Let's talk about Michael Pineda

rembrat

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You're right that I overstated that. But isn't it becoming an accepted item of conventional wisdom that pitchers throw their fastest at age 22-24 or something like that and (absent conditioning improvements or improvements in mechanics) go downhill from there?
Yea, I would agree. People have shown that pitchers lose about 1mph on their fastball per year. Of course there are always exceptions.

Honestly, I find this stuff fascinating. It really makes you rethink free agency and pushing pitchers along off merit and not age.

I haven't looked but it would explain Tampa's godly rotation. Some of those dudes cant even shave yet.
 

Sampo Gida

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Well, isn't the likely reason pretty obvious? They progressively hurt their arms. 95 mph and a crackling curve at age 22 becomes 93 mph and a still very good curve at 26 etc etc. Some refine their command enough to make up the difference for a while. Others don't. And some fall apart physically much too fast to ever compensate. Throwing a baseball overhand at 95 mph is not something the human body was designed to do all the time.
According to this article FB velocity increases each year until it peaks at age 28-29 and then starts to decline. Most picthers at 22-24 are not completely mature physically, which is one reason why they are at so high a risk for injury.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/preliminary-aging-curve-for-fastball-speed/

Best may be yet to come for Pineda if he stays healthy (and in light of the Carmona news, if he is really 22).
 

jon abbey

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http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/michael-pineda-newest-ny-yankee-ready-prove-yankee-stadium-stage-article-1.1009694?localLinksEnabled=false
 

jon abbey

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Pineda is the lead in Olney's Insider column today, an excerpt:

"After the Pineda trade was finished, there was the natural handwringing within the Yankees' organization, because they do believe Jesus Montero is an elite hitter who will put up big numbers during the next decade. Pineda has a 98 mph fastball and a hard-veering slider, and if Pineda is unable to refine a changeup, one front office evaluator mentioned, then he might never become a No. 1-type starter.

But after Pineda arrived in the Yankees' camp, pitching coach Larry Rothschild worked with him to alter the grip on his changeup. Rothschild mentioned to Martin that Pineda's changeup is a work in progress before the veteran catcher crouched to work with Pineda in a bullpen session Monday, and Martin was taken aback by how good Pineda's changeup is already. He turned to Rothschild and said, "Larry, what are you guys talking about?"

In other words: Pineda already has made strides with the changeup, a sign of his aptitude.

"It had movement," Martin said. "You know, there were a couple of times when he got to the side of it and it had a little bit of downward fade and sinking action. But when he got on top of it" -- the optimal position -- "it was really good.""
 

mauf

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At age 22, Pineda posted a 3.53 xFIP in The Show while striking out better than a batter an inning. At age 21, Montero hit 288/348/467, while doing nothing to dispel the growing notion that his natural "position" is DH.


For the MFY, the most troubling thing about Pineda is that the Mariners were willing to part with him.
 

jon abbey

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For the MFY, the most troubling thing about Pineda is that the Mariners were willing to part with him.
People say this, but I don't really buy it. King Felix isn't going anywhere for both baseball and non-baseball reasons, and Seattle has Hultzen and Walker, both top 20 overall prospects in MLB, plus they got Noesi back in the deal. They seem to be much better at developing pitchers than hitters, and dealt from a position of strength to try to land a middle of the order stud.

Would you also say that the most troubling thing about Montero is that the Yankees were willing to part with him? I don't think either team was thrilled about giving up their guy, but it made sense both ways.

At age 21, Montero hit 288/348/467
Those were his AAA numbers, he also hit 328/406/590 in 69 MLB PAs.
 

Murderer's Crow

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People say this, but I don't really buy it. King Felix isn't going anywhere for both baseball and non-baseball reasons, and Seattle has Hultzen and Walker, both top 20 overall prospects in MLB, plus they got Noesi back in the deal. They seem to be much better at developing pitchers than hitters, and dealt from a position of strength to try to land a middle of the order stud.

Would you also say that the most troubling thing about Montero is that the Yankees were willing to part with him? I don't think either team was thrilled about giving up their guy, but it made sense both ways.



Those were his AAA numbers, he also hit 328/406/590 in 69 MLB PAs.
Agreed. To add to this, both teams were making a trade to fill positions of weakness. The Yankees with Montero at DH and a rotation of CC, Nova, Kuroda, Burnett, Garcia are not as good as they are today.
 

