night (the guys who'll make the roster). Starting interior guys were good, I thought Robinson, Wallace and Leverett all looked pretty decent for their roles. Okorafor... meh? He held up pretty well at RT in the passblocking sets, but he struggled a bit getting into space.

Left tackle is the problem, the rest of the line is okay-ish.
I was listening to the GM Shuffle with Mike Lombardi this morning and be briefly discussed the line and Onwenu this morning. He said they would like to kick him back out to tackle but he gained a ton of weight (80 pounds?) this offseason. Is that even possible?
I can't speak to numbers of pounds, but he looked bigger to me. At the same time, Okorafor looked almost like a TE to me. I thought looking at them next to each other maybe my eyes were playing tricks on me.
 

Over Guapo Grande

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There is nobody available basically. Lowe has been bad they chose not to shift Okorafar, but both those guys (and probably Wallace) are better players than anyone available.
Pats are #3 in terms of waiver claims. With only one cutdown, any external options likely won't happen until the end of the month- I don't think that they'd burn a draft pick to get a LT that they would likely be able to get for only cash.
 
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It would be absolutely wild if they end up going with Lowe at LT.

An entire off-season, huge piles of cap space and pretty good draft capital (even assuming 1.3 was always going to be a QB) and they end up sticking with Lowe - who might have actually been the worst tackle in all of football last year?
 

j44thor

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Other than Lowe I thought the line looked pretty decent last night (the guys who'll make the roster). Starting interior guys were good, I thought Robinson, Wallace and Leverett all looked pretty decent for their roles. Okorafor... meh? He held up pretty well at RT in the passblocking sets, but he struggled a bit getting into space.

Left tackle is the problem, the rest of the line is okay-ish.
The NE OL was also blocking mostly PHI 2nd/3rd string DL. They were serviceable but it will be interesting to see how that translates when the games count. Scary to think Lowe was getting whipped even by the 2nd/3rd string guys. We also heard that the NE OL was embarrassed by the PHI starters in practice.
 

Cellar-Door

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The NE OL was also blocking mostly PHI 2nd/3rd string DL. They were serviceable but it will be interesting to see how that translates when the games count. Scary to think Lowe was getting whipped even by the 2nd/3rd string guys. We also heard that the NE OL was embarrassed by the PHI starters in practice.
I'm VERY concerned about the tackles, have no doubt, just noting that the line as a whole looked better against backups last night than they did against backups week 1.
 

Patsfan1983

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There is nobody available basically. Lowe has been bad they chose not to shift Okorafar, but both those guys (and probably Wallace) are better players than anyone available.
Disagree, id probably take most of these guys over Lowe

  • Donovan Smith
  • David Bakhtiari
  • D.J. Humphries
  • Jason Peters
  • Charles Leno
  • Billy Turner
  • Duane Brown
 

Swedgin

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Disagree, id probably take most of these guys over Lowe

  • Donovan Smith
  • David Bakhtiari
  • D.J. Humphries
  • Jason Peters
  • Charles Leno
  • Billy Turner
  • Duane Brown
Bakhtiari, Humphries and Leno are all coming off surgery. Likewise, Brown ended the season on the IR after missing a ton of time. Peters is 42 and has been a part time player the last two years. If those guys could get and stay on the field they would indeed be upgrades . We're not in a position to know where these guys are medically but the fact that they remain free agents at this stage is not a great sign.

Smith has no reported injuries. His play has declined a lot. He was in the bottom quarter of PFF grades last year, but that still might be an improvement on this roster.
 

chilidawg

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Lazar's PS game 2 film review:

- Two things can be true about LT Vederian Lowe: 1. He's being put in a tough spot as the starting left tackle, and 2. The tape is pedestrian but not awful. Until the third-quarter sack, Lowe had a clean sheet, with the only borderline pressure coming when Jacoby Brissett slipped at the top of his drop. He uses his length well to keep defenders at his fingertips, picks up post-snap movement, and maxes out his limited athleticism. I can't stress enough that it's not on Lowe that he's being asked to start at the most important position on the line.
- RT Chuks Okorafor has played with noticeable physicality through two preseason games. He plays a bit high, and his linear build makes him susceptible to power. But he didn't allow a single pressure, and you'll take his overall effort. I'm worried about him handling power against starting-caliber edge rushers, though.
- Rookie OT Caedan Wallace's development is progressing. He is now less of an early hip-opener in his pass sets and has good functional power to anchor and block in the running game. However, Wallace's hand technique needs improvement. His hand carriage is still too wide, and he strikes with a looping motion rather than stiff punches. That makes it harder for him to remain connected to pass-rushers, who get into his body and establish first contact. Wallace will push for playing time once he cleans up his hand technique.


https://www.patriots.com/news/after-further-review-breaking-down-qb-drake-maye-s-preseason-performance-vs-the-eagles
 

chilidawg

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Also this:

- Starting guards Mike Onwenu and Sidy Sow showed much better on this film than they did last week and in the joint practice. Sow got pressed back into the backfield on a third-and-1 play that Rhamondre rescued, but overall was effective in pass protection and had an excellent backside second-level climb on Kevin Harris's 14-yard run. They'll take that from Sow.

This tape wasn't quite as clean for fourth-rounder Layden Robinson as he was late to pick up a stunt that led to pressure on Milton. However, Robinson's play strength and anchoring ability allow him to hold his own. Playing under control with better eyes in pass pro is his final hurdle.

The backup center position is murky when you get past David Andrews, but C/G Nick Leverett is a viable option. You don't want to be down to your third center anyway. Leverett, who hasn't played much center in his NFL career, would do a fine job with more practice reps snapping the football. Still, Andrews is obviously a key piece on the line.
 

