Jaylen Brown, Year 7

BigSoxFan

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I don't think I will ever get over the Caleb Martin thing. The guy got cut by the freaking Hornets and was going to go to Europe.....and then he turns into Michael Jordan over 7 games against the Celtics.
Right there with you. Getting taken out by Curry, Giannis, Durant, Butler, etc. sucks but you can live with that. Great players doing what they do. When a role player like Martin destroys you for 7 full games that's, well, tough to take. It'd be like a #8-9 hitter in baseball hitting batting .440 with 5 home runs or something against the Sox in a playoff series. I would be absolutely sick right now if I were the Jay's.
 

jezza1918

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Right there with you. Getting taken out by Curry, Giannis, Durant, Butler, etc. sucks but you can live with that. Great players doing what they do. When a role player like Martin destroys you for 7 full games that's, well, tough to take. It'd be like a #8-9 hitter in baseball hitting batting .440 with 5 home runs or something against the Sox in a playoff series. I would be absolutely sick right now if I were the Jay's.
2018 Steve Pearce and JBJ say hello! Sorry, needed something positive...
 

Cellar-Door

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Brad saying today that he would like to keep Jaylen.
View: https://twitter.com/NBCSCeltics/status/1664309968848265216

"I'm not allowed to talk about the contract details, let alone the extension... but I can say without a doubt we want Jaylen to be here." Brad Stevens on Jaylen Brown's contract extension
not surprising at all. Most likely outcome has always been they will offer him some type of extension above 30%, maybe even the full 35%. And most likely situation on his side has always been he'll negotiate trying to get to 35%, but that whether he gets there or is in the 32-33% range signing it makes the most sense for him, even if it means waiting a year then demanding a trade. Leaving a bunch of money on the table to go somewhere else doesn't really make sense when you're on a contender.
 

NomarsFool

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I don't think I will ever get over the Caleb Martin thing. The guy got cut by the freaking Hornets and was going to go to Europe.....and then he turns into Michael Jordan over 7 games against the Celtics.
It would be funny if it didn't hurt so much, but I can totally see myself saying "The Celtics need to shut down Bam and Butler and if Caleb Martin ends up beating you, well tip your cap to him".
 

reggiecleveland

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I think it was game 5 they really started running and after that i thought I saw miami really busting their asses back. It takes two to tango in creating transition opportunities.
I disagree. First of all what it mostly takes to run is stops. Then It takes time and persistence to run. You make the other team get back they will make mistakes. YOu can always the pull the ball back out and stand around a jack a 3, which what was happening anyway. They took one of their best guys, JB and put him in bad spots.
 

Cellar-Door

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I've seen a ton of "Jaylen Brown needs to work on nothing but his handle all summer" stuff, but I wonder.... maybe the real answer is "Jaylen Brown needs to embrace a different role" There is another 6'7" guard I can think of who has a garbage handle, and is likely a first ballot HOF.... Klay Thompson.

Now Jaylen is never gonna be Klay as a shooter, but... if he's a 37% catch and shoot from 3 the last 3 seasons (this year brought it down, he was 40% the previous two), he won't hit 41% from 3 like Klay consistently, but he'll be more of a threat to attack closeouts, he'll be a more athletic finisher on cuts and back cuts. He focuses on that part of his game (shooting, coming off screens, movement offense) and taking a step up defensively, I think that makes him a better player than trying to be Kobe.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I disagree. First of all what it mostly takes to run is stops. Then It takes time and persistence to run. You make the other team get back they will make mistakes. YOu can always the pull the ball back out and stand around a jack a 3, which what was happening anyway. They took one of their best guys, JB and put him in bad spots.
What makes this so frustrating is that the Celtics are usually a good transition team.. when they run. But they often don't. I still have nightmares about how terrible the Antoine Walker Celtics teams were in transition - this team is nothing like that one.

And even if the defense gets back quickly, pushing it can create mismatches. There was one play against the Heat where they Celtics pushed it, and Miami got back, but Miami got back with Lowry guarding Horford in the post. They spotted it and gave Horford the ball for an easy 2.

One thing I like about White (of many things I like about White) is that I think he pushes it more aggressively than any of the other Celtic ballhandlers.
 

radsoxfan

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I've seen a ton of "Jaylen Brown needs to work on nothing but his handle all summer" stuff, but I wonder.... maybe the real answer is "Jaylen Brown needs to embrace a different role" There is another 6'7" guard I can think of who has a garbage handle, and is likely a first ballot HOF.... Klay Thompson.

Now Jaylen is never gonna be Klay as a shooter, but... if he's a 37% catch and shoot from 3 the last 3 seasons (this year brought it down, he was 40% the previous two), he won't hit 41% from 3 like Klay consistently, but he'll be more of a threat to attack closeouts, he'll be a more athletic finisher on cuts and back cuts. He focuses on that part of his game (shooting, coming off screens, movement offense) and taking a step up defensively, I think that makes him a better player than trying to be Kobe.
It's a thought, but seems to me so much of his value is tied to his driving ability. Such a different player than Klay.

