Offensive depth chart -- down in the trenches

[Saints Rest]

The Pats go into 2024 with perhaps the biggest uncertainty down in the trenches, the offensive line. Scar is not walking through that door.

LT: Ugh. A position so important they made a movie about it. Yet the Pats have not a single known quantity here.

• Calvin Anderson -- perhaps the most experienced LT with a whopping 10 starts at the position over a lackluster 5 year career. Coming off a major illness.
• Chukwuma Okorafor -- a career RT who has been discussed as the presumptive starter entering camp.
• Caedan Wallace -- spent most of his collegiate career at RT as well. But a high draft choice always brings high promise. Can he beat Okorafor in the competition to make the switch from right side to left.
• Ty Wheatley, Vederaian Lowe -- JAGS who might end up on PS

LG: Cole Strange -- maybe starts season on PUP? Otherwise, presumptive starter. If Strange isn't ready, do we see the rookie, Layden Robinson joining CW in an all-rookie left side????

C: David Andrews -- long-time starter and team captain and leader. Last year wasn't his best. A blip caused by chaos everywhere or the beginning of the end?

RG: Sidy Sow spent most of the season as the starter here and will likely begin this year in that same spot.

RT: Mike Onwenu earned the big contract to lock down this position for the next few years. Let's hope he can live up to it. I think he will.

IOL Depth: Jake Andrews, Atonio Mafi, Michael Jordan, Charles Turner. The former two are incumbents and recent draft picks.

OT Depth: Those noted above in the LT poo-poo platter (pun intended) plus some guy named Zuri Henry.

My guess is that they keep 9: the two Andrews, Sow, Mafi, Strange, Onwenu, Anderson, and the two rookies. Strange starting on PUP would open up at least one more spot. Likely 3-4 guys on PS.

I would expect a veteran to be added as FA or a trade, but likely just for depth.

 

[Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt]

Seems extremely likely that Strange will start the season on PUP. I don't expect to see him on the field until mid-season.

 

[pjheff]

LG: Cole Strange -- maybe starts season on PUP? Otherwise, presumptive starter. If Strange isn't ready, do we see the rookie, Layden Robinson joining CW in an all-rookie left side????

Or Mafi perhaps with a year under his belt?

 

[Saints Rest]

Or Mafi perhaps with a year under his belt?

For sure. Or perhaps J Andrews.

 

[mcpickl]

The Pats go into 2024 with perhaps the biggest uncertainty down in the trenches, the offensive line. Scar is not walking through that door.

LT: Ugh. A position so important they made a movie about it. Yet the Pats have not a single known quantity here.

• Calvin Anderson -- perhaps the most experienced LT with a whopping 10 starts at the position over a lackluster 5 year career. Coming off a major illness.
• Chukwuma Okorafor -- a career RT who has been discussed as the presumptive starter entering camp.
• Caedan Wallace -- spent most of his collegiate career at RT as well. But a high draft choice always brings high promise. Can he beat Okorafor in the competition to make the switch from right side to left.
• Ty Wheatley, Vederaian Lowe -- JAGS who might end up on PS

LG: Cole Strange -- maybe starts season on PUP? Otherwise, presumptive starter. If Strange isn't ready, do we see the rookie, Layden Robinson joining CW in an all-rookie left side????

C: David Andrews -- long-time starter and team captain and leader. Last year wasn't his best. A blip caused by chaos everywhere or the beginning of the end?

RG: Sidy Sow spent most of the season as the starter here and will likely begin this year in that same spot.

RT: Mike Onwenu earned the big contract to lock down this position for the next few years. Let's hope he can live up to it. I think he will.

IOL Depth: Jake Andrews, Atonio Mafi, Michael Jordan, Charles Turner. The former two are incumbents and recent draft picks.

OT Depth: Those noted above in the LT poo-poo platter (pun intended) plus some guy named Zuri Henry.

My guess is that they keep 9: the two Andrews, Sow, Mafi, Strange, Onwenu, Anderson, and the two rookies. Strange starting on PUP would open up at least one more spot. Likely 3-4 guys on PS.

I would expect a veteran to be added as FA or a trade, but likely just for depth.

Sidy Sow was playing with the first unit at LG last week with Nick Leverett at RG.

Maybe they're just experimenting but Sow played LG in college. He's a possibility there.

 

[SMU_Sox]

Mafi and Jake Andrews at LG? Not sure either guy is a scheme fit. Especially Mafi. Andrews is really much more of an OC.

