NFC Championship: 49ers at Seahawks
- Thread starter ThePrideofShiner
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Having watched the play a few times now on DVR, I have to disagree. Sherman was tight on Crabtree the whole route and his best attribute is that it's very hard to go over him because of his length. That throw was a terrible decision. Karpernick admitted in the post game press conference that he made up his mind at the line of scrimmage that he was throwing there. Which itself is terrible mental QB play - "It's first down and I'm going to throw against the best ballhawks in the league no matter whether my receiver is open or not."smastroyin said:
He also fumbled on the fifth to last drive (and threw a TD after they recovered ). He had two strip sacks, two bad INTs, and a three and out on their last five drives. Great play to get them here but a simply awful performance down the stretch. No way to sugarcoat that.
I should add an obvious real-life comparison would be Brady going after Anthony Smith in that Steelers game in 2007. The difference being it was still in the middle of the game. All a matter of personal taste though. If you don't have a problem with what Sherman did, I'm not here to scold you.
The final throw was a really good throw but a terrible decision. There was just no window. I blame the play call that had Crabtree on a go route against Sherman as the first option more than anything. The prior INT was just trying to do too much, but it was funny to see him complete the exact same throw on the next series. He just missed threw the first one about a foot too low.Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
Kaepernick did not play well in the fourth quarter, although he was really good on the final drive before the INT, but he was the only reason they were in the game in the first place. That long scramble and the TD to Boldin were both otherworldly plays that maybe no other QB in the league can make (check out his body position and try to figure out how he got that much velocity on the ball). They couldn't run the ball at all all game. The receivers were dropping passes all over the place. He played well enough to win against the best defense in the league on the road. The problem was not Kaepernick, it was allowing that 4th down TD (set up by the missed roughing the punter penalty that gave Seattle great field position), and giving up that long kick return that gave Seattle a free field goal in a game that came down to two or three plays either way.
redsahx said:
So because it happens somewhat regularly it can't be classless? Your statement was so far over the top it deserved to be mocked. Sherman's taunting last night wouldn't even crack the top 100 most classless moves in the history of sports. It might not be in the top 1000. Was it childish and unnecessary? Sure. Was it some kind of affront to the game? Not even close.
I love watching people lose their minds over this about as much as I love watching Sherman play football.
Considering how well SF was rolling on that drive and considering the fact that it was first down and they had two timeouts, challenging Sherman on that play was a terrible decision. With two timeouts, time wasn't a factor. They coudl have kept pounding the inside.
It was either a really bad play call or a really bad decision by Kaep. Or both. If i was a SF fan, I would be lived. Two years in a row they can't close the deal in the red zone.
It was either a really bad play call or a really bad decision by Kaep. Or both. If i was a SF fan, I would be lived. Two years in a row they can't close the deal in the red zone.
Dogman2 said:
It is very important to a lot of people to be as outraged as possible, as quickly as possible.
Snodgrass'Muff said:
He was personally offended. Don't you get that? In the future, all sports players need to be mindful of redsahx and his delicate sensibilities. That's the problem here.
Dogman2 said:
I suppose I should issue an apology, then. I'll have my team get to work on some cards for me to read from at the podium.
johnmd20 said:
Yep. I mean, people are actually going to root for Denver now that Sherman has completely redefined "classless" based on an unbelievable play. Seriously.
Just stop watching if that's all it takes.
johnmd20 said:
Yep. Kaep is already on record saying he made up his mind to make that throw while walking up to the LOS. Just a horrible decision based on what you stated above with down, time and TO's in their pocket.
Oh, and Crabtree wasn't open.
No big deal, I get where you are coming from. I opened myself up for it, as even a buddy of mine on facebook taunted me for saying something similar there. I didn't take your post personally, I was just having some fun dishing it back.Snodgrass'Muff said:
Out of curiosity though, what kind of antics do bug you? When the Jets won here in the 2010 Divisional round game, I didn't mind any of their antics, as it was a huge win for them and the Pats had heaped enough abuse on other teams over the years. I would expect the winner of yesterday's NFC game to blow off some steam given the pressure of not only the Super Bowl birth on the line, but the pressure of potentially losing to such a heated rival. For whatever reason Sherman just rubbed me the wrong way and in my view just took a few extra unnecessary steps. I'll survive. It just took a few hours of gently rocking back and forth and soothing music.
redsahx said:
Glad you aren't taking it personally. We rib each other around her all the time. Thick skin tends to be necessary.
