Logan Mankins, Bill Parcells, and Mike Vrabel named 2023 Patriots HOF Finalists

tims4wins

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It’s Vrabel for me.

Mankins was a great player here for 10 years. But zero rings.

Without Vrabel, there is no dynasty.
 

Van Everyman

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Am I the only person who thinks this stuff is a little silly? I mean, it is fun -- taking my daughter to the Pats HOF several years ago (right after the Falcons SB IIRC) was a complete blast, she loved it and I was, frankly, blown away by it. But the drama over who belongs in this sacred hall seems a bit ridiculous to me.

Edit: Of the three, Vrabel for me as well. But also, can it be only one person? What is this process? Is it only fans voting?
 

lexrageorge

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I would consider Parcells because his remaining time on this planet is likely to be fairly short. It would be easier to justify his election if it didn't come as an alternative to Vrabel and Mankins, who are more deserving, IMO. I would give Vrabel the vote this year, and Mankins next; get them both in before the big deluge.
 

Caspir

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Parcells is behind a list of 50 people that didn't quit on the team during the Super Bowl while stealing a franchise player and running to fucking New Jersey. Fuck his age, fuck his accomplishments, he can eat shit, and should never be celebrated by this franchise.

Vrabel all the way. Mankins is the second most deserving ringless Patriot from the 2000's, but he is behind a bunch of people for me.
 

DJnVa

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Am I the only person who thinks this stuff is a little silly? I mean, it is fun -- taking my daughter to the Pats HOF several years ago (right after the Falcons SB IIRC) was a complete blast, she loved it and I was, frankly, blown away by it. But the drama over who belongs in this sacred hall seems a bit ridiculous to me.
Is there drama?
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Parcells was a .500 coach here who planned his retreat to the Jets during Super Bowl week instead of game-planning. He can get into the Pats HoF after Scott Sisson, who at least tried to help the team win games.
 

Bergs

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Just ducking in to say "fuck Bill Parcells".

Fuck Bill Parcells.

There.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Parcells is an important piece of Patriot history, but his impact is hard to measure because it isn't based purely on wins or losses. Yes, he brought the team to a SB, but he went 32-32 in his four years here. Berry also brought the Pats to a SB and went 48-39, but I can't imagine Berry making the Pats HoF.

Parcells effect on the organization was wide reaching and impactful, but the majority of it was for the success he brought outside of coaching. His name actually gave the team some respect in NFL circles. He, for varying reasons, was the catalyst to getting Belichick here.

And while those things are great, he also mailed in the fucking SUPERBOWL so he could plan his departure to a division rival. And let's not forget that he didn't just "bring Curtis Martin" with him. He crafted one of the most infamous poison pill contracts to steal him from the Patriots. He was also a giant douchebag to Terry Glenn because the team drafted Glenn and not a defensive tackle Parcells wanted. Glenn obviously had plenty of issues, but having your own head coach gunning for you couldn't have been easy, and a small piece of me wonders how it effected Glenn and his career.

Since there's no reason to vote for him based on the onfield production, and the off field negatives (at best) balance out the positives, I'm not even sure why he's on the ballot.
 

Saints Rest

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Parcells is behind a list of 50 people that didn't quit on the team during the Super Bowl while stealing a franchise player and running to fucking New Jersey. Fuck his age, fuck his accomplishments, he can eat shit, and should never be celebrated by this franchise.

Vrabel all the way. Mankins is the second most deserving ringless Patriot from the 2000's, but he is behind a bunch of people for me.
Just pin this post to the top, and then close the thread.
 

Scott Cooper's Grand Slam

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Parcells effect on the organization was wide reaching and impactful, but the majority of it was for the success he brought outside of coaching. His name actually gave the team some respect in NFL circles. He, for varying reasons, was the catalyst to getting Belichick here.


For this reason alone, Parcells deserves to be on the ballot and is a reasonable candidate for induction.

