Gruden was talking about 95 link up on the outside if he senses an advantage. Something to keep an eye on
Offensive depth chart -- down in the trenches
- Thread starter Saints Rest
- Start date
Onwenu has been the worst OL tonight, he looks fat and slow out there. Probably no other option this year, but next year he can't be a tacke.
It’s a freak-off between him and Wallace because so far they have both been getting fucked all night.
Yup. Some awful tackle play, both getting abused. The interior line has been mostly OK/normal.
this has been the under the radar concerning thing for me this year
I expected the other issues but Onwenu being a turnstile at RT is really disappointing. I guess they’ll need to kick him inside but that means they need 2 new tackles next year (assuming Wallace doesn’t step up) and they couldn’t find even half of one this last offseason so I’m not optimistic
I also don’t think it’s a lock they take Campbell or Banks if they’re drafting top 3. Don’t think either of those guys are top 5 guys in the draft and I’m not sold on either of them being Alt-esque in their ability to be a good bet to walk in and be a day 1 starter at LT. Long way to go until April obviously but I could see them going edge or BPA (non QB) like Graham or Hunter.
OK, so that was grim.
I was trying to remember the last time I had Super Bowl 20 flashbacks. It's been a while.
...
Thinking out loud here as much as talking to y'all...
For a football team to remain competitive and look good, every unit has to play at a certain baseline competency, above a certain floor. If they're not, then it becomes way too easy for the other team to exploit that somehow. And then a different group-- that might have been fine otherwise-- gets overwhelmed. And then the whole thing can go down like a line of dominoes, each knocking over the next.
Last night the combination of-- (i) our tackles being turnstiles, (ii) seeming confusion on scheme and/or communication-- resulted in way too many defenders coming in unblocked. Part of this is story of a unit without much talent losing its depth, so that guys who looked better in a supporting role look worse in a more important role. Caedan did a really good job of run blocking in weeks 1 and 2 out of those power sets where he was an extra lineman lined up outside the RT. But, obviously, that's different than starting at LT for the first time since high school...
The Jets opened the game by sending all their linebackers to the line of scrimmage hard, which stalled our run game, because as good as Rham is he can't make much happen if every play he's getting hit by two defenders a few yards behind the line of scrimmage.
The pass wasn't much better, often because defenders were arriving almost before Jacoby finished his five step drop.
Then we tried the things you do to counter an aggressive pass rush (delay draws, screen passes, etc.) only they didn't work, often because we couldn't keep defenders away from the ball in those schemes, either
So, then our defense was constantly on the field. And didn't have much time to regroup and catch their breath.
Domino... domino... domino...
And once the whole thing started spiraling you could see in the body language of some of our players by the third quarter they just wanted the game to be over and to get the F outta there
I was trying to remember the last time I had Super Bowl 20 flashbacks. It's been a while.
...
Thinking out loud here as much as talking to y'all...
For a football team to remain competitive and look good, every unit has to play at a certain baseline competency, above a certain floor. If they're not, then it becomes way too easy for the other team to exploit that somehow. And then a different group-- that might have been fine otherwise-- gets overwhelmed. And then the whole thing can go down like a line of dominoes, each knocking over the next.
Last night the combination of-- (i) our tackles being turnstiles, (ii) seeming confusion on scheme and/or communication-- resulted in way too many defenders coming in unblocked. Part of this is story of a unit without much talent losing its depth, so that guys who looked better in a supporting role look worse in a more important role. Caedan did a really good job of run blocking in weeks 1 and 2 out of those power sets where he was an extra lineman lined up outside the RT. But, obviously, that's different than starting at LT for the first time since high school...
The Jets opened the game by sending all their linebackers to the line of scrimmage hard, which stalled our run game, because as good as Rham is he can't make much happen if every play he's getting hit by two defenders a few yards behind the line of scrimmage.
The pass wasn't much better, often because defenders were arriving almost before Jacoby finished his five step drop.
Then we tried the things you do to counter an aggressive pass rush (delay draws, screen passes, etc.) only they didn't work, often because we couldn't keep defenders away from the ball in those schemes, either
So, then our defense was constantly on the field. And didn't have much time to regroup and catch their breath.
Domino... domino... domino...
And once the whole thing started spiraling you could see in the body language of some of our players by the third quarter they just wanted the game to be over and to get the F outta there
Wish you'd gotten a better game to go to...
