Jaylen Brown, Year 7

Deathofthebambino

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I came in after seeing @RorschachsMask stats mostly disprove your last paragraph but I had the exact same feeling. It feels to me like his passing has got better, much more natural and in the flow of the game recently. It still can look kind of clunky but it’s less than it was before. This will be interesting to track because I think that he could be having a minor breakthrough
I think it's always going to look a bit clunky, because Jaylen is a professional scorer. He's always looking first to put the ball in the hoop and then looking to pass when it isn't there, as opposed to say a guy who goes 50/50 a la Doncic or Lebron. It's what he is and what he will likely always be. George Gervin had more turnovers in his career than assists. Paul George averages 3.7apg and 2.7topg for his career, Derozen is a 4.0/2.1 guy, Donovan Mitchell 4.5/2.8. Jaylen over the past 3 seasons is at 3.4/2.8, so he can certainly add an assist or two and reduce the turnovers by .5 or whatever. The assist numbers have been trending up.

Jaylen is always going to be more of a Bradley Beal than he's going to be a James Harden. And that's just fine. I think folks want him to be more than that, but that level is pretty damn high.
 

RorschachsMask

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I think Jaylen is more than good enough when it comes to A/B reads, it’s a matter of him making the right pass, versus trying to force something.

If it’s him hitting a roll man, or kicking the the corner on a drive, he’s fine. But you give him the ball at the top of the key and ask him to create? That’s going to lead to stagnant offense, and it’s part of the reason I think his efficiency has struggled the last few months. Of the top 25 scorers in the league, only Siakam, Ant, Randle, Klay, and Morant have a lower TS for the season. I think that’s as much about roles as it is Jaylen, he’s being asked to do stuff that we went out and got White/Brogdon for lol.

My personal hope is down the stretch, that they ramp up his off ball reps, because that’s absolutely the best version of both himself, and the offense. Whether it’s large sample noise or not, our record is much, much better when Jaylen has a bit lower of usage. To me, it’s not about pointing out what Jaylen can’t do, it’s all about maximizing what he can do, as we are playing for a title.
 
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djbayko

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I'm gonna come right out and say that, while Jaylen has given me the willies in past years, I've gained a ton of confidence in him this season. Sure, he still loses the ball once in a while, but he's a hell of a lot more sure-handed than he used to be. I no longer cringe every time I see him driving into the paint (thinking that it's a coin flip whether it will result in a turnover or not). The one thing I do wish for is that he'd be more consistent at the free throw line in clutch situations.
 

Auger34

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His response about Celtics fans is 100% right, it’s just that that’s literally ever fanbase in sports. There is no fanbase ever that doesn’t have a toxic subset.

The refusal to just outright say I completely disagree with Kanye’s stance on Jewish people is mind boggling
 

kfoss99

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The refusal to just outright say I completely disagree with Kanye’s stance on Jewish people is mind boggling
I'd like to be generous to Brown and think he just doesn't want to speak ill of a friend and mentor and fellow Black man. There's a way for him to say he isn't antisemitic without degrading the work he and Kanye did together. That he hasn't done that, after a few opportunities, is really discouraging.

Just root for the laundry, right?
 

RorschachsMask

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Edit: Wrong thread.

As far as Jaylen’s comments, c’mon man. I just have a hard time shaking when he liked a tweet about “knowing whose secretly in charge of everything” back during the Kyrie mess.
 
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DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I assume most of the people I root for in sports have evolving views. Its only fair to younger people who simply don't have the perspective that time and experience gives you.

That said, I also assume that many of these folks hold views I might find odious because its a population sample.

The good thing is that most athletes know enough not to share just because they have a platform. Jaylen has decided to go the opposite way and while he isn't outright being awful he is openly flirting with it. Its disappointing and I will keep compartmentalizing until/unless he either decides to go full 'Ye or maybe he changes his views. I am not holding my breath for that outcome.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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It’s my fault that I am bothered by the fact that he has repeatedly ignored, apologized for, and endorsed antisemitism?
As a reminder, JB did make this statement:
"I have always and will always continue to stand strongly against any antisemitism, hate speech, misrepresentation, and oppressive rhetoric of any kind," Brown said in a statement posted on social media.
"In light of that, after sharing conversations, I now recognize there are times when my voice and my position can't coexist in spaces that don't correspond with my stance or values."