And while those things are great, he also mailed in the fucking SUPERBOWL so he could plan his departure to a division rival. And let's not forget that he didn't just "bring Curtis Martin" with him. He crafted one of the most infamous poison pill contracts to steal him from the Patriots. He was also a giant douchebag to Terry Glenn because the team drafted Glenn and not a defensive tackle Parcells wanted. Glenn obviously had plenty of issues, but having your own head coach gunning for you couldn't have been easy, and a small piece of me wonders how it effected Glenn and his career.
For these reasons, I'd be OK if he never got in.

It's impossible to tell the story of the New England Patriots without talking about Bill Belichick, and BB's story is diminished if you don't refer to Parcells. As far as the Patriots HoF is concerned, it seems most accurate for Parcells' name to only show up on BB's plaque. "Belichick was the 12th head coach of the NEP. He succeeded Bill Parcells. BB was an assistant to Parcells from 1983-1990 with the New York Giants, winning Super Bowls XXI and XXV [yada yada Lawrence Taylor]." Then you have to tell the story of BB's stint with the NYJ and The Napkin (non-John Burkett division).
 

tims4wins

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For this reason alone, Parcells deserves to be on the ballot and is a reasonable candidate for induction.



For these reasons, I'd be OK if he never got in.

It's impossible to tell the story of the New England Patriots without talking about Bill Belichick, and BB's story is diminished if you don't refer to Parcells. As far as the Patriots HoF is concerned, it seems most accurate for Parcells' name to only show up on BB's plaque. "Belichick was the 12th head coach of the NEP. He succeeded Bill Parcells. BB was an assistant to Parcells from 1983-1990 with the New York Giants, winning Super Bowls XXI and XXV [yada yada Lawrence Taylor]." Then you have to tell the story of BB's stint with the NYJ and The Napkin (non-John Burkett division).
That's like saying Mo Lewis should be in the Pats hall of fame. I realize that BB would never have come to NE if Parcells wasn't here, but c'mon. If you are inducting Parcells it's because he put the Pats on the map, not because he brought BB with him in 1996.
 

Justthetippett

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Parcells is an important piece of Patriot history, but his impact is hard to measure because it isn't based purely on wins or losses. Yes, he brought the team to a SB, but he went 32-32 in his four years here. Berry also brought the Pats to a SB and went 48-39, but I can't imagine Berry making the Pats HoF.

Parcells effect on the organization was wide reaching and impactful, but the majority of it was for the success he brought outside of coaching. His name actually gave the team some respect in NFL circles. He, for varying reasons, was the catalyst to getting Belichick here.

And while those things are great, he also mailed in the fucking SUPERBOWL so he could plan his departure to a division rival. And let's not forget that he didn't just "bring Curtis Martin" with him. He crafted one of the most infamous poison pill contracts to steal him from the Patriots. He was also a giant douchebag to Terry Glenn because the team drafted Glenn and not a defensive tackle Parcells wanted. Glenn obviously had plenty of issues, but having your own head coach gunning for you couldn't have been easy, and a small piece of me wonders how it effected Glenn and his career.

Since there's no reason to vote for him based on the onfield production, and the off field negatives (at best) balance out the positives, I'm not even sure why he's on the ballot.
I'm also firmly anti-Tuna but if BB can forgive him, maybe we should give it a shot?

(By the by, the Pats Hall of Fame always strikes me as kind of ridiculous. Not sure why we need it at all. Why not just have a hall that celebrates team accomplishments along with personal anecdotes and team history? It kind of sucks to draw a line between guys that will get in and those that won't in your own team's hall.)
 

Super Nomario

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Mankins for me. Best OL of the Pats dynasty.

I know people will hold the lack of rings against him, but he was on the team for the four highest-scoring offenses in team history (all over 500 points, and all three league-leading scoring offenses). But in coincided with the period where the D fell off from its heights.
 

tims4wins

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Mankins for me. Best OL of the Pats dynasty.

