Logan Mankins, Bill Parcells, and Mike Vrabel named 2023 Patriots HOF Finalists

cornwalls@6

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I think the Patriots HOF is a very overblown thing, but since there is one, Bill Parcells absolutely belongs in it. He left here in a pretty sleazy way, and playing footsie with the Jets while preparing for the Super Bowl was a major asshole move. But, the franchise was a complete laughingstock before he(and Bledsoe) got here in 1993. They haven’t spent a day as one since. He brought instant credibility, and was an early catalyst of the golden era. And I say that as someone who came to view him as, historically, a somewhat overrated coach. But he’s a very important figure in Patriots history.
 

hube

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Apr 4, 2010
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I thought about this long and hard last night, and no matter what, I come to the same damned conclusion:

Fuck Bill Parcells.
There really is no other conclusion. Ending that super bowl season the way he did and then salting the earth with the Martin contract? Absolute forever villain status.
 

tims4wins

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I think the Patriots HOF is a very overblown thing, but since there is one, Bill Parcells absolutely belongs in it. He left here in a pretty sleazy way, and playing footsie with the Jets while preparing for the Super Bowl was a major asshole move. But, the franchise was a complete laughingstock before he(and Bledsoe) got here in 1993. They haven’t spent a day as one since. He brought instant credibility, and was an early catalyst of the golden era. And I say that as someone who came to view him as, historically, a somewhat overrated coach. But he’s a very important figure in Patriots history.
I dunno, pretty sure they were still a laughingstock on September 23, 2001. They declined from 11 to 10 to 9 to 8 to 5 wins, were 5-13 under BB, and no one even liked the hire to begin with. They still played in a dump of a stadium (though I concede the new one was under construction). Pretty sure respect toward the franchise was near zero around the league at thst point in time.
 

cornwalls@6

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I dunno, pretty sure they were still a laughingstock on September 23, 2001. They declined from 11 to 10 to 9 to 8 to 5 wins, were 5-13 under BB, and no one even liked the hire to begin with. They still played in a dump of a stadium (though I concede the new one was under construction). Pretty sure respect toward the franchise was near zero around the league at thst point in time.
I don’t think it was anything like late 80s/early 90s level of dysfunction. Stable ownership was in place, as you note the new stadium was underway, they made the playoffs under Carroll, and I think any fans who were paying attention recognized BB was doing a needed roster overhaul in 2000( though obviously no one anticipated such quick, dramatic results). I think the overall perception and culture of the franchise was much worse in McPherson/Rust era .
 

tims4wins

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I don’t think it was anything like late 80s/early 90s level of dysfunction. Stable ownership was in place, as you note the new stadium was underway, they made the playoffs under Carroll, and I think any fans who were paying attention recognized BB was doing a needed roster overhaul in 2000( though obviously no one anticipated such quick, dramatic results). I think the overall perception and culture of the franchise was much worse in McPherson/Rust era .
That is fair, everything is relative. But perception still had to be bottom 5 of the league at the point when Mo hit Drew. IIRC Dr. Z ranked the Pats last in his power rankings after that game.
 

JokersWildJIMED

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In 2000 /2001 things had dramatically changed from the early 1990s, and it was far different from what was going on in the early 90s. Most know, but some forget, that the team was literally done here in the early 1990s and Orthwein had bought the team specifically to move to St. Louis...it was a done deal and although Kraft eventually out-maneuvered Orthwein, it is highly questionable whether Kraft would have bothered (probably would have waited a few years for either try for a new franchise or pilfer another) if things didn't dramatically change. Other than the die hard fans (and there were not enough of them) most people in New England did not care. Parcells brought instant credibility and the atmosphere changed the moment of his first press conference. The stadium was filled and Parcells did an amazing things with the roster. Heck, going to the playoffs in 1994 seemed like a miracle at the time, and that was followed by the SB two years later. Sure it ended as bad as it could possibly end, but it is certainly highly likely that the actual New England Patriot franchise of the 2000s would not have existed without Parcells.
 

cornwalls@6

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That is fair, everything is relative. But perception still had to be bottom 5 of the league at the point when Mo hit Drew. IIRC Dr. Z ranked the Pats last in his power rankings after that game.
That’s a fair point. I guess the last argument I would make for Parcells would be the number of players he drafted and developed , who were huge contributors to the first part of the dynasty: Bruschi, Willy, Ted Johnson, Law, Vinatieri, Milloy, etc. A big core of their early titles.
 

tims4wins

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That’s a fair point. I guess the last argument I would make for Parcells would be the number of players he drafted and developed , who were huge contributors to the first part of the dynasty: Bruschi, Willy, Ted Johnson, Law, Vinatieri, Milloy, etc. A big core of their early titles.
Similar to the Duke before Theo.