If he could adopt some more off the ball movement, catch-and-shoot, backdoors, and improve his 3 that would be great... but I don't see him coming close to his full potential without the driving.

Fully unlocking that likely requires a better handle. At minimum, better decision making and not going into traffic so much. His handle when he's in space is actually not bad, he just gets stripped easily and is careless in traffic.
 

lovegtm

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I've seen a ton of "Jaylen Brown needs to work on nothing but his handle all summer" stuff, but I wonder.... maybe the real answer is "Jaylen Brown needs to embrace a different role" There is another 6'7" guard I can think of who has a garbage handle, and is likely a first ballot HOF.... Klay Thompson.

Now Jaylen is never gonna be Klay as a shooter, but... if he's a 37% catch and shoot from 3 the last 3 seasons (this year brought it down, he was 40% the previous two), he won't hit 41% from 3 like Klay consistently, but he'll be more of a threat to attack closeouts, he'll be a more athletic finisher on cuts and back cuts. He focuses on that part of his game (shooting, coming off screens, movement offense) and taking a step up defensively, I think that makes him a better player than trying to be Kobe.
I fully agree that "better driving, worse shooting Klay" is his best path to being worth a supermax. (I may have been among the first to make the Klay comparison, earlier in this thread, so I'm totally on-board with you.)

It's not that Jaylen is exactly the same as Klay, but rather that there's a ton of value in finishing what another superstar starts, whether that's shooting a ridiculous % on volume from 3, or being just good from 3 and being elite at attacking scrambled defenses.

HOWEVER, Jaylen is missing one key ingredient that Klay has: Steph. To unlock that version of Jaylen, Tatum would take to take a pretty huge leap to being even more of an offensive engine than he is. The Celtics probably will never go full heliocentric, nor should they, but they might need a 6-7 assists/game version of Tatum to make Klay-Jaylen really work. An alternative would be someone like White taking another step as an initiator, but I think he is what he is at this point.

If they re-sign Jaylen and go all-in on him and Tatum, at least for a season, it's because they think they can make something like this work. It's tricky, and they would probably need to flip Brogdon into a better playmaking guard to really do this.
 

TripleOT

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Hopefully for JB, I hope he doesn’t handle the bag like he did the basketball in Game 7. For someone so intelligent, he plays like a moron way too often. I’m one of the biggest Brown supporters on this board, and am totally sick of his fumbling act in big moments.
 

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Hopefully for JB, I hope he doesn’t handle the bag like he did the basketball in Game 7. For someone so intelligent, he plays like a moron way too often. I’m one of the biggest Brown supporters on this board, and am totally sick of his fumbling act in big moments.
Aside from his clear lack of handle, Jaylen just seems like a guy who plays worse when he’s “thinking”. The stuff he is best at like transition scoring, shooting, on-the-ball defense are more instinct-oriented.

The areas where you need to be heady, like passing, off-the-ball defense, etc. are where he really struggles. The dribbling issue feels like a physical issue to me. Some people are just naturals at certain aspects of sports. The dude worked his ass off to get to where he is and he still sucks at dribbling. I have really low expectations for any material improvement there.

I can deal with all of these issues when he’s a 38% 3 point shooter. Can’t have these 33-34% seasons.
 

TripleOT

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Aside from his clear lack of handle, Jaylen just seems like a guy who plays worse when he’s “thinking”. The stuff he is best at like transition scoring, shooting, on-the-ball defense are more instinct-oriented.

The areas where you need to be heady, like passing, off-the-ball defense, etc. are where he really struggles. The dribbling issue feels like a physical issue to me. Some people are just naturals at certain aspects of sports. The dude worked his ass off to get to where he is and he still sucks at dribbling. I have really low expectations for any material improvement there.

I can deal with all of these issues when he’s a 38% 3 point shooter. Can’t have these 33-34% seasons.
Paying a player incapable of playing thinking basketball $50 million a year is probably not a good idea. JB needs to be accountable for his mental weaknesses on the court, and do something about it. After seven years of big stage basketball, he probably is never going to “get it,” unfortunately. That’s going to be a problem. can a coach bench a player making a third of a team’s salary cap for the next half decade? No, he can’t. Your max guy or guys are your franchise, virtually partners with your coach, and not subordinates.
 

Jimbodandy

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Paying a player incapable of playing thinking basketball $50 million a year is probably not a good idea. JB needs to be accountable for his mental weaknesses on the court, and do something about it. After seven years of big stage basketball, he probably is never going to “get it,” unfortunately. That’s going to be a problem. can a coach bench a player making a third of a team’s salary cap for the next half decade? No, he can’t. Your max guy or guys are your franchise, virtually partners with your coach, and not subordinates.
You just didn't watch the steady stream of games where he carried the team.