The OL makes me queasy. I don't think we really have starters let alone depth at LT and LG if Strange is out. Relying on a 3rd and 4th round rookie who were both thought of as like day 3 prospects seems super risky. Chuks was a below average RT. You rarely can bargain shop for OL but yet here we are. My biggest concern this year is the OL derails the offense.

 

[tims4wins]

This from Reiss on Sunday

8. Mafi at center: Atonio Mafi, the 2023 fifth-round pick from UCLA, took snaps at center behind starter David Andrews in the lone organized team activity open to reporters last week. Mafi converted from defensive line to offensive line in college, starting 13 games at left guard and three at right guard, so his presence in the pivot (in addition to later working at guard) stood out as a new wrinkle under first-year line coaches Scott Peters and Robert Kugler. Mafi made five starts as a rookie in New England, all at left guard.

 

[SMU_Sox]

I saw that and interpreted it as Mafi is on the roster bubble.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Mafi and Jake Andrews at LG? Not sure either guy is a scheme fit. Especially Mafi. Andrews is really much more of an OC.

The OL makes me queasy. I don't think we really have starters let alone depth at LT and LG if Strange is out. Relying on a 3rd and 4th round rookie who were both thought of as like day 3 prospects seems super risky. Chuks was a below average RT. You rarely can bargain shop for OL but yet here we are. My biggest concern this year is the OL derails the offense.

It has been a problem for a few years now, and I'm probably going to poop all over the forum again about how the team doesn't allocate enough financial and draft capital to offensive linemen. For the life of me, I don't know why Paul wasn't the pick in the second. I think that they could have traded down from 34 and picked up two of Paul, Suamataia, Fisher in the second and still have had a crack at Burton, Wilson, etc. in the third. SSDD.

One again, we're relying on coaching wizardry, guys exceeding expectations, and magical injury luck.

 

[SMU_Sox]

It has been a problem for a few years now, and I'm probably going to poop all over the forum again about how the team doesn't allocate enough financial and draft capital to offensive linemen. For the life of me, I don't know why Paul wasn't the pick in the second. I think that they could have traded down from 34 and picked up two of Paul, Suamataia, Fisher in the second and still have had a crack at Burton, Wilson, etc. in the third. SSDD.

One again, we're relying on coaching wizardry, guys exceeding expectations, and magical injury luck.

Yeah, I hear ya there. We are on the same page. It's really hard to find a LT though outside of round 1. If any position was getting shortchanged if we went QB it was that one. Still, it's not like we know for sure yet if Onwenu is actually going to work out long term at RT. Or heck if we need Onwenu at OG because we don't have sure-thing starters there! I know we think we do but it's no guarantee. So getting a higher quality OT prospect would have been nice.

It would be great if by end of season if we had 3-4 spots locked up and David Andrews didn't regress and also stayed healthy. This was always going to be a 2-3 year rebuild. Maybe we get lucky. We have a bunch of day 3 guys + bargain bin FAs + Caedan Wallace so hopefully RG, LG, and LT can at least not be dumpster fires this year.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Yeah, I hear ya there. We are on the same page. It's really hard to find a LT though outside of round 1. If any position was getting shortchanged if we went QB it was that one. Still, it's not like we know for sure yet if Onwenu is actually going to work out long term at RT. Or heck if we need Onwenu at OG because we don't have sure-thing starters there! I know we think we do but it's no guarantee. So getting a higher quality OT prospect would have been nice.

It would be great if by end of season if we had 3-4 spots locked up and David Andrews didn't regress and also stayed healthy. This was always going to be a 2-3 year rebuild. Maybe we get lucky. We have a bunch of day 3 guys + bargain bin FAs + Caedan Wallace so hopefully RG, LG, and LT can at least not be dumpster fires this year.

I feel ok that we're beyond dumpster fire status. And you do well reminding me (us) that it wasn't going to be a problem completely solved in year one of the rebuild, thanks. I feel ok about Mike as a functional RT/plus RG eventually. Everything else is a bit of a crapshoot, and we'll know more by October.

 

[SMU_Sox]

I am not sure we are beyond dumpster fire status at LT or LG pending no Strange. I hope we are! I think we are! Do I feel ok about that? No. LG I feel ok we can figure it out. LT though? Vibes = bad.

