Jaylen Brown, Year 7

Deathofthebambino

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I can't watch more than half of that video because that dude has no idea what he is talking about. I can't believe you think he is spot on. He isn't.

His first 5 instances of "Boston not knowing what they are doing because Mazzulla is an idiot" resulted in 4 good looks (three wide open corner threes, and one layup by Tatum), and one bad pass by Horford. NBA teams would kill to get those 5 looks on those 5 possessions.

Good look at basket for Tatum - missed layup. Had Smart open if he passed
Entry pass to Horford, kicks to wide open corner three for Jaylen
Entry pass to horgord, kicks to wide open corner three for Samrt
Entry pass to Horford, Tatum cuts, bad pass by Horford
Horford beats his man, kicks to Jaylen for wide open corner three
Ok then, let's keep running plays to kick out to a group of guys shooting 20-25% from 3 in the series, instead of dunking or hitting easy layups to find a rhythm, and maybe, just maybe force Miami out of the zone that we are scoring .76 points per trip against. I mean, shit, I could coach this team if all I have to do is tell them to keep doing what's not working.

"Hey Fellas, coach Death here, don't worry, the shots might fall, they might not, but good job, good effort. Sorry, I have nothing to else to add, even though there is wide FUCKING OPEN SPACE ALL OVER THE LANE FOR CUTTERS."

You should probably get through the 2nd half of the video where he starts showing the C's setting screens outside the 3 point line against a zone. Or when they just give up on getting the ball to the foul line, and shooting 3's off the bounce instead. Those are fun.
 

slamminsammya

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That completely misses the point on breaking the zone. That wide open 3 is going to be there even if one of the corner guys cuts the baseline. The other wing just relocates into that spot.

How many of those plays on that 6:00 minute reel ended up in wide open 3's, and how many did they make?

If someone cuts, how many of those plays would have resulted in an easy two?

He's right, and every other offense in the league destroys zones and mismatches in ways the C's do not, because it's basic as shit.
Is there any data to support this last assertion?
 

slamminsammya

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It was "low volume" bc Herro was in the lineup and Martin's minutes were limited.
I mean it's been discussed in the wagering thread all postseason. Granted it is an extreme for sure but these are a far different quality of shot with Jimmy creating inside/out catch and shoots than the non-rhythm threes they were taking all year when they "ran their stuff." It's been implied all postseason that Caleb Martin is some non-shooting stiff who got cut by the Hornets last month when I actually he's been a real good shooter for his two years in Miami.
Jimmy wasn't creating on a lot of Martins threes. Butler disappeared for long stretches. Go rewatch the Martin shots - he had a lot more off the dribble than his usual regular season avg.
 

slamminsammya

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Ok then, let's keep running plays to kick out to a group of guys shooting 20-25% from 3 in the series, instead of dunking or hitting easy layups to find a rhythm, and maybe, just maybe force Miami out of the zone that we are scoring .76 points per trip against. I mean, shit, I could coach this team if all I have to do is tell them to keep doing what's not working.

"Hey Fellas, coach Death here, don't worry, the shots might fall, they might not, but good job, good effort. Sorry, I have nothing to else to add, even though there is wide FUCKING OPEN SPACE ALL OVER THE LANE FOR CUTTERS."

You should probably get through the 2nd half of the video where he starts showing the C's setting screens outside the 3 point line against a zone. Or when they just give up on getting the ball to the foul line, and shooting 3's off the bounce instead. Those are fun.
Can you share a play where there was wide open space for cuts? I don't remember it that way.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Is there any data to support this last assertion?
There's a few places that support it (you'll notice it's mostly bad defensive teams that use zone):


https://hoop-social.com/the-twilight-zone-how-much-zone-defense-does-the-nba-use/

65721


65722

With the first view, we see that the NBA, in general, fares worse with zone defense than with man defense. Zone defense consistently gives up about 0.05 points per possession more.

The second chart shows the difference in points per possession for each team. This chart can be a bit misleading thanks to small sample sizes. Some teams, like the Grizzlies, look like masters of the zone. But that’s a trap.