I know people will hold the lack of rings against him, but he was on the team for the four highest-scoring offenses in team history (all over 500 points, and all three league-leading scoring offenses). But in coincided with the period where the D fell off from its heights.
There is no dynasty without Vrabel.

Remove Mankins and nothing changes. They'd have found someone else to play guard. There was no other Mike Vrabel.
 

Van Everyman

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Yeah, I mean Mankins is arguably not part of the Patriots dynasty.

My favorite part of the Parcells story is him calling Kraft to do the Belichick deal and saying, "Bob? It's Darth Vader." I always loved how these two dudes who had wanted to kill each other three years earlier were able to laugh it off and get down to what probably turned out to be the most important business in football history. And I do credit Parcells with that, despite loathing how he left town.
And let's not forget that he didn't just "bring Curtis Martin" with him. He crafted one of the most infamous poison pill contracts to steal him from the Patriots.
What was that again?
 

BaseballJones

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I agree that Vrabel is the best choice.

Vrabel --> Mankins ---------> Parcells - for all the reason people have given here.
 

Pablo's TB Lover

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I mean there was much debate and angst over Roger Clemens being welcomed back to the Red Sox post-career, but at least he gave us 8-9 years of great service before mailing it in and double-crossing us with his new found "work ethic". Parcells was handed a #1 pick/franchise quarterback opportunity on the way in the door, and if not for Jacksonville upsetting the Broncos in the Divisional Round he wouldn't have that SB appearance (which he promptly undermined) to tout.

I'm also firmly anti-Tuna but if BB can forgive him, maybe we should give it a shot?

(By the by, the Pats Hall of Fame always strikes me as kind of ridiculous. Not sure why we need it at all. Why not just have a hall that celebrates team accomplishments along with personal anecdotes and team history? It kind of sucks to draw a line between guys that will get in and those that won't in your own team's hall.)
To be fair to "us", these aren't quite the same. Belichick's anger was due to Parcells thinking he was a great coach, and therefore taking him figuratively hostage. It was a well-intentioned duplicity as opposed to a "lie to your face" duplicity. BB also was in Cleveland most of Parcells' tenure and not here until 1996 when the Parcells/Kraft relationship was well beyond frosty. So I'm not sure how truly connected he was to that era here.
 

lexrageorge

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Parcells is an important piece of Patriot history, but his impact is hard to measure because it isn't based purely on wins or losses. Yes, he brought the team to a SB, but he went 32-32 in his four years here. Berry also brought the Pats to a SB and went 48-39, but I can't imagine Berry making the Pats HoF.

Parcells effect on the organization was wide reaching and impactful, but the majority of it was for the success he brought outside of coaching. His name actually gave the team some respect in NFL circles. He, for varying reasons, was the catalyst to getting Belichick here.
The above is why I will never have the hatred of Parcells many here have. The team and franchise were an absolute fucking clown show (and that is deeply insulting to clowns) in the years leading up to Parcells' arrival. And it was his arrival and that of Drew Bledsoe (first draft pick in the Parcells regime) in which we as fans finally saw a light at the end of the tunnel that perhaps this joke of a team could actually become something. The counter is that it was Kraft that brought the needed stability when he bought the team a year later and then kept the team in New England as opposed to moving them to St. Louis.

And while those things are great, he also mailed in the fucking SUPERBOWL so he could plan his departure to a division rival. And let's not forget that he didn't just "bring Curtis Martin" with him. He crafted one of the most infamous poison pill contracts to steal him from the Patriots. He was also a giant douchebag to Terry Glenn because the team drafted Glenn and not a defensive tackle Parcells wanted. Glenn obviously had plenty of issues, but having your own head coach gunning for you couldn't have been easy, and a small piece of me wonders how it effected Glenn and his career.

