Mookie Betts Promoted 6/28

[Montana Fan]

I figure they brought him up because they know the Sox aren't going anywhere this year and he can get a good bit of ML experience when it's not gonna matter a ton. A few months ago I remember reading in the ml threads that scouts were saying that his bat would play in the ML right then. He has done nothing to disprove those comments and there's no time like the present to get him established.

As for the "this day, that day" bullshit you're arguing, c'mon.

 

[SumnerH]

Gagne is also a reliever, where usage depends on game facts. But overall I think the point has merit.

 

[hrbrendan]

not to say he's got butterflies but he's not sleeping right now. just accepted my friend request on fb.

 

[The Mort Report]

 
Sure Pedroia's having a down year and may be in decline, but is anyone really going to clamor for his head if Betts plays a game at second? Especially when Betts can play outfield, which has been a black hole on offense (other than Holt)?

 
I'm not at all trying to pick on what you are saying, and (thankfully) havent had to deal with the Boston media scene, but I seem to remember people calling for Mallet last year when Brady struggled out of the gate.  If Tom frigin' Brady can be questioned by these idiots on radio/tv, Pedroia is an easy target

 

[Rasputin]

 
I'm not at all trying to pick on what you are saying, and (thankfully) havent had to deal with the Boston media scene, but I seem to remember people calling for Mallet last year when Brady struggled out of the gate.  If Tom frigin' Brady can be questioned by these idiots on radio/tv, Pedroia is an easy target

I dislike the insinuation that a mere football player could hold a candle to Dustin Pedroia. Had he deigned to play that game, he'd have won ten Super Bowls by now.

 

[OttoC]

Okay, soxprospects.com has callup dates.

Xander Bogaerts called up 8/19, first played 8/20
Joey Gathright called up 9/1/2009 first played 9/2/2009...

 
In Gathright's case, the PawSox were on the road playing Lehigh Valley (PA) om 8/3l. That was a Friday and they were undoubtedly playing a night game. The length of the game was 2+50, so assuming they started at 7:05, the game ended at 9:55 p.m. The Red Sox ended their homestand on 8/30 and opened in Tampa Bay on 9/1. Did Gathright go directly from PA to FL or did he go from PA to RI to FL? Maybe the Red Sox simply decided to give him a rest after the traveling he had done. Anyway, he was a September call-up so there probably was no pressing need to play him.
 
When considering this, you probably need to consider whether the call-up is vital (and in the case of a pitcher, when he last worked), where the respective teams were/were going to be at the time, and what route the player travels (if he is reporting to Boston, they might let him drive).

 

[BosRedSox5]

Let's stop this Tanaka is a rookie BS.
 
Rookies don't make $20MM a year out of the gate.

 
Yeah, maybe they should change the rules to where you're disqualified from the ROY if you've played in a professional league (outside of the farm systems obviously) before. If you dominated NPB or the Cuban leagues it's hard to really say you're a rookie. 

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

 
Yeah, maybe they should change the rules to where you're disqualified from the ROY if you've played in a professional league (outside of the farm systems obviously) before. If you dominated NPB or the Cuban leagues it's hard to really say you're a rookie. 

I'm with you.

People forget that Jackie Robinson was the first ROY. He played in the Negro Leagues when they were filled with talented players.

 

[richgedman'sghost]

 
Yeah, maybe they should change the rules to where you're disqualified from the ROY if you've played in a professional league (outside of the farm systems obviously) before. If you dominated NPB or the Cuban leagues it's hard to really say you're a rookie. 

If I'm not mistaken and I very well could be, I thought the NHL had a rule where if a player played for a certain amount of years overseas in Europe and then came over to the US,  he would be ineligible for rookie of the year. This topic also arose when Ichiro was a rookie with Seattle but it seemed not to affect him or his candidacy.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

If I'm not mistaken and I very well could be, I thought the NHL had a rule where if a player played for a certain amount of years overseas in Europe and then came over to the US,  he would be ineligible for rookie of the year. This topic also arose when Ichiro was a rookie with Seattle but it seemed not to affect him or his candidacy.

 
The NHL rule for rookies is they must be under 26 as of September 15 of their first NHL season.

