Mayo: Season 1

ekim colorwaterpit

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What if the Patriots are potentially interested in trading for Fields. Might be a good way to get some Intel. Or Mayo is trying to get different perspectives on different systems. Never a bad idea to interview more people as long as your hire the right person.
 

Cellar-Door

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The Bears have one of the worst offenses in the NFL. Why would we want the guy in charge of it? (Yes it’s an upgrade over the offense NE had this year but still…)
He was Jordan Love's QB coach for two years, then Justin FIelds saw some pretty massive improvement in his 2nd and 3rd year performance when Getsy came in.
I'm not a huge fan of his playcalling in CHI, but he has a good track record as a QB developer, and it may be that some of the issue in CHI (beyond lack of talent) was directives from management or HC to not run Fields more.
Looking at them, they came in around 22nd in DVOA, despite the overall weak talent and having to play Bagent 5 games (numbers were better with Fields, guess is if he plays the whole year they break into the teens which for that roster.... not bad).

Unrelated, but I didn't see Brian Fleury (49ers) on the list, he's getting an interview... he was a defensive coach, but then pulled a Patricia/Raheem Morris and has been on offense under Shanahan.

And finally.....
Marquice Williams is out as a ST option, he's staying in ATL with Raheem Morris.
 

nattysez

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I'm excited that they seem determined to hire an OC from outside the organization. They need that fresh offensive blood in the building.
 

NomarsFool

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I've been always been a fan of the Peter principle, but in reverse. So, look for people who were highly touted coordinators, went somewhere to be the HC, and flamed out. McDaniels would be a good example of that - there are probably others out there, too. Bill O'Brien fit that mold, too, but that didn't really work out for us this most recent go around. I'm getting a little concerned the staff is too junior. With the youngest head coach in the NFL, I'd sort of like coordinators who were a bit more grizzled.
 

DJnVa

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I've been always been a fan of the Peter principle, but in reverse. So, look for people who were highly touted coordinators, went somewhere to be the HC, and flamed out. McDaniels would be a good example of that - there are probably others out there, too. Bill O'Brien fit that mold, too, but that didn't really work out for us this most recent go around. I'm getting a little concerned the staff is too junior. With the youngest head coach in the NFL, I'd sort of like coordinators who were a bit more grizzled.
McDaniels is likely still sorta in the running of OC. He's not that old, but knows his way around. That would allow Mayo to worry a bit less about the offense. However McDaniels isn't a McVay guy, obviously, and based on the other interviews, that's what they want.
 

Skeptikal

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Per Reiss: "Caley, the former longtime Patriots tight ends coach who interviewed for the team's offensive coordinator job in 2022, is viewed by some close to the process as well-positioned to ultimately lead the offense. "
link
 

rodderick

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Caley as a guy to bridge the gap between the system they ran under Bill and the Shanahan/McVay stuff isn't a horrible plan, I just don't think there's a gap to be bridged there. You're basically starting over on offense.
 

tims4wins

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Caley would be supremely underwhelming to me. The Pats passed him over in 2022 and chose Patricia/Judge. One year of experience under McVay and he's ready to be the OC? Maybe he was ready all along and BB should have hired him in 2022 (hiring Patricia/Judge obviously didn't work out) and Mayo saw that at the time. I dunno. This doesn't give me huge optimism.

I really hope the Belichick boys are back on the staff.
 

brendan f

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Caley would be supremely underwhelming to me. The Pats passed him over in 2022 and chose Patricia/Judge. One year of experience under McVay and he's ready to be the OC? Maybe he was ready all along and BB should have hired him in 2022 (hiring Patricia/Judge obviously didn't work out) and Mayo saw that at the time. I dunno. This doesn't give me huge optimism.
Not sure how we can be optimistic or pessimistic when we know so little about the offense at this point. We don't know who the QB is, who the offensive line coach is, what the O-Line looks like, who most of our receivers are, who our tight ends are. We know next to nothing. And we aren't in the room so we don't know what Caley's vision is for the offense (or anyone else's vision for that matter). The most important thing is one of these candidates having a vision for the offense and teaming with Mayo and the FO to help execute that vision. We don't know what that is so not sure how we can have a take on it at this point.
 