Toe Nash

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Would you also say that the most troubling thing about Montero is that the Yankees were willing to part with him?
No. As pointed out he had an underwhelming year and there are questions about his ability to catch. That's objectively troubling.

I wouldn't be troubled by Seattle letting Pineda go because it's perfectly likely that Seattle doesn't really know what they're doing, and NY does. That makes as much sense to me as anything.
 

natpastime162

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They have three stud starters 1-2 years away in the minors and they haven't been able to develop any hitting besides Ackley (not that I think the word 'developing' really applies to the second pick overall in the draft). Someone pointed out that Montero, Smoak and Ackley were all in the top 15 or so prospects in baseball two years ago, so if their next wave of pitchers develops like they think it will, they have a solid core to go along with King Felix.

The arm stuff is really just wishful thinking, I haven't seen a single person with knowledge of the situation even allude to that possibility. BP's writeup on him last offseason (with a year of performance after the 2009 elbow issues) began "Pineda is about as close as pitching prospects come to a sure thing", followed immediately by a Pedro comparison and some more raves (you can read the whole writeup at Amazon if you don't have the book, just look for Baseball Prospectus 2011 and search for Michael Pineda).
This has been stated many times and, if true, is an extremely big gamble. Trading a 22-year-old ace because 3 guys in Double-A have ace potential. What could possibly go wrong?
 

mauf

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Would you also say that the most troubling thing about Montero is that the Yankees were willing to part with him? I don't think either team was thrilled about giving up their guy, but it made sense both ways.
No. Even if 2011 was just a hiccup on Montero's inexorable march to stardom, a great DH isn't worth as much as a great SP.

Granted, pitching is less predictable than hitting, and I might feel differently about the deal if Montero had already proven his mettle in a full major-league season. But with Montero still unproven, there's no way you make that deal if you think Pineda is as good as his 2011 stats would suggest.

The M's are betting against Pineda. Taking the other side of that bet may be shrewd, especially given the MFY's need to keep the DH spot open for A*Rod, but if I were them, I'd be awful worried the M's sold high on Pineda because they saw something the rest of baseball didn't.
 

jon abbey

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Taking the other side of that bet may be shrewd, especially given the MFY's need to keep the DH spot open for A*Rod, but if I were them, I'd be awful worried the M's sold high on Pineda because they saw something the rest of baseball didn't.
Well, from my perspective as a fan, when you combine Pineda's performance with his years of control with his size and scouting reports, I'm not sure there's another pitcher I'd feel more comfortable with them having traded for. Obviously any pitcher can get hurt at any time, but to again quote last year's BP Annual, "Pineda is about as close as pitching prospects come to a sure thing."
 

Sampo Gida

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The M's are betting against Pineda. Taking the other side of that bet may be shrewd, especially given the MFY's need to keep the DH spot open for A*Rod, but if I were them, I'd be awful worried the M's sold high on Pineda because they saw something the rest of baseball didn't.
Thats a good point. Interesting article here..

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/other_peoples_players/

It’s possible that a team knows more about its own pitchers than a forecasting system, and so, are much better positioned to forecast them.
Hence, if a team simply doesn’t want its own pitcher back, then this acts as a cautionary indicator to the other 29 teams.
 

mauf

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Well, from my perspective as a fan, when you combine Pineda's performance with his years of control with his size and scouting reports, I'm not sure there's another pitcher I'd feel more comfortable with them having traded for. Obviously any pitcher can get hurt at any time, but to again quote last year's BP Annual, "Pineda is about as close as pitching prospects come to a sure thing."
Don't get me wrong -- I hate the deal for the same reasons you love it. You just have to wonder what made Seattle pull the trigger.
 

jon abbey

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On top of everything else, Cashman also got a built in insurance policy in the deal w/Campos, another hard thrower with great control who's a few years away.

Edit: Actually both secondary pieces (Noesi also) were I think crucial to why this deal happened, Noesi is ready to fill in for Pineda right now and hold the fort until their higher level prospects get there.
 

