NBA trade season
- Thread starter Devizier
- Start date
Vucevic is a mediocre defender, plays poor help defense, and does not space the floor on offense. He's a real value added rebounder, but that is basically his only plus skill. He has a game that is better suited to another era, before spacing and help defense were as important as they are now. He's not David Lee, but he's not totally dissimilar either.
I think swapping out Olynyk for Vucevic would be a real step back for the product on the court. The Celtics benefit from Olynyk's spacing a lot, especially against teams with a good rim protecting center, who has to get pulled out to the perimeter on defense. There are probably some matchups where the Celtics would be better with Vucevic than Olynyk (Toronto maybe?), but they're the exception.
What about snagging Vucevic without giving up Kelly? I can't imagine replacing Amir's minutes with Vucevic would be a negative.
Seems to be going around. I made a worse mistake last night Zizic/Brown FT form
And Kelly has his best game of the season....
Zeller has to go. He can't be playing minutes for this team. Horford and Amir are going to miss games. He can't be the one we rely on to cover for them
Zeller has to go. He can't be playing minutes for this team. Horford and Amir are going to miss games. He can't be the one we rely on to cover for them
+/- tells an interesting story.
Jae Crowder +14;
Marcus Smart +9;
Amir +8;
Jonas J +5;
KO +1;
IT 0;
Zeller-1;
Jaylen Brown -3
Very surprised not to see IT with a +. Zeller's performance didn't look so horrible to me and his numbers aren't so bad either.
Jae Crowder +14;
Marcus Smart +9;
Amir +8;
Jonas J +5;
KO +1;
IT 0;
Zeller-1;
Jaylen Brown -3
Very surprised not to see IT with a +. Zeller's performance didn't look so horrible to me and his numbers aren't so bad either.
Crowder scoring 20 a game while defending the other teams best wing is pretty impressive.
He was also on the bench when the offense died in the second quarter, wasn't he? I know that it's fashionable to dismiss counting stats these days, but the guy went for 37 and 8 on the second night of a back-to-back, and fourth game in five days, in a road victory over a decent team without two of our best players. Am I supposed to believe because of +/- stats that Jonas Jerebko made a bigger contribution to that victory with his 0 points and 0 defensive rebounds in 17 minutes at the PF spot?
I've made the point a couple times before, but it's worth remembering that RPM is heavily impacted by the usage pattern of a coach, and limited in ability to adjust for that by the complexity of the matchups with other teams being such small samples. That's to say that while it's a very valuable tool, certain guys will tend to have less-accurate RPMs because they are used (for example) with their own team's reserves a lot more than average, or used against certain types of other lineups where they are 'less bad' than their team's alternatives. I haven't done enough charting to see whether IT is one of these situations or not, but he's a guy that might be. This is all even more true of regular +/-
Of course, as others note, he also is bad enough defensively that he likely is not as valuable as his box score stats suggest.
Of course, as others note, he also is bad enough defensively that he likely is not as valuable as his box score stats suggest.
It wasn't even his best game this month. Kelly had a pretty bad December but outside of that, is the Kelly you'd come to expect. He plays a pretty important role on this team.
Are you watching the games too or just looking at the stats? Watching the game Kelly was more involved last night and made more important plays than he has all year. And it wasn't just his shooting, it was rebounding and slashing to the basket. You are right, he is important to the team, but a 20 minute a nighter can't stop you from trading him if the GM and coach thinks the return value will help more.
You referenced Jaylen's stats in the Jaylen thread as well, said it was nice he "did more than score," but didn't reference anything he actually did in the game. (His Sam Cassel sized balls three pointer.) Last night was Jaylens best moments as a pro following up the night before when it was, up until last night, his best game as a pro.
Unrelated to the above, RPM as a single game basis, and probably even an entire single season isn't anything to look at. Kris Middleton was the top rated SG in RPM three years ago, then two years ago he was close to the bottom.
Yeah, that game Kelly had against Atlanta was pretty bad. 9/11 FG, 4-5 3pt, 4-4 FT, 8 rebounds, 3 assists and a key reason the Celtics won. Have you watched every single game this year? Last nights game was great but the game before last night he was also slashing to the basket. He's been getting easy shots the entire month. Either way, it seems we agree on his value.