"Doesn't get it". Christ. Tatum took a dump on the court for six games in last year's finals and nobody says that.
 

TripleOT

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You just didn't watch the steady stream of games where he carried the team.

"Doesn't get it". Christ. Tatum took a dump on the court for six games in last year's finals and nobody says that.
I have watched at least 98% of the games JB has played for the Celtics over his career, and every playoff game. Making the same critical mistakes over and over again in big playoff moments is why I wrote that JB doesn’t get it. Brown has played his entire career with high leverage playoff minutes, and continues to make idiotic turnovers in key moments. Defensively, he is prone to mental errors in big spots, like leaving Harden in the corner to unnecessarily doubleteam a player inside the arc with a two point lead.

I have probably been one of the people on here who has believed in JB the most, from since he was drafted. I love his work ethic, and I support and admire his off court community work. It just befuddles me that someone so smart, so talented, and so driven continues to make stupid plays in big moments.
 

Jimbodandy

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I have watched at least 98% of the games JB has played for the Celtics over his career, and every playoff game. Making the same critical mistakes over and over again in big playoff moments is why I wrote that JB doesn’t get it. Brown has played his entire career with high leverage playoff minutes, and continues to make idiotic turnovers in key moments. Defensively, he is prone to mental errors in big spots, like leaving Harden in the corner to unnecessarily doubleteam a player inside the arc with a two point lead.

I have probably been one of the people on here who has believed in JB the most, from since he was drafted. I love his work ethic, and I support and admire his off court community work. It just befuddles me that someone so smart, so talented, and so driven continues to make stupid plays in big moments.
So it's the eyeball test, not actual numbers. Got it.
 

Auger34

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Until that Game 7, I've always though of Jaylen as a clutch performer. There's no doubt he has made some defensive mistakes but I've always trusted him on offense.

I don't have any numbers to back this up but just an opposing "eye test" view
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I have watched at least 98% of the games JB has played for the Celtics over his career, and every playoff game. Making the same critical mistakes over and over again in big playoff moments is why I wrote that JB doesn’t get it. Brown has played his entire career with high leverage playoff minutes, and continues to make idiotic turnovers in key moments. Defensively, he is prone to mental errors in big spots, like leaving Harden in the corner to unnecessarily doubleteam a player inside the arc with a two point lead.

I have probably been one of the people on here who has believed in JB the most, from since he was drafted. I love his work ethic, and I support and admire his off court community work. It just befuddles me that someone so smart, so talented, and so driven continues to make stupid plays in big moments.
Have you forgotten that JB was probably the best and most consistent Celtic in last year's Finals?

Unlike most #3 picks who are guards or wings, JB has never been a primary ballhandler and until two years ago, he wasn't even the #2 ballhandler. JB was raw to begin with and his growth was stunted by being drafted into a really talented team.

I think JB still has room to grow with respect to his ballhandling and playmaking. And despite his horrible G7 and not great MIA series (where he might have been injured), his handle has definitely gotten better since he came into the league. I also think it's pretty clear that a team with JB as its second best player can win a championship.

I don't know when he stops progressing but hopefully (to me) when that happens, he'll be in a Celtic uniform and will have at least one ring.
 

RorschachsMask

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This surprised me as I hadn’t looked in awhile, but Jaylen ended the season 34th in DARKO.

This postseason, they had a -12.4 net rating with Jaylen led lineups, last year it was -8.7. Which leads me to my bigger point.

This isn’t about keeping or trading Jaylen, but why did we get White and Brogdon if we were going to continue having Jaylen run the offense when Tatum sits? Early in the season, Jaylen was on the record that the team wanted him to spend the summer working on being off ball more, what exactly changed? I know he made comments to Bobby Manning early on that he wanted the ball in his hands more often, which all players understandably want, but that’s where the staff needs to do what is best for the team.
 

Auger34

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This surprised me as I hadn’t looked in awhile, but Jaylen ended the season 34th in DARKO.

This postseason, they had a -12.4 net rating with Jaylen led lineups, last year it was -8.7. Which leads me to my bigger point.

This isn’t about keeping or trading Jaylen, but why did we get White and Brogdon if we were going to continue having Jaylen run the offense when Tatum sits? Early in the season, Jaylen was on the record that the team wanted him to spend the summer working on being off ball more, what exactly changed? I know he made comments to Bobby Manning early on that he wanted the ball in his hands more often, which all players want, but that’s where the staff needs to do what is best for the team.
I don’t know but I think it would be a smart adjustment to let White/Smart/Brogdon bring up the ball a good 90% of the time. The 3 of them are actual guards and seem to be much better at getting people where they need to be and doing what needs to be done than both the Jays (Brown more so than Tatum)
 

RorschachsMask

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I don’t know but I think it would be a smart adjustment to let White/Smart/Brogdon bring up the ball a good 90% of the time. The 3 of them are actual guards and seem to be much better at getting people where they need to be and doing what needs to be done than both the Jays (Brown more so than Tatum)
I just want what’s best for the team. Jaylen is a killer off ball, capitalize on that more often.