Mooch

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This can't be good news:

Ken Rosenthal ‏ @Ken_Rosenthal
Scouts yesterday had #Yankees' Pineda at 88-91 - "and there was some effort to get to 91," one said. Pineda averaged 94.7 last year. #MLB

Re: Previous tweet on Pineda. Yes it's early. But scouts were taken aback, asking each other if readings were accurate. #Yankees #MLB
 

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FWIW, Keith Law isn't that concerned, thinks they need a few more starts like that, but that's not good to be that far below your average. What was he doing this offseason?
 

Mooch

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FWIW, Keith Law isn't that concerned, thinks they need a few more starts like that, but that's not good to be that far below your average. What was he doing this offseason?
Eating, apparently. He showed up to camp VERY heavy.
 

Fishercat

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The interesting thing is that the bigger national guys are reporting the velocity as the big news. Other papers? All about the new change-up and an impressive spring debut. It's interesting and a bit hard to tell where this will go.
 

jon abbey

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He's 23.

He's already lost 7-8 of the 10 extra pounds, so at least that shouldn't be news anymore. I find the velocity reports a little odd as I saw him throw a high fastball by Thome to strike him out, but I also can't say I'm worried at all for another couple of weeks.
 

quiggy

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FWIW, Keith Law isn't that concerned, thinks they need a few more starts like that, but that's not good to be that far below your average. What was he doing this offseason?

Law also mentioned that he saw him almost exactly one year ago (3/7/11) and he was 93-96. Didn't mention if it was his first spring start, but I assume it was due to the date.
 

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Law also mentioned that he saw him almost exactly one year ago (3/7/11) and he was 93-96. Didn't mention if it was his first spring start, but I assume it was due to the date.
Maybe last spring he was busting his butt trying to impress people and make the Mariners' rotation. This year, he can work on stuff and not go all-out from day one. He got a lot of weak swings yesterday anyway. Guy is 6-foot-7 and releasing the ball 58 feet from home plate.
 

Fishercat

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Law also mentioned that he saw him almost exactly one year ago (3/7/11) and he was 93-96. Didn't mention if it was his first spring start, but I assume it was due to the date.
Yep, good call. He clearly wasn't that excited about the light velocity this year.

I think Law said it should be "at least 2-3" starts before we should be concerned. Seems reasonable enough to wait, he could have just been focusing on his secondary stuff or it could just be early.
 

jon abbey

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Yeah, he may also be trying to pace himself a bit this year, he threw 171 IP last year and NY would presumably like to get him up to around 200 this year. He was definitely working on his change yesterday (5 changeups in 30 pitches), as everyone's made such a big deal about that since NY traded for him.
 

OnWisc

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Yeah, he may also be trying to pace himself a bit this year, he threw 171 IP last year and NY would presumably like to get him up to around 200 this year. He was definitely working on his change yesterday (5 changeups in 30 pitches), as everyone's made such a big deal about that since NY traded for him.
Probably. Per PitchFX, his fastball averaged at or above 95 in 5 of his first 12 starts (and barely a fraction under in another). In his last 12 starts, his fastball averaged above 95 just once (and never in the last 9 starts). And Wedge gave him some occasional rest in the 2nd half, before shutting him down after his 9/23 start. There's also the fact that, if accurate, his velocity was way down in that last start, where he didn't even top 95 once in the game.

As such, the fact that he was hitting 95 this early in the spring last season may be incentive to take it slower this year. Especially considering that while the M's could afford to shut him down last season, he's far more likely to be needed through September and beyond in 2012.

http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfxo.aspx?playerid=5372&position=P&pitch=FA

That last game is odd, however, as PitchFX has several of his sliders with substantially more movement than he saw the rest of the season, including the 5 sliders approaching or exceeding 10in of horizontal movement, as well as 2 additional sliders that also saw more horizontal movement than any he had previously thrown last season.

Pineda 9/21:

http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfxg.aspx?playerid=5372&position=P&season=2011&date=2011-09-21&dh=0

Pineda 2011:

http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfxg.aspx?playerid=5372&position=P&season=2011&date=0&dh=0
 

jon abbey

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Here's a more nuanced piece from Mariners fan Dave Cameron along similar lines:

http://www.fangraphs...duced-velocity/

Verlander does a similar thing, I believe, his FB tends to pick up a few MPH in the middle to late innings when he feels he really needs it. I just hope this media silliness doesn't make Pineda change his plans in his next start.
 

jon abbey

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Heh, in the comments to that piece, someone linked to this game writeup from last June:

http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2011/6/23/2240147/seattle-mariners-washington-nationals-jim-riggleman

I also think it should be pointed out that Pineda's release point (similar to Robertson's) seems to be closer to the batter than most pitchers because of his long arms and stride, meaning his 90 is more like 91 or 92.
 

derekson

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I just saw Montero hit a single off the top of the RF wall, Manny Ramirez style. Somehow I don't think he ever would've fit in well on Girardi's Yankees.
 

Sampo Gida

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Beckett was throwing his FB as slow as 88 mph in his first start this year, so you can't really read much into Pinedas 1st ST start. But Hughes started off last years ST around 88-90, so it's something to watch.

The warning signs for Pineda.

1. Drop off in 2nd half performance.

2. Change of approach in 2nd half to not throw as hard in the early innings .

http://www.fangraphs...duced-velocity/

Pitchers with arm trouble frequently start the game off slower and ramp up velocity as the game progresses. He had arm trouble in 2009.

Did his change of approach happen after his drop off in performance or cause his drop off in performance?.

3. Studies showing teams generally know their pitchers better than the teams trading for them (link provided earlier in the thread). It's been asked before, why would you not trade Cliff Lee for Montero in 2010, but trade Pineda for Montero after 2011. Sure, maybe they overvalued Smoak, but maybe they decided to sell high on Pineda knowing his situation better than other teams.

Obviously, we should know more about Pineda as the season progresses.
 

OnWisc

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Here's a more nuanced piece from Mariners fan Dave Cameron along similar lines:

http://www.fangraphs...duced-velocity/

Verlander does a similar thing, I believe, his FB tends to pick up a few MPH in the middle to late innings when he feels he really needs it. I just hope this media silliness doesn't make Pineda change his plans in his next start.
The column seems one of the more thought-through rebuttals to the uproar over Pineda's velocity. And, as others have pointed out, Beckett was sitting in the high-80s and topping out at 91 (as far as I saw) on Sunday.

Rather than just rely on the first 10 pitches of his 8-21 start as is done in the article, I pulled the data on Pineda's starts from the Brooks website. Unscientifically selecting his 13th start as the one in which he began to consistently reduce his initial velocity, you get the following comparisons. I did exclude Pineda's last start of the season where his velocity throughout the game was clearly off.

Starts 1 - 12
Pitch # Thrown # FA % FB Avg FA
1-10 120 93 77.5% 94.6
11-20 120 87 72.5% 95.0
21-30 120 79 65.8% 94.7
31-40 120 82 68.3% 95.1
41-50 120 78 65.0% 95.1
51-60 120 81 67.5% 95.4
61-70 120 71 59.2% 95.2
71-80 116 74 63.8% 95.2
81-90 110 73 66.4% 94.9
91-100 83 63 75.9% 94.8
100+ 9 7 77.8% 94.5


Starts 13 - 27
Pitch # Thrown # FA % FB Avg FA
1-10 150 107 71.3% 92.4
11-20 150 102 68.0% 93.8
21-30 150 101 67.3% 94.0
31-40 150 95 63.3% 94.3
41-50 150 91 60.7% 94.3
51-60 150 85 56.7% 94.6
61-70 150 93 62.0% 94.6
71-80 150 82 54.7% 94.0
81-90 140 87 62.1% 94.0
91-100 76 53 69.7% 93.8
100+ 16 10 62.5% 94.5


Difference
Pitch % FB Avg FA
1-10 (6.2%) (2.2)
11-20 (4.5%) (1.2)
21-30 1.5% (0.8)
31-40 (5.0%) (0.8)
41-50 (4.3%) (0.8)
51-60 (10.8%) (0.8)
61-70 2.8% (0.6)
71-80 (9.1%) (1.2)
81-90 (4.2%) (0.9)
91-100 (6.2%) (1.0)
100+ (15.3%) (0.0)


So while his initial velocities weren't as consistently low as they were in the 8/21 start, he did tend to start off games with less velocity on his fastballs. And while he did dial it up as his pitch count progressed, his velocity in his last 15 starts continued to lag the velocity in his first 12, although this difference falls in the middle innings before expanding again in the later innings.