 

[CoolPapaLaSchelle]

Yeah, I hear ya there. We are on the same page. It's really hard to find a LT though outside of round 1. If any position was getting shortchanged if we went QB it was that one. Still, it's not like we know for sure yet if Onwenu is actually going to work out long term at RT. Or heck if we need Onwenu at OG because we don't have sure-thing starters there! I know we think we do but it's no guarantee. So getting a higher quality OT prospect would have been nice.

It would be great if by end of season if we had 3-4 spots locked up and David Andrews didn't regress and also stayed healthy. This was always going to be a 2-3 year rebuild. Maybe we get lucky. We have a bunch of day 3 guys + bargain bin FAs + Caedan Wallace so hopefully RG, LG, and LT can at least not be dumpster fires this year.

@SMU_Sox - really appreciate your insights generally and on the OL specifically. What do you think about minimizing volatility by putting Onwenu back at guard and running with a line of Chuks at RT, Onwenu at RG, Andrews at C, Sow at LG, and Wallace/flotsam at LT? Obviously, that last bit is a huge problem, but the advantage would be that everyone else is more or less in their best position. Thx in advance for your thoughts.

 

[Jimbodandy]

I am not sure we are beyond dumpster fire status at LT or LG pending no Strange. I hope we are! I think we are! Do I feel ok about that? No. LG I feel ok we can figure it out. LT though? Vibes = bad.

We have a lot riding on their evaluations of Wallace and Robinson. They have to hit on at least one.

 

[mcpickl]

Mafi and Jake Andrews at LG? Not sure either guy is a scheme fit. Especially Mafi. Andrews is really much more of an OC.

The OL makes me queasy. I don't think we really have starters let alone depth at LT and LG if Strange is out. Relying on a 3rd and 4th round rookie who were both thought of as like day 3 prospects seems super risky. Chuks was a below average RT. You rarely can bargain shop for OL but yet here we are. My biggest concern this year is the OL derails the offense.

I still think there's going to be a significant add to the OL before the season starts. Whether by trade (Garrett Bolles?) or a signing. Maybe someone becomes available once June 1st hits and teams can spread the cap hits on a trade over two seasons? Or they're waiting on one of the injured guys that are still free agents to show some recovery before signing them.

I just don't believe with the mountain of cap space they have available they are ready to roll into the season with Okorafor at LT and question marks next to him at LG with Strange out for quite a while.

Even if they made an add at RT, maybe Conklin gets cut/traded?, and kicked Onwenu in to RG and Sow to LG, it would at least have them down to one glaring hole on the line.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

It has been a problem for a few years now, and I'm probably going to poop all over the forum again about how the team doesn't allocate enough financial and draft capital to offensive linemen. For the life of me, I don't know why Paul wasn't the pick in the second. I think that they could have traded down from 34 and picked up two of Paul, Suamataia, Fisher in the second and still have had a crack at Burton, Wilson, etc. in the third. SSDD.

One again, we're relying on coaching wizardry, guys exceeding expectations, and magical injury luck.

Well it’s interesting because in the Belichick (and now Wolf) era, the Pats spent a higher % of draft picks on OL than any team other than the Chargers. Since 2010, they’re #1 in overall % of picks spent on OL. But it’s a lot of picks after pick 100. They’re dead last in % of picks top 100 on OL since 2010 (tied with a bunch of teams for absolute # with 6).

Part of that though is that they had a run of excellent (and fairly well paid) centers, left tackles and guards. A lot of the teams drafting OL early and often need elite guards or LT and the Pats haven’t had a huge need for those.

I do agree they should have spent more high picks on guys after the Wynn pick. But there were so many holes to try to fix, and limited # of premium picks. If they had invested more top 75 picks in OL, someone would have argued they should have spent more picks on fixing QB, WR, DT etc

I hate the way they’ve approached OL the last 2 seasons specifically though.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Well it’s interesting because in the Belichick (and now Wolf) era, the Pats spent a higher % of draft picks on OL than any team other than the Chargers. Since 2010, they’re #1 in overall % of picks spent on OL. But it’s a lot of picks after pick 100. They’re dead last in % of picks top 100 on OL since 2010 (tied with a bunch of teams for absolute # with 6).

Part of that though is that they had a run of excellent (and fairly well paid) centers, left tackles and guards. A lot of the teams drafting OL early and often need elite guards or LT and the Pats haven’t had a huge need for those.