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Makes me wonder how the heck did the 2021 Bengals make it to the Super Bowl. In the divisional round against a good (12-5) Tennessee team, Burrow was sacked 9 times and harassed on virtually every pass play. They couldn't run for crap (65 on 18 carries, 3.6 ypc) so it was all on Burrow. Somehow, despite getting murdered all game long, he went 28-37 (75.7%) for 348 yards, and Cincy beat Tennessee 19-16.
This answer is probably too cute by half... but off the cuff I'd say (i) having a really good QB play out of their mind can go a long way, combined with (ii) in single NFL games crazy things can happen
Lombardi said he had gained I think 40 pounds and that is why they started him at guard in camp - he was too fat and slow to play tackle - but eventually they moved him back out and he said there was nothing true about what Lombardi said. He does look...fat and slow however out there now. Concerning sign when you give the guy the big contract and he rewards you with this.
Yeah, Onwenu has been awful. He's either getting beat or looks clueless on who he is supposed to block and blocks nobody. I suppose some of that could be on Robinson doing the wrong thing and confusing Onwenu but Onwenu is supposed to be the strong point of the line and him being awful is not good and disappointing coming off the extension.
If/when they get healthy I think Onwenu needs to go back to RG. Lowe - Sow/Robinson - Andrews - Onwenu - Wallace. See what that brings. Theoretically Onwenu is an elite guard and fat Onwenu would play a lot better at guard than T. Wallace is a RT by trade from college, maybe he settles in a bit with the positional familiarity. That still leaves Lowe at LT but he is still their best option for this season.
If/when they get healthy I think Onwenu needs to go back to RG. Lowe - Sow/Robinson - Andrews - Onwenu - Wallace. See what that brings. Theoretically Onwenu is an elite guard and fat Onwenu would play a lot better at guard than T. Wallace is a RT by trade from college, maybe he settles in a bit with the positional familiarity. That still leaves Lowe at LT but he is still their best option for this season.
One was a 57-yard quick throw to Chase and there was also a 32-yard play to end the half that meant nothing. The short answer is they picked off Tannehill three times, shut down Henry (I miss you, DJ Reader) and McPherson went 4-4, including two from 50+.
As improbable as winning a game taking nine sacks and making it to the Super Bowl with that OL was, it might be more improbable looking back how the Bengals lost to this Pats team. Weird shit happens the most in Week 1 and Higgins pulling his hamstring midweek probably wrecked their game plan, but it's just inexcusable.
I didn't see much good here last night. Andrews got beaten one time badly but otherwise seemed sound to me. Besides that, gross. The line struggles straight up and has no awareness whatsoever on stunts and blitzes and little ability to handle any surprises whatsoever even if they recognized them. The communication is ass. Guys are being beaten physically and mentally, speed and power, and now even the run blocking sucks most snaps. Total mess.
I am hoping Onwenu gets cut this offseason or perhaps after June 1st. Yeah, eating that cap space sucks, but so does keeping around players that clearly are not bought into the program and show zero intention of ever buying in. Draft new tackles the first two rounds and go from there.
Whether they cut Mike or he straightens out, I look forward to next year's draft when we again don't take tackles high and don't find anyone good on the open market either.
I was thinking the exact same thing. And in a few more weeks, you can add Strange to the LG mix.
Lol it is like the movie Groundhog day as this scenario plays out year after year after year it seems for the last half decade.
I think what really challenged the Pats line last night more than just a talent wipeout was the Jets historically rarely blitz under Saleh and the Pats got surprised by it. So short week of prep, bad talent, and the Jets blitzed like crazy (for them). Pats didn’t look ready for it at all. Pats got behind for the first time all year and it turned into a mess.
And then have people come around to tell us there was absolutely nothing they could have done to address the position.
If the Pats get surprised by blitzes, they’re idiots. Everyone knows the state of their OL. They’re going to get this treatment every week, regardless of historical trends.
I don't question their takes on the free agents this past offseason. The pickings were bleak. But I find it hard to believe that our draft picks didn't afford us an opportunity to draft a tackle who wasn't waving guys in like Wendell Kim.
I don't think that AVP and staff are surprised at all. The issue is having a plan for stunts and blitzes and having the people to execute that plan. They definitely don't have the latter and perhaps don't have the former either.