I’m completely in favor of moving Brogdon, as I think him and Jaylen are too similar to play together a lot lol.
 

Auger34

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I just want what’s best for the team. Jaylen is a killer off ball, capitalize on that more often.

I’m completely in favor of moving Brogdon, as I think him and Jaylen are too similar to play together a lot lol.
Agreed.

I think both Jaylen and Jayson are better getting the ball after it’s crossed halfcourt and they can scan the defense a bit (again, Jaylen definitely more than Jayson)
 

RorschachsMask

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Agreed.

I think both Jaylen and Jayson are better getting the ball after it’s crossed halfcourt and they can scan the defense a bit (again, Jaylen definitely more than Jayson)
I agree, while I love what the ball in Tatum’s hands at the top does to other teams defenses, he will always be the most dangerous getting the the ball in better position.

I understand why Jaylen wants the ball more, but I think the sample is large enough now that we can see it’s not the best path. We can’t be having -9 and -12 net ratings when Tatum sits in the playoffs, and Jaylen is in. This team is too talented for that, yet it’s consistently the case. Just for comparison sake, the Nuggets are -2.4 with Murray on and Jokic off, in these playoffs.

I don’t know if the Celtics will offer the full supermax, though I’d lean that way. But if they don’t, they better have a contingency plan lol.
 
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TripleOT

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Have you forgotten that JB was probably the best and most consistent Celtic in last year's Finals?

Unlike most #3 picks who are guards or wings, JB has never been a primary ballhandler and until two years ago, he wasn't even the #2 ballhandler. JB was raw to begin with and his growth was stunted by being drafted into a really talented team.

I think JB still has room to grow with respect to his ballhandling and playmaking. And despite his horrible G7 and not great MIA series (where he might have been injured), his handle has definitely gotten better since he came into the league. I also think it's pretty clear that a team with JB as its second best player can win a championship.

I don't know when he stops progressing but hopefully (to me) when that happens, he'll be in a Celtic uniform and will have at least one ring.
I always thought that JB could be a decent creator for others, but he just hasn’t shown much growth in that area. It might be in large part because of his role as a scorer, but for his last three years as an established star, he’s given us an assist every ten minutes of playing time, and a turnover every nine. He really hasn’t progressed much as a passer since his first year as a starter, and it’s not logical to think he’s going to become a great passer in year eight.

But he doesn’t have to be a great passer for Boston to win a title with him. He does need to cut down on the turnovers and mental lapses. I think Boston should and will supermax him, but there should be at least some debate about making that commitment to a one dimensional scorer who, despite having top of the league defensive skills, hasn’t performed recently as a top defender.
 

Deathofthebambino

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This surprised me as I hadn’t looked in awhile, but Jaylen ended the season 34th in DARKO.

This postseason, they had a -12.4 net rating with Jaylen led lineups, last year it was -8.7. Which leads me to my bigger point.

This isn’t about keeping or trading Jaylen, but why did we get White and Brogdon if we were going to continue having Jaylen run the offense when Tatum sits? Early in the season, Jaylen was on the record that the team wanted him to spend the summer working on being off ball more, what exactly changed? I know he made comments to Bobby Manning early on that he wanted the ball in his hands more often, which all players understandably want, but that’s where the staff needs to do what is best for the team.
Coaching.

This offense was a clusterfuck when their 3's didn't fall. I said it over and over again throughout the regular season, this team was only going to lose if they got hurt and their 3's didn't fall. Both of those ended up coming to pass.

An offense against a zone that doesn't take advantage of cutting when you get the ball to the nail is insane. An offense that continually runs PnR's into the teeth of a zone is fucking insane. There were no adjustments on that side of the ball, just hope the 3's fall, and if they don't, well....

It's really hard to create and generate assists where the only time you can get one is by driving into 3 guys, kicking it out and hoping the guy makes a 25 footer.

This is why, IMO, Smart has to go. If Coach Joe wants to continue to run this kind of 3 heavy offense, Marcus is always going to be the guy that our opponents give no respect to at the arc. Tatum and Brown will face defenders coming at them from every direction. They were talented enough to win a lot of games because they are talented enough to make a ton of their shots, but this team was soooooooooooooo bad all season long when their shots weren't falling, because there was no plan B.
 

JakeRae

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Coaching.

This offense was a clusterfuck when their 3's didn't fall. I said it over and over again throughout the regular season, this team was only going to lose if they got hurt and their 3's didn't fall. Both of those ended up coming to pass.

An offense against a zone that doesn't take advantage of cutting when you get the ball to the nail is insane. An offense that continually runs PnR's into the teeth of a zone is fucking insane. There were no adjustments on that side of the ball, just hope the 3's fall, and if they don't, well....