I do agree they should have spent more high picks on guys after the Wynn pick. But there were so many holes to try to fix, and limited # of premium picks. If they had invested more top 75 picks in OL, someone would have argued they should have spent more picks on fixing QB, WR, DT etc

I hate the way they’ve approached OL the last 2 seasons specifically though.

It's really only the last few drafts for me, not in toto. And while I realize that C and OG are important, I'm more disappointed at our recent resource allocation at OT, both FA and draft (or lack thereof).

 

[SMU_Sox]

For me the issue is not the number of picks but the draft capital. I am all for throwing darts at IOL day 3. All for it. You can find plenty of starters there.

OT though is a different beast. You can't skimp there. Like @Jimbodandy said I am also disappointed at our recent resource allocation at OT.

 

[Saints Rest]

Well it’s interesting because in the Belichick (and now Wolf) era, the Pats spent a higher % of draft picks on OL than any team other than the Chargers. Since 2010, they’re #1 in overall % of picks spent on OL. But it’s a lot of picks after pick 100. They’re dead last in % of picks top 100 on OL since 2010 (tied with a bunch of teams for absolute # with 6).

Part of that though is that they had a run of excellent (and fairly well paid) centers, left tackles and guards. A lot of the teams drafting OL early and often need elite guards or LT and the Pats haven’t had a huge need for those.

I do agree they should have spent more high picks on guys after the Wynn pick. But there were so many holes to try to fix, and limited # of premium picks. If they had invested more top 75 picks in OL, someone would have argued they should have spent more picks on fixing QB, WR, DT etc

I hate the way they’ve approached OL the last 2 seasons specifically though.

His name was Dante. That is the reason that the Pats could regularly turn mid-round picks (or later, including UDFAs) into excellent linemen. Kopek, Hochstein, Connolly, Neal, Cannon, Mason.

 

[sezwho]

@SMU_Sox - really appreciate your insights generally and on the OL specifically. What do you think about minimizing volatility by putting Onwenu back at guard and running with a line of Chuks at RT, Onwenu at RG, Andrews at C, Sow at LG, and Wallace/flotsam at LT? Obviously, that last bit is a huge problem, but the advantage would be that everyone else is more or less in their best position. Thx in advance for your thoughts.

Just to pile on - don’t post too often in the Pats threads but I haven’t missed a game (from basement mostly for decades. I always read your posts and particularly your line play ones.. Carry on…/perk

His name was Dante. That is the reason that the Pats could regularly turn mid-round picks (or later, including UDFAs) into excellent linemen. Kopek, Hochstein, Connolly, Neal, Cannon, Mason.

Simply can’t emphasize enough the role he played in the run of Super Bowls. Should add Brown to that list as well, pretty sure he was the last to get a full season from him. Trent himself credits Scar explicitly - fwiw

 

[Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt]

Regardless of what reasonably happens this year, the Patriot are staring down one of the top LT's with a top 10 pick in the 2025 NFL draft.

 

[bakahump]

I know i am not getting a Birthday card from Jacoby, but I am really looking for the line to be"good enough" to keep Brissett upright and starting all season. Give me another top 10 pick (OL/LT/WR) next year and years worth of experience (in practice and the QB room) for Drake.
They are gonna suck/struggle.....so just Keep JB available so Drake doesnt have to contend with it.

 

[SMU_Sox]

@SMU_Sox - really appreciate your insights generally and on the OL specifically. What do you think about minimizing volatility by putting Onwenu back at guard and running with a line of Chuks at RT, Onwenu at RG, Andrews at C, Sow at LG, and Wallace/flotsam at LT? Obviously, that last bit is a huge problem, but the advantage would be that everyone else is more or less in their best position. Thx in advance for your thoughts.

Lets see how defenses adjust to Onwenu this year at RT. He might be fine, he might start to show some cracks. It's such a balancing act. Onwenu is their best OL and it is a matter of if they can be serviceable at left and right guard. Chuks is going to give you below average right tackle play but it won't be a disaster level. So if it turns out that one of their OGs is a disaster it might be the best move.

This is cliche but get your best 5 out there at this point...

 

[Auger34]

Regardless of what reasonably happens this year, the Patriot are staring down one of the top LT's with a top 10 pick in the 2025 NFL draft.

And from what I've seen it looks like there are 2 premium LT prospects worthy of a top 5-10 pick: Will Campbell from LSU and Kelvin Banks from Texas

 

[Cellar-Door]

I saw that and interpreted it as Mafi is on the roster bubble.