 

[nvalvo]

So, Betts went 1/3, with a walk, a run scored, a GIDP, and a caught stealing where he seemed to lose his footing for a second. The swing and bat speed translated well, and I was quite impressed with his eye on the walk. 
 
I'd never noticed his weird batting sneer watching him in Hadlock. 

 

[JohntheBaptist]

This topic also arose when Ichiro was a rookie with Seattle but it seemed not to affect him or his candidacy.

It arose but came more to a head in 2003, when Angel Berroa beat out Hideki Matsui because a few writers left him off their ballot.

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

This topic also arose when Ichiro was a rookie with Seattle but it seemed not to affect him or his candidacy.

 
Nor Kazuhiro Sasaki with the M's.

 

[Rasputin]

[QUOTE="Hriniak]
 
Nor Kazuhiro Sasaki with the M's.
[/QUOTE]
And Hideo Nomo says hello.

 

[DJnVa]

Okay, let's save the rookie debate for another thread---Betts after the game said he was nervous and it was nice to sit for a night and get acclimated.
 
As to the CS, he said he was told not to change anything in how he played, so I wonder if that steal was on his own. Maybe he was told if there are 2 outs, it's his call. He did play the Ichiro liner into a triple, but I can live with that as a learning experience.

 

[RedOctober3829]

I thought he looked relaxed and not overmatched at the plate. Yeah he botched the Ichiro play, but the way he played the ball off the wall and almost threw out Gardner at 2nd was impressive. He'll struggle some, but they needed to do this.

 

[SouthernBoSox]

All of his at bats where quality after the first one.  He slipped on his caught stealing.
 
Can we talk about that throw from right for a second? That may have been more encouraging than anything we saw.

 

[Flunky]

I figure the throw beats most guys other than Gardner there.

 

[RedOctober3829]

All of his at bats where quality after the first one.  He slipped on his caught stealing.
 
Can we talk about that throw from right for a second? That may have been more encouraging than anything we saw.

It was just an easy motion.  He got the ball off the wall, took one step and threw it.  It was a laser right on line(which could have been cut off by Pedroia if it was a different play which is almost as important as a strong throw) to 2nd base and would have thrown out pretty much every other runner in the AL.  For not being very experienced in right field and having no experience in YS at all, that was a big-time play.  If he's going to be in the OF full-time, I can't wait to see him next season after a full offseason and ST. 

 

[yecul]

With two outs and being on first I think attempting a steal is perfectly fine in that spot. He stumbled, but still made McCann make a good throw to get him.
 
He looked good at the plate. Absolutely no issues there on the performance or approach.
 
The play on Ichiro's hit was not good. That kind of thing has to be expected. He he made a boneheaded play at 2B then we could be more critical. 
 
I never saw this as a desperation move at all. He can add value to the ML club and helps fill a need. It's not the picture perfect scenario to get him up, but so be it.

 

[bankshot1]

Lets assume that Vic comes back after the AS-break. and  for the sake of discussion Mookie progresses and sticks, would he displace Nava/Gomes in LF, or does he remain in RF and Vic due to hammy concerns takes the less challenging LF (at least in Fenway).
 
And if Mookie sticks, is Gomes all but gone by the trading dead-line?

 

[Super Nomario]

Lets assume that Vic comes back after the AS-break. and  for the sake of discussion Mookie progresses and sticks, would he displace Nava/Gomes in LF, or does he remain in RF and Vic due to hammy concerns takes the less challenging LF (at least in Fenway).
 
And if Mookie sticks, is Gomes all but gone by the trading dead-line?

I would think sending Bradley down would be the easiest move, if he's still hitting as poorly as he is now.

 

[KillerBs]

Very hard to guess on roster implications of this now and it is plain there are going to be some tough decisions to make here.
 
Betts' call up puts the heat on no fewer than 7 of the 13 position players on the 25 man: Herrera, Drew, Bogaerts, Holt, Bradley, Nava, Gomes. I would guess Herrera would be the first to go on Victorino's return, but that would assume they are prepared to shift X into and out off SS periodically, which seems reasonable to me.
 