Since there's no reason to vote for him based on the onfield production, and the off field negatives (at best) balance out the positives, I'm not even sure why he's on the ballot.
Yes, he was behind the poison pill contract, but it was inexcusable upon the Pats for letting Martin's contract get to that point in the first place.
 

Seels

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Mankins was the worst player on the field in two different super bowls (maybe you could make an argument for Light in 42). Vrabel by a mile. There have to be about a dozen guys that should make it in before Mankins.

Go rewatch some of Super Bowl 42. He looked like a 3rd string backup out there.
 

BaseballJones

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Mankins played one of those Super Bowls (don't remember which one) on a torn ACL, if I remember the story right.
 

lexrageorge

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The Pats HoF is for career accomplishments, not just the Super Bowl. Mankins had 7 Pro-Bowls and one first team and 5 second team All-Pro selections to his name. Yeah, it sucks they lost 2 Super Bowls when he was there, but some of that was dumb luck as well.

Regarding the players that are eligible and soon to be eligible, I included my summary from an earlier post in a spoiler tag below:

First dynasty. This group is already well represented in the Pats Hall with Bledsoe, Troy Brown, McGinest, Seymour, Bruschi, Law, Light, and Faulk. So had to figure out who's left:

Adam Vinatieri: Probably should be elected the minute he is eligible (has 2 more years to wait, I believe).
Deion Branch: The lack of Pro-Bowl appearances hurts him. But he was not only Brady's first "go to" deep threat, he was also Super Bowl MVP and had a nice 2nd act here as well.
Mike Vrabel: 3 Super Bowls, one All-Pro, and 10 regular season and 2 playoff TD catches. Biggest issue is that the D from that era already has a lot of inductees.
Joe Andruzzi: The darkest of dark horses from this era, but the OL was really good, and Andruzzi was one of the rocks.
Asante Samuel: He won his rings with this group as a nickel corner, but was an All-Pro shutdown corner by the time he left after the 2007 season. His departure for the Eagles during his prime years hurts him; had he caught that interception and stayed in bounds, he likely gets serious consideration. The biggest obstacle is purely the number of deserving candidates in the subsequent eras.
Ted Johnson: Was a rock on the inside for 4 Super Bowl teams for Parcells and BB. Has zero chance of getting in; just giving him an honorable mention here.

The "middle years". Players from this era have only just started to become eligible. But there are some players here that shouldn't be overlooked:

Wes Welker: Led the league in receptions 3 times, 5 Pro Bowls, and 2 All-Pro teams during his time here. Some will hold his dropped pass against him, but he was in the conversation for MVP with 103 yards in the Game that Must Not be Named.
Logan Mankins: The best OL of the Brady/Belichick dynasty to not win a Super Bowl. Got schooled in two Super Bowls, but was also hampered by injury in both. 6 Pro Bowls, 1 All Pro. Started as Matt Light's partner and ended as Solder's. Should also be a no-brainer.
Randy Moss: Hall of Famer, but mostly for his Vikings career. Was only here for 3 seasons plus 4 games. Broke records in 2007, but then got caught up in some bizarre domestic incident just prior to the start of the playoffs. Probably a shoo-in had the Asante caught that INT. But the 3 above him on this list are more deserving, and the backlog of candidates will only grow real soon.
Jerod Mayo: Short career (8 years) that mostly spanned the middle years, and was mostly hurt towards the end. Probably in the Honorable Mention category, but needed to note his 2 Pro Bowls, one All-Pro, and 1 Super Bowl title.

The 2nd dynasty. There will be some tough omissions here for sure.