As far as Jaylen goes, there was talk after he was drafted about his low steal and block rates so I was just pointing out he followed a good game by another one in which he didn't shoot particularly well.
edit: As far as trading Olynyk, sure if you find a player who is a better fit. Vucevic is not. I think Olynyk is far more important to this team's success than most people though. Ideally, you find a 30+ minute a night player who could take Olynyk's minutes and eat into Amir's but you aren't going to get that for Kelly Olynyk.
Last edited:
Olynyk's offensive skills were always there so long as he didn't play passively. It's his defense that has improved. Maybe a little of Smart and Crowder have rubbed off on him.
Sure, Monroe made a few baskets. Monroe is a proven veteran scorer and Olynyk had no help. I'd rather have Monroe playing back to the basket down low than having other guys shooting three pointers.
Sure, Monroe made a few baskets. Monroe is a proven veteran scorer and Olynyk had no help. I'd rather have Monroe playing back to the basket down low than having other guys shooting three pointers.
I'm not arguing RPM's value with you, but Middleton isn't a good example of what you're trying to say. He was 3rd last year, 2nd the year before, and 43rd 3 years ago. It's not hard to think that improvement is real and not a spurious statistical result.
Speaking of Middleton, he is due back before the all star break. If/when he returns to form, that's going to be a huge boost for the Bucks and cause some nightmare match up problems given the height of Giannis, Parker, Middleton, Monroe/Center. That's 30-35 minutes of Snell/Terry being replaced by a lights out shooter, good defender and borderline all star. It also allows them to play Brogdon more at PG and gives them another shooter off the bench in Snell. They have a lot of decent shooters, actually.
I'd guess Middleton will take on less of an offensive role with the continued emergence of Parker/Giannis but the Bucks are really starved for offense so who knows. Monroe is 3rd on the team in FGA at 8.5 a game. Parker and Giannis combined are averaging 7.9 more shots a game than last year, while Middleton was at 14.5. There are shots to steal off lesser players though.
I'd guess Middleton will take on less of an offensive role with the continued emergence of Parker/Giannis but the Bucks are really starved for offense so who knows. Monroe is 3rd on the team in FGA at 8.5 a game. Parker and Giannis combined are averaging 7.9 more shots a game than last year, while Middleton was at 14.5. There are shots to steal off lesser players though.
Last edited:
Orlando beating the Raptors 60-51 at half due to a 33-15 2nd quarter. Vucevic has 19 points, 6 rebounds, 2 assists and a steal on 8/11 FG, 3/3 from 3 in 16 minutes.
edit: They neutralized him by using Nogueira instead of Valanciunas but the former picked up 5 fouls in 12 minutes of play.
Last edited:
This is coming full circle. Isn't Bebe the player the Celts drafted and traded to the Mavs plus second rounders to get the rights to Kelly?
Snell for MCW was all around fantastic for the Bucks. Someone mentioned him up above.
When was the last time someone was shipped with the Celtics as much as Jimmy Butler?
My Celtics feed this morning was all stories about how Chicago might be open to making him available in the right deal again. (I don't think Ainge will offer "the right deal," btw)
My Celtics feed this morning was all stories about how Chicago might be open to making him available in the right deal again. (I don't think Ainge will offer "the right deal," btw)
Zach Lowe had a podcast interview with a Chicago beat writer who noted that Chicago wasn't ready to commit to building around Butler, had leadership/locker room concerns with him, has never been willing to fully and publically commit to not trading him.
This guy (forget who) also said that in looking around the league, they thought the Celtics had assets they would want in any Butler deal - assets including this year's Nets pick "and other stuff".
Lowe's opinion was that, in the end, Butler is a top 10 player and they are not likely to move him.
Orlando has made it known that Ibaka is available. He is a good fit with the Celtics, but it is the odd situation where 1) Orlando gave up a decent amount to trade for him less than a year ago so they need to somewhat save face and get a return, and 2) He is a free agent so any team trading for him has to either view him as a rental, or believe enough in him to extend him for probably too much money.
Word is Orlando wants young assets and/or picks. They gave up Oladipo, Ilyasova, and the #11 pick in the draft. Jesus what a dumb trade.
So...would you want him on this Celtics team? If so, how much you willing to give up? And is what you are willing, anywhere near the asking price?
2019 Clippers pick + Mickey + Yabusele?
Word is Orlando wants young assets and/or picks. They gave up Oladipo, Ilyasova, and the #11 pick in the draft. Jesus what a dumb trade.