Anyway, to answer your question, any time a player chooses to do something that can result in another player being injured like throwing at or near someone's head, sliding spikes up or well out of the base path to take out the legs in baseball, intentional fouls in basketball where players are thrown to the ground or have their legs taken out, intentionally low hits in football or antics in a pile up like trying to gouge eyes or break fingers. And that's to say nothing of incidents like Ron Artest going into the stands to fight with fans.
There are far worse things you can do than taunt an opposing player.
I have a hard time with the dismissive "oh he wasn't open" bullshit when the deflection happened at the last instant and it took all of Sherman's physical prowess to get his hand on it. Kaep left it a little bit low and/or short (if you're going to take that chance then you put it where only your receiver can make the catch) but that is the throw and that is the route. Tom Brady and Randy Moss used to do this play in the end zone all the time.
I literally could care less about Kaepernick so call him a choker all you want, but I think you guys are choosing to ignore what a good play it was on Sherman's part.
I literally could care less about Kaepernick so call him a choker all you want, but I think you guys are choosing to ignore what a good play it was on Sherman's part.
Snodgrass'Muff wrote:
Semantics may be a factor here. I would argue you are talking about "dirty" plays. I guess it's hard to be dirty and classy (<---- must be some good jokes here), but for some I imagine "classless" is a good label for bad sportsmanship type stuff.
Does anyone doubt if Crabtree had pulled that ball in he wouldn't have immediately gotten into Sherman's face?
Seems like the NFC had quite a few teams this year that liked to chirp before, during, and after the game. SEA, SF, CAR.
Seems like the NFC had quite a few teams this year that liked to chirp before, during, and after the game. SEA, SF, CAR.
smastroyin said:
I'm not ignoring anything. I'm choosing to question the decision to throw into the end zone, against the ONE guy who can make an amazing play because of said physical prowess, when you have timeouts and 4 downs. They didn't need the TD there. They shouldn't have even tried. Because in trying, you run the risk of having one of the best players on the field make an awesome play.
Sherman's antics did not "offend" me and I am not outraged, but I think he seems like a dick. Is that OK for me to say, or are you guys saying I have to like him?
I don't get it. I've got no issues with people who like Sherman. Whatever floats your boat. But its sports and people choose who they root for (or not) for reasons that do not make a whole lot of sense and are not always internally consistent or logical. Look at Wes Welker. You have some Pats fans here saying that they would like to see him get a ring because he was a good player here for a long time, and the play yesterday against Talib should have been a penalty, but was not dirty. And you have others who probably would enjoy seeing Welker get killed in two weeks and who hate the guy with a passion, and think what he did yesterday was dirty.
The fact that Sherman's post-game interview (plus what he did immediately after the play with Crabtree) is generating this much conversation I think speaks for the fact that it was a bit outside of what you normally see from an NFL player. Some obviously like the guy for that, or are OK with it, for others not so much. He's an incredibly talented player, everyone agrees with that. But personally, even though I will be rooting for Seattle in two weeks, I find it hard to like the guy because he seems like a dick. I would rather not root for players who (seemingly) go out of their way to act like dicks (unless they are wearing Patriot uniforms in which case I root for the laundry). I could be wrong about Sherman being a dick, but I'm sure Sherman doesn't give a shit what I think so I am not losing sleep over it.
I don't get it. I've got no issues with people who like Sherman. Whatever floats your boat. But its sports and people choose who they root for (or not) for reasons that do not make a whole lot of sense and are not always internally consistent or logical. Look at Wes Welker. You have some Pats fans here saying that they would like to see him get a ring because he was a good player here for a long time, and the play yesterday against Talib should have been a penalty, but was not dirty. And you have others who probably would enjoy seeing Welker get killed in two weeks and who hate the guy with a passion, and think what he did yesterday was dirty.
The fact that Sherman's post-game interview (plus what he did immediately after the play with Crabtree) is generating this much conversation I think speaks for the fact that it was a bit outside of what you normally see from an NFL player. Some obviously like the guy for that, or are OK with it, for others not so much. He's an incredibly talented player, everyone agrees with that. But personally, even though I will be rooting for Seattle in two weeks, I find it hard to like the guy because he seems like a dick. I would rather not root for players who (seemingly) go out of their way to act like dicks (unless they are wearing Patriot uniforms in which case I root for the laundry). I could be wrong about Sherman being a dick, but I'm sure Sherman doesn't give a shit what I think so I am not losing sleep over it.