tims4wins

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Not sure how we can be optimistic or pessimistic when we know so little about the offense at this point. We don't know who the QB is, who the offensive line coach is, what the O-Line looks like, who most of our receivers are, who our tight ends are. We know next to nothing. And we aren't in the room so we don't know what Caley's vision is for the offense (or anyone else's vision for that matter). The most important thing is one of these candidates having a vision for the offense and teaming with Mayo and the FO to help execute that vision. We don't know what that is so not sure how we can have a take on it at this point.
That's all fair. I just don't see Nick Caley on anyone's "up and coming" list, and he also doesn't have any coordinator experience yet. I'll remain hopeful, and I think the players are ultimately more important.
 

MuppetAsteriskTalk

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I'm getting more and more skeptical of the entire offseason to this point, but will keep an open mind and see what happens. But I can see the potential for a season that makes last seasons performance look respectable.
 

rodderick

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Yeah, I think the past few years have shown us pretty definitively that a coaching staff can only cover up for so much if you don't have the personnel. Ultimately Mayo will succeed or fail based on the quality of the roster that's in place, particularly the quarterback. Just like every other coach.
 

DJnVa

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Caley would be supremely underwhelming to me. The Pats passed him over in 2022 and chose Patricia/Judge. One year of experience under McVay and he's ready to be the OC? Maybe he was ready all along and BB should have hired him in 2022 (hiring Patricia/Judge obviously didn't work out) and Mayo saw that at the time. I dunno. This doesn't give me huge optimism.

I really hope the Belichick boys are back on the staff.
This is fair but I can't judge things by what BB did that one season with Patricia. It's just so out of whack.

Hot young OC gotta get their start somewhere I suppose.
 
Oct 12, 2023
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Yeah, I think the past few years have shown us pretty definitively that a coaching staff can only cover up for so much if you don't have the personnel. Ultimately Mayo will succeed or fail based on the quality of the roster that's in place, particularly the quarterback. Just like every other coach.
which, to me, is why Caley is such an odd choice (if he is the choice). He has no experience working with or developing QB. No experience calling plays. He’s been almost exclusively a TE coach and has no track record of developing or improving any TE talent.

the Pats, under Mayo, will go as far as their new QB takes them. It’s almost impossible to win consistently or compete for the playoffs without quality QB play. It’s concerning that the head coach is a defense guy and the potential OC has no experience with young QB development.
 

Cellar-Door

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Caley may well be a good pick, but it is a bit concerning that there have been TONs of OC interviews around the league, the top candidates (like Robinson) had 7, 8 teams interviewing them. Caley has interviewed with 1 team, the Patriots. Not a single one of the many teams looking for OCs even asked to interview him.

Now he was here a long time, maybe Mayo has a great relationship with him, maybe he and the front office guys know him much better and know he'll be great. But I'd be a little bit concerned about going with a 1st time OC that nobody else is interested in, and who wasn't even 1st in line on his own team if they needed an internal promotion.
 

EL Jeffe

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Caley is a perfectly fine, middle of the fairway pick. He has a reasonable floor as an OC in that he has 2 years as an offensive assistant and then 7 years as a TE coach (where he was involved in run, pass, and red zone game planning). He knows what he's doing, versus say, a Matt Patricia.

Getting passed over here twice for OC definitely impacted people's perceptions of him. I chalk up the Patricia hiring to Bill being Bill, and then it sounds like last year the job was always going to Bill O'Brien's. I don't think either decision was a reflection on Caley. All of the reporting on him, both here and in LA, has been that he's really well thought of.

And while systems and play calling absolutely matter, it's a player driven league. If NE doesn't get a difference making QB, sort out the OT spots, and get a couple of receivers who can make plays, the OC isn't going to matter. They also need a real QB coach, an OL coach, a WR coach, TE coach, and RB coach. Ones who know what they're doing would be a nice change of pace.
 