So...would you want him on this Celtics team? If so, how much you willing to give up? And is what you are willing, anywhere near the asking price?
2019 Clippers pick + Mickey + Yabusele?
Ibaka isn't really a plus rebounder which is our biggest need so I'd pass. He'd be an upgrade over Amir or Jerebko but I'm not sure he is worth giving up assets for, especially if he is a rental.
I think the Celtics would view Ibaka as a rental mostly. Therefore I think there is no chance they trade for him.
Your trade doesn't work under the cap BTW.
I think they highest I'd go is Zeller+Mickey + 1 of the following assets:
2019 Clips
Demetrius Jackson
2018 Boston
That's probably not enough to get a trade made, but also It's about as high as I can see going for a rental.
Watching the game last night, it seems clear to me that the spot most in need of an upgrade is Amir Johnson's. He's slow footed in both his man and help defense. He's not a rim protector. He's not a great rebounder. His offensive game is mediocre.
Ibaka would be a more valuable guy to pair with Horford, but that would usually mean Horford playing the 5 and Ibaka the 4, right? Which would be a relatively small line-up. They'd be versatile, but it wouldn't significantly upgrade the team's interior defense and rebounding issues. The Clip's pick/Mickey/Yab? Yeah, that would be in the ballpark of acceptable. Far less than what Orlando traded to get him, though.
Butler would address a different team need - someone who can force defenses to respect his shot and then drive the lane. Right now we have IT and... And Butler of course gives you that plus an overall defensive upgrade. I could see Ainge offering Brown and this year's Nets pick, plus lesser parts. I don't think he gives up one of the top 3 guards (who are all needed on the current team). I don't think he gives up Brown and Crowder (and not sure Chicago wants Crowder as a building block piece anyway). I don't think he gives up both Nets picks and Brown.
Ibaka would be a more valuable guy to pair with Horford, but that would usually mean Horford playing the 5 and Ibaka the 4, right? Which would be a relatively small line-up. They'd be versatile, but it wouldn't significantly upgrade the team's interior defense and rebounding issues. The Clip's pick/Mickey/Yab? Yeah, that would be in the ballpark of acceptable. Far less than what Orlando traded to get him, though.
Butler would address a different team need - someone who can force defenses to respect his shot and then drive the lane. Right now we have IT and... And Butler of course gives you that plus an overall defensive upgrade. I could see Ainge offering Brown and this year's Nets pick, plus lesser parts. I don't think he gives up one of the top 3 guards (who are all needed on the current team). I don't think he gives up Brown and Crowder (and not sure Chicago wants Crowder as a building block piece anyway). I don't think he gives up both Nets picks and Brown.
Is there anyway he tries to swap the 2017 Nets pick with the 2018 Nets pick in any deal? I mean it really looks like the Nets will be the worst team in the league this year and they may not be the worst next year (definitely one of the bottom tier again though).
I realize the lottery is the lottery, but I don't know how deep the draft is supposed to be next year.
Does anyone have any info on that?
couldn't these teams (e.g. Nuggets/Sixers) trade for old players/expiring contracts with season ending injuries with heavily protected 2nds (or just give up a late/useless 2nd)?
someone like the Cavs with Chris Andersen make sense (also trying to cut luxury tax bill)
Right now there is a ton of hype for two players. DeAndre Ayton is an athletic big man that people are projecting as a franchise level center. And there's a kid from Spain, Luka Doncic, who scouts are raving about as a possible generarional talent. If they feel like they have to trade away a Brooklyn pick for Butler, I would rather see it be this year's than next, because no one this year projects as good as those two.
Thanks for the update.
Are we pretty confident that the Nets will be a bottom 3 team next year also?
Could the Celts offer both Nets picks with the stipulation they are top two protected?
Would the Bulls take two picks in the three to five range?
I know Jimmy Butler is great (especially this year) but it would stink to trade the chance at the next Anthony Davis or Westbrook for 27.5 year old Butler.
It would be great to trade Jaylen Brown and the next two Kris Dunn level players though.
Any thoughts as most of you are much more up on the prospects than I am?
I'd love the 22 or 23 year old Ibaka - the one who led the league in blocks and was a terror with those early exciting Thunder teams
Without having seen him play more than a couple of games this year, looks to me like he's either an old 27-1/2 year old or he's stopped being that player due to circumstances/team/effort.