Gronk: 'Nuff sed.
Edelman: Ditto.
Gostkowski: The first "controversial" pick of this era. With 4 Pro Bowls and 2 All Pro nominations to go with his 3 rings, he would normally be a "no brainer". He made some big kicks, but also some notable misses, and lacks the signature kick that cemented Adam's place. I would still put him in, but the backlog is a real problem.
Hightower: Was the defensive mainstay of this era, and his absence always seemed most keenly felt.
D. McCourty: Another mainstay of the D from this era. Biggest issue is only 2 Pro Bowls as a safety, but the 2nd most deserving defender of this era, IMO.
Nate Solder: Worthy successor to Matt Light, but lacks the individual accolades, despite his role in keeping the QB upright during his 7 years here. The OL really suffered when he got hurt in 2015.
Rob Ninkovich: Probably in the "not a chance" category, but his 46 sacks in 8 seasons here deserve a mention along with his 2 rings.
Malcolm Butler: His short stint and mysterious benching cloud his legacy, and he never seemed to recapture the magic of his one Pro Bowl season as a full time starter. But his signature play ranks up there with The Goal and The Stolen Base.
Matt Slater: Huge impact on special teams.

Of those eligible, only Vrabel and possibly Welker really rank above Mankins, who really should be a lock to get in eventually. My own list of players that should be at the front of the line for induction (listed in order of eligibility):

Vrabel
Mankins
Vinatieri (eligible next year, I believe)
Edelman (eligible 2025)
Gronk (2026)
Hightower (2026)
McCourty (2027)
Some QB whose name I forgot (2027 if he stays retired)
Slater (likely 2028 eligibility)

Add in Welker (eligible), Ghost (2026) and some of the other possibly deserving players there is a huge backlog coming.
 

johnmd20

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Parcells is behind a list of 50 people that didn't quit on the team during the Super Bowl while stealing a franchise player and running to fucking New Jersey. Fuck his age, fuck his accomplishments, he can eat shit, and should never be celebrated by this franchise.
This. Frankly, the fact that he was even nominated is a disgrace.
 

gammoseditor

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Mankins played one of those Super Bowls (don't remember which one) on a torn ACL, if I remember the story right.
I have always wondered if his pride cost us that Super Bowl. Playing hurt only helps if you are better than your backup.

And yeah, Vrabel by a mile. And I do think the Patriots hall of fame serves a purpose. In football you can‘t retire numbers with very few exceptions.
 

tims4wins

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The Pats HoF is for career accomplishments, not just the Super Bowl. Mankins had 7 Pro-Bowls and one first team and 5 second team All-Pro selections to his name. Yeah, it sucks they lost 2 Super Bowls when he was there, but some of that was dumb luck as well.

Regarding the players that are eligible and soon to be eligible, I included my summary from an earlier post in a spoiler tag below:

First dynasty. This group is already well represented in the Pats Hall with Bledsoe, Troy Brown, McGinest, Seymour, Bruschi, Law, Light, and Faulk. So had to figure out who's left:

Adam Vinatieri: Probably should be elected the minute he is eligible (has 2 more years to wait, I believe).
Deion Branch: The lack of Pro-Bowl appearances hurts him. But he was not only Brady's first "go to" deep threat, he was also Super Bowl MVP and had a nice 2nd act here as well.
Mike Vrabel: 3 Super Bowls, one All-Pro, and 10 regular season and 2 playoff TD catches. Biggest issue is that the D from that era already has a lot of inductees.
Joe Andruzzi: The darkest of dark horses from this era, but the OL was really good, and Andruzzi was one of the rocks.
Asante Samuel: He won his rings with this group as a nickel corner, but was an All-Pro shutdown corner by the time he left after the 2007 season. His departure for the Eagles during his prime years hurts him; had he caught that interception and stayed in bounds, he likely gets serious consideration. The biggest obstacle is purely the number of deserving candidates in the subsequent eras.
Ted Johnson: Was a rock on the inside for 4 Super Bowl teams for Parcells and BB. Has zero chance of getting in; just giving him an honorable mention here.