I thought that the moment they drafted Robinson after signing Leverett and Jordan

 

[SMU_Sox]

I thought that the moment they drafted Robinson after signing Leverett and Jordan

We both probably thought that the minute we saw him play last year.

I liked Mafi as a fit too... I just had a UDFA or 7th round kind of grade on him. Same for Jake Andrews.

 

[dynomite]

Regardless of what reasonably happens this year, the Patriot are staring down one of the top LT's with a top 10 pick in the 2025 NFL draft.

And from what I've seen it looks like there are 2 premium LT prospects worthy of a top 5-10 pick: Will Campbell from LSU and Kelvin Banks from Texas

Right, and this is why I keep banging the drum that I want Brissett to be the sacrificial lamb and treat the 2024 season like the 2000 season. Others (including @DJnVa) point out that some QB prospects need playing time to develop, and obviously we can't judge whether Maye is one of those. But behind a suspect OL and with plenty of compelling examples of rookies who seemed to benefit from a year on the bench (Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, Lamar to an extent, etc.) I'm fine writing off this season.

To continue the 2000 theme, I wouldn't mind if they drafted a Hall of Famer at #6 overall next spring (and a Patriots Hall of Famer in the 2nd round), even if it means missing out on David Terrell!

 

[Jimbodandy]

Right, and this is why I keep banging the drum that I want Brissett to be the sacrificial lamb and treat the 2024 season like the 2000 season. Others (including @DJnVa) point out that some QB prospects need playing time to develop, and obviously we can't judge whether Maye is one of those. But behind a suspect OL and with plenty of compelling examples of rookies who seemed to benefit from a year on the bench (Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, Lamar to an extent, etc.) I'm fine writing off this season.

To continue the 2000 theme, I wouldn't mind if they drafted a Hall of Famer at #6 overall next spring (and a Patriots Hall of Famer in the 2nd round), even if it means missing out on David Terrell!

The season is a write-off either way. Nobody thinks that they're a contender. That doesn't mean that Brissett has to start 17 games. That really depends on the OL and overall usefulness of the offense. But yeah, it would be better for all fans to realize that Maye won't be a day 1 starter and may not be a starter this year at all, depending on circumstances. Keep the "we're back!" flags in their garages.

 

[dynomite]

The season is a write-off either way. Nobody thinks that they're a contender. That doesn't mean that Brissett has to start 17 games. That really depends on the OL and overall usefulness of the offense. But yeah, it would be better for all fans to realize that Maye won't be a day 1 starter and may not be a starter this year at all, depending on circumstances. Keep the "we're back!" flags in their garages.

It sounds like we agree. I'm sure as the season approaches there will be at least one brave soul who tries to "You know, IF..." their way to arguing the Pats could win 9 games. Won't be me, though. This team is the underdog in every game right now for a reason.

And I would be surprised if Brissett stays healthy for 17 games, especially behind this OL, so I expect to see Maye at some point. I'm just not in a rush to see him.

 

[Jimbodandy]

It sounds like we agree. I'm sure as the season approaches there will be at least one brave soul who tries to "You know, IF..." their way to arguing the Pats could win 9 games. Won't be me, though. This team is the underdog in every game right now for a reason.

And I would be surprised if Brissett stays healthy for 17 games, especially behind this OL, so I expect to see Maye at some point. I'm just not in a rush to see him.

If they win 9 games, great. Would make people feel warm inside, but not the objective. It's a 2-year rebuild from 4-13 if everything goes right.

 

[dynomite]

If they win 9 games, great. Would make people feel warm inside, but not the objective. It's a 2-year rebuild from 4-13 if everything goes right.

Exactly. And getting a high draft pick in every round in 2025 is helpful to the cause. I hope Polk and Baker both look incredible and Wallace looks like a steal and Maye shows up in December and has back-to-back 400 yard games... as the team goes 4-13.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Exactly. And getting a high draft pick in every round in 2025 is helpful to the cause. I hope Polk and Baker both look incredible and Wallace looks like a steal and Maye shows up in December and has back-to-back 400 yard games... as the team goes 4-13.