If you refer to the previous chart earlier in the article, you’ll notice the Grizzlies have run zone just 0.3% of halfcourt possessions, or 13 total possessions this season, so we can’t draw any conclusions from that. The Hornets, on the other hand, run a lot of zone and have some success with it compared to their man defense.


Take these findings with a grain of salt, as this isn’t a strict apples-to-apples comparison, and sample size is low-to-zero for some teams. That said, it’s clear that zone isn’t a magic bullet for lousy defenses (or else we’d be seeing more of it).

With the increasing shooting and passing skill we see entering the league, it seems unlikely that the zone will ever amount to anything more than a gimmicky defense in the NBA.


https://hoop-social.com/the-twilight-zone-how-much-zone-defense-does-the-nba-use/


Here's one that includes a bunch of quotes from coaches on why they run the zone or don't:

https://www.nba.com/news/numbers-notebook-zone-defenses
 

slamminsammya

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There's a few places that support it (you'll notice it's mostly bad defensive teams that use zone):


https://hoop-social.com/the-twilight-zone-how-much-zone-defense-does-the-nba-use/

View attachment 65721


View attachment 65722

With the first view, we see that the NBA, in general, fares worse with zone defense than with man defense. Zone defense consistently gives up about 0.05 points per possession more.

The second chart shows the difference in points per possession for each team. This chart can be a bit misleading thanks to small sample sizes. Some teams, like the Grizzlies, look like masters of the zone. But that’s a trap.

If you refer to the previous chart earlier in the article, you’ll notice the Grizzlies have run zone just 0.3% of halfcourt possessions, or 13 total possessions this season, so we can’t draw any conclusions from that. The Hornets, on the other hand, run a lot of zone and have some success with it compared to their man defense.


Take these findings with a grain of salt, as this isn’t a strict apples-to-apples comparison, and sample size is low-to-zero for some teams. That said, it’s clear that zone isn’t a magic bullet for lousy defenses (or else we’d be seeing more of it).

With the increasing shooting and passing skill we see entering the league, it seems unlikely that the zone will ever amount to anything more than a gimmicky defense in the NBA.


https://hoop-social.com/the-twilight-zone-how-much-zone-defense-does-the-nba-use/


Here's one that includes a bunch of quotes from coaches on why they run the zone or don't:

https://www.nba.com/news/numbers-notebook-zone-defenses
Appreciate it. But I was referring to the assertion the Celtics struggle more with the zone on offense than other teams. I highly doubt that to be the case.
 

tbb345

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It was "low volume" bc Herro was in the lineup and Martin's minutes were limited.
I mean it's been discussed in the wagering thread all postseason. Granted it is an extreme for sure but these are a far different quality of shot with Jimmy creating inside/out catch and shoots than the non-rhythm threes they were taking all year when they "ran their stuff." It's been implied all postseason that Caleb Martin is some non-shooting stiff who got cut by the Hornets last month when I actually he's been a real good shooter for his two years in Miami.
Martin is a good player and he would fit on literally any team in the NBA and be a top 8 rotation player 100%.

However, he was almost the MVP of the Eastern Conference Finals, in a series that included Jimmy Butler/Bam Adebayo/Jayson Tatum/Jaylen Brown. I think you can both recognize that he is a good player and that he played the series of his life where he looked like a legitimate top 40 player in the entire league
 

Deathofthebambino

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Can you share a play where there was wide open space for cuts? I don't remember it that way.
I mean, it's literally on the prior page, watch the 1st like 10 possessions where the C's get the ball to the foul line against the zone. It is basketball 101 going back to high school for a team to send a corner cutting the baseline.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cC1ihhrz3M&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fsonsofsamhorn.net%2F&source_ve_path=OTY3MTQ&feature=emb_imp_woyt



A 3-2 zone isn't some new technology being invented by Spo. It's been around since, well, since I was playing in the 80's, at a minimum, and there are core ways to beat it, that don't just involve kicking out and hitting an open 3 (which is great if it works, but it didn't work):