It's really hard to create and generate assists where the only time you can get one is by driving into 3 guys, kicking it out and hoping the guy makes a 25 footer.

This is why, IMO, Smart has to go. If Coach Joe wants to continue to run this kind of 3 heavy offense, Marcus is always going to be the guy that our opponents give no respect to at the arc. Tatum and Brown will face defenders coming at them from every direction. They were talented enough to win a lot of games because they are talented enough to make a ton of their shots, but this team was soooooooooooooo bad all season long when their shots weren't falling, because there was no plan B.
Yes. Smart, who shot 36% from three in the playoffs and 36% from three against the Heat was the problem. It wasn’t that Tatum shot 23% against the Heat, Brogdon shot 17%, Brown shot 16%, and Horford shot 28%. Nope, it was one of three guys who actually made his threes (along with White and Grant) who broke the offense.
 

slamminsammya

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Coaching.

This offense was a clusterfuck when their 3's didn't fall. I said it over and over again throughout the regular season, this team was only going to lose if they got hurt and their 3's didn't fall. Both of those ended up coming to pass.

An offense against a zone that doesn't take advantage of cutting when you get the ball to the nail is insane. An offense that continually runs PnR's into the teeth of a zone is fucking insane. There were no adjustments on that side of the ball, just hope the 3's fall, and if they don't, well....

It's really hard to create and generate assists where the only time you can get one is by driving into 3 guys, kicking it out and hoping the guy makes a 25 footer.

This is why, IMO, Smart has to go. If Coach Joe wants to continue to run this kind of 3 heavy offense, Marcus is always going to be the guy that our opponents give no respect to at the arc. Tatum and Brown will face defenders coming at them from every direction. They were talented enough to win a lot of games because they are talented enough to make a ton of their shots, but this team was soooooooooooooo bad all season long when their shots weren't falling, because there was no plan B.
This is letting a certain Al Horford off the hook who would get the ball top of the key and repeatedly not even look at the hoop. The heat were begging him to try to score down low.
 

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I want the PG to push the ball all game, every game next season. No letting the inbounds pass roll, no Tatum or Smart slow walking it up and just beating the 8 second clock across half court. Matriculate the ball down the court on offense consistently.

And on defense pick, ‘em up at half court. Their defense was OK in Game 7 but I much prefer the aggressive, pick ‘em up at half, court, pressure defense that I saw in games 5 & 6. Creates a lot more errors by the opponent.

Do that on a daily basis and I’m all in on running it back with this group.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I think they need to run more plays where Brown is supposed to be the finisher and fewer where he starts with the ball. They don't run a lot of plays where a shooter comes around a pick, gets the ball, and shoots. Brown could do that.

I also think he needs to rely more on his mid range game when he is driving. If he focuses more on creating good midrange shots for himself when he drives, that will minimize his tunrovers and failed plays where he drives and gets swalowed up by a collapsing defense. I think he seemed to be starting to get this around the time when Tatum broke his face but I don't think he ever really got it together after that.

Maybe Cassell, with all of his NBA experience playing in a very different league with a much higher view of the value of midrange shots, can help with that.
 
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benhogan

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I want the PG to push the ball all game, every game next season. No letting the inbounds pass roll, no Tatum or Smart slow walking it up and just beating the 8 second clock across half court. Matriculate the ball down the court on offense consistently.

And on defense pick, ‘em up at half court. Their defense was OK in Game 7 but I much prefer the aggressive, pick ‘em up at half, court, pressure defense that I saw in games 5 & 6. Creates a lot more errors by the opponent.

Do that on a daily basis and I’m all in on running it back with this group.
Agree with all of that. I'd add the regular season has become a glorified pre-season in some ways.
1. Use more of the rotation & roster. Long season, with fewer minutes for Al/TL/Marcus.
2. Make Derrick White the starting PG, end-of-the-game staple. I want the ball in his hands making decisions & dictating play more.
3. Come up with a half dozen different ISO or 2-man plays at the end of Quarters other than Tatum milks clock/step back 3.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I wrote about it a little more in depth in the offseason thread, but I find the hardest things in life to get over are those that I cant find a rationale explanation for...and the more I look at the numbers the more I think there is no rationale explanation for Martin's run these playoffs outside 'he got hot.' TLDR: Im not sure Ill get over it either.
Sure, Martin caught fire in the biggest game of the year but why do Celtics fans call that a "fluke" coming from a guy shooting 38% threes during his two years in Miami....yet scream for more Derrick White playing time when he goes off despite him being a 35% shooter of threes during this same time span?

It wasn't like Charlotte let him go last week, it was two years ago....he's been a solid player since getting an opportunity with the Heat and very good 3-pt shooter since he's been in Miami. It speaks much greater of the Hornets evaluation process than a 38% shooter turning it up to 44% and one fire game in the postseason.
 

jezza1918

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Sure, Martin caught fire in the biggest game of the year but why do Celtics fans call that a "fluke" coming from a guy shooting 38% threes during his two years in Miami....yet scream for more Derrick White playing time when he goes off despite him being a 35% shooter of threes during this same time span?

It wasn't like Charlotte let him go last week, it was two years ago....he's been a solid player since getting an opportunity with the Heat and very good 3-pt shooter since he's been in Miami. It speaks much greater of the Hornets evaluation process than a 38% shooter turning it up to 44% and one fire game in the postseason.
I wasnt just talking about one game or the 3 point shooting, here's the post in it's entirety for reference - http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/the-celtics-offseason.39525/post-5589042 I dont think it's so much a fluke as it is getting hot at the right time. To many, those two things might be the same, but for me they are distant relatives.
 

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I think they need to run more plays where Brown is supposed to be the finisher and fewer where he starts with the ball. They run a lot of plays where a shooter comes around a pick, gets the ball, and shoots. Brown could do that.

I also think he needs to rely more on his mid range game when he is driving. If he focuses more on creating good midrange shots for himself when he drives, that will minimize his tunrovers and failed plays where he drives and gets swalowed up by a collapsing defense. I think he seemed to be starting to get this around the time when Tatum broke his face but I don't think he ever really got it together after that.

Maybe Cassell, with all of his NBA experience playing in a very different league with a much higher view of the value of midrange shots, can help with that.
This is good.

Brown is a different guy in transition, secondary transition, and when he catches the ball on the move and attacks. Like unstoppable different. Him creating off the dribble is not playing to his strengths, not when it's against smart defenses. He needs to use the middle level more. As you note, he has that in his bag, but he kinda stopped pulling out that club.
 

lexrageorge

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Jul 31, 2007
18,841
Sure, Martin caught fire in the biggest game of the year but why do Celtics fans call that a "fluke" coming from a guy shooting 38% threes during his two years in Miami....yet scream for more Derrick White playing time when he goes off despite him being a 35% shooter of threes during this same time span?

It wasn't like Charlotte let him go last week, it was two years ago....he's been a solid player since getting an opportunity with the Heat and very good 3-pt shooter since he's been in Miami. It speaks much greater of the Hornets evaluation process than a 38% shooter turning it up to 44% and one fire game in the postseason.
Martin did indeed get hot at the right time. But regarding the comparative 3-pt FG% of White and Martin, White was actually better in 2022-23: 38.1% in 4.8 attempts per game vs 35.6% in 3.3. And they both were close in overall minutes per game (with White appearing in more games).

I actually think White's playing time has been fine. I do think fans are correct for screaming for him being on the court and not on the bench at crunch time, because that's where he belongs.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
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Nov 2, 2007
21,159
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scream for more Derrick White playing time when he goes off despite him being a 35% shooter of threes during this same time span?
I don't get your season-long pushback on White's improvement from 3 even though he claimed to work on it all last Summer with Ben Sullivan. DW had by far his best 3pt shooting season (38%) and eFG%. Heck, he took it up significantly in 20 playoff games by shooting 45.5% from 3.

Derrick has been a career 86% FT shooter, so 3pt improvement from 35% shouldn't be a complete shocker.

This should align with your "Easiest Skill to Learn" theory.

"Variance"? I think not ;)

As far as Derrick White playing more minutes, I'm not sure how anybody can watch a Celtic game this season (he played in all of them) and immediately not recognize his positive impact. It's so blatantly obvious that my 12yr old laughs at his NBA2K rating of 80.

If DW's 2500 minutes (or 10,000 career minutes) of +/- or On/Off doesn't do it for you feel free to go to DRtg or ORtg, Win Share, VORP, BPM, DARKO, CARMELO, LEBRON, RAPTOR, EPM, DPM. You can check on his Advanced %, Asst, TO, Blk over this year or his career.

Casual fans and NBA2K love themselves some POINTZ and pretty much ignore defense. Derrick White confuses them.

https://hardwoodhoudini.com/2023/04/27/derrick-white-third-boston-celtics/
 
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Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
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Apr 12, 2005
42,433
Yes. Smart, who shot 36% from three in the playoffs and 36% from three against the Heat was the problem. It wasn’t that Tatum shot 23% against the Heat, Brogdon shot 17%, Brown shot 16%, and Horford shot 28%. Nope, it was one of three guys who actually made his threes (along with White and Grant) who broke the offense.
I realize I kind of talked about that Heat series in that post, but really, I was trying to make the point and respond to the entire season on the whole.

That said, if we want to dive into the Miami series, Marcus shot 35.7% from 3 against the Heat, which is fine in a vaccuum, but almost all of Marcus' 3's are wide open, and he's taking 6 a game. You can live with that, but what you can't live with is a point guard that can't distribute when you have multiple 25+ ppg scorers on the court with them. Marcus had 10 assists in the 1st half of game 1 against Miami. Over the next 6.5 games, he had a total of 25 assists. He played 107 minutes over the course of the last 3 games, and had a total of 7 assists and 8 turnovers.

