Logan Mankins, Bill Parcells, and Mike Vrabel named 2023 Patriots HOF Finalists

ifmanis5

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Agreed with the above.
Bill's Grocery Shopping presser, calling Terry Glenn 'she' and his Packers SB debacle are all worthy of disqualification. It's possible to thank the guy for his credibility and input but it's also possible not to immortalize the guy in your team's HOF.
Plus the fact that all the usual grumpy old men are mad proves that it was the right call. Hope he stays out.
 

JokersWildJIMED

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Oct 7, 2004
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The thing is, the argument that all those bitter hacks are making is "Parcells saved the franchise from moving!"

Which is patent nonsense.

After the 5-11 1992 season, the team was absolutely moving to St. Louis, with Parcells and Bledsoe in tow. They had uniforms all ready and everything!:

View attachment 64366
It was the 1993 season they went 5-11, not 1992. The argument is not that Parcells saved the franchise from moving, but that Parcells gave the Patriots instant credibility, which eventually allowed Kraft to out-maneuver Orthwein to keep the the team locally. By the end of the 1992 season the Patriots had lost the fanbase (a somewhat key factor in actually moving an NFL franchise to another city)...would Kraft had bothered to pressure Orthwein to honor the lease(s) if Orthwein had instead hired another Rod Rust and was floundering with a continuing diminishing fanbase and season tickets in the toilet? Or would he have just gone the Cleveland / Houston / LA route and eventually got another franchise after the NEP were allowed to go to St. Louis? I know you were around, but anyone who wasn't here in the 70s / 80s/ 90s cannot truly understand the general disfunction of the team and how it was viewed around the league, and how that instantly changed the day Parcells took over.

I was as mad as anyone after the Green Bay Super Bowl, but it is certainly possible (and probably likely) that there would be no NEP (as we know them) and no 6 Super Bowls, without Parcells. He certainly deserves to be in Patriots HOF.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Yes, 1992 was a typo. I was there for the finale in '93, OT winner to Timpson. Everyone knew they were leaving.

I must disagree with you wholeheartedly on Parcells and his impact. 32-32 in 4 years here, sabotaged a SB on the way out and took Curtis Martin with him.

It was really only 4 bad years. I think that's what gets overlooked. 5-11, 1-15, 6-10, 2-14. Yes they sucked. Yes, the post-SB20 hangover was awful. But the idea that the franchise had been a smoldering crater forever is entirely misguided.

Again, it bears repeating: if Bob Kraft does not buy the team in 1993/94, then Bill Parcells is coaching the St. Louis Stallions in the 1994/95 season, with Drew Bledsoe as his QB. Parcells didn't save shit. Bob Kraft did.
 

BigJimEd

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Jan 4, 2002
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Yes, 1992 was a typo. I was there for the finale in '93, OT winner to Timpson. Everyone knew they were leaving.

I must disagree with you wholeheartedly on Parcells and his impact. 32-32 in 4 years here, sabotaged a SB on the way out and took Curtis Martin with him.

It was really only 4 bad years. I think that's what gets overlooked. 5-11, 1-15, 6-10, 2-14. Yes they sucked. Yes, the post-SB20 hangover was awful. But the idea that the franchise had been a smoldering crater forever is entirely misguided.

Again, it bears repeating: if Bob Kraft does not buy the team in 1993/94, then Bill Parcells is coaching the St. Louis Stallions in the 1994/95 season, with Drew Bledsoe as his QB. Parcells didn't save shit. Bob Kraft did.
This. 1000x this.

Parcells was a mediocre coach here whose impact on the franchise is grossly overstated.
 

ifmanis5

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sabotaged a SB on the way out and took Curtis Martin with him.
And to the division rival Jets no less(!), where both were pretty successful against the Pats.
Parcells also turned around that joke franchise (for a while at least) and did the same with the Cowboys after that and he had already done the same for the Giants before that. BP is more than qualified for the NFL HOF, one of the best to do it in fact, but he stuck a large knife into the Pats at a Super Bowl and on his way out. Kraft buying the team and doing a huge overhaul finally put it on the course to respectability. It might be a bit of spite to keep him out but I'm fine with that spite.
 

8slim

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It was the 1993 season they went 5-11, not 1992. The argument is not that Parcells saved the franchise from moving, but that Parcells gave the Patriots instant credibility, which eventually allowed Kraft to out-maneuver Orthwein to keep the the team locally. By the end of the 1992 season the Patriots had lost the fanbase (a somewhat key factor in actually moving an NFL franchise to another city)...would Kraft had bothered to pressure Orthwein to honor the lease(s) if Orthwein had instead hired another Rod Rust and was floundering with a continuing diminishing fanbase and season tickets in the toilet? Or would he have just gone the Cleveland / Houston / LA route and eventually got another franchise after the NEP were allowed to go to St. Louis? I know you were around, but anyone who wasn't here in the 70s / 80s/ 90s cannot truly understand the general disfunction of the team and how it was viewed around the league, and how that instantly changed the day Parcells took over.