But how much say did BP have in those picks? I mean, that’s literally the reason he left.
 

cornwalls@6

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Similar to the Duke before Theo.

But how much say did BP have in those picks? I mean, that’s literally the reason he left.
Yeah, that’s a legit question. IIRC, it was specifically the drafting of Christian Peter in ‘96 that caused the rift, but maybe his authority on draft picks wasn’t total before that.
 

rodderick

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I can only accept Welker getting dinged by his Super Bowl drop if Logan Mankins doesn't get anywhere near the Hall by the same criteria. Had the two worst games in his career at the biggest stage, a huge part of the reason they lost both. Welker was their offensive MVP in Super Bowl 42.
 

BigSoxFan

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Welker clearly deserves the Patriots HOF nomination based on the merits of his on-field play but he did have that crack back block on Talib in 2013 AFCCG that cost us dearly so let’s make him wait a few more years.
 

Justthetippett

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In 2000 /2001 things had dramatically changed from the early 1990s, and it was far different from what was going on in the early 90s. Most know, but some forget, that the team was literally done here in the early 1990s and Orthwein had bought the team specifically to move to St. Louis...it was a done deal and although Kraft eventually out-maneuvered Orthwein, it is highly questionable whether Kraft would have bothered (probably would have waited a few years for either try for a new franchise or pilfer another) if things didn't dramatically change. Other than the die hard fans (and there were not enough of them) most people in New England did not care. Parcells brought instant credibility and the atmosphere changed the moment of his first press conference. The stadium was filled and Parcells did an amazing things with the roster. Heck, going to the playoffs in 1994 seemed like a miracle at the time, and that was followed by the SB two years later. Sure it ended as bad as it could possibly end, but it is certainly highly likely that the actual New England Patriot franchise of the 2000s would not have existed without Parcells.
Basically had to accept the bad with the good with Parcells. He was supremely talented but also egotistical. An excellent motivator who also pushed too hard at times. I hope he looks back at the GB SB with regret. It was his last SB appearance as well and he got in his own way. I don't care if he's in the hall or not, but he's an important part of the franchise's history and bad blood generally isn't good for business.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Welker seems like a great candidate in my unqualified and worthless opinion, but he sat the fourth quarter because the Broncos were getting demolished.
This is all 100% correct, but because they are only letting in one guy per year, the guys with rings are going to get elected first.

Edit: except the Broncos Super Bowl part. He caught 3 balls for 26 yards in the first half as the Broncos fell behind 29-0.
Oh, duh. Got my SBs mixed up. I'll leave it in because fuck it.
 

NortheasternPJ

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Welker played for the Rams in 2015, the year Denver won the Super Bowl over Carolina.

Welker has played in three Super Bowls:

- Pats 17-14 loss to the Giants in '08 (2007 season): 11 rec, 103 yds, 9.4 y/c
- Pats 21-17 loss to the Giants in '12 (2011 season): 7 rec, 60 yds, 8.6 y/c
- Broncos 43-8 loss to the Seahawks in '14 (2013 season): 8 rec, 84 yds, 10.5 y/c

That's it. I mean, it's great that he's played in three Super Bowls - tons of guys never get to play in one, never mind three. But he's never won one.

That being said, his time with New England was off...the...charts.

6 seasons: 672 rec, 7,459 yds, 11.1 y/c, 37 td
Avg season: 112 rec, 1,243 yds, 11.1 y/c, 6 td


That's absurd.
Everyone loves Patriots HoF Troy Brown, but Welker put up more receptions, yards and TD's in 6 seasons vs Brown 14 in New England. I know counting stats aren't everything but Welker should be a slam dunk Patriots HoF. I really don't know how anyone watched him play here would argue, but here we are. Welker was a machine.
 