From games 2-7 of the Miami series, Marcus averaged 4.0 assists per game. Jaylen Brown, the guy we all agree is not a good playmaker and shouldn't be asked to distribute, averaged 3.2 assists per game. Those numbers simply do not work, and IMO, is another point of reference that Marcus is not a good fit, especially when you account for the fact that he's clearly diminished on the defensive end from where he was before.

Putting aside Smart or individual players for the moment, the first thing I wrote in my post was "coaching." I know Joe is coming back, and I know Joe wants to rely on the 3, but there needs to be a plan when the 3's aren't falling. You need to take the easy buckets when they are there. We can make fun of the messenger all we want, but this guy is dead, balls on right when it comes to this video. This is absolutely terrible offensive basketball, and shit we did in high school to bust zones:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cC1ihhrz3M
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
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Apr 12, 2005
42,433
Martin did indeed get hot at the right time. But regarding the comparative 3-pt FG% of White and Martin, White was actually better in 2022-23: 38.1% in 4.8 attempts per game vs 35.6% in 3.3. And they both were close in overall minutes per game (with White appearing in more games).

I actually think White's playing time has been fine. I do think fans are correct for screaming for him being on the court and not on the bench at crunch time, because that's where he belongs.
Caleb Martin getting hot from 3 bothered me way less than Caleb Martin hitting mid range jumpers like Durant, and finishing around the rim like Jordan bothered me.
 

TripleOT

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Jul 4, 2007
8,198
Exasperated Ex-Coach is correct. I’m not a baseball metrics expert, but I believe there’s a thing where a team like the Red Sox go into a season saying they need to hit X amount of home runs to get X amount of wins. I don’t think they would ever play a Game 7 with the philosophy that they need to hit a certain number of home runs.


Having a heavy catch and kick three point attack is fine over a long regular season, but when you’re building a brick house in a closeout playoff game, cutting to the basket a few times against a zone where three defenders are 20+ feet from the rim, and your tallest player just caught the ball behind them at the FT line, should be a no brainer.
 

Leon Trotsky

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Jul 18, 2005
2,849
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Exasperated Ex-Coach is correct. I’m not a baseball metrics expert, but I believe there’s a thing where a team like the Red Sox go into a season saying they need to hit X amount of home runs to get X amount of wins. I don’t think they would ever play a Game 7 with the philosophy that they need to hit a certain number of home runs.


Having a heavy catch and kick three point attack is fine over a long regular season, but when you’re building a brick house in a closeout playoff game, cutting to the basket a few times against a zone where three defenders are 20+ feet from the rim, and your tallest player just caught the ball behind them at the FT line, should be a no brainer.
This seems to me to be what more time working on the system would do. Over the last couple seasons they have worked on whoever has the ball making a decision in max half second decision to drive pass or shoot - they need to do the same thing with the guys without the ball. It takes crazy amounts of skill and practice though, cause those guys without the ball are supposed to be in locations that the guys with the ball can make those split second decisions as needed. Getting better on the cuts seems like the next stage.
 

Just a bit outside

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Sure, Martin caught fire in the biggest game of the year but why do Celtics fans call that a "fluke" coming from a guy shooting 38% threes during his two years in Miami....yet scream for more Derrick White playing time when he goes off despite him being a 35% shooter of threes during this same time span?

It wasn't like Charlotte let him go last week, it was two years ago....he's been a solid player since getting an opportunity with the Heat and very good 3-pt shooter since he's been in Miami. It speaks much greater of the Hornets evaluation process than a 38% shooter turning it up to 44% and one fire game in the postseason.
He has been a decent shooter on low volume. Martin made 3 plus 3 pointers 14 times this year. 5 of those were in the series against the Celtics. Martin had the series of his life. There are players littered through post seasons in various sports who caught fire and turned a playoff series and led their team to victory. It happens and it sucks that it happened to the Celtics. Anyone who says they saw it coming is delusional or lying.
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
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Apr 12, 2005
42,433
No, that guy is an idiot. So many of his screaming rants resulted in wide open looks from three for Boston.
That completely misses the point on breaking the zone. That wide open 3 is going to be there even if one of the corner guys cuts the baseline. The other wing just relocates into that spot.

How many of those plays on that 6:00 minute reel ended up in wide open 3's, and how many did they make?

If someone cuts, how many of those plays would have resulted in an easy two?

He's right, and every other offense in the league destroys zones and mismatches in ways the C's do not, because it's basic as shit.
 

the moops

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Jan 19, 2016
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That completely misses the point on breaking the zone. That wide open 3 is going to be there even if one of the corner guys cuts the baseline. The other wing just relocates into that spot.