As far as pitch choice, while he generally threw fewer fastballs in the last 15 starts, I'm not sure the difference is meaningful. A 10% difference would imply one fewer fastball out of the 10 pitch sequence, and that number was only equalled or approached twice (excluding the SSS 100+ pitch range). Seeing as that could have as much to do with the particular game situation, differences of this magnitude may not be at all relevant. Perhaps someone with more knowledge about pitching could provide more insight.

So while this is somewhat of an unscientific analysis, it does generally support the commentary in the Fangraphs column. Despite any analysis, as everyone has already pointed out, if Pineda is still generally in the high-80's three weeks from now, it's a concern. If he's consistently in the mid-90's, then concerns over this spring training debut will be forgotten.

EDIT: I pulled the data into Excel and then ran the various calculations. I've spot checked it and don't believe there are any busts, but I should add the caveat that I haven't thoroughly reviewed all the calculations. There was also probably an easier way to do this, but I'm not familiar with any sites that break it out like this.
 

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Looking at twitter, sounds like he was throwing 91-92, 2.2 IP, 4 H, 1 ER, 3 BB, 1 K
 

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Michael Pineda pitched Saturday like the Yankees are advertising him to pitch. He threw like a young guy who is not fully developed as a pitcher.

Oh, and, his vaunted V-lo still isn't there yet.

That is the takeaway from Pineda's second start as a Yankee. Pineda couldn't last his allotted three innings, going 2-2/3, allowing one run (earned) on four hits, while striking out one and walking three. He hit 93 mph on his fastball, which is one mile higher than his last time out, but he mostly ranged in the 90-91 area with his fastball.

Joe Girardi's goal was for Pineda to work on his change-up and he threw some good ones (and 6-8 in total, Pineda said). Pineda threw 57 pitches, only 36 were strikes.

ESPN/Marchand
 

jon abbey

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Dunno if it's true or not, but Cashman has been nothing but honest publicly for the last year or so (or at least we haven't caught him in any lies for a while), and he says that Pineda was sitting 89-90 in spring training 2011.

http://www.nj.com/yankees/index.ssf/2012/03/bradley_cashman_tries_to_lower.html
 

derekson

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Dunno if it's true or not, but Cashman has been nothing but honest publicly for the last year or so (or at least we haven't caught him in any lies for a while), and he says that Pineda was sitting 89-90 in spring training 2011.

http://www.nj.com/ya...s_to_lower.html
Cashman is full of shit. That link is Pineda's ST start against the Brewers on March 16th, 2011. His 4-seamer averaged 94.7 MPH and topped out at 96.6. That'd be about 1 start farther into the spring than Pineda was today.
 

jon abbey

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Pineda said he expects to be throwing harder and harder with every spring start, and that’s not only because of a natural increase in arm strength. Pineda isn’t trying to throw his fastball at max effort early in spring training.
“I conserve a little bit (of) my energy,” he said. “I can try, when I pitch again, throwing a little more hard and a little more hard and a little more hard. (During) my last start in spring training, I’m throwing harder… I don’t focus right now on my velo. I’m focused right now on competing on the mound and making a good pitch. That’s it.”
http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2012/03/10/still-a-secondary-concern-pinedas-velocity-ticks-up-slightly/
 

derekson

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V-Lo readings: Pineda has been mostly at 90-91 so far. There was one 95 today. (hat tip @jaysonst)
According to Marchand on Twitter.

I only personally caught a bit of the 4th inning, before Pineda was pulled after the LaRoche double, but the fastballs I saw were all in the 89-91 range, at least according to MASN's gun. Not sure if their gun was reading a bit cold.
 

jon abbey

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Yeah, that gun was messed up, the announcers said at one point they've been having problems with it all spring training.
 

derekson

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Not so sure the gun is messed up - Lannan is in the game now and hitting 88-89, which is pretty much his normal velocity.
 

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In his last 2 starts he has not finished his last inning (2 2/3, 3 2/3). Given up 8 H and 4 BB in 6 1/3 IP. Avg FB down 3-4 mph. Pineda says his FB is coming but does not say where it is.

Dunno, I would be a tad concerned until he starts hitting 95 on a regular basis. Not saying he won't get there. Remember, he will be pitching in YS3 this year, not SAFECO, so he needs to be around 95, which is the guy the Yankees traded for.
 

jon abbey

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It's a long season, I'll personally be a "tad concerned" if he has a 7+ ERA on May 1. I watched most of his outing today, his change and slider looked great.