Pandemonium67

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Welker also gets a ding for his footsie jokes about Rex, which led to his being benched for the first quarter of what was one of the worst losses of the entire dynasty.

Though I blame BB for that.

Overall, it seems that some are forgetting how incredible Welker was. And the dude was one of the toughest little shits ever. Man did he take a beating, and yet he delivered.
 

tims4wins

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This Parcells stuff reminded me of my feeling when Kraft called Parcells "The greatest coach in the history of modern times".
The rift was already there. He was gone. Felt like Bob was placating him. I was like "Screw Him". Anyway, cool I found it on YouTube.

View: https://youtu.be/eA114fO9w0M?t=9741
Go to 2:22:30. The O-t-i-s fumble return. Jesus fuck that place was LOUD.
 

BigJimEd

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I dunno, pretty sure they were still a laughingstock on September 23, 2001. They declined from 11 to 10 to 9 to 8 to 5 wins, were 5-13 under BB, and no one even liked the hire to begin with. They still played in a dump of a stadium (though I concede the new one was under construction). Pretty sure respect toward the franchise was near zero around the league at thst point in time.
Honestly, the Parcells savior stuff was always way overblown. Much more media creation. Entertaining press conferences but very mediocre coach. Way down the list of those belonging in Pats HoF.
 

Pablo's TB Lover

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This Parcells stuff reminded me of my feeling when Kraft called Parcells "The greatest coach in the history of modern times".
The rift was already there. He was gone. Felt like Bob was placating him. I was like "Screw Him". Anyway, cool I found it on YouTube.

View: https://youtu.be/eA114fO9w0M?t=9741
During the Parcells interview, the camera cuts to Zolak saying something very brief to Bledsoe. I kind of want it to either be 'Gone' or 'Asshole'.
 

gattman

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Honestly, the Parcells savior stuff was always way overblown. Much more media creation. Entertaining press conferences but very mediocre coach. Way down the list of those belonging in Pats HoF.
Agreed. The Pats as a laughingstock thing is overblown. From 76-78 they were a terrific team (if we’re considering Parcells for the Pats HOF then Fairbanks is right there with him— they were a laughingstock before Fairbanks, he brought credibility and a winning culture. And then he abandoned them in season). Aside from one season they were solid from 79-84. Then very good under Berry in 85 & 86 and decent in 87 & 88. During a 13 year stretch (76-88) they had only 1 losing season and made the playoffs 5 times.

Then they were a laughingstock for four years. But it was more than Parcells. First there was Sam Jankovich to be the adult in the room and bring some professionalism to the organization. And Charley Armey was, I think, an underrated part of that time (even though he was only there for three years) as the Director of Player Personnel. He did a pretty damn good job shopping for groceries (as he did for the Rams later).

And, of course, the biggest person during that time was Kraft. Orthwein had a deal to move them to StL and Kraft swooped in. Kraft was going to buy the team regardless of who the coach was. It’s not like he bought the team because Parcells was the coach.

I also think some people whitewash Parcells’ lesser moments— like keeping Bledsoe in the SF game in ‘95 after he had separated his shoulder because “durr, tuff”.

And in the biggest moment in Pats history up to that point, he put himself ahead of the team. Which, to me at least, is the ultimate no-no for a coach.

He’s a Pro Football Hall of Famer, but not a Pats one, if that makes any sense (& yes, I am STILL pissed at Fairbanks re: 78. That team was great).
 

rodderick

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Exactly. I don’t see any arguments that Walker deserves to get in over Vrabel. Because he doesn’t.
Solely by individual performance I think he 100% has a case. Six seasons, 5 Pro Bowls, two first team All-Pros, two second team All-Pros. 86 AV in New England. In Vrabel's eight seasons he made one Pro Bowl, one first team All-Pro and accumulated 66 AV.
 

tims4wins

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Solely by individual performance I think he 100% has a case. Six seasons, 5 Pro Bowls, two first team All-Pros, two second team All-Pros. 86 AV in New England. In Vrabel's eight seasons he made one Pro Bowl, one first team All-Pro and accumulated 66 AV.
Again true although this doesn’t take into account playoffs, where Vrabel had immense contributions.
 