The "middle years". Players from this era have only just started to become eligible. But there are some players here that shouldn't be overlooked:

Wes Welker: Led the league in receptions 3 times, 5 Pro Bowls, and 2 All-Pro teams during his time here. Some will hold his dropped pass against him, but he was in the conversation for MVP with 103 yards in the Game that Must Not be Named.
Logan Mankins: The best OL of the Brady/Belichick dynasty to not win a Super Bowl. Got schooled in two Super Bowls, but was also hampered by injury in both. 6 Pro Bowls, 1 All Pro. Started as Matt Light's partner and ended as Solder's. Should also be a no-brainer.
Randy Moss: Hall of Famer, but mostly for his Vikings career. Was only here for 3 seasons plus 4 games. Broke records in 2007, but then got caught up in some bizarre domestic incident just prior to the start of the playoffs. Probably a shoo-in had the Asante caught that INT. But the 3 above him on this list are more deserving, and the backlog of candidates will only grow real soon.
Jerod Mayo: Short career (8 years) that mostly spanned the middle years, and was mostly hurt towards the end. Probably in the Honorable Mention category, but needed to note his 2 Pro Bowls, one All-Pro, and 1 Super Bowl title.

The 2nd dynasty. There will be some tough omissions here for sure.

Gronk: 'Nuff sed.
Edelman: Ditto.
Gostkowski: The first "controversial" pick of this era. With 4 Pro Bowls and 2 All Pro nominations to go with his 3 rings, he would normally be a "no brainer". He made some big kicks, but also some notable misses, and lacks the signature kick that cemented Adam's place. I would still put him in, but the backlog is a real problem.
Hightower: Was the defensive mainstay of this era, and his absence always seemed most keenly felt.
D. McCourty: Another mainstay of the D from this era. Biggest issue is only 2 Pro Bowls as a safety, but the 2nd most deserving defender of this era, IMO.
Nate Solder: Worthy successor to Matt Light, but lacks the individual accolades, despite his role in keeping the QB upright during his 7 years here. The OL really suffered when he got hurt in 2015.
Rob Ninkovich: Probably in the "not a chance" category, but his 46 sacks in 8 seasons here deserve a mention along with his 2 rings.
Malcolm Butler: His short stint and mysterious benching cloud his legacy, and he never seemed to recapture the magic of his one Pro Bowl season as a full time starter. But his signature play ranks up there with The Goal and The Stolen Base.
Matt Slater: Huge impact on special teams.

Of those eligible, only Vrabel and possibly Welker really rank above Mankins, who really should be a lock to get in eventually. My own list of players that should be at the front of the line for induction (listed in order of eligibility):

Vrabel
Mankins
Vinatieri (eligible next year, I believe)
Edelman (eligible 2025)
Gronk (2026)
Hightower (2026)
McCourty (2027)
Some QB whose name I forgot (2027 if he stays retired)
Slater (likely 2028 eligibility)

Add in Welker (eligible), Ghost (2026) and some of the other possibly deserving players there is a huge backlog coming.
Generally agreed, but Gost should never get elected IMO and Welker and Mankins - unfortunately for them due to SB performance - are at the bottom of the list vs any of those guys for me.
 

lexrageorge

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Generally agreed, but Gost should never get elected IMO and Welker and Mankins - unfortunately for them due to SB performance - are at the bottom of the list vs any of those guys for me.
Welker was on his way to SB MVP until the helmet catch happened.
 

Mystic Merlin

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They should just relax the rules to get the backlogged players and/or coaches from the dynasty era in. But they probably want to stretch out these guaranteed annual inductions another decade.
 

E5 Yaz

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Here's the list from which the three were chosen: Logan Mankins, Mike Vrabel, Wes Welker, Lawyer Milloy, Bill Parcells, Mosi Tatupu, Russ Francis, John Smith, Julius Adams, Chuck Fairbanks and Pete Brock were all put up for consideration and the three finalists will be announced later this week.

How in the world Julius Adams is still on the outside is a mystery to me.
 