If that is not in the cards, I think they may well option JBJ before dumping Gomes, simply because out of concerns for clubhouse chemistry. That would leave something like this
 
vs RHPers
 
LF Nava
CF Betts
RF Holt or Victorino
 
vs LHPers
 
LF Gomes
CF Betts
RF Victorino
 
...which could work out but has the serious drawback of putting Holt on the bench 1/2 the time, which seems hard to imagine at this time.

 

[ALiveH]

the ichiro play i thought was a very tough one.  He was playing shallow, Ichiro hit a laser.  It was getting by him no matter what.  By diving for it he played a sure double into a triple.  One base isn't a disaster.  Given the new position and that he was in an awkward position on the play (can also blame the coaches for playing him too shallow), that would have been a tough situation for even a ML veteran.
 
The CS might have been a little nervousness too, and even with the stumble (i didn't notice it but i'll take your guys word for it) it was a very close play.
 
The hitting approach was plus-plus.  I think that was super-advanced for his age (reminded me of bogaerts last year).
 
The raw talent is definitely there.  Once he gets the butterflies and nervousness out, he'll be making some big plays with bat, glove, arm and speed.

 

[Al Zarilla]

I would think sending Bradley down would be the easiest move, if he's still hitting as poorly as he is now.

A lot of the sentiment in the game threads is that JBJ's play in CF, possibly like a Piersall, gasp or, Andruw Jones, gasp, gives him the grace period to try to improve his hitting with the big club. If he were to go down, who plays CF? Mookie, who has played 27 ml games there? Vic is no guarantee to do any more this year, and he's not great in CF anyway. I suppose BROCKHOLT could play center too, but expecting gold from him in whatever position they put him, and good hitting too, has to expire someday, doesn't it? I say keep JBJ in center. If he drops below the Mendoza line again? I don't know.
 
Those that have seen Mookie play OF in the minors, what do you think (especially in CF, which he'd probably be playing if JBJ went down)?

 

[Super Nomario]

A lot of the sentiment in the game threads is that JBJ's play in CF, possibly like a Piersall, gasp or, Andruw Jones, gasp, gives him the grace period to try to improve his hitting with the big club.

How long do you want his grace period to last? We're almost 300 PAs in, and he's dead last among AL qualifiers in OPS and OPS+. If he's still sporting a sub-.600 OPS when Victorino comes back, how much more rope can they give him?
 

If he were to go down, who plays CF? Mookie, who has played 27 ml games there? Vic is no guarantee to do any more this year, and he's not great in CF anyway. I suppose BROCKHOLT could play center too, but expecting gold from him in whatever position they put him, and good hitting too, has to expire someday, doesn't it? I say keep JBJ in center. If he drops below the Mendoza line again? I don't know.
 
Those that have seen Mookie play OF in the minors, what do you think (especially in CF, which he'd probably be playing if JBJ went down)?

Mookie's played more CF than RF in AAA. Holt, Victorino, and Nava have spent some time there, though none is an ideal solution on an everyday basis.
 
The Red Sox have the third-worst offense in the AL. There might be teams that have enough offense to carry JBJ's noodle bat in exchange for his defense; this Boston team isn't one of them.

 

[SouthernBoSox]

The diagnoses om Victornio was "we believe he'll play again this season"

Weare talking about a scenario that won't present itself for a very long time.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

The diagnoses om Victornio was "we believe he'll play again this season"

Weare talking about a scenario that won't present itself for a very long time.

 
Which is most likely why the call up for Betts happened when it did.  I don't think it's a coincidence that he was called up more or less the same day they shut Victorino down again.

 

[mt8thsw9th]

It arose but came more to a head in 2003, when Angel Berroa beat out Hideki Matsui because a few writers left him off their ballot.

 
Lost in that brouhaha was the fact that Berroa actually had the better season (and the three players behind both of them arguably had better seasons than Berroa or Matsui). 

 

[JimBoSox9]

Here's a stat that blew my mind, courtesy of Gordo:
 

Holt, Bradley, Xander Bogaerts and now Betts. Four rookies breaking into the lineup of the defending World Series champions. Only one defending champion in the past 70 years has had even three rookies play 40 or more games the following season, and that was the 1998 Florida Marlins, who stripped their team of stars for financial reasons. 

 
The 2014 Firesale Red Sox.  Who knew? 