Without having seen him play more than a couple of games this year, looks to me like he's either an old 27-1/2 year old or he's stopped being that player due to circumstances/team/effort.
Butler is likely an offseason move, in the unlikely event that it happens at all. Chicago isn't making the trade without knowing if they are getting Fultz or a 25% chance at Fultz, and would probably like to see how Brown develops in a tough playoff environment as well.
The Celtics probably prefer to wait too. If the pick does end up #1, frankly they have the leverage to pull Brown off the table or tell Chicago to pound sand and feel free to find another team willing to give them anything close to the #1 pick for Butler entering his age 28 season (Love was entering his age 26 season, for reference).
Can't let other teams mess with value just because the Celtics have incredible assets. The 2018 pick is currently the most valuable in the draft because it's not dependent at all on how Boston does. You don't have to worry about trading your star player and immediately depreciating the value of what they've given in return.
Mostly I just like the visual of Ainge telling fellow GMs to pound sand.
The Celtics probably prefer to wait too. If the pick does end up #1, frankly they have the leverage to pull Brown off the table or tell Chicago to pound sand and feel free to find another team willing to give them anything close to the #1 pick for Butler entering his age 28 season (Love was entering his age 26 season, for reference).
Can't let other teams mess with value just because the Celtics have incredible assets. The 2018 pick is currently the most valuable in the draft because it's not dependent at all on how Boston does. You don't have to worry about trading your star player and immediately depreciating the value of what they've given in return.
Mostly I just like the visual of Ainge telling fellow GMs to pound sand.
How would you make that up to the Bulls if the picks end up in the top two and you keep them?
Yeah, you can't change the protections on the picks. In this hypothetical top-2 protected scenario, if we pulled #1 in the lotto two straight years, the Nets would owe us those picks plus two more owed to the Bulls in future years.
What he posted.
And it was more of just a hypothetical question as I would think the Celtics would change the players added to the picks if both picks were #1, but I could be wrong.
I think the other post above sums it up nicely about needing to wait.
He was saying what you said makes no sense. We can't make a deal with the Bulls and encumber the Nets to trading future picks. Which means the Bulls wouldn't make that trade--they won't accept a possible #3 this year and then something like #28 from the Celtics.
I don't know. That is why I asked.
I mean they don't have incompetent people running the team anymore.
I would think they would still be bad.
By finding one guy who isn't one of the worst players in the league. Better than this year isn't a very high bar.
edit: but to be fair you were talking about getting out of the bottom 3. That seems unlikely.
Yeah, I deleted a whole paragraph of my post about this. I think a trade is pretty unlikely because of the vast difference in potential value of the picks. Even if the Nets finish with the worst record, there's a 35% chance they won't get a top 3 pick. So Chicago, if they take that pick now, are going to want to price in that risk. Which means they ask for more. I doubt the Nets will be any better next year, but it's still less certain that they will even get that good a chance at the top 3, so the risk goes up, value of pick goes down.
Jimmy Butler is great, but there is a valid question of whether getting him makes the Celtics enough better to have a good shot at getting to the Finals and more than a prayer of beating GS. Which isn't to say you don't take your shot, but Danny also has to price in that risk to making the trade now as opposed to waiting for the draft. (as well as cap considerations, etc.)
I guess my point is that I don't see it happening, but man it does just keep coming up.
Jimmy Butler is great, but there is a valid question of whether getting him makes the Celtics enough better to have a good shot at getting to the Finals and more than a prayer of beating GS. Which isn't to say you don't take your shot, but Danny also has to price in that risk to making the trade now as opposed to waiting for the draft. (as well as cap considerations, etc.)
I guess my point is that I don't see it happening, but man it does just keep coming up.
“I don’t think any move of significance gets done before the deadline without Danny being given the chance to put his fingerprints on it,” said one general manager.
That latter point could soon come into play as the Clippers attempt to get Carmelo Anthony from the Knicks. We’ve been told that, while Doc Rivers said everything is on the table as he tries to improve the club, he wants to maintain his four-man core of Chris Paul, Blake Griffin, DeAndre Jordan and J.J. Redick.
In that the Clips don’t have much to give up, having dealt quite a bit away to get where they are now, which is still miles behind the Warriors. If the Knicks aren’t happy getting back some side players and expiring contracts, the Clippers will have to expand the deal. That would bring the Celtics into play and explain part of the reason why the Knicks are keeping an eye on them.
But the C’s do have interest in Anthony for themselves, as well. They have for a long time. And it’s no doubt their attention gained an even greater degree when word filtered out that the Celts are one of the clubs for whom Carmelo would consider waiving his no-trade clause.
The question in this case, and, really, in every case, is price. According to multiple sources, there have been, as of the weekend, no formal trade talks between the Celts and New York, but that was largely because the Knicks are believed to be asking a Melo’s ransom for the star.
Anthony could be the additional major scoring source the Celts need, and there is every reason to believe he would fit here from the technical hoop standpoint and as a teammate. But unless Ainge can get more than the 32-year-old Melo, it is hard to picture a scenario in which he surrenders one of the first-rounders he has coming from Brooklyn.
Another key element for the locals is that acquiring Anthony would knock them out of the free agent market this summer, and Ainge may want to see who becomes available there.
Under all these circumstances, Celtics involvement in an Anthony deal would appear to hinge on the Clippers and Knicks finding a creative way to make them want to take part, or Phil Jackson getting frustrated and giving the C’s a price that works.
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celtics/2017/01/bulpett_if_an_nba_blockbuster_occurs_look_for_celtics_to_be_involved
The bolded part is surprising to me. I didn't think Ainge or Brad Stevens would have any interest in Carmelo Anthony.
That latter point could soon come into play as the Clippers attempt to get Carmelo Anthony from the Knicks. We’ve been told that, while Doc Rivers said everything is on the table as he tries to improve the club, he wants to maintain his four-man core of Chris Paul, Blake Griffin, DeAndre Jordan and J.J. Redick.
In that the Clips don’t have much to give up, having dealt quite a bit away to get where they are now, which is still miles behind the Warriors. If the Knicks aren’t happy getting back some side players and expiring contracts, the Clippers will have to expand the deal. That would bring the Celtics into play and explain part of the reason why the Knicks are keeping an eye on them.
But the C’s do have interest in Anthony for themselves, as well. They have for a long time. And it’s no doubt their attention gained an even greater degree when word filtered out that the Celts are one of the clubs for whom Carmelo would consider waiving his no-trade clause.
The question in this case, and, really, in every case, is price. According to multiple sources, there have been, as of the weekend, no formal trade talks between the Celts and New York, but that was largely because the Knicks are believed to be asking a Melo’s ransom for the star.
Anthony could be the additional major scoring source the Celts need, and there is every reason to believe he would fit here from the technical hoop standpoint and as a teammate. But unless Ainge can get more than the 32-year-old Melo, it is hard to picture a scenario in which he surrenders one of the first-rounders he has coming from Brooklyn.
Another key element for the locals is that acquiring Anthony would knock them out of the free agent market this summer, and Ainge may want to see who becomes available there.
Under all these circumstances, Celtics involvement in an Anthony deal would appear to hinge on the Clippers and Knicks finding a creative way to make them want to take part, or Phil Jackson getting frustrated and giving the C’s a price that works.
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celtics/2017/01/bulpett_if_an_nba_blockbuster_occurs_look_for_celtics_to_be_involved
The bolded part is surprising to me. I didn't think Ainge or Brad Stevens would have any interest in Carmelo Anthony.
But they're so much worse than everyone else right now. They could add a good player and still be terrible.
Also, they should trade Lopez at this deadline for the best deal on the table. If they do that they have a chance to be even worse next year than they are now.
Also, they should trade Lopez at this deadline for the best deal on the table. If they do that they have a chance to be even worse next year than they are now.
The Celtics could add protection to the Brooklyn picks, but they obviously can't make part of the protection rights to other future Brooklyn picks. For instance they could trade the 2018 Brooklyn pick and protect it thru top 2, and if it ends up 1 or 2, convey their own 2018 pick instead. But a team would never accept those terms. Only scenario I could see where any team would allow the Celtics to add protection, since there's a huge dropoff from a Brooklyn pick to any other pick they own, is if they were just trading this years pick top 2 protected, and if not conveyed they get Brooklyns 2018 no matter what.
Had they ended up with Lilliard, they would have had better win loss records and worse picks.