Zedia

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Here's the list from which the three were chosen: Logan Mankins, Mike Vrabel, Wes Welker, Lawyer Milloy, Bill Parcells, Mosi Tatupu, Russ Francis, John Smith, Julius Adams, Chuck Fairbanks and Pete Brock were all put up for consideration and the three finalists will be announced later this week.

How in the world Julius Adams is still on the outside is a mystery to me.
Pete Brock? Wow. I was just a kid, but my memory is he was a perfectly average lineman. And everybody loves Mosi, but like 50% of his HoF argument is he had a cool name.
 

lexrageorge

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Pete Brock? Wow. I was just a kid, but my memory is he was a perfectly average lineman. And everybody loves Mosi, but like 50% of his HoF argument is he had a cool name.
He's probably never getting inducted, but he did play in 154 games over 12 seasons for the Pats, so that's worth something. And he's also President of the Patriots Alumni Association.

FWIW, Chuck Fairbanks screwed over the Pats even worse than Parcells.
 
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I love Milloy, but Welker was a dominating weapon from the slot and one of the most productive offensive players in the history of the franchise. He was historically great.
 

Shaky Walton

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This year: Vrabel. Easy button.

Next year: Welker. Why is he not on the ballot NOW? He was consistently great and should not be punished for one play.

As to Parcells, it's all been said except that the fact that Belichick, his peer, forgave him does not at all implicate whether he should be honored by the Pats. Any person who was not singularly focused on winning the Super Bowl, and for whom there was an "I" in team, cannot receive the team's highest honor. People who misunderstand that might be forgetting that when Parcells did what he did, the Pats had never won a Super Bowl. The Packers were a tall order but he made the task that much more difficult at a time when we were all dying to see our team break through.

We all make mistakes and maybe he can be forgiven. But not honored. Not the highest honor.
 

Shelterdog

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I have always wondered if his pride cost us that Super Bowl. Playing hurt only helps if you are better than your backup.

And yeah, Vrabel by a mile. And I do think the Patriots hall of fame serves a purpose. In football you can‘t retire numbers with very few exceptions.
He played the entire 2011 season with a torn acl.
Pride only would come into it if the coaches failed to have the right guy in and I have no evidence of that
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Pats HoF isn't just about SB wins. People forget how fucking dominate Welker was here. Man had 5 All-pro's in the 6 seasons he spent with the Pats. He was such a large part of their offensive identity and had such a monumental impact on the entire offensive construction (even after he left). In his 6 seasons with the team, they went 76-20. Thats a 79.1% win rate. Bradys career win rate in non-Welker games is 73%. Gronk - who people cite as Bradys wing man - followed Brady his entire career and had a win percentage of 77.6%. Almost as good as Wes...but not Wes. Edelman was 78%...one percentage point away from Wes...but not quite Wes.

My point isn't that Wes was better or more important than Edelman or Gronk. But if people consider Gronk/Edelman slam dunks for the Pats HoF, theres very little argument against Welker not making it. Does Edelman have rings? Yep. But so does Welker. He didn't win them HERE, but catching 8 balls for 84 yards and resting nearly the entire 4th quarter while the Broncos dismantled the Seahawks puts to bed the "can't win the big one" argument.

Should we also pretend Welker wasn't a key cog in the 16-0 team that anyone old enough to remember will mark them as the best team of all time?

I don't think the missed SB catch is the biggest reason people don't tier Welker appropriately. If Edelman didn't take up the mantle as well as he did, people would be able to appreciate Wes's greatness a little better. When I think about how important Wes was to this team, I think about the 2010 playoff loss to the Jets. It wasn't just about getting pressure without blitzing. It was about stacking as many players 3 - 10 yards off the line and in between the hask marks. And that was because the gameplan - which worked - was to do everything in their power to take away Welker. Despite that game plan, Brady STILL threw 9 targets his way. They eventually had to live or die with the corpse of Deion Branch getting 10 targets.