Cellar-Door

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Pretty impressive how he's managed to shuttle around some of the worst offensive lines in the league.
Was in CAR... sucked at OT so much they moved him to guard, traded him to TEN for a late round pick swap, started 15 games on arguably the worst line in the league, was so bad they let him walk, ARI signed him to back up their bad OT... he missed most of the season and was terrible when he returned, now he can't make the roster of a team with very thin backup OT spots.....

Maybe the Patriots kick the tires for depth, but he's pretty terrible, definitely worse than Onwenu and Okorafor, less upside than Wallace, and probably worse than Lowe.
 

Pesky Pole

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I know hindsight is 20/20 and scheme fit is also a challenge but it looks like both Rosengarten and Suamataiai are winning starting tackle roles for the Ravens and Chiefs respectively. They went at the absolute end of round two just before the Pats pick in Round 3.
 

streeter88

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Rosengarten is RT, but Suamataia played both RT and LT at BYU. Saw some commentary on him as a swing tackle, but looks like the Chiefs are starting him at LT.

I seem to recall the Pats trying to trade back into Round 2, but not finding a partner. Maybe this is why.
 

Cellar-Door

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https://x.com/BrandonThornNFL/status/1828097307457528046

For a counter to the hysterics.... Brandon is maybe the best respected O-line analyst out there. He's been tweeting Pats this afternoon as he reviews the film. Very big fan of Robinson and thought he did well last night, also noted he's higher on the line than he was before camp, not good, but workable. He thinks they should be running Onwenu/Robinson/Andrews inside but the tackles.... he seems a decent fan of Okorafor as competitive if not good.
 

lexrageorge

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https://x.com/BrandonThornNFL/status/1828097307457528046

For a counter to the hysterics.... Brandon is maybe the best respected O-line analyst out there. He's been tweeting Pats this afternoon as he reviews the film. Very big fan of Robinson and thought he did well last night, also noted he's higher on the line than he was before camp, not good, but workable. He thinks they should be running Onwenu/Robinson/Andrews inside but the tackles.... he seems a decent fan of Okorafor as competitive if not good.
Glad he highlighted his play in Maye's scramble from the end zone to pick up the first on 3rd-and-15. I wasn't paying close attention to the game, but that was one sequence where there was indeed a huge hole in front of Maye created by the OL and Robinson in particular, and Robinson kept his guy occupied so he wasn't able to get over to get Maye from the side.

It was also great vision by Maye to see that there was an enormous amount of space between him and the first down marker.
 

SMU_Sox

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My one issue with Thorn's analysis is the Pats are playing their 1s vs PHL and WAS 2s and 3s. Yes some of it was good, but let's see it vs better competition. One of the points Aaron Schatz and other more analytical folks would tell you is we tend to overstate/overreact to what happens in the preseason. Luckily for the Pats, CIN has a bunch of banged up starters right now on their defensive line.
 

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So let's play "Who's Going to Start Week 1?"

I think that the only thing we know for sure is that Andrews will be the OC.
Onwenu will definitely start, but will he remain at RT or slide back to RG?
I fully expect Sow to start at LG unless that ankle injury is worse than it appears.
Whither Chuks? Stay at LT or back to RT?
Lowe?
Robinson?
 

sezwho

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So let's play "Who's Going to Start Week 1?"

I think that the only thing we know for sure is that Andrews will be the OC.
Onwenu will definitely start, but will he remain at RT or slide back to RG?
I fully expect Sow to start at LG unless that ankle injury is worse than it appears.
Whither Chuks? Stay at LT or back to RT?
Lowe?
Robinson?
Wow, I really wanted to play this game but I have no idea the people or position beyond Andrews at C and Onwenu somewhere on the right. I’m assuming Tackle, as no one else has been even serviceable. So:
Chucks Lowe Andrews Wallace(maybe even someone they just picked off cut list?) Onwenu.

No idea.
 

cshea

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A lot of moving parts between the new guys and the injured guys. Mayo said they dodged a bullet with Sow so maybe he'll be ready to go? Haven't read anything on Lowe, but he hasn't practiced for a while.

If Sow is good to go, I think it'll be:

Okorafor - Sow - Andrews - Robinson - Onwenu

If Sow is out but Lowe is in:

Lowe - Robinson - Andrews - Onwenu - Okorafor
 

Pxer

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If they can get to a line of
Lowe/Sow or Robinson/Andrews/Onwenu/Wallace
where Wallace has beat out Chuks at RT because he's improving, you can be happy with that line and go and get your LT at the top of the draft next year. The line can go from a liability to a strength very quickly by the start of 2025 if one of the rookies makes some decent progress.
 

sezwho

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If they can get to a line of
Lowe/Sow or Robinson/Andrews/Onwenu/Wallace
where Wallace has beat out Chuks at RT because he's improving, you can be happy with that line and go and get your LT at the top of the draft next year. The line can go from a liability to a strength very quickly by the start of 2025 if one of the rookies makes some decent progress.
This makes sense to me as well. Implementing a consistent approach to development and evaluation of lineman (assume this is happening) makes it more likely they find their ceiling as individuals and a unit.

If this remains a proper travishamocracy however, it’s going to be very difficult to look at the resources for the rookie WRs and/or an earlier return from trading Judon (just what the F did they think was going to happen there ?!?) and not think drafting a startable tackle was possible.

In my brain non elite but functional WRs are more fungible than tackles, but maybe that’s not a valid assumption. Still at least 50/50 they are functional as Andrews plus Onwenu side by side could stabilize things. Let’s go!