It’s easy to say this but the Oline situation in the NFL is bad. The big laugh last year was BB trading with Pitt to let them come up and draft a tackle the Jets wanted. I think that kid just got benched for sucking in Pittsburgh (1st round pick).
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Eh, throw a shit ton of money at Tyron Smith and have him leave it on the table for a contender, go get Jonah Williams (I know he's hurt, but don't think that would necessarily be the case here), trade up into the first or second round anticipating the tackle run, plenty they could have done. Not to mention there were many LTs and RTs (which they also need) available in the 2023 offseason. Just trying to fix the position by throwing shit at the wall for years now. Don't get me started on the "RT-to-LT" conversion projects. How many of those have we had the past two seasons? Eight? Fuck me.
They had a decent line with guys like Thuney, Mason, and Karras; who are still more than useful players. If good lineman are so hard to find, why did we lose the ones we had?
This is an indicative play of non-blitz
View: https://twitter.com/michaelFhurley/status/1837113132658942390
Left to right.....
Wallace sets outside, looks decent... guy disengages and goes inside, Wallace gets cleaned out by Jordan and his man.
Jordan, gets to the man, drives him out of the frame..... unfortunately in the process he cleans out his LT, allowing the end to get to the QB unabated.
Andrews drops back, the guy doesn't come to his gap, he then chases him in a circle, ends up running into a guy with his back to the LOS.
Robinson drops into his set, Onwenu's guy comes into him, he sets a bad anchor and gets powered through
Onwenwu same guy as Robinson, picks him, spin move, crushed for speed, throws and arm out, then tries to get to the guy looping and misses him.
Rham puts a chip on the last guy (who Onwenwu whiffs on) but doesn't slow him at all.
To me, Onwenu picks the wrong guy, he should have the guy on the end no matter what, Robinson should be shifting out more. Left side was just execution.
1. We have no idea if they did, we know they were in on him, and that some have said the Jets were not the highest $.
2. I guess? He hasn't been any better than Okorafor the last couple years, he's bad and has been particularly bad at allowing sacks.
3. Trading up is hard, it's not always available, and the OT went fast in the 1st. In the 2nd... sure I guess, but those guys aren't doing much better than Wallace, Suamataia just got benched (and he had some off-field concerns for teams).
The line moves turned out poorly, in part because Okorafor fell off a cliff and quit. But yeah, they really did not have many options to get a starting T this year.
View: https://twitter.com/michaelFhurley/status/1837113132658942390
Left to right.....
Wallace sets outside, looks decent... guy disengages and goes inside, Wallace gets cleaned out by Jordan and his man.
Jordan, gets to the man, drives him out of the frame..... unfortunately in the process he cleans out his LT, allowing the end to get to the QB unabated.
Andrews drops back, the guy doesn't come to his gap, he then chases him in a circle, ends up running into a guy with his back to the LOS.
Robinson drops into his set, Onwenu's guy comes into him, he sets a bad anchor and gets powered through
Onwenwu same guy as Robinson, picks him, spin move, crushed for speed, throws and arm out, then tries to get to the guy looping and misses him.
Rham puts a chip on the last guy (who Onwenwu whiffs on) but doesn't slow him at all.
To me, Onwenu picks the wrong guy, he should have the guy on the end no matter what, Robinson should be shifting out more. Left side was just execution.
So on these:
1. We have no idea if they did, we know they were in on him, and that some have said the Jets were not the highest $.
2. I guess? He hasn't been any better than Okorafor the last couple years, he's bad and has been particularly bad at allowing sacks.
3. Trading up is hard, it's not always available, and the OT went fast in the 1st. In the 2nd... sure I guess, but those guys aren't doing much better than Wallace, Suamataia just got benched (and he had some off-field concerns for teams).
The line moves turned out poorly, in part because Okorafor fell off a cliff and quit. But yeah, they really did not have many options to get a starting T this year.
He fell off a cliff and quit... because they're playing him out of position. He's never been a LT, just another piece of chewed up old gum thrown at the wall.
Yeah they could "do something", but the available guys just weren't very good players. You know what would be worse than throwing a shitty line of rookies out there, throwing a shitty line of expensive retreads out there. Some years what you need is not what's on the market. That's why having depth is important. The Jets brought in Fashanu as a replacement last night for an injured player. Dolphins have Patrick Paul coming off the bench. Both of those guys would start for us and be improvements, and that's just our division.
I always love deployment of the "why can't we get guys like that" line.