How many of those plays on that 6:00 minute reel ended up in wide open 3's, and how many did they make?

If someone cuts, how many of those plays would have resulted in an easy two?

He's right, and every other offense in the league destroys zones and mismatches in ways the C's do not, because it's basic as shit.
Didn’t Boston score 1.4 points per possession against the zone?
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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He has been a decent shooter on low volume. Martin made 3 plus 3 pointers 14 times this year. 5 of those were in the series against the Celtics. Martin had the series of his life. There are players littered through post seasons in various sports who caught fire and turned a playoff series and led their team to victory. It happens and it sucks that it happened to the Celtics. Anyone who says they saw it coming is delusional or lying.
Agreed that nobody saw this level of play in the playoffs coming but those referring to Martin as a "scrub" who is just lucky or cite his draft status as if it means anything now aren't looking at his production rates over the past few years.

The guy is capable of playing this way - maybe not sustainably across a whole season - but certainly in games as well as series.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Apr 12, 2005
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Didn’t Boston score 1.4 points per possession against the zone?
Maybe, for a half, or maybe one game? They finished the series at .76 points per possession against the zone. See below. Now, one might ask "why don't more teams employ zones?"

Why, because they are easy as shit to break for normal NBA players with good coaching. It doesn't require hoping you shoot 3's at 40% either.


For the series total, the Celtics’ half-court offense was far less efficient against the zone (0.76 points per possession) than it was against man-to-man (1.05), according to Synergy.

Five years ago (2017-18), no team played more than 223 possessions of zone over the course of the regular season. This season, the Heat played 1,453 possessions, the most for any team in 17 years of Synergy tracking. They’ve already 211 possessions in the playoffs, 144 more than any other team.

And now, zone defense has them in The Finals.

https://www.nba.com/news/5-takeaways-from-heats-game-7-victory-over-celtics
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
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Jan 15, 2004
31,330
He has been a decent shooter on low volume. Martin made 3 plus 3 pointers 14 times this year. 5 of those were in the series against the Celtics. Martin had the series of his life. There are players littered through post seasons in various sports who caught fire and turned a playoff series and led their team to victory. It happens and it sucks that it happened to the Celtics. Anyone who says they saw it coming is delusional or lying.
It was "low volume" bc Herro was in the lineup and Martin's minutes were limited.
I mean it's been discussed in the wagering thread all postseason. Granted it is an extreme for sure but these are a far different quality of shot with Jimmy creating inside/out catch and shoots than the non-rhythm threes they were taking all year when they "ran their stuff." It's been implied all postseason that Caleb Martin is some non-shooting stiff who got cut by the Hornets last month when I actually he's been a real good shooter for his two years in Miami.
 

Jimbodandy

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I don't get your season-long pushback on White's improvement from 3 even though he claimed to work on it all last Summer with Ben Sullivan. DW had by far his best 3pt shooting season (38%) and eFG%. Heck, he took it up significantly in 20 playoff games by shooting 45.5% from 3.

Derrick has been a career 86% FT shooter, so 3pt improvement from 35% shouldn't be a complete shocker.

This should align with your "Easiest Skill to Learn" theory.

"Variance"? I think not ;)

As far as Derrick White playing more minutes, I'm not sure how anybody can watch a Celtic game this season (he played in all of them) and immediately not recognize his positive impact. It's so blatantly obvious that my 12yr old laughs at his NBA2K rating of 80.

If DW's 2500 minutes (or 10,000 career minutes) of +/- or On/Off doesn't do it for you feel free to go to DRtg or ORtg, Win Share, VORP, BPM, DARKO, CARMELO, LEBRON, RAPTOR, EPM, DPM. You can check on his Advanced %, Asst, TO, Blk over this year or his career.

Casual fans and NBA2K love themselves some POINTZ and pretty much ignore defense. Derrick White confuses them.

https://hardwoodhoudini.com/2023/04/27/derrick-white-third-boston-celtics/
Not germane to Jaylen Brown, but if your 12yo is laughing at Derrick White's low 2K rating, you're doing something right.
 

the moops

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Jan 19, 2016
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Why, because they are easy as shit to break for normal NBA players with good coaching. It doesn't require hoping you shoot 3's at 40% either.
I can't watch more than half of that video because that dude has no idea what he is talking about. I can't believe you think he is spot on. He isn't.

His first 5 instances of "Boston not knowing what they are doing because Mazzulla is an idiot" resulted in 4 good looks (three wide open corner threes, and one layup by Tatum), and one bad pass by Horford. NBA teams would kill to get those 5 looks on those 5 possessions.

Good look at basket for Tatum - missed layup. Had Smart open if he passed
Entry pass to Horford, kicks to wide open corner three for Jaylen
Entry pass to horgord, kicks to wide open corner three for Samrt
Entry pass to Horford, Tatum cuts, bad pass by Horford
Horford beats his man, kicks to Jaylen for wide open corner three