And at the end of the day, even if that pick becomes #13 instead of #3, it's still a great pick. Improvement, reasons for hope--that should be our goal this year.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Way wrong thread

 

[rodderick]

The only way Maye doesn't start at all this year is if he's a bust. QBs picked that high don't sit, especially not if the starter is a journeyman on a one year deal. Mac Jones made us too attached to this idea that QBs can be ruined and I'm 99% sure he just sucks (and even in his case playing early didn't harm his development in the slightest). I still don't anticipate Maye being a day one starter, but he'll get at least six games.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

We have the brain trust that sat Aaron Rodgers for 48 games. Granted he was drafted at #24 and not #3, but he's also better than the vast majority of QBs taken at the top of the draft. The aren't going to throw Maye to the wolves, whatever that may mean this year.

As to the LT depth chart, I think the LT of last resort is pretty obviously Mike Onwenu. He's played there a bit before and he is obviously the best OL on the roster. They don't want to do that, so they are using OTAs and minicamp, etc, to evaluate all of their other options. But if they decide that none of them are up to it, and they cannot add someone else before training camp (which they will also try to do), then Onwenu will wind up with the job.

 

[Justthetippett]

This management team might as well go all in on Mate early because their future hinges on whether he succeeds in any case. I don't really buy the Rodgers analogy because of the disparity between Brissett and Favre and where this team is. Really not a comparable situation.

The only scenario I see where Maye doesn't start by Week 6 are team success with Brissett (4-1 or something very unexpected) or a broken O-line where they don't want to risk it, in which case Brissett might even be out anyways, and then Maye could get dinged leading to a real shitshow of a season. I think they will regret not doing more to reinforce the line when this year is said and done.

 

[rodderick]

We have the brain trust that sat Aaron Rodgers for 48 games. Granted he was drafted at #24 and not #3, but he's also better than the vast majority of QBs taken at the top of the draft. The aren't going to throw Maye to the wolves, whatever that may mean this year.

As to the LT depth chart, I think the LT of last resort is pretty obviously Mike Onwenu. He's played there a bit before and he is obviously the best OL on the roster. They don't want to do that, so they are using OTAs and minicamp, etc, to evaluate all of their other options. But if they decide that none of them are up to it, and they cannot add someone else before training camp (which they will also try to do), then Onwenu will wind up with the job.

Aaron Rodgers sat for 48 games because the Packers had a HoF QB and were in playoff contention. Rodgers was also picked in the 20's. It's not even comparable. I don't even think Mahomes is an analogue.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Aaron Rodgers sat for 48 games because the Packers had a HoF QB and were in playoff contention. Rodgers was also picked in the 20's. It's not even comparable. I don't even think Mahomes is an analogue.

I'm not predicting that Maye will have to wait for 3 years, for obvious reasons. I just don't think if Maye sits this whole year it is because he is a bust. There are plenty of top 3 or higher picks who have been busts and also plenty of very good QBs who have had redshirt years, including several of those who are considered among the best to have ever played.

 

[mcpickl]

We have the brain trust that sat Aaron Rodgers for 48 games. Granted he was drafted at #24 and not #3, but he's also better than the vast majority of QBs taken at the top of the draft. The aren't going to throw Maye to the wolves, whatever that may mean this year.

As to the LT depth chart, I think the LT of last resort is pretty obviously Mike Onwenu. He's played there a bit before and he is obviously the best OL on the roster. They don't want to do that, so they are using OTAs and minicamp, etc, to evaluate all of their other options. But if they decide that none of them are up to it, and they cannot add someone else before training camp (which they will also try to do), then Onwenu will wind up with the job.

Onwenu hasn't played a snap at LT in either the NFL or college. (at least according to PFF)

The Patriots, although under Belichick, didn't even like him at LG.

I feel pretty safe thinking he's going to be on the right side.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Onwenu hasn't played a snap at LT in either the NFL or college. (at least according to PFF)

The Patriots, although under Belichick, didn't even like him at LG.

I feel pretty safe thinking he's going to be on the right side.

OK, I thought he had played both sides, I guess only at LG. I still think that if push comes to shove, he's the LT of last resort.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

I'm not predicting that Maye will have to wait for 3 years, for obvious reasons. I just don't think if Maye sits this whole year it is because he is a bust. There are plenty of top 3 or higher picks who have been busts and also plenty of very good QBs who have had redshirt years, including several of those who are considered among the best to have ever played.

There aren’t many very good QB’s who had a “redshirt” year when the guy ahead of him on the depth chart is mediocre or bad. Favre behind Chris Miller in Atlanta maybe, but the Falcons (and Miller) were playing pretty well at the time. McNair behind Chris Chandler would be probably the best example. Carson Palmer behind Jon Kitna though Kitna was solid in 2003. Culpepper was behind George and Cunningham and the Vikings were a playoff team

You have your late bloomers (Steve Young, Schaub, Romo, Warner) but they’re different situations than Maye.