It might have also been better if they hadn't spent all week saying they were going to push the ball downfield and get the ball to the wide receivers. If they had kept their mouth shut and just made everyone think they were going to run, they might have had a couple extra chances early before the blitzes started. That is terrible coaching strategy.
Haven't seen enough of Fashanu to say, nut I don't think Paul is better than Lowe yet, he had a really rough pre-season against scrubs, where Lowe handled the scrubs he just can't handle the good starters. Paul seems to be at a similar point to Wallace right now.
I didn't watch any of Miami's preseason, so only have highlight vids on Paul so far (which are awesome but admittedly only highlight vids). The physique measurables are decidedly different between Paul and Wallace. But I don't feel comfortable holding last night's performance too much against Wallace, since pass pro was just a fucking mess across the board pretty much. We lost by 21 points and only threw the ball 26 times in 2024, and a third of those were Maye's garbage time drive. AVP is no dummy. They're not throwing more because they know that it's unsafe at any score.
What I saw of Paul he really struggled with speed. He was taking huge cheats outside scared of it so guys just cut inside him.
Thing is... he and Wallace are both non-premium pick rookies (Suamataia in this group too), you expect them to be backups early year 1, and it shouldn't be a big concern.
Memory is imperfect (and I'm not going back to rewatch the 1st quarter before posting this) but FWIW my memory was the the Jets were sending their linebackers hard to the line early in the game on both run and pass plays. In effect, they were daring the Pats to throw a slightly-slower-developing pass to a TE shedding his blocking assignment or a slot on a cross route over the middle. This linebacker pressure both shut down our run game and also caused all the pass rush problems we saw.
There are a few ways to respond to this, but just running more wasn't necessarily going to help, especially if your OLine can't block.
Yep but I have major issues with the messaging from this team. They were saying since the season started that they were a physical run first team and it was their identity. If they wanted to switch it up, fine but you do not need to advertise it all week in the media acknowledging that you hadnt moved the ball down field enough and that you would be pushing it down and throwing it more and getting Pop targets. That is all the kind of stuff that should be internal. It is also clear that Robinson does much better run blocking than pass blocking, as seems to be the case with many young linemen. So establishing the run would have helped a lot or a better run pass mix, especially as the score was close enough to justify it for a long time.
Eh, I'll be the contrarian here and say that I doubt letting the media know their intentions had much of an impact on anything. The Jets undoubtedly planned for what the Pats could do, not what they wanted to do. This isn't a particularly challenging offense to game plan for.
So PFF scores are not the end all be all, but
View: https://twitter.com/NickCRadio/status/1837884551047401632
Worth noting for all the "Wolf needed to trade up..."
All the 2nd round tackles have been bad, really bad. PFF also had Wallace better (but that is likely skewed by run grade on 6th lineman plays)... Tackle play is terrible league wide and as usual no tackles outsider the 1st are impact rookies
View: https://twitter.com/NickCRadio/status/1837884551047401632
Worth noting for all the "Wolf needed to trade up..."
All the 2nd round tackles have been bad, really bad. PFF also had Wallace better (but that is likely skewed by run grade on 6th lineman plays)... Tackle play is terrible league wide and as usual no tackles outsider the 1st are impact rookies
Yeah it's starting to make sense why they said fuck it and took a WR in the 2nd and grabbed projects after that. They just didn't like any of the 2nd round guys, and it seems that they may have been justified there.
Hoping that they find someone someday.
Two weeks of PFF grades for rookie OTs is not exactly a large sample size to conclude anything off of. Sua was always going to be a project. A lot of rookies struggle in year 1 too. The hope is that these guys can become starters on their rookie deals and the sooner the better. I would likely ignore that tweet as it is the first two games of rookies starts.
Oh I don't think he or I mean that it is some long-term indictment of the players, but rather the "well they should have just traded up for a LT in round 2 and he'd be way better than Lowe" crowd are not living in reality. Rookie OTs in the 2nd are almost never good year 1, and none of them have been. PFF score is just shorthand, none of those guys are close to starting LTs in the NFL right now.
Honestly making a decision now on whether or not they should have traded up or not seems extremely premature. Doesn't it? Isn't two weeks into their rookie years and some incomplete PFF grades a little early to start rehashing it? Am I just being prickly?
@Cellar-Door didn't see your post before I posted again. My apologies.