I'm not passionate about Wes Welker or anything, but the man had one of the biggest impacts a player can have on the roster during our great run. Welker is a no brainer for the Pats hall.
 

Rudy's Curve

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2006
2,353
My point isn't that Wes was better or more important than Edelman or Gronk. But if people consider Gronk/Edelman slam dunks for the Pats HoF, theres very little argument against Welker not making it. Does Edelman have rings? Yep. But so does Welker. He didn't win them HERE, but catching 8 balls for 84 yards and resting nearly the entire 4th quarter while the Broncos dismantled the Seahawks puts to bed the "can't win the big one" argument.
Welker seems like a great candidate in my unqualified and worthless opinion, but he sat the fourth quarter because the Broncos were getting demolished.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
38,844
Hingham, MA
Pats HoF isn't just about SB wins. People forget how fucking dominate Welker was here. Man had 5 All-pro's in the 6 seasons he spent with the Pats. He was such a large part of their offensive identity and had such a monumental impact on the entire offensive construction (even after he left). In his 6 seasons with the team, they went 76-20. Thats a 79.1% win rate. Bradys career win rate in non-Welker games is 73%. Gronk - who people cite as Bradys wing man - followed Brady his entire career and had a win percentage of 77.6%. Almost as good as Wes...but not Wes. Edelman was 78%...one percentage point away from Wes...but not quite Wes.

My point isn't that Wes was better or more important than Edelman or Gronk. But if people consider Gronk/Edelman slam dunks for the Pats HoF, theres very little argument against Welker not making it. Does Edelman have rings? Yep. But so does Welker. He didn't win them HERE, but catching 8 balls for 84 yards and resting nearly the entire 4th quarter while the Broncos dismantled the Seahawks puts to bed the "can't win the big one" argument.

Should we also pretend Welker wasn't a key cog in the 16-0 team that anyone old enough to remember will mark them as the best team of all time?

I don't think the missed SB catch is the biggest reason people don't tier Welker appropriately. If Edelman didn't take up the mantle as well as he did, people would be able to appreciate Wes's greatness a little better. When I think about how important Wes was to this team, I think about the 2010 playoff loss to the Jets. It wasn't just about getting pressure without blitzing. It was about stacking as many players 3 - 10 yards off the line and in between the hask marks. And that was because the gameplan - which worked - was to do everything in their power to take away Welker. Despite that game plan, Brady STILL threw 9 targets his way. They eventually had to live or die with the corpse of Deion Branch getting 10 targets.

I'm not passionate about Wes Welker or anything, but the man had one of the biggest impacts a player can have on the roster during our great run. Welker is a no brainer for the Pats hall.
This is all 100% correct, but because they are only letting in one guy per year, the guys with rings are going to get elected first.

Edit: except the Broncos Super Bowl part. He caught 3 balls for 26 yards in the first half as the Broncos fell behind 29-0.
 

Ed Hillel

Wants to be startin somethin
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2007
45,724
Here
I thought about this long and hard last night, and no matter what, I come to the same damned conclusion:

Fuck Bill Parcells.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
25,299
Welker played for the Rams in 2015, the year Denver won the Super Bowl over Carolina.

Welker has played in three Super Bowls:

- Pats 17-14 loss to the Giants in '08 (2007 season): 11 rec, 103 yds, 9.4 y/c
- Pats 21-17 loss to the Giants in '12 (2011 season): 7 rec, 60 yds, 8.6 y/c
- Broncos 43-8 loss to the Seahawks in '14 (2013 season): 8 rec, 84 yds, 10.5 y/c

That's it. I mean, it's great that he's played in three Super Bowls - tons of guys never get to play in one, never mind three. But he's never won one.

That being said, his time with New England was off...the...charts.

6 seasons: 672 rec, 7,459 yds, 11.1 y/c, 37 td
Avg season: 112 rec, 1,243 yds, 11.1 y/c, 6 td

That's absurd.