Rivers was behind Brees, Rodgers behind Favre, Mahomes behind Smith (coming off an excellent stretch of play), Eli Manning behind Warner (and played a lot his rookie year anyway), Love behind Rodgers, etc.

From 1994-2023, there were 79 1st round QB drafted. Only 19 of them threw under 100 passes their rookie year. They are the aforementioned Mahomes, Love, Rodgers, Rivers, Palmer, McNair and Culpepper. Then you have a a whole bunch of mediocre to bad QBs, Pennington, Grossman, Druckenmiller, Losman, Campbell, Russell, Quinn, Tebow, Locker, Manziel, Lynch, Lance

So really the only example that fits the current situation - highly drafted QB behind mediocre/bad QB on a non-playoff contender who had NFL success is Steve McNair in 1995.

Unless Brissett is way better than he’s shown to date, the Pats are somehow in playoff contention (probably due to Brissett playing out of his mind) or Maye just sucks, he will not be sitting the full year based on historical precedent.

I like Brissett but he’s a below average starting QB. It would be almost unheard of for Maye to sit behind him all year. Half the year? Sure that’s possible. But if Maye is healthy and not starting by November, either the Pats are wildly over performing their expectations somehow with Brissett or Maye looks really bad.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

As of minicamp, they are apparently not looking at Wallace at LT anymore.

https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2024/06/10/bedard-observations-from-patriots-minicamp-practice-no-1---defense-mostly-smothers-offense-in-team

The line depth chart:

LT: Chuck Okorafor/Calvin Anderson/Tyrone Wheatley
LG: Sidy Sow/Michael Jordan/Ryan Johnson
C: David Andrews/Atonio Mafi/Charles Turner
RG: Nick Leverett/Layden Robinson/Robinson
RT: Mike Onwenu/Caeden Wallace/Verderian Lowe

 

[Garshaparra]

As of minicamp, they are apparently not looking at Wallace at LT anymore.

https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2024/06/10/bedard-observations-from-patriots-minicamp-practice-no-1---defense-mostly-smothers-offense-in-team

Jake Andrews isn't on the C depth chart at all? Is he not in camp for some reason?

 

[Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt]

From what I've heard, they're moving guys around, trying them in different spots. Maybe not so willy-nilly as that, but certainly this isn't the END of where they had been trying players.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Jake Andrews isn't on the C depth chart at all? Is he not in camp for some reason?

There but not participating I think.

 

[mauf]

There aren’t many very good QB’s who had a “redshirt” year when the guy ahead of him on the depth chart is mediocre or bad. Favre behind Chris Miller in Atlanta maybe, but the Falcons (and Miller) were playing pretty well at the time. McNair behind Chris Chandler would be probably the best example. Carson Palmer behind Jon Kitna though Kitna was solid in 2003. Culpepper was behind George and Cunningham and the Vikings were a playoff team

You have your late bloomers (Steve Young, Schaub, Romo, Warner) but they’re different situations than Maye.

Rivers was behind Brees, Rodgers behind Favre, Mahomes behind Smith (coming off an excellent stretch of play), Eli Manning behind Warner (and played a lot his rookie year anyway), Love behind Rodgers, etc.

From 1994-2023, there were 79 1st round QB drafted. Only 19 of them threw under 100 passes their rookie year. They are the aforementioned Mahomes, Love, Rodgers, Rivers, Palmer, McNair and Culpepper. Then you have a a whole bunch of mediocre to bad QBs, Pennington, Grossman, Druckenmiller, Losman, Campbell, Russell, Quinn, Tebow, Locker, Manziel, Lynch, Lance

So really the only example that fits the current situation - highly drafted QB behind mediocre/bad QB on a non-playoff contender who had NFL success is Steve McNair in 1995.

Unless Brissett is way better than he’s shown to date, the Pats are somehow in playoff contention (probably due to Brissett playing out of his mind) or Maye just sucks, he will not be sitting the full year based on historical precedent.

I like Brissett but he’s a below average starting QB. It would be almost unheard of for Maye to sit behind him all year. Half the year? Sure that’s possible. But if Maye is healthy and not starting by November, either the Pats are wildly over performing their expectations somehow with Brissett or Maye looks really bad.