View: https://twitter.com/FCHWPO/status/1585036696667951107?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1585036696667951107%7Ctwgr%5E6cdbc3eb78775cf5cba77dc5d5b1f963439565b4%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbsnews.com%2Fboston%2Fnews%2Fjaylen-brown-kanye-west-donda-sports-antisemitism%2F
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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The dude just doesn't want to talk about Kanye anymore. He also made a pretty solid public statement (posted above).

Every time some interviewer wants some click baity Kanye or Kyrie shit, he has to give the "antisemitism is bad" speech?

He said he was only associated with Kanye for public education/athletes self-marketing. He then refused to waste time talking about Kanye.

What a real piece of shit.
 

JakeRae

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The dude just doesn't want to talk about Kanye anymore. He also made a pretty solid public statement (posted above).

Every time some interviewer wants some click baity Kanye or Kyrie shit, he has to give the "antisemitism is bad" speech?

He said he was only associated with Kanye for public education/athletes self-marketing. He then refused to waste time talking about Kanye.

What a real piece of shit.
There’s nothing wrong with his not wanting to continue to discuss Kanye, although his approach there is less than ideal. On the other hand, his answer about his endorsement/support of the Black Hebrew Israelites is what prompted my post.

You got in a little bit of hot water in November for sharing a video of the Black Hebrew Israelites [an antisemitic group] outside of Barclays Center in support of Kyrie Irving. You said that you thought it was a fraternity. Did that incident make you rethink how you want to use your platform?

At that time, being the vice president of the players association, Kyrie Irving was being exiled, so I thought it was important to use my platform to to show him some love when he was being welcomed back. And people took it with their own perspective and ran with it. That’s out of my control. I’ve always used my platform to talk about certain things, and I will continue to. But the more you make people uncomfortable, the more criticism you’re going to get. And that’s just life.
It is not a “perspective” that he posted support for antisemites rallying in support of Kyrie’s antisemitism. And it is not ok to treat criticism of that as grounded in “discomfort.” That’s an approach that works when you are on the right side of a social cause. When racists or anti-trans people or whoever are made uncomfortable by taking the side of supporting the right of individuals to exist fully and equally in our society, you get to shrug off criticism in the way Jaylen is doing here. When you are on the side that is promoting hate, you don’t.

And, this isn’t some click bait piece. It’s a sit down interview. Jaylen has never apologized for, been held to account for, or backed away from his endorsement of antisemitism through the posting of that video (his earlier statement doesn’t cut it when his actions shortly thereafter repeatedly took the side of defending Kyrie’s “right” to be antisemitic and supporting the support he received from a hate group). And he had another chance now and went further and tried to cast the criticism of him as inappropriate or overly sensitive.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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There’s nothing wrong with his not wanting to continue to discuss Kanye, although his approach there is less than ideal. On the other hand, his answer about his endorsement/support of the Black Hebrew Israelites is what prompted my post.



It is not a “perspective” that he posted support for antisemites rallying in support of Kyrie’s antisemitism
. And it is not ok to treat criticism of that as grounded in “discomfort.” That’s an approach that works when you are on the right side of a social cause. When racists or anti-trans people or whoever are made uncomfortable by taking the side of supporting the right of individuals to exist fully and equally in our society, you get to shrug off criticism in the way Jaylen is doing here. When you are on the side that is promoting hate, you don’t.

And, this isn’t some click bait piece. It’s a sit down interview. Jaylen has never apologized for, been held to account for, or backed away from his endorsement of antisemitism through the posting of that video (his earlier statement doesn’t cut it when his actions shortly thereafter repeatedly took the side of defending Kyrie’s “right” to be antisemitic and supporting the support he received from a hate group). And he had another chance now and went further and tried to cast the criticism of him as inappropriate or overly sensitive.
He explicitly said that he wasn't supporting the Black Hebrew Israelites, that he thought it was the colors of a black fraternity, and that he was simply using his platform to welcome back Kyrie Irving to the basketball court. He then states that people colored his post with their own perspective - anti-vaccine, anti-semitic, anti-white, whatever - and spun it to their own agenda. Which, even during this conversation, still feels true.