Someone said it last night:
The rest of the League should fall to its knees in gratitude that neither Brady nor Manning pilot either of these teams. And I recall the 49ers sniffing around the latter before he went to Denver.
Time will tell whether Wilson can overcome his limitations, and Kap his instincts, to become an elite QB.
Yes, it was a tremendous play. But given the circumstances, you should not give an elite player the opportunity to make it.
The rest of the League should fall to its knees in gratitude that neither Brady nor Manning pilot either of these teams. And I recall the 49ers sniffing around the latter before he went to Denver.
Time will tell whether Wilson can overcome his limitations, and Kap his instincts, to become an elite QB.
Yes, it was a tremendous play. But given the circumstances, you should not give an elite player the opportunity to make it.
DrewDawg wrote:
It's not the WWE. I know the game is brutal, but if 99 pct of players don't go anywhere near Sherman's level of taunting, why is it wrong to call him out?
I'll probably be mocked for this, but if Sherman was your son and was responsive to your feedback, would you tell him to clean up his act or say "great taunting, son!"
It's not the WWE. I know the game is brutal, but if 99 pct of players don't go anywhere near Sherman's level of taunting, why is it wrong to call him out?
twibnotes said:
Well, he's not my son. My son does play sports and I think my son should comport himself better than Sherman did. But that's because he's my son, and he's playing high school sports not professional athletics.
Sherman was entertaining. Sports at that level is supposed to be entertaining. His behavior hurt no one.
L.O.B.
For clarity, during my original post I was thinking more along the context of how guys conduct themselves in a winning or losing situation. Regarding the Malice in the Palace, that brought us the priceless moment of Jermaine O'Neal clocking that chubby Pistons fan who tried to rush the court with a folding chair, so it wasn't all bad. A different example would be how Isaiah Thomas acted in the final seconds of Game 7 in the 1987 Conference Finals.Snodgrass'Muff said:
smastroyin said:
Umm, what? Have you read the last few pages of this thread? Posters are calling Sherman classless for the taunting but admitting he made an outstanding play on that ball because he is one of the best, if not the best, CB in the league. And, really, the spacing of the play, the coverage and the player all say Crabtree wasn't open.
Nobody is ignoring Sherman's play or calling Kaep a choker. What we are saying is that he made a very poor decision prior to snapping the ball and that decision cost his team a SB berth.
The only update I've seen on Navarro Bowman is that Harbaugh thought he had a torn ACL. The way that knee bent the wrong way, there has to be more to that. I'll be curious to see what the docs say over the next few days.
There are a lot of 49ers I don't respect for various reasons, but he's not one of them. That guy can play on my team any time. Best wishes to him for a complete recovery.
There are a lot of 49ers I don't respect for various reasons, but he's not one of them. That guy can play on my team any time. Best wishes to him for a complete recovery.
I'm not talking about Sherman's antics, I'm talking about the idea that Kaepernick made three godawaful (or whatever the quote was) turnovers.
I don't think the third was godawful. Brady and Moss used to run that play all the time with the ball released while Moss looked covered. It didn't always work, of course. You can argue Kaep left it a little short, but for the route it was the correct throw and Crabtree was open enough to make a play on the ball given the route. Sherman had to make an incredible physical play in order to deflect the ball, and sure he is great and you can say "why challenge him?" Fine. You are also throwing to your best receiver. Did you guys get pissed every time Brady/Moss or Brady/Welker challenged Darrelle Revis? Maybe you did, I don't remember. As well, the turnover itself happened by essentially random fluke, even after Sherman's great play to get his hand on it.
I mean whatever, but the idea that the niners loss should be on Kaepernick is a little much, since he was also the entire reason their offense was competitive at all. Perhaps it is too much of a load on him.
I don't think the third was godawful. Brady and Moss used to run that play all the time with the ball released while Moss looked covered. It didn't always work, of course. You can argue Kaep left it a little short, but for the route it was the correct throw and Crabtree was open enough to make a play on the ball given the route. Sherman had to make an incredible physical play in order to deflect the ball, and sure he is great and you can say "why challenge him?" Fine. You are also throwing to your best receiver. Did you guys get pissed every time Brady/Moss or Brady/Welker challenged Darrelle Revis? Maybe you did, I don't remember. As well, the turnover itself happened by essentially random fluke, even after Sherman's great play to get his hand on it.