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4Dt6Lqv-tI
 

Deathofthebambino

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Appreciate it. But I was referring to the assertion the Celtics struggle more with the zone on offense than other teams. I highly doubt that to be the case.
if the NBA average is .96 PPP against zone, and the C's went .76 in the series against Miami (the team that runs more zone than any other in the NBA), I don't know how much more evidence we need to show that the C's struggle against the zone. Teams do not use zone defenses in the NBA with any regularity, because it's something that can be punished by NBA offenses over and over and over again. You'll see the quotes, it's a "surprise" tactic or a "desperation" move or a "gimmick," in today's game. The fact that Miami had so much success with it against the C's is not common. Yeah, it should work maybe once or twice in he course of a series, but the C's were literally baffled by it for 7 games (and it's not the first time either for the C's against Miami).
 

Leon Trotsky

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if the NBA average is .96 PPP against zone, and the C's went .76 in the series against Miami (the team that runs more zone than any other in the NBA), I don't know how much more evidence we need to show that the C's struggle against the zone. Teams do not use zone defenses in the NBA with any regularity, because it's something that can be punished by NBA offenses over and over and over again. You'll see the quotes, it's a "surprise" tactic or a "desperation" move or a "gimmick," in today's game. The fact that Miami had so much success with it against the C's is not common. Yeah, it should work maybe once or twice in he course of a series, but the C's were literally baffled by it for 7 games (and it's not the first time either for the C's against Miami).
And then Denver was baffled by it in the 4th three days ago. Miami just seems to be really really good at it when they deploy it.

I agree with Death that being able to get dunks against the zone when 3's are just not falling, which those videos showed they could get, would be helpful if the C's recognized them faster.
 

tbb345

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I don't have any statistics to back this up but I watch a good amount of NBA games and consume a decent amount of podcasts and NBA media.
Going off of that, it definitely seems like the Celtics struggle against the zone more than other good NBA teams (something thats backed up by pretty much every national media member).
 

RorschachsMask

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Miami plays a relatively different version of zone than other teams, to be fair. They were playing kind of like a hybrid of zone and box-and one, to keep the ball out of Tatum’s hands any time the Celtics tried putting him in the middle.

They regularly give teams a ton of trouble with it, including Denver the other night. Spo is also really good about when to pull it out. There was one game in the Celtics series where he only used it in the 2nd and 4th quarters, but not one possession of it in the 1st and the 3rd.

Celtics should be better against it, just pointing out that the Heat are kind of in their own category when it comes to zone.
 

Myt1

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I can't watch more than half of that video because that dude has no idea what he is talking about. I can't believe you think he is spot on. He isn't.

His first 5 instances of "Boston not knowing what they are doing because Mazzulla is an idiot" resulted in 4 good looks (three wide open corner threes, and one layup by Tatum), and one bad pass by Horford. NBA teams would kill to get those 5 looks on those 5 possessions.

Good look at basket for Tatum - missed layup. Had Smart open if he passed
Entry pass to Horford, kicks to wide open corner three for Jaylen
Entry pass to horgord, kicks to wide open corner three for Samrt
Entry pass to Horford, Tatum cuts, bad pass by Horford
Horford beats his man, kicks to Jaylen for wide open corner three
There is no universe in which Tatum gets a “good look” at the basket on example 1, or in which that is a missed “layup.”
 

Just a bit outside

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The Heat zone works when teams miss open threes and looks terrible when they make them. Denver killed the zone in game 1 because they made three straight threes. I wonder if there is a certain amount of pressure players are putting on themselves in the fourth quarter of these tight games that makes it more effective. Teams miss a couple of open shots and then tense up.
 

slamminsammya

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I mean, it's literally on the prior page, watch the 1st like 10 possessions where the C's get the ball to the foul line against the zone. It is basketball 101 going back to high school for a team to send a corner cutting the baseline.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cC1ihhrz3M&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fsonsofsamhorn.net%2F&source_ve_path=OTY3MTQ&feature=emb_imp_woyt



A 3-2 zone isn't some new technology being invented by Spo. It's been around since, well, since I was playing in the 80's, at a minimum, and there are core ways to beat it, that don't just involve kicking out and hitting an open 3 (which is great if it works, but it didn't work):

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4Dt6Lqv-tI
I watched and I just don't agree with your assessment.

If you consistently generate good shots and just miss i wouldn't consider that being baffled. They didn't play well, i think it's a stretch to say they didn't know what to do.
 

RorschachsMask

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I think that guy in those videos is a fucking clown, honestly. Celtics got plenty of good looks, the Heat playing their guys so far up caused a bunch of turnovers, and that killed the Celtics as much as anything, besides almost everyone being cold from deep.

Celtics had so, so many momentum killing turnovers.
 
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Myt1

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He elevated over both guys and had a 5 foot layup that he just missed. Tatum makes that shot way more often than not.
It’s an off balance leaning pull up in a clogged lane against two defenders with position, with body contact, after being arm checked at the beginning of the drive, that hits back iron. Acting like teams are dying for that shot is sort of a credibility-killer right off the bat, IMHO.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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Yeah, I have to agree that "JUST CUT TO THE BASKET" is a little bit influenced by the fact that guys were missing wide-open corner threes. Especially as the early clips are early in the game and there's no reason yet to assume that everyone is cold.

The Cs as a whole made 40% of their corner threes this regular season. If it's quarter one, and my zone busting attempts are regularly resulting in wide open corner threes like the ones Jaylen and Smart miss in those videos, I think maybe I live with that. It's certainly not a disaster.

Would a cut result in a definite dunk? Maybe. But you already have a wide open three, which you know reliably results in 1.2 points per shot. All season long we've talked about how the Cs are going to die by the three. They did. I'm not sure the fact that it didn't work in the Eastern Conference Finals when game 7 didn't feature your best three point shooter and your star player was injured on the first play of the game is a reason to abandon the strategy.

Would a cut always have another pass for another wide open three? Maybe, but every pass is a turnover risk, especially against a Heat team that's good at forcing turnovers, and, well, you already have a wide open three, which is what you're trying to generate.

But, for sure, coming up to set screens 5 feet past the three point line against a zone is bad offense. And there are definitely some spacing things that need to be cleaned up.
 

the moops

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It’s an off balance leaning pull up in a clogged lane against two defenders with position, with body contact, after being arm checked at the beginning of the drive, that hits back iron. Acting like teams are dying for that shot is sort of a credibility-killer right off the bat, IMHO.
OK, maybe good was overstating it, but that is a decent look. He had Martin beat, and actually looks like he got fouled by Vincent. My overall point is that they got decent to good looks on a lot of these possessions they just missed their shots. That happens. It doesn't mean you have abandon your philosophy, when that philosophy got you those good looks
 

HomeRunBaker

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Martin is a good player and he would fit on literally any team in the NBA and be a top 8 rotation player 100%.

However, he was almost the MVP of the Eastern Conference Finals, in a series that included Jimmy Butler/Bam Adebayo/Jayson Tatum/Jaylen Brown. I think you can both recognize that he is a good player and that he played the series of his life where he looked like a legitimate top 40 player in the entire league
Yes I recognize as I said it was obviously extreme....but it shouldn't be shocking that a 38% 3-pt shooter goes off once he got more of an opportunity bc he's really good at it.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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The Heat zone works when teams miss open threes and looks terrible when they make them. Denver killed the zone in game 1 because they made three straight threes. I wonder if there is a certain amount of pressure players are putting on themselves in the fourth quarter of these tight games that makes it more effective. Teams miss a couple of open shots and then tense up.
I believe MIA made an adjustment in G2 to be more physical with Jokic when he was trying to get the ball at the FT line.

if the NBA average is .96 PPP against zone, and the C's went .76 in the series against Miami (the team that runs more zone than any other in the NBA), I don't know how much more evidence we need to show that the C's struggle against the zone.
First of all, MIA's zone isn't like most NBA zones.

Second of all, BOS's struggles against the MIA's zone had more than a little to do with injuries. The Brogdan injury really killed him because he was getting wide open looks and just couldn't hit them (after hitting them at 40+% during the season).

Given that they lost (and the way they lost), it's impossible to argue that the Cs couldn't have done better but CJM also played basketball and in fact played basketball for someone who I think wrote a book on how to attach zone defenses so the idea that he and the rest of his staff don't know something that we do seems a bridge too far to me.
 

TripleOT

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Miami plays with one center and a bunch of SF sized players or smaller. Why not punish the zone by cutting to the basket, especially after clanging threes over and over again? Brown averages 1.46 pps at the rim, Smart 1.45, White 1.41.
 

slamminsammya

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Miami plays with one center and a bunch of SF sized players or smaller. Why not punish the zone by cutting to the basket, especially after clanging threes over and over again? Brown averages 1.46 pps at the rim, Smart 1.45, White 1.41.
With those numbers why not take every shot at the rim?!
 

Myt1

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OK, maybe good was overstating it, but that is a decent look. He had Martin beat, and actually looks like he got fouled by Vincent. My overall point is that they got decent to good looks on a lot of these possessions they just missed their shots. That happens. It doesn't mean you have abandon your philosophy, when that philosophy got you those good looks
Cool. We good. ;)

I think a lot of teams hit a cutter there after drawing a double, though. Tough for non-Lebrons to draw the defense and sling a pass to the corner with accuracy and pace.
 

TripleOT

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Denver bludgeoned Miami’s defense in Game 3 by relentlessly taking the ball into the paint. Despite only 5 threes on 14 attempts, they took full control of the game in the second and third quarters by smartly attacking inside the Miami zone. Green and Braun went 9-9 at the rim off mostly nifty setups from Jokic and Murray, who both had 30 point triple doubles. When they weren’t making layups, Denver players were taking FTs.
 

Imbricus

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Okay, this guy's hyperventilating and abrasive, but still: I don't see how people think this is a good offense that the Celtics have on display here. I don't see any genius in the four-potted-plants-at-the-three-point line offense. It is wayyyy too static.

Why not send a guy cutting to the basket? That achieves a few things: (1) you get the defense in motion, maybe confuse them a little, which isn't a bad thing (2) you get another option, even if the three-point shot turns out to be your best choice on the play in the end (3) hell, if you start out with four guys at the three-point line, one can easily rotate into the corner, as he points out (4) you're probably in a better position to get an offensive rebound, with a couple of players underneath, instead of one underneath and four others at the three-point line.

I mean, look at the second sequence: Tatum gets the pass in to Horford, who has a mismatch. Four Celtics are pretty much stone-still on the three-point line. So three Heat players are able to converge on Horford, while two Heat players are free to roam to cover the three-point shooters on the perimeter, who are more or less standing there, so it's not hard to figure out where they're going to be in another two or three seconds. If you send just one of the four Celtics at the three-point line in motion, you still have three of them out there ... this isn't like you're giving up a three-point shot. In fact, you may get an easier three-point shot if you scramble the defense.

I may be in the minority, but this offense just looks way too stagnant. If this was actually Joe's plan, color me depressed.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Okay, this guy's hyperventilating and abrasive, but still: I don't see how people think this is a good offense that the Celtics have on display here. I don't see any genius in the four-potted-plants-at-the-three-point line offense. It is wayyyy too static.

Why not send a guy cutting to the basket? That achieves a few things: (1) you get the defense in motion, maybe confuse them a little, which isn't a bad thing (2) you get another option, even if the three-point shot turns out to be your best choice on the play in the end (3) hell, if you start out with four guys at the three-point line, one can easily rotate into the corner, as he points out (4) you're probably in a better position to get an offensive rebound, with a couple of players underneath, instead of one underneath and four others at the three-point line.

I mean, look at the second sequence: Tatum gets the pass in to Horford, who has a mismatch. Four Celtics are pretty much stone-still on the three-point line. So three Heat players are able to converge on Horford, while two Heat players are free to roam to cover the three-point shooters on the perimeter, who are more or less standing there, so it's not hard to figure out where they're going to be in another two or three seconds. If you send just one of the four Celtics at the three-point line in motion, you still have three of them out there ... this isn't like you're giving up a three-point shot. In fact, you may get an easier three-point shot if you scramble the defense.

I may be in the minority, but this offense just looks way too stagnant. If this was actually Joe's plan, color me depressed.
You may be in the minority, but I'm hanging around with you there. This is what I've been trying to say for a few pages now.
 

the moops

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I mean, look at the second sequence: Tatum gets the pass in to Horford, who has a mismatch. Four Celtics are pretty much stone-still on the three-point line. So three Heat players are able to converge on Horford, while two Heat players are free to roam to cover the three-point shooters on the perimeter, who are more or less standing there, so it's not hard to figure out where they're going to be in another two or three seconds.
If Marcus Smart cuts to the basket, as that guy was screaming for him to do, it accomplishes nothing. Horford's back is to him, with, as you said three guys converging on him. Horford makes a great pass to Jaylen who is wide open for a corner three.

Teams would absolutely love to get that look every single time down the floor against the MIA zone.

65755horford.PNG
 

benhogan

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Okay, this guy's hyperventilating and abrasive, but still: I don't see how people think this is a good offense that the Celtics have on display here. I don't see any genius in the four-potted-plants-at-the-three-point line offense. It is wayyyy too static.

Why not send a guy cutting to the basket? That achieves a few things: (1) you get the defense in motion, maybe confuse them a little, which isn't a bad thing (2) you get another option, even if the three-point shot turns out to be your best choice on the play in the end (3) hell, if you start out with four guys at the three-point line, one can easily rotate into the corner, as he points out (4) you're probably in a better position to get an offensive rebound, with a couple of players underneath, instead of one underneath and four others at the three-point line.

I mean, look at the second sequence: Tatum gets the pass in to Horford, who has a mismatch. Four Celtics are pretty much stone-still on the three-point line. So three Heat players are able to converge on Horford, while two Heat players are free to roam to cover the three-point shooters on the perimeter, who are more or less standing there, so it's not hard to figure out where they're going to be in another two or three seconds. If you send just one of the four Celtics at the three-point line in motion, you still have three of them out there ... this isn't like you're giving up a three-point shot. In fact, you may get an easier three-point shot if you scramble the defense.

I may be in the minority, but this offense just looks way too stagnant. If this was actually Joe's plan, color me depressed.
+1 Yep! A Potted Plant offense is exactly what Miami's zone defense wanted to create.

On offense, you always want movement as opposed to being stagnant. Having the corner guy cut/flash to the basket, once the ball hits the nail, is basic to attacking a zone. With the others rotating, there will always be a man available for the Corner3. It's borderline hilarious that there is an ounce of pushback here, especially when the player cutting would be Jaylen Brown, who is fukn amazing when he is doing that.

ADD in the only thing worse than having Marcus launch contested Corner3s, is having Jaylen Brown shoot Corner3s (28% this season). If Boston wanted that shot we have 5 other guys on this team that can hit Corner3s at a much higher rate. Spoelstra was absolutely thrilled every time those two sat in the Corner and didn't attack the rim.

Don't be depressed, I'm also pretty sure CJM wanted movement and the players just didn't execute.
 
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mcpickl

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+1 Yep! A Potted Plant offense is exactly what Miami's zone defense wanted to create.

On offense, you always want movement as opposed to being stagnant. Having the corner guy cut/flash to the basket, once the ball hits the nail, is basic to attacking a zone. With the others rotating, there will always be a man available for the Corner3. It's borderline hilarious that there is an ounce of pushback here, especially when the player cutting would be Jaylen Brown, who is fukn amazing when he is doing that.

ADD in the only thing worse than having Marcus launch contested Corner3s, is having Jaylen Brown shoot Corner3s (28% this season). If Boston wanted that shot we have 5 other guys on this team that can hit Corner3s at a much higher rate. Spoelstra was absolutely thrilled every time those two sat in the Corner and didn't attack the rim.

Don't be depressed, I'm also pretty sure CJM wanted movement and the players just didn't execute.
I can't imagine Spoelstra was absolutely thrilled with Marcus Smart sitting in the Corner.

He shot 7 for 16 from there in the Heat series.

Jaylen for sure tho, he was 2 for 13
 

benhogan

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I can't imagine Spoelstra was absolutely thrilled with Marcus Smart sitting in the Corner.

He shot 7 for 16 from there in the Heat series.

Jaylen for sure tho, he was 2 for 13
I can imagine it.

We're all happy Marcus hit an extra 3 in this series and shot 36% from 3 in the playoffs BUT JB & Smart have been two of the C's worst Corner3 shooters for a couple of years now. They don't even shoot that many Corner3s which makes it questionable to begin with if that was the strategy. Most importantly Jaylen (or Smart) not attacking the hoop when nobody is guarding them is a win for the Heat.

Frankly, it's not even an attack on Smart or Brown's shooting, it just an assessment of the lack of players cutting/movement against the zone.
 

mcpickl

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I can imagine it.

We're all happy Marcus hit an extra 3 in this series and shot 36% from 3 in the playoffs BUT JB & Smart have been two of the C's worst Corner3 shooters for a couple of years now. They don't even shoot that many Corner3s which makes it questionable to begin with if that was the strategy. Most importantly Jaylen (or Smart) not attacking the hoop when nobody is guarding them is a win for the Heat.

Frankly, it's not even an attack on Smart or Brown's shooting, it just an assessment of the lack of players cutting/movement against the zone.
It's hard to get a better shot than an open corner three.

Those are real nice
 

benhogan

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It's hard to get a better shot than an open corner three.

Those are real nice
Indeed. Love the Corner3. It also bends the defense & puts a defender in a bad transitional position off a miss. BUT a weak side baseline cut hurts a zone even more. Especially when players on the weak side wing rotate into the Corner (creating an even more wide open Corner3 since the cutter draws attention or gets a slam)

45 years of closely watching Syracuse's zone get burned has scarred me.
 
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koufax32

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It's hard to get a better shot than an open corner three.

Those are real nice
40% from 3 is equivalent to 60% from inside the arc. You have to think BOS could get a better percentage than 60% had off ball guys been slashing to the basket. If you up the 2 pt percentage to 70%, you’d have to hit half of your 3’s to make that a better shot option.

This is a team that, in CJM’s own words is obsessed with the 3. It’s not always the best shot and it doesn’t seem they believe that.
 

slamminsammya

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40% from 3 is equivalent to 60% from inside the arc. You have to think BOS could get a better percentage than 60% had off ball guys been slashing to the basket. If you up the 2 pt percentage to 70%, you’d have to hit half of your 3’s to make that a better shot option.

This is a team that, in CJM’s own words is obsessed with the 3. It’s not always the best shot and it doesn’t seem they believe that.
In half court offense a 40% 3 pointer is an excellent shot. The idea that "well you could have done better" is a little crazy to me. Any possession ending with a shooter having a wide open corner 3 is a fantastic success.
 

koufax32

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In half court offense a 40% 3 pointer is an excellent shot. The idea that "well you could have done better" is a little crazy to me. Any possession ending with a shooter having a wide open corner 3 is a fantastic success.
Absolutely a fantastic shot choice. But an extremely high percentage shot within five feet is statistically a better one.
 

koufax32

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Yeah, even better is a slam dunk why don't they choose to take a slam dunk every possession.
Because everyone else was camped on the 3pt line? The problem is not the open 3 pt shot. It’s abandoning any chance of a better one by not cutting or movement without the ball. I think you know that though judging by the snark.
 

Jimbodandy

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Because everyone else was camped on the 3pt line? The problem is not the open 3 pt shot. It’s abandoning any chance of a better one by not cutting or movement without the ball. I think you know that though judging by the snark.
I mean, if your point is that they could have had layups instead, that's fine. It's basically the only shot that's better than a corner 3.

Probably should make the case that those layups were there and that the Celtics opted for threes instead. I'm not sure that it's true.
 

Imbricus

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I think we're getting too hung up on whether the best shot was a layup or a three-pointer. Maybe it would have been a layup. Maybe it would have been a contested layup. Maybe it would have been a three-pointer, open or not.

But the problem is, hardly anyone from the Celtics is moving, if you start watching at 0:39. Jayson effectively stops moving after getting the pass in to Horford. He becomes another fixture out near the three-point line. Jaylen is open when he gets the pass from Horford, but then gets closed on hard. Why (apart from fact the Horford is triple-teamed, so it's more likely he'll have to pass away)? Because (1) enough teams have seen the Celtics give up shots near the basket that they know the pass will probably be going to the perimeter anyway (2) The Heat know right from the get go where everyone is, because this offense is so stagnant.

To me this offense only makes sense if either (1) you live in a world where shooting near the basket is at current percentages, but beyond the three-point line, it's like 60%, so you should be taking a three-point shot pretty much all the time (2) you're Gonzaga playing the Miami Heat, and the only chance you have to win is to get lucky out at the three-point line.

On some level, the argument should be just that they need to move. This offense is just too easy to defend. The Heat are constantly aware of the three-point shooters. They don't believe the Celtics will try hard to take a layup, and so all they need to do is put up a little pressure inside, then get ready to close hard on the three-point shooter. This makes playing defense much easier. The answer isn't taking all layups in this situation. Or all three-point shots. It's getting some bodies in motion, getting the defense guessing, and looking for some good shots near the basket, as well as some good three-pointers, and adjusting the mix depending on what's working best.
 

HomeRunBaker

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+1 Yep! A Potted Plant offense is exactly what Miami's zone defense wanted to create.

On offense, you always want movement as opposed to being stagnant. Having the corner guy cut/flash to the basket, once the ball hits the nail, is basic to attacking a zone. With the others rotating, there will always be a man available for the Corner3. It's borderline hilarious that there is an ounce of pushback here, especially when the player cutting would be Jaylen Brown, who is fukn amazing when he is doing that.

ADD in the only thing worse than having Marcus launch contested Corner3s, is having Jaylen Brown shoot Corner3s (28% this season). If Boston wanted that shot we have 5 other guys on this team that can hit Corner3s at a much higher rate. Spoelstra was absolutely thrilled every time those two sat in the Corner and didn't attack the rim.

Don't be depressed, I'm also pretty sure CJM wanted movement and the players just didn't execute.
This is incorrect. Against a zone defense you want ball movement to beat the rotations, not player movement, as the defenses are primarily defending space and not the player. It does seem funny that the play being criticized resulted in an open three which, aside from an uncontested layup (very unlikely against a zone) is the desired result.
 

benhogan

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This is incorrect. Against a zone defense you want ball movement to beat the rotations, not player movement, as the defenses are primarily defending space and not the player. It does seem funny that the play being criticized resulted in an open three which, aside from an uncontested layup (very unlikely against a zone) is the desired result.
Christian Braun should be benched for cutting baseline I guess

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcZ1B4QjhE0
 

HomeRunBaker

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Christian Braun should be benched for cutting baseline I guess
As has been repeated numerous times....most teams don't have a Jokic to slice the defense. Braun is also, as a rookie, arguably the best cutter into space that the game has today. Personnel, and their skillsets, matter.
 
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Imbricus

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This is incorrect. Against a zone defense you want ball movement to beat the rotations, not player movement, as the defenses are primarily defending space and not the player. It does seem funny that the play being criticized resulted in an open three which, aside from an uncontested layup (very unlikely against a zone) is the desired result.
Ball movement is part of it, not all of it. See here, on how to beat a zone, number three especially:

#1 Don’t Stand, Move With a Purpose Against the Zone

#3 Hard Cuts Through the Zone

Players must be cutting hard and with purpose, even if they aren’t getting the ball. If a player can execute a hard cut to the basket, it is going to force the defense to respect them, and that means that either they are going to get a scoring opportunity, or it is going to open up a scoring opportunity for someone else. However, if the player doesn’t cut hard, the defense doesn’t respect the cut, and there is no shifting or over helping.

Hard cuts are extremely important in beating a zone defense in basketball
. You must force the defense to respect and guard every player that cuts through the zone. This will force the defense to move and communicate, which will lead to (you guessed it) more potential defensive breakdowns.
 

benhogan

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As has been repeated numerous times....most teams don't have a Jokic to slice the defense. Braun is also, as a rookie, arguably the best cutter into space that the game has today. Personnel, and their skillsets, matter.
Jaylen Bown's super power on offense is what exactly?

that's right, cutting/attacking the rim.

Horford is one of the Top5 passing BIGs in the game