He also didn't say he was trying to make people uncomfortable with his anti-Semitic take. Simply that he makes people uncomfortable with his takes, and that will lead to more criticism. He never said he supported the Black Hebrew Israelites or their views.
 

RorschachsMask

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When asked whether he wants to stay in Boston long term, Brown is noncommittal.

“I don’t know. As long as I’m needed. It’s not up to me,” he says. “We’ll see how they feel about me over time and I feel about them over time. Hopefully, whatever it is, it makes sense. But I will stay where I’m wanted. I will stay where I’m needed and treated correct.”
“Obviously, our goal is to win the championship. That’s, I think, what everybody is focused on,” Brown tells me. “Me, I feel like I still have so many more limits to tap individually. To be better, to be a better leader, to be a better player, et cetera. As for now, I’m just playing my role on the team to help us get back to do what we got to do. So, nothing wrong with being a part of a team and doing your job. That’s how I look at it.”

Brown says, “Once we all got together and kind of talked it through, we all left on the same page. But the actions that was taking place during that time, it just didn’t seem like that was the direction that the organization was going in. I don’t know. It was hard to tell, at least.”

For as long as Brown has been with the Celtics, he’s been involved in trade rumors. Last month, when Durant again requested a trade, Celtics owner Wyc Grousbeck called Brown to squelch any worry Brown might’ve had. The nearly endless cycle has left some scars. Brown generally doesn’t trust easily, and that now extends to his relationship with the Celtics.

“It’s hard coming into teams and organizations and being warm. They operate on different principles, I think. This is an organization. They look at it as a business, where they’ll tell you one thing, and then behind closed doors, they’ll say another, and they’ll trade you off,” he says. “Tell you, ‘We love you,’ and they’ll be having like, ‘We’re going to trade him next week.’ I think that’s just how business is run.
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2023/3/21/23639331/jaylen-brown-nba-boston-celtics
 

Cellar-Door

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Sounds like a no to me.
sounds like:
Depends if I get the super-max extension.

But yeah... after this year they need to start thinking about whether they need to move Jaylen for value. Nothing about what he says or does off the court says anything other than "I want to be THE GUY for someone else to build my brand, I want a Ruffles bag too"
 

HomeRunBaker

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Sounds like a no to me.
Sounds like he now understands the business side of this game. Every player should take the position Brown did with those words. If he’s extended max then he stays, if not he’ll find someone else will to pay him as much as they can per the CBA.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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sounds like:
Depends if I get the super-max extension.

But yeah... after this year they need to start thinking about whether they need to move Jaylen for value. Nothing about what he says or does off the court says anything other than "I want to be THE GUY for someone else to build my brand, I want a Ruffles bag too"
If he "qualifies?) gets offered the super-max, he will take it. It will also jive with his role in the union...get that bag.
 

The Social Chair

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Good for him for having completely irrational confidence. His ceiling is #2 guy on a deep team, and he'd be in the lottery every year as the best player on a team.

I think a) Jaylen believes he would make more money off the court on a different team and out of Tatum's shadow, and b) he wants to feel like he is choosing his own path forward and not at the mercy of an NBA team. The problem on the former is that kids don't think he's cool. He can't fix the fact he has no charisma.
 

lexrageorge

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Reading the full article, a couple of things are clear. First, given his position in the NBAPA, Brown absolutely has to play this situation by the union playbook. Especially as the league and union are trying to wrap up the negotiations on a new CBA by their self-imposed 3/31 deadline. So there is zero chance that Brown is going to say anything that makes team ownership comfortable. Nor is he going to say anything publicly that will hurt his own leverage with the team. Any interpretation of his comments has to take these factors into account. How he feels privately about the trade talks and Wyc's and Brad's promises to him are still an unknown; don't expect JB to tell us either.

If he qualifies for the supermax, I see no reason he would refuse it if offered. If he doesn't qualify, the team's leverage is lessened, but he would get another bite at the All-NBA apple next season, and the Celtics would still be in position to offer him more than any other team either way.
 

Auger34

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sounds like:
Depends if I get the super-max extension.

But yeah... after this year they need to start thinking about whether they need to move Jaylen for value. Nothing about what he says or does off the court says anything other than "I want to be THE GUY for someone else to build my brand, I want a Ruffles bag too"
Im curious, what do you base this “the guy” stuff on? You’ve posted a few things like this on here and I really don’t get where you’re coming from with these takes.

If you want to be THE GUY and on a Ruffles bag wouldn’t you sign with a shoe company like Nike to raise your profile? Wouldn’t you also NOT lean into social issues? I mean Jordan is the definition of a “brand” and his whole credo was “Republicans buy shoes too”.

It’s honestly a weird criticism and it’s especially weird to base a decision on retaining a player from something that’s not exactly sound logic.


I read the article and with regards to the contract @lexrageorge nailed it. I thought his comments on Durant and Tatum were interesting and showed a very human side. If it were me and all of those rumors were swirling and my teammate did what Tatum did I would 100% be pissed off about it (especially since Tatum seems sensitive/knowledgeable about that type of stuff).
The only portion that I really didn’t like was the Kyrie stuff. I understand his view on the CBA and how what the Nets did wasn’t allowed within the agreement (especially since he’s high up in the Union). However, his whole spiel about Kyrienbeing who he is and how he’s never afraid is complete bullshit. Who Kyrie is changes every year (along with what religion he’s “devoutly” following) and hes deathly afraid of apologizing or looking stupid. That’s what landed him in all of this nonsense in the first place.

@The Social Chair; completely irrational confidence is pretty harsh for a guy who’s in the competition for All NBA. This isn’t Grant Williams thinking he should be a primary option or make more than $20M a year. I don’t know how successful JB would be as “the guy” and my guess would be not very but it’s not some complete pie in the sky idea like you make it out to be. And as for the kids not thinking he’s cool, I have no fucking idea and don’t really care..but I do think he has natural charisma. Who knows if that leads to endorsements or the kids thinking he’s cool
 

Deathofthebambino

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@The Social Chair; completely irrational confidence is pretty harsh for a guy who’s in the competition for All NBA. This isn’t Grant Williams thinking he should be a primary option or make more than $20M a year. I don’t know how successful JB would be as “the guy” and my guess would be not very but it’s not some complete pie in the sky idea like you make it out to be. And as for the kids not thinking he’s cool, I have no fucking idea and don’t really care..but I do think he has natural charisma. Who knows if that leads to endorsements or the kids thinking he’s cool
Jimmy Butler, age 24-26 seasons (.442/.321/.816) 5.4rpg, 3.6apg, 1.8spg, 18.0ppg, 1.6topg, TS% was .522/.583/.562. He's now made 4 all NBA teams, and 6 all star games.

Jaylen Brown, age 24-26 seasons (.483/.364/.765), 6.3rpg, 3.4apg, 1.0spg, 25.0ppg, 2.8topg, TS% was/is .586/.574/.585.

Jaylen put up those numbers in 34.7 minutes per game, while Jimmy had to play 38.1mpg during that stretch.

The idea that Jaylen Brown can't be the Man on a team, if surrounded by the right complimentary pieces is just weird. Same can be said for virtually everyone. If Steph Curry doesn't have Draymond and Klay, he ain't winning 4 titles. Tatum's the man, what's he won? Embiid? Jokic? Giannis played 8 seasons as a star on an ok team, and won exactly nothing until they went and replaced Bledsoe with Jrue Holiday.

Also, whetherJaylen Brown remains a Boston Celtic will have nothing to do with money. He's getting a max deal no matter what, the only question is whether or not it's a supermax (which the Celtics don't control). If the Celtics try to pay him a dollar less than max, which I doubt they would, he should tell them to go fucking pound sand, because every team in the NBA that can afford to pay him will offer it.
 

Kliq

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People have become, very, very strange when it comes to Jaylen. Part of it is the Kyrie/Kanye adjacency, part of it is the team has struggled over the last month, part of it might be an impact from all the "Can the Celtics win with both Js?" sports radio talking points.

I've never gotten the impression Brown is pining to leave Boston, or that he has an ego problem, or that he wants to be the alpha dog on the team and is made Tatum is in that role.
 

benhogan

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I'm starting to get the feeling that it's Super Max or bust this summer.

I suspect the Celtics, Brown, & everyone around here would be happy with All-NBA/Super Max deal this summer.

BUT if he doesn't get 2023 All-NBA he may feel slighted and it will set up a year of Boston media asking him about his contract every time he doesn't get POINTZ. We all know what a shitshow that