@Cellar-Door didn't see your post before I posted again. My apologies.
I don't think it's as much about whether they should trade up, he's responding to the people who think that any of the 2nd round rookies were going to step in and be better than Lowe, and that Wallace not being a better option than Lowe day 1 means he's a bust unlike those other guys.
To me the answer is always.... we have no idea what trade was available so it is always useless to say they should have. The more general point is that a lot of Patriots fans keep saying "OMG how did they not address the line!" and then when you look... the other available rookies are just as bad, most of the other mid-tier OT's available in FA have been bad. Cattles (and me by extension) is just pointing out that all these guys have been bad, OT play around the league is terrible and the only way to feel good about your LT spot is usually to draft one near the top of the 1st round.
Yeah, so for me I was the veteran bridge guy + draft a guy. You should or have-to do both. I was more angry that they didn't get a veteran vs that they didn't draft someone because 1) they needed a LT and that's a R1 target, 2) they took Maye so... can't draft a R1 LT. I was annoyed how they played day 2 though and wish they had taken the OT first but it doesn't really matter that much this year. I will say again though that reaching for picks because you need that position is a bad strategy. I'm looking at you, Caedan Wallace. Also, I think they did him a disservice making him play LT. If they had just tried to fast-track him to RT they could have played Onwenu at RG and the cascading effect is a much better line imo. Of course I am assuming Wallace could eventually start at RT which is no guarantee.
Receipt from Evaluating the Front Office Thread:
Receipt from Evaluating the Front Office Thread:
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well technically they got Okorafor. It was a terrible idea given he isn’t good and also doesn’t play LT. But I guess they liked him more than Donovan Smith, Eluemunor, Nijman et al
I’d be shocked if none of the non top 15 pick OT end up being better next year and beyond than Vederian Lowe. Are they better right now? Well I guess according to PFF (for whatever that’s worth), no not really. Does that mean that passing on taking a guy and developing him in 2024 so he’s ready for 2025 and opting for Wallace/Polk combo instead was a good idea? No probably not.
as you indirectly point out, even highly drafted OT are either bad or at least are bad initially. Very few actually live up to the “pro ready stud” hype like Alt. Sometimes you get Alt, other times you get an Evan Neal and sometimes you get a guy who needs a year or two.
problem being of course, what do the Pats do now? Hope Wallace or Lowe can develop into a solid LT before opening day 2025? Force themselves to take a tackle in round 1 and hope that guy is an Alt (solid from the get to)? What happens if they’re not sold on the value of Campbell/Banks wherever they’re drafting? Just take a (e.g.) Hunter, Graham or Carter and hope to hit an unlikely starter at tackle later on in the draft?
it seems to me that if the strategy was build for 2025 and punt 2024 which looks like their plan (no real big external moves, lots of 1 year deals for trash heap guys and keeping their proverbial powder dry for internal extensions), then finding the best possible LT prospect they could should have been more important than a low-ceiling non-dynamic WR like Polk. Or, spend some of their piles of cash on a better bridge than Okorafor.
I just don’t get the vision here. Unless they’re willing to force things next April and also get really lucky, they’re starting at 2025 being another year of Lowe or similar LT play.
Paul was very raw coming out of school. Probably would be struggling mightily now at LT in New England but perhaps they would be a path to being competent. Lowe is low upside and low performing.
At least from where I’m sitting, a terrible LT was a good bet once they punted on free agency. But it would be nice to be able to squint and think “well maybe with a year of experience this guy could be something” which isn’t the case for Lowe and unlikely Wallace (at least at LT, perhaps he makes something of himself at RT)
I'm more trying to make some peace with not doing more at tackle in the draft, and the guys that were on the board that I liked playing poorly (particularly Paul) helps with that. I was never 100% sold on Kingsley in round 2, or Rosengarten for that matter, but was in on Paul. Looking at it the other way, if any of that tier of guy was starting in the NFL right now at tackle and pancaking dudes like nobody's business, I'd probably be crapping all over this forum like a sick beagle, so I gotta own some contentment with our predicament, much in the same way that I'm not ready to crucify Wolf for not picking up one of the JAGs available in FA. It just wasn't a good year to plug that hole in the roster while also trying to plug the even bigger hole at QB. Good news is that a 5-ish win team is going to have another set of high picks next year and another year's worth of jailbreak game film and will probably finally deal with this problem at tackle.