Justthetippett

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Caley may well be a good pick, but it is a bit concerning that there have been TONs of OC interviews around the league, the top candidates (like Robinson) had 7, 8 teams interviewing them. Caley has interviewed with 1 team, the Patriots. Not a single one of the many teams looking for OCs even asked to interview him.

Now he was here a long time, maybe Mayo has a great relationship with him, maybe he and the front office guys know him much better and know he'll be great. But I'd be a little bit concerned about going with a 1st time OC that nobody else is interested in, and who wasn't even 1st in line on his own team if they needed an internal promotion.
Doesn't help that the best Caley could hope for elsewhere is a position coach assignment, and definitely has the feel of insularity that was the criticism of Bill towards the end of his tenure. Mayo is taking the guy he knows instead of bringing in some new blood with new ideas, etc. He just did the same for DC. Now, that insularity worked for many years, so maybe the criticism is overblown, but I agree, the skepticism is completely valid.

The pressure on Mayo is going to be significant this year. Vrabel is still out there, Krafts are antsy, etc. I am sure they want this to be a stable, decade-plus arrangement, but if he looks overwhelmed in year 1, the push to "blow it up" is going to be strong.
 
Oct 12, 2023
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Caley is a perfectly fine, middle of the fairway pick. He has a reasonable floor as an OC in that he has 2 years as an offensive assistant and then 7 years as a TE coach (where he was involved in run, pass, and red zone game planning). He knows what he's doing, versus say, a Matt Patricia.

Getting passed over here twice for OC definitely impacted people's perceptions of him. I chalk up the Patricia hiring to Bill being Bill, and then it sounds like last year the job was always going to Bill O'Brien's. I don't think either decision was a reflection on Caley. All of the reporting on him, both here and in LA, has been that he's really well thought of.

And while systems and play calling absolutely matter, it's a player driven league. If NE doesn't get a difference making QB, sort out the OT spots, and get a couple of receivers who can make plays, the OC isn't going to matter. They also need a real QB coach, an OL coach, a WR coach, TE coach, and RB coach. Ones who know what they're doing would be a nice change of pace.
Patricia had 2 years of offensive assistant and a few years as a head coach where presumably he was involved in offensive game planning. Which isn’t to say he was a good choice for OC but assuming Caley has a “reasonable floor” seems like a stretch based on his resume.

And yes, you’re right to some degree that it’s a player driven league but having a coordinator who can develop and utilize his young talent is critical to their development. Having an inexperienced OC with no experience calling plays or working with QBs, and no obvious success at developing young talent at his position group being the guy you’re entrusting rebuilding a broken offense is a risky choice.

Lastly, while players matter, the league is filled with teams who have offensive talent and have cycled through coordinators because the coaching failed to get them to perform. Matt Canada being an obvious very recent example.

One would think/hope that a team with a totally broken offense that needs to develop a new young QB could do better/aim higher than a TE coach with no experience doing the things the Pats desperately need.

He might work out, if he’s the choice, but he’s hardly a safe or reasonable floor choice. McDaniels would be the “reasonable floor”candidate IMO.
 

EL Jeffe

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Caley was responsible for weekly red zone game planning in NE so to say he had no experience working with QBs is quite a stretch. Pretty sure QBs are in the room for those sessions.

Going from TE coach to OC is en vogue and something Scarnecchia has talked quite a bit about. None other than offensive darling Ben Johnson literally just went that route--seems like it worked out okay.

As far as calling plays, the only way you're getting an OC with play calling experience is to hire a retread. Caley knows Mayo, he knows the front office, and he knows the players. That's certainly a start. He's a safer bet than Jerrod Johnson or Brian Fleury, some of the other names floating around. I just don't get the notion that Caley has no experience doing the things NE desperately needs. Yeah, McDaniels seems like he'd be a perfectly good choice but it doesn't sound like there's any interest there. Howe said he'd be at the top of NE's list, so I'm guessing McDaniels is passing. What candidate are they magically going to get who has vast experience and success doing the things you think NE desperately needs?
 