Thanks for the knowledge.

Josh Allen would’ve sat his first year, except presumptive starter AJ McCarron got hurt and backup Nathan Peterman was unbelievably bad. But Allen was a one-year starter at Wyoming who completed less than half his college passes. Steve McNair was an FCS guy (Alcorn State). It would be unusual for a guy like Maye (multiyear starter for a P5 program, drafted early by a bad team without an established starter) not to get extended play as a rookie.

I think O-line is more coachable than other positions in the NFL — the differences in talent aren’t nearly as large as they are in lower levels of the game, so good technique and chemistry are difference-makers. So I’m viewing their ability or inability to coax adequate play out of this motley crew as an early test of Mayo and his staff.

 

[Garshaparra]

There but not participating I think.

Any reason specified? This guy is turning out to be the Robinson Checo of the 2023-2024 Pats.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Thanks for the knowledge.

Josh Allen would’ve sat his first year, except presumptive starter AJ McCarron got hurt and backup Nathan Peterman was unbelievably bad. But Allen was a one-year starter at Wyoming who completed less than half his college passes. Steve McNair was an FCS guy (Alcorn State). It would be unusual for a guy like Maye (multiyear starter for a P5 program, drafted early by a bad team without an established starter) not to get extended play as a rookie.

I think O-line is more coachable than other positions in the NFL — the differences in talent aren’t nearly as large as they are in lower levels of the game, so good technique and chemistry are difference-makers. So I’m viewing their ability or inability to coax adequate play out of this motley crew as an early test of Mayo and his staff.

I would find it very strange if Maye didn't start any games this year. But I would find it strange if he starts any September games too. This line looks like another shitfest. If it isn't, maybe the kid sees the field sooner than later. But I hope that they don't forcefeed him into Max Max Beyond Thunderdome just because of draft slot.

 

[DJnVa]

Bro, don't hurt him!

 

[SMU_Sox]

Thanks for the knowledge.

Josh Allen would’ve sat his first year, except presumptive starter AJ McCarron got hurt and backup Nathan Peterman was unbelievably bad. But Allen was a one-year starter at Wyoming who completed less than half his college passes. Steve McNair was an FCS guy (Alcorn State). It would be unusual for a guy like Maye (multiyear starter for a P5 program, drafted early by a bad team without an established starter) not to get extended play as a rookie.

I think O-line is more coachable than other positions in the NFL — the differences in talent aren’t nearly as large as they are in lower levels of the game, so good technique and chemistry are difference-makers. So I’m viewing their ability or inability to coax adequate play out of this motley crew as an early test of Mayo and his staff.

Minor note: Allen was a 2 year starter who completed about 56% of his passes. But it sure felt like it was it was below 50% when you watched him!

I am not sure OL is more coachable or not. There is a shortage of OL around the league. Now part of that shortage is that there are not a lot of 6'3"-6'6" 300 pound + humans out there. Probably the biggest part. Another part is that it is damn hard to teach some of this stuff and get them to learn.

One of the things I was going back and forth with Arif on was the ability to learn new physical skills as we age. This was WRT Caedan Wallace but he and I are skeptical he can learn independent use of hands in his age 24-25 season(s). There are so many guys even at the best programs who are two-hand punches and don't know how to use their hands well. Remember how everyone was fawning over Eichenberg from ND a couple of years ago (a few?). Some folks had him as their OT1 or 2 that year. Crazy. I was down on him for multiple reasons but my primary two reasons were lack of length and lack of independent use of hands. He has completely failed to materialize. @sodenj5 correct me if I am wrong here. I don't follow the Fins as closely as I wish I could.
I think there are definitely coaches who are OL gurus and who can develop guys and there are great OL academies like the one run by Duke Manyweather that do the trick too. That being said a lot of OL are coming out older and thus have less ability to develop a new set of tools. Another thing that is tough to adjust is a bad kickslide for vertical pass sets. Guys who overset a lot in college tend to overset a lot in the NFL.

I don't agree or disagree with you because I don't have a comprehensive view of which positions and which traits are hardest to develop. Anecdotally I can tell you guys who came in poor at something and developed it at pretty much every position and trait but that doesn't help because the plural of anecdote is /shrug.

Athleticism is less important to IOL vs OT so it might be easier to develop interior guys. That might be a reasonable take. OTs though have to have a such a high level of athleticism (or be mountains of men) that development is contingent on that.