SemperFidelisSox

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The biggest concern I would have with Parcells is that when he goes up to make the speech it gets stolen by Desmond Howard because Bill wasn’t prepared for it.
 

rodderick

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Again true although this doesn’t take into account playoffs, where Vrabel had immense contributions.
I honestly think in terms of outright production and performance with the team Law, Seymour, Gronk and Brady are pretty much the only guys I'd put ahead of Welker in the past 30 years. Of course, playoff performance, titles, all that plays a part, but going by the sole criteria of "how well he played for the Patriots", Welker is way up there.

On the whole I always thought Wes was more productive, dependable and consistent then Edelman, for instance, but Edelman took over games in the playoffs while Welker really didn't (I guess he did in Super Bowl 42, but we know what happened there) and that plays a huge part in their legacies.
 

tims4wins

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I honestly think in terms of outright production and performance with the team Law, Seymour, Gronk and Brady are pretty much the only guys I'd put ahead of Welker in the past 30 years. Of course, playoff performance, titles, all that plays a part, but going by the sole criteria of "how well he played for the Patriots", Welker is way up there.
That's a fair statement. Hard to quantify production for guys like Light and Wilfork but they'd probably be on my short list too.
 

Bigdogx

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Parcells for me, this franchise was the leagues door mat and he instantly started to turn things around. His draft classes were also the building blocks of their first 3 titles imo.

As was said above, the man is getting no younger, and if there is no animosity and he is willing, i would hope they would forgo giving it to younger player who have many years left to be around to receive this achievement and recognize the man who actually put this place back on the map somewhat.
 

Saints Rest

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Welker played for the Rams in 2015, the year Denver won the Super Bowl over Carolina.

Welker has played in three Super Bowls:

- Pats 17-14 loss to the Giants in '08 (2007 season): 11 rec, 103 yds, 9.4 y/c
- Pats 21-17 loss to the Giants in '12 (2011 season): 7 rec, 60 yds, 8.6 y/c
- Broncos 43-8 loss to the Seahawks in '14 (2013 season): 8 rec, 84 yds, 10.5 y/c

That's it. I mean, it's great that he's played in three Super Bowls - tons of guys never get to play in one, never mind three. But he's never won one.

That being said, his time with New England was off...the...charts.

6 seasons: 672 rec, 7,459 yds, 11.1 y/c, 37 td
Avg season: 112 rec, 1,243 yds, 11.1 y/c, 6 td

That's absurd.
Wally Pipp, indeed.
 

ColdSoxPack

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I'm sure Shank already has his column written about how Parcells gets screwed again by needy Bob Kraft who thinks he invented football.
 

Caspir

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I’m really glad a bunch of shit writers are going to be upset. I’m even more glad fuck face Parcells isn’t getting any type of celebration from the Patriots because he can fuck off. Vrabel deserved it. He was such a core piece of the defense (and goal line offense!). Hope they’re able to find a way for him to attend whatever ceremony they have.
 

Ed Hillel

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Hopefully Parcells gets nominated every year and loses to someone actually deserving. This is a good first step.
 

Justthetippett

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Does Parcells even care about this honor? If he did, he could come out and express some contrition for his actions leading up to that SB. That would probably be enough.
 

Shaky Walton

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Ordway, Shank, and Borges were all throwing Twitter temper tantrums over this yesterday.

You love to see it.
And it's fun to seem them all getting schooled. It's not complicated. When your "I" gets put before "team" in the two weeks before the SB, you become permanently disqualified from the Pats HOF. AND it's true, you did bring respectability to the Pats and set them on their course. Thanks for that. No HOF for that. But, yes, thank you.

The CHB is also whining but for him it's another chance to take cheap shots at Kraft, who must have peed in his punch bowl at some point.
 
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Shelterdog

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Parcells was a big deal for the franchise when he came and did give it credibility because the franchise was such a disaster but honestly, someone who was a solid coach here for four years doesn't belong in a team hall of fame. And I say that as someone who absolutely believes he deserves his spot in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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The thing is, the argument that all those bitter hacks are making is "Parcells saved the franchise from moving!"

Which is patent nonsense.

After the 5-11 1992 season, the team was absolutely moving to St. Louis, with Parcells and Bledsoe in tow. They had uniforms all ready and everything!:

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