 

[geoduck no quahog]

Cause/Effect:
 
WMB injury: Holt
Victorino injury: Bradley
Bradley Suckage/Victorino Injury: Betts
Drew declines to sign, then signs

 

[Hee Sox Choi]

Prospect of the Day from Sickels:
 
http://www.minorleagueball.com/2014/6/30/5853046/prospect-of-the-day-mookie-betts-2b-boston-red-sox-scouting-report

 

[foulkehampshire]

Here's a stat that blew my mind, courtesy of Gordo:
 
 
 
The 2014 Firesale Red Sox.  Who knew? 

 
Firesale? No, it's injuries and under performance that have forced the hand. 

It's really remarkable that the team was competitive last year and went all the way. Most of our projections estimated a 3-5 year window to reassert this team as playoff-caliber. I see nothing about this year that has deviated from the path that we expected Cherington's 
FO to take, besides maybe the Drew reactionary signing. But hell, it was only money, and the the team needed a warm (and probably) capable body. Holt's performance has somewhat mitigated that, but hindsight is 20/20. 
 
Trying to trade away dead-weight veterans (Peavy, AJP)  to clear up space for high-upside mlb ready players isn't exactly screaming "firesale" to me.

 

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

So, Betts went 1/3, with a walk, a run scored, a GIDP, and a caught stealing where he seemed to lose his footing for a second. The swing and bat speed translated well, and I was quite impressed with his eye on the walk. 
 
I'd never noticed his weird batting sneer watching him in Hadlock. 

 
The sneer was a surprise to me on TV, as well. Funny how you watch a guy in person a few times and completely miss something like that until you see him on TV.

 

[joyofsox]

I noticed it too, but it seemed like the left side of his upper lip is slightly higher than the right. I don't think he was actually sneering.

 

[nvalvo]

I noticed it too, but it seemed like the left side of his upper lip is slightly higher than the right. I don't think he was actually sneering.

 
It's not a criticism. It's just distinctive, like Papi spitting on his hands, or Pedroia doing that eye-stretching thing between pitches, or Gomes jostling his helmet, or Jed Lowrie smoothing the dirt with his feet. The kinds of idiosyncratic tics that give the game texture and its players personality. 

 

[ookami7m]

I noticed it too, but it seemed like the left side of his upper lip is slightly higher than the right. I don't think he was actually sneering.

 
 

 
It's not a criticism. It's just distinctive, like Papi spitting on his hands, or Pedroia doing that eye-stretching thing between pitches, or Gomes jostling his helmet, or Jed Lowrie smoothing the dirt with his feet. The kinds of idiosyncratic tics that give the game texture and its players personality. 

 
He does it in the field too, just more off and on. It seems to be a tic he has like nvalvo mentions.  In his interviews and photos (such as the one with his first hit ball) it's not there. 

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

Prospect of the Day from Sickels:
 
http://www.minorleagueball.com/2014/6/30/5853046/prospect-of-the-day-mookie-betts-2b-boston-red-sox-scouting-report

 
I guess Sickels isn't convinced yet :q: :
 

 
What's not to like? He seems completely legitimate to me. I'd rate Betts as a Grade A- prospect currently, with a Top 20 ranking on the revised hitting prospect list that I'll release in mid-July. This doesn't mean he'll hit .300 right away in the majors and I doubt he develops into a big home run guy, but his OBP ability, pure hitting skills, at least decent pop, polished aggression on the bases, and defensive versatility make him one of the most exciting young players in the baseball universe.

 

[EricFeczko]

How long do you want his grace period to last? We're almost 300 PAs in, and he's dead last among AL qualifiers in OPS and OPS+. If he's still sporting a sub-.600 OPS when Victorino comes back, how much more rope can they give him?
 
Mookie's played more CF than RF in AAA. Holt, Victorino, and Nava have spent some time there, though none is an ideal solution on an everyday basis.
 
The Red Sox have the third-worst offense in the AL. There might be teams that have enough offense to carry JBJ's noodle bat in exchange for his defense; this Boston team isn't one of them.

Herrera would absolutely be the first to go in this instance; he's like JBJ minus the defense.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

He could use a little more practice with the CF wall at Fenway.

 

[Super Nomario]

Herrera would absolutely be the first to go in this instance; he's like JBJ minus the defense.