EL Jeffe

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What was the time frame on this? Post-O'Shea?
I know he was doing it at the end of his NE tenure. I'm not sure when it began though. Iirc, it was discussed in a Do Your Job team video, and I believe there were also some articles written about it.
 

Cellar-Door

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I know he was doing it at the end of his NE tenure. I'm not sure when it began though. Iirc, it was discussed in a Do Your Job team video, and I believe there were also some articles written about it.
https://www.pressherald.com/2022/09/20/patriots-notebook-plenty-of-hands-cooking-up-offensive-game-plans/

This is what I found... seems like he was lead on scouting 3rd downs for gameplan work, but he kind of downplays exactly what that means.

I think with any position coach jumping to coordinator you'll have a lot of unknowns, guys who have done everything an OC does and done it well are rare. Not even all OCs do what we would want an OC to do (look at all the OCs for teams with offensive playcaller HCs).

I think Caley's level of experience is fine. I'd probably prefer a guy who has worked with QBs more. I also to be honest would like a fresh start on offense. The idea of bringing in Caley feels a lot like it's about getting in a guy they know over getting in the best guy to implement the best system. That worries me a bit. Some continuity/familiarity is good, but hiring all guys who were 3rd tier assistants here feels like you're just shrinking the pond of influences and ideas smaller and smaller.
 

Was (Not Wasdin)

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This whole offseason seems rushed, but without any sense of urgency. The parting with BB seemed to be on an accelerated timeline, but everything else feels like it is moving in slow motion.
 

Cellar-Door

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This whole offseason seems rushed, but without any sense of urgency. The parting with BB seemed to be on an accelerated timeline, but everything else feels like it is moving in slow motion.
I think they thought BoB was staying. Though I will say, league wide the progress has been pretty slow because of the new interview rules holding up the ability to interview assistants from playoff teams (usually frontrunners for most HC/Coordinator jobs, and guys holding off to see if a spot opens from one of those guys getting a job).
 

j44thor

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As far as calling plays, the only way you're getting an OC with play calling experience is to hire a retread. Caley knows Mayo, he knows the front office, and he knows the players.
While I tend to agree that a TE coach is a viable path to OC given the responsibilities involved I do have to question the value and validity of Caley knowing the players. What players of importance does Caley know that are likely to be here next season? Rham and Strange maybe Andrews? He doesn't know Pop who is the only WR under contract that should be here more than 1 more season. None of the QBs he knows are worth a damn and no one else on offense is under contract including Bourne and Henry.

If anything knowing the players that were here when Caley was here is a detriment as they are the reason Bill is no longer here.
 

CoolPapaLaSchelle

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I think they thought BoB was staying. Though I will say, league wide the progress has been pretty slow because of the new interview rules holding up the ability to interview assistants from playoff teams (usually frontrunners for most HC/Coordinator jobs, and guys holding off to see if a spot opens from one of those guys getting a job).
Having to wait to interview assistants on active playoff teams is definitely one of the blockers. Another was likely waiting for BB to land another job. This surely would impact the cast of holdovers who might or might not be available. If Caley does not sign this week after the in-person interviews (or Tanner Engstrand, I guess), it would strongly suggest they are targeting Fleury or Kubiak.
 

EL Jeffe

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While I tend to agree that a TE coach is a viable path to OC given the responsibilities involved I do have to question the value and validity of Caley knowing the players. What players of importance does Caley know that are likely to be here next season? Rham and Strange maybe Andrews? He doesn't know Pop who is the only WR under contract that should be here more than 1 more season. None of the QBs he knows are worth a damn and no one else on offense is under contract including Bourne and Henry.

If anything knowing the players that were here when Caley was here is a detriment as they are the reason Bill is no longer here.
I think that's a little bit of an oversimplification. As OC, he'd likely have input into some key FAs, like Onwenu, Henry, Trent Brown and Bourne. If Rhamondre is someone to extend. Can Parker have a role or is he a sunk cost. Knowing the players isn't some sort of big difference maker or anything, but it does give him some unique insight.

I'm also not the president of the Nick Caley fan club or anything. He wouldn't have been my first choice, but I stand by saying he's a reasonable choice who i don't envision being any sort of disaster.
 

Cellar-Door

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I think that's a little bit of an oversimplification. As OC, he'd likely have input into some key FAs, like Onwenu, Henry, Trent Brown and Bourne. If Rhamondre is someone to extend. Can Parker have a role or is he a sunk cost. Knowing the players isn't some sort of big difference maker or anything, but it does give him some unique insight.

I'm also not the president of the Nick Caley fan club or anything. He wouldn't have been my first choice, but I stand by saying he's a reasonable choice who i don't envision being any sort of disaster.
I don't think he'd be a disaster, but I think the overall strategy is one that makes disaster more likely. This is a rare chance to really expand the coaching network. The Patriots have had basically a reverse triangle of coaching talent... guys leave, they take a few of the lower/middle level guys... not all come back, but the Patriots don't add anyone outside the very bottom level... just talent bleed throughout the offensive staff in particular. If you go to someone who has history outside the org you're likely getting guys from their network with them. If you bring in Caley.... he has no real network, he was here his whole career then was the 3rd or 4th banana in LA for one season, any guys leaving LA are probably going with Robinson who was above them for several years and has deeper relationships.

This is a rare opportunity for New England to completely re-set the offense.
You;re getting a new OC, there will be a huge overhaul of the talent... basically only a few guys under contract and most of the important spots including QB don't have long term solutions in place.
The smart move to me is to go out and get someone who will bring his own talent with him on the coaching staff and a wider net to cast going forward.

Say you hire Fleury.... he probably has a real shot of bringing Cregg or Graves with him to be the new O-line coach and implement his scheme.

Say you hire Kubiak.... he's almost certainly bringing his brother as QB coach right? He might even get Fleury to come over for a year with the offer of something like Run game (or pass game) coordinator, he also could bring one of the assistant O-line coaches. Plus you can look at guys he worked with 3,4,5, 6 years ago who are other places who might feel blocked where they are and come here. Caley doesn't have that to bring to the table... except maybe some guys who were low level in NE a few years ago? I guess maybe someone like O'Shea who was ahead of him, but that might be a tough dynamic.
 

Justthetippett

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Add Klint Kubiak (49ers passing game coordinator, former OC in Minnesota) and Scott Turner (Raiders passing game coordinator) to the mix:

View: https://twitter.com/tkyles39/status/1751987157529432509?s=46
Kubiak is exciting. 9ers receivers led the league in separation in 2023. Purdy has obviously been excellent but he's also put in positions to succeed. Shanahan's assistants have also been very good when elevated elsewhere (Slowik most recently).
 

j44thor

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I'm surprised we aren't hearing much about BAL coaches under Monken getting much interest. Perhaps that is partly due to the playoffs just ending but we are hearing about multiple BAL Defensive coaches getting interviews. You'd think teams would be interested in poaching from the offensive side as well given how much Monken seemed to elevate a rather pedestrian skill position group. Obviously Lamar has something to do with that but the offense was much improved this year. If I'm brining in one of the top 3 QBs in the draft I would want someone that has worked with mobile QBs or can put a plan together for a mobile QB as they are all capable of making plays outside the pocket and off platform.
 

Cellar-Door

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I'm surprised we aren't hearing much about BAL coaches under Monken getting much interest. Perhaps that is partly due to the playoffs just ending but we are hearing about multiple BAL Defensive coaches getting interviews. You'd think teams would be interested in poaching from the offensive side as well given how much Monken seemed to elevate a rather pedestrian skill position group. Obviously Lamar has something to do with that but the offense was much improved this year. If I'm brining in one of the top 3 QBs in the draft I would want someone that has worked with mobile QBs or can put a plan together for a mobile QB as they are all capable of making plays outside the pocket and off platform.
Is it a pedestrian skill group? Andrews is a top 5 TE, they added a 1st round rookie WR, had a previous 1st round WR, added OBJ... that's a good group. And... teams are unlikely to have Lamar Jackson, so I'm not sure a below average passing attack with a great run game is as attractive to teams looking for coaches when they are unlikely to have an elite running QB to slot into it.
 

8slim

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I'm surprised we aren't hearing much about BAL coaches under Monken getting much interest. Perhaps that is partly due to the playoffs just ending but we are hearing about multiple BAL Defensive coaches getting interviews. You'd think teams would be interested in poaching from the offensive side as well given how much Monken seemed to elevate a rather pedestrian skill position group. Obviously Lamar has something to do with that but the offense was much improved this year. If I'm brining in one of the top 3 QBs in the draft I would want someone that has worked with mobile QBs or can put a plan together for a mobile QB as they are all capable of making plays outside the pocket and off platform.
Small sample recency bias for sure, but after what I saw from Monken yesterday… pass.
 

j44thor

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Small sample recency bias for sure, but after what I saw from Monken yesterday… pass.
BAL WR coach Greg Lewis interviewing for Saints OC position. Yes the Greg Lewis who "played" for NE after being acquired from PHI for a 5th rd pick in 2009 draft. He only played pre-season and was released, one of the worst trades of the Bill B era.

Could be an interesting coach though, had a 6yr career as a WR with Andy Reid's Eagles plus two seasons in MN then coached RBs/WRs under Reid in KC for a couple years prior to joining the BAL staff.

Probably not the first name that comes to mind when one thinks of ties to NE. Not sure he has OC chops yet but will be a fun one to watch if only for the NE connection. I don't think anything will top the Sanu trade but this was close.
 
Oct 12, 2023
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BAL WR coach Greg Lewis interviewing for Saints OC position. Yes the Greg Lewis who "played" for NE after being acquired from PHI for a 5th rd pick in 2009 draft. He only played pre-season and was released, one of the worst trades of the Bill B era.

Could be an interesting coach though, had a 6yr career as a WR with Andy Reid's Eagles plus two seasons in MN then coached RBs/WRs under Reid in KC for a couple years prior to joining the BAL staff.

Probably not the first name that comes to mind when one thinks of ties to NE. Not sure he has OC chops yet but will be a fun one to watch if only for the NE connection. I don't think anything will top the Sanu trade but this was close.
One of the worst trades in the Bb era is a bit of a stretch. They traded pick 159 for Lewis and 2010 pick 231. There were by my rough count about 15 guys from 159 to the end of the 2009 draft that had meaningful careers (including career special teamers, punters and guys who only had limited success in their 2nd or 3rd stop). Edelman, Jason McCourty and Matt Slauson were the only impact guys to come out of late round 5-7.

Trading a late 5th rounder for a 7th and a guy who was a competent #4 with some starting experience and had the skill set they liked when he came out of college and fit their scheme while their #3 and 4 receivers were Sam Aiken and Matthew Slater seems like exactly the type of low risk moderate upside type deal teams should do more often.

That 2009 receiving group after Moss and Welker was unbelievably bad heading into camp. The corpse of Joey Galloway, special teams only Aiken and Slater, injured rookie Tate, no name rookie QB conversion Edelman. Edelman beat out Lewis and Lewis didn’t have the special teams ability needed to stick as WR4 or 5.

Bill made a bunch of those late round picks for fringe veteran types. Sometimes they worked, sometimes they didn’t.

Guys they acquired where the primary outgoing compensation was a 4th rounder or lower: Keshawn Martin, Akeem Ayers, Jonathan Casillas, Kyle Van Noy, Dwayne Allen, James OShaugnessy, Greg Salas, Johnson Bademosi, Marquis Flowers, Jason McCourty, Cassius Marsh, Ted Washington, Andre Davis, Doug Gabriel, Randy Moss, Josh Gordon, Alex Smith, Quinn Ojinnaka, Tracy White, Jarrad Page, Deion Branch, Ochocinco, Aqib Talib, Legarrette Blount, Michael Williams, Jon Bostic, Martellus Bennett, Eric Rowe

most of those worked out pretty well. Lewis is clearly amongst the worst of that group but the strategy of trading low picks for change of scenery guys was always a strength of BB and the cost was minimal.