I mean whatever, but the idea that the niners loss should be on Kaepernick is a little much, since he was also the entire reason their offense was competitive at all. Perhaps it is too much of a load on him.
Quinton Patton was so incredibly wide open on that play. He could have easily got 6-8 yards and gotten out of bounds.
coremiller said:
I generally agree. Kaepernick made some incredible plays to get points and keep them in a game in which not much else was working. The one caveat I would add is that he was very fortunate to even have the chance to win the game at the end. He was down 3 and turned the ball over twice in his own territory, including one at the 5 yard line. In the vast majority of cases, that's going to lead to 6+ opponent points and an insurmountable two score lead.
smastroyin said:
Call it bullshit if you want but he wasn't open and its as simple as that. As Coremiller said there was literally no window to get that ball into. It was a pretty good throw that would have enabled Crabtree to possibly make the catch right at the back corner of the end zone but Sherman was glued on the receiver. He made a great play but those plays are pretty routine for Richard Sherman if you've watched him a lot. What he does better than anybody else in the league, by far, and maybe better than anybody I've ever seen, is use his length and timing to prevent balls just like that getting over him. To say that it was a fine decision for Kaep to throw there no matter whether Crabtree was covered or not because Brady and Moss used to run the same play ignores all the player and game context and is just incredibly lazy analysis.
DaughtersofDougMirabelli said:Quinton Patton was so incredibly wide open on that play. He could have easily got 6-8 yards and gotten out of bounds.
I'm not going to kill him for that because there are often guys open, especially on the opposite side of the field from a play's primary receiver. But I will say that this play underlines what is probably Kaepernick's biggest weakness as a QB - and I'm generally bullish on him for his other attributes - which is that he doesn't really go through a standard read progression in the pocket. He has a primary receiver, maybe looks at another guy (but often not), and then looks to get out of the pocket and improvise.
Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
Agreed, but with his comments after the game and zeroing in on Crabtree, just shows how bad a decision it was to not go through your progressions. Davis opened up underneath too.
Really if he had looked anywhere other than Crabtree he probably would have made the play.
Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
That's not what I said. I said that Brady/Moss ran that play and it was the right throw even though he looked covered at the ball release. You try to get the ball up and your receiver to make the play. It didn't happen. But whatever, I'm done arguing about something I hardly care about with people who are never wrong.
smastroyin said:
Maybe if you refrained from reflexively calling other peoples' arguments "bullshit" when they disagree with you then we'd have a more productive discussion next time. By the way, myself, Dogman, and Coremiller and all the others saying this was a bad decision and bad play are all wrong at times (and capable of admitting it), just not this time.
"Live by the Kaep, die by the Kaep."
Having watched most of Kaep's games as a 49er, I'll just echo the comments that he really needs to work on his progressions. He tends to lock in on one receiver pre-snap and because he has good receivers (contrary to Sherman's comments), he often gambles with that rocket arm of his and forces throws -- and more often than not Crabtree and Boldin will catch them.
Now that's he's had a full season under his belt, next season will be very telling about whether he makes the leap to a great QB based on all the physical tools he has.
As for the whole Sherman comments, this might provide some more context which mentions an altercation between Crabtree and Sherman last summer.
And here are Sherman's thoughts on last night (link for the whole thing)
Having watched most of Kaep's games as a 49er, I'll just echo the comments that he really needs to work on his progressions. He tends to lock in on one receiver pre-snap and because he has good receivers (contrary to Sherman's comments), he often gambles with that rocket arm of his and forces throws -- and more often than not Crabtree and Boldin will catch them.
Now that's he's had a full season under his belt, next season will be very telling about whether he makes the leap to a great QB based on all the physical tools he has.
As for the whole Sherman comments, this might provide some more context which mentions an altercation between Crabtree and Sherman last summer.
And here are Sherman's thoughts on last night (link for the whole thing)
jose melendez said:
She was just on with Dan Patrick.
* Stunningly, and in direct contradiction to a post of mine earlier in this thread, her producers did indeed break away from the interview early. Sherman did not walk away. She wasn't given any reason and hasn't had a chance to discuss it with the production crew, but suggests it might have been a fear of profanity (which I find downright unbelievable and idiotic if that was the case).
* The decision to ask the follow-up ("who is talking about you?") was hers and not the producers'. She said she was pretty sure who Sherman was referring to since she knew there was no love lost between him and Crabtree, but wanted to get it on the record so it wasn't presented as an assumption in any future discussions or references.
* At no time did she feel intimidated, threatened or accosted by Sherman. He yelled at the camera, not at her (watching the replay, she's perfectly calm and collected).
I still say SF should have called timeout. If they had no timeouts or there was less time on the clock the throw to Crabtree would have made sense, but not in that situation.
Agree, and that's probably what the right decision was. Would have been 1st and goal or 2nd and short with like 20 seconds left and 2 timeouts.
wibi said:
Agree, and that's probably what the right decision was. Would have been 1st and goal or 2nd and short with like 20 seconds left and 2 timeouts.
As a consumer of entertainment, I love Richard Sherman. The WWE parallels are spot on. If the XFL had risen up and swallowed the NFL, Commissioner Vince McMahon would point out that it doesn't matter if you watch the Super Bowl to see Sherman beat Manning or get beat by Manning. The point is that you're watching.
As someone who values basic human decency, I can't defend it. It's one thing pre-game or in-game, because you undoubtedly can influence the result one way or the other by running your mouth. It's not something I did, wanted my teammates to do, or would tolerate my son or daughter doing, but I at least get it. But post-game, when there's nothing to be gained, you're just being an asshole. Remember that last year in the wild card round, Sherman yapped at Trent Williams postgame, and earned himself a paw to the face. (It should also be pointed out that like Crabtree, Williams is also a trash talker. It takes two to tango.)
As someone who values basic human decency, I can't defend it. It's one thing pre-game or in-game, because you undoubtedly can influence the result one way or the other by running your mouth. It's not something I did, wanted my teammates to do, or would tolerate my son or daughter doing, but I at least get it. But post-game, when there's nothing to be gained, you're just being an asshole. Remember that last year in the wild card round, Sherman yapped at Trent Williams postgame, and earned himself a paw to the face. (It should also be pointed out that like Crabtree, Williams is also a trash talker. It takes two to tango.)
CaptainLaddie said:
Richard Sherman is a Stanford graduate who has succeeded against long odds and has a bit of a chip on his shoulder as a result. He's also a graduate of the Deion Sanders School of Self-Promotion. As part of his efforts to court superstar attention at a position that often goes unnoticed by casual fans, he has embraced the role of a villain. Calling Sherman's haters racists gives Sherman himself too little credit for creating a public persona that is designed to evoke these sorts of feelings.
As a Steelers' fan living in New England, I have come to relish rooting for the villain, so I'm loving this. The next two weeks will be more fun for me than they would be if Sherman had mouthed the usual platitudes after last night's game. Obviously, not everyone likes rooting for the villain, so some folks here who were inclined to root for the NFC champs may find themselves unexpectedly cheering for Peyton Manning. That's all part of Sherman's plan.
Edit: Should clarify that I'm sure Sherman's comments to Erin Andrews weren't planned -- but they do fit nicely with the persona Sherman has been cultivating for some time. (And that's true of the Seattle D more generally -- they have talked a ton of trash all season and have earned a fair amount of hate for it, but they seem to relish it, and of course they have backed it up on the field at every turn.)
Sherman's interview with Ed Werder is awesome, too.
"This is a joke, right?"
Yes. yes it is.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47BQkAw0SCU[/video]
"This is a joke, right?"
Yes. yes it is.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47BQkAw0SCU[/video]
CaptainLaddie said:
Probably. But so does the broad jump. I was just curious why the page listed all of his combine scores except for the test. Especially since he's such a genius. He graduated from Stanford University, you know.
His "twin" Patrick Willis also just plays badass football without doing much barking or hot dogging.DanoooME said:
redsahx said:
I just saw this. There's no way you think that right? Unless of course you started watching sports exactly when the game ended yesterday.
Sherman's talking is more classless than the hundreds of examples we could find with 5 minutes of google searching of cheap shots in all major sports?
WayBackVazquez said:
Well, he did graduate as his high school's salutatorian with a 4.2 GPA.
CBS Sports has a nice timeline up about him from back around the end of October.
The more I learn about him, the more I like him.