I was as mad as anyone after the Green Bay Super Bowl, but it is certainly possible (and probably likely) that there would be no NEP (as we know them) and no 6 Super Bowls, without Parcells. He certainly deserves to be in Patriots HOF.
Kraft owned the stadium and enforced the lease. He wanted to own the team, and used that leverage over Orthwein. I don't think Kraft would have cared if the team had gone 0-16 for 4 years running, he wanted to own the team.

Parcells absolutely reinvigorated the Pats. No question. But Kraft is 100% why the team didn't move to St. Louis.
 

lexrageorge

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Jul 31, 2007
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I don't blame Parcells for Curtis Martin. The Pats management team had ample opportunity extend/resign Martin ahead of his free agency. All is fair game in free agency; yes, the Jets offer was sneaky difficult to match, but the Pats left themselves vulnerable to just such a situation.
 

Hoya81

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Yes, 1992 was a typo. I was there for the finale in '93, OT winner to Timpson. Everyone knew they were leaving.

I must disagree with you wholeheartedly on Parcells and his impact. 32-32 in 4 years here, sabotaged a SB on the way out and took Curtis Martin with him.

It was really only 4 bad years. I think that's what gets overlooked. 5-11, 1-15, 6-10, 2-14. Yes they sucked. Yes, the post-SB20 hangover was awful. But the idea that the franchise had been a smoldering crater forever is entirely misguided.

Again, it bears repeating: if Bob Kraft does not buy the team in 1993/94, then Bill Parcells is coaching the St. Louis Stallions in the 1994/95 season, with Drew Bledsoe as his QB. Parcells didn't save shit. Bob Kraft did.
I certainly agree that Kraft is the most responsible for saving the team, but the 1989-1992 stretch is among the worst for any team in league history. They were blacked out on local tv 29 times over that stretch. Combine that with the Kiam’s erratic ownership and the Lisa Olson incident and smoking crater seems appropriate.
 

BaseballJones

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Goodness. Not that we have to go down this road, but I'm curious.... If the Pats HAD moved to St. Louis, which NFL team would SOSHers have rooted for? The St. Louis Stallions? The NY Giants? Nobody?

It's so hard to even fathom that world, but it was a real possibility.
 

Ferm Sheller

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Goodness. Not that we have to go down this road, but I'm curious.... If the Pats HAD moved to St. Louis, which NFL team would SOSHers have rooted for? The St. Louis Stallions? The NY Giants? Nobody?

It's so hard to even fathom that world, but it was a real possibility.
I recall planning to become a fan of the Montreal Alouettes.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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I certainly agree that Kraft is the most responsible for saving the team, but the 1989-1992 stretch is among the worst for any team in league history. They were blacked out on local tv 29 times over that stretch. Combine that with the Kiam’s erratic ownership and the Lisa Olson incident and smoking crater seems appropriate.
Of course, it was dark times. They were farcical at times.

But it was only four years.
 

Hoya81

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Goodness. Not that we have to go down this road, but I'm curious.... If the Pats HAD moved to St. Louis, which NFL team would SOSHers have rooted for? The St. Louis Stallions? The NY Giants? Nobody?

It's so hard to even fathom that world, but it was a real possibility.
Somewhat related is the very real possibility that there likely still wouldn’t be a team in Boston/New England. After all the team moves in 1990s, it very easy to see the league giving up on the region as a viable NFL market. At best they’d have been 3rd behind LA and Houston for potential expansion or relocation. Possibly even lower given how hard the public and the legislature went against the proposed Megaplex complex in Southie and anything beyond the minimal public money used for Gillette’s construction.
 

8slim

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Of course, it was dark times. They were farcical at times.

But it was only four years.
I think because the franchise was run so damn poorly, even when there was success on the field, there's been a retroactive belief that the team always stunk. I mean between 1976 and 1988 the team had just one losing season.

What Parcells and Bledsoe did was solidify the fanbase. We all know the Pats were 4th among the 4 local pro teams in terms of support. That began to change when we finally hired a real head coach and drafted a real NFL QB.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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I think because the franchise was run so damn poorly, even when there was success on the field, there's been a retroactive belief that the team always stunk. I mean between 1976 and 1988 the team had just one losing season.

What Parcells and Bledsoe did was solidify the fanbase. We all know the Pats were 4th among the 4 local pro teams in terms of support. That began to change when we finally hired a real head coach and drafted a real NFL QB.
From 1965-76 they had just one winning season.

From 76-88 they had just one losing season.

They had 5 losing seasons in a row from 89-93.

And then from 1994-2023 they've had only four losing seasons.

They do like to do things in bunches.
 

Bowhemian

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Goodness. Not that we have to go down this road, but I'm curious.... If the Pats HAD moved to St. Louis, which NFL team would SOSHers have rooted for? The St. Louis Stallions? The NY Giants? Nobody?

It's so hard to even fathom that world, but it was a real possibility.
I would have been just a casual fan of the NFL with no favorite team. Well, maybe I would have rooted for the 49ers, but not even close to the way I root for the Pats now, and always have.
 

Ale Xander

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Oct 31, 2013
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This. 1000x this.

Parcells was a mediocre coach here whose impact on the franchise is grossly overstated.
He did draft 2 Hall of Famers in 1 draft, including one in the 3rd round and the other not in the first 20 picks. (2 of 6 HOF in the entire draft) Yes, one left. But the other stayed and was one of the keys in the first SB win (the most non-ST iconic play of the game) and was still very good in #2 and #3.
 

Prodigal Sox

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He did draft 2 Hall of Famers in 1 draft, including one in the 3rd round and the other not in the first 20 picks. (2 of 6 HOF in the entire draft) Yes, one left. But the other stayed and was one of the keys in the first SB win (the most non-ST iconic play of the game) and was still very good in #2 and #3.
If that's the case why did he complain about not being able to shop for the groceries. It was one of his stated reasons for leaving.
 

Ale Xander

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If that's the case why did he complain about not being able to shop for the groceries. It was one of his stated reasons for leaving.
Kraft wanted offense, Parcells wanted Brackens, (in 1996, the year after the Law/Martin draft). Glenn was drafted, I suppose the "she" comment wouldn't have been made if the choice was purely Parcells' but that's conjecture.

Parcells was basically the GM but still overruled/vetoed by the owner.
 
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NortheasternPJ

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Kraft wanted offense, Parcells wanted Brackens, (in 1996, the year after the Law/Martin draft). Glenn was drafted, I suppose the "she" comment wouldn't have been made if the choice was purely Parcells' but that's conjecture.

Parcells was basically the GM but still overruled/vetoed by the owner.
Brackens was drafted 33rd overall. The Pats had the 36th pick. I don’t know what’s worse if Parcells drafted Brackens at 7 or the fact the guy he wanted at 7 was there at 33 and he couldn’t move up 3 slots. Granted he got Milloy so the 36 was a good pick but this being the basis for him leaving shows he was a diva.
 

Shelterdog

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Kraft wanted offense, Parcells wanted Brackens, (in 1996, the year after the Law/Martin draft). Glenn was drafted, I suppose the "she" comment wouldn't have been made if the choice was purely Parcells' but that's conjecture.

Parcells was basically the GM but still overruled/vetoed by the owner.
So the Brackens story was always dubious to me. I have to go back and look at it but the initial reporting by mcdonough was I think that BB wanted Cedric Jones (drafted 5 and before the patriots) or maybe Duane Clemons (drafted 16, also a bust). Here's actually a 1997 NY Times story reporting it. https://www.nytimes.com/1997/04/17/sports/with-parcells-gone-the-patriots-grier-calls-the-shots.html McDonnough was I think in the draft room and certainly reported on it the day after the draft and i'm ninety percent certain he mentioned Jones and Clemons but not Bracken. There's also some stuff out there saying Parcells wanted Kevin Hardy, but Hardy went 2 so who knows.

Brackens was picked 33 and not really seen as a top ten guy, but he went and had about 7 sacks and was very close to being rookie of the year. After Brackens had this great rookie season that's when Parcells started saying i wanted Brackens.

EDIT: There is a mcdonough story from early 1997 (after Brackens had his good rookie year) in which he claims Kraft told him pre draft that hte pats were going to take brackens, clemons or jones and parcells told the same to McDonough- so that definitely adds credibility to the Brackens was in consideration at draft time theory, but then again not sure i totally beleive anything mcdonough says especially since he hated him some kraft and loved him some parcells. if someone can find his immediate post draft article that would help. http://archive.boston.com/globe/packages/year_in_review/sports/parcellsquits.htm
 
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Rick Burlesons Yam Bag

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Yes, 1992 was a typo. I was there for the finale in '93, OT winner to Timpson. Everyone knew they were leaving.

I must disagree with you wholeheartedly on Parcells and his impact. 32-32 in 4 years here, sabotaged a SB on the way out and took Curtis Martin with him.

It was really only 4 bad years. I think that's what gets overlooked. 5-11, 1-15, 6-10, 2-14. Yes they sucked. Yes, the post-SB20 hangover was awful. But the idea that the franchise had been a smoldering crater forever is entirely misguided.

Again, it bears repeating: if Bob Kraft does not buy the team in 1993/94, then Bill Parcells is coaching the St. Louis Stallions in the 1994/95 season, with Drew Bledsoe as his QB. Parcells didn't save shit. Bob Kraft did.
I was in Providence until nearly the end of the '93 season living with a guy whose family were diehard season ticket holders and I totally forgot about the St. Louis stuff.

Where would people in the Boston-Providence corridor have gone to smoke meth on Sundays if they had shut down Foxboro????