That depends on how they feel about Holt's D at SS or Bogaerts' ability to ping-pong between SS and 3B - they've been reluctant to do either of those. If JBJ continues to hit so poorly that he can't be used as a regular CF, I think he's better off playing every day in Pawtucket than playing a couple times a week in Boston.

 

[EricFeczko]

That depends on how they feel about Holt's D at SS or Bogaerts' ability to ping-pong between SS and 3B - they've been reluctant to do either of those. If JBJ continues to hit so poorly that he can't be used as a regular CF, I think he's better off playing every day in Pawtucket than playing a couple times a week in Boston.

I completely agree, especially with the last statement. I think with Betts/Holt versatility, you can shift both around the infield/outfield, while giving other players off. At the same time, I'd reduce Nava/Gomes playing time and giving those at-bats to Betts/Holt.
Betts could play SS if given the chance, and I'd rather see him there than Herrera, which is more of an indictment on the awfulness of Herrera than Betts present defensive ability at shortstop.

 

[Super Nomario]

I completely agree, especially with the last statement. I think with Betts/Holt versatility, you can shift both around the infield/outfield, while giving other players off. At the same time, I'd reduce Nava/Gomes playing time and giving those at-bats to Betts/Holt.
Betts could play SS if given the chance, and I'd rather see him there than Herrera, which is more of an indictment on the awfulness of Herrera than Betts present defensive ability at shortstop.

I don't think Betts is a realistic option at SS. He hasn't played there since Lowell and has made 9 errors in 14 games there as a professional. Holt has played SS at every level of the minors, and Bogaerts has the most MLB SS experience; those both seem like better options in the event they decide Herrera is superfluous.

 

[LogansDad]

 
Firesale? No, it's injuries and under performance that have forced the hand. 

It's really remarkable that the team was competitive last year and went all the way. Most of our projections estimated a 3-5 year window to reassert this team as playoff-caliber. I see nothing about this year that has deviated from the path that we expected Cherington's 
FO to take, besides maybe the Drew reactionary signing. But hell, it was only money, and the the team needed a warm (and probably) capable body. Holt's performance has somewhat mitigated that, but hindsight is 20/20. 
 
Trying to trade away dead-weight veterans (Peavy, AJP)  to clear up space for high-upside mlb ready players isn't exactly screaming "firesale" to me.

Almost positive that JimBo's "firesale" comment was tongue in cheek.

 

[JimBoSox9]

 
Firesale? No, it's injuries and under performance that have forced the hand. 

It's really remarkable that the team was competitive last year and went all the way. Most of our projections estimated a 3-5 year window to reassert this team as playoff-caliber. I see nothing about this year that has deviated from the path that we expected Cherington's 
FO to take, besides maybe the Drew reactionary signing. But hell, it was only money, and the the team needed a warm (and probably) capable body. Holt's performance has somewhat mitigated that, but hindsight is 20/20. 
 
Trying to trade away dead-weight veterans (Peavy, AJP)  to clear up space for high-upside mlb ready players isn't exactly screaming "firesale" to me.

 
Well golly gee, thanks for setting me straight on my entirely serious usage of the term.  Is "who knew?" truly not a recognizable form?  How sad.  Emoticons for all, then.

 

[CreightonGubanich]

 
 
 
He does it in the field too, just more off and on. It seems to be a tic he has like nvalvo mentions.  In his interviews and photos (such as the one with his first hit ball) it's not there. 

 
With the mouth thing, he's a dead ringer for Darren Lewis at the plate. 

 

[Sprowl]

The Ellsbury sob stories have been moved here.
 
 
FWIW, Betts was one of the few Red Sox to make solid contact off Arrieta, slashing an opposite-field liner directly at the rightfielder.

 

[Rasputin]

 
With the mouth thing, he's a dead ringer for Darren Lewis at the plate. 

 
No he isn't. Darren Lewis was completely fucked up looking while Mookie looks like D'Artagnan.

 

[Rasputin]

 
My brother and I used to call him the Squirrel. Dude was weird looking when he hit. 

 
Which was when, exactly?

 

[Nite Vizhun UV]

 
My brother and I used to call him the Squirrel. Dude was weird looking when he hit. 

 
 

 
Which was when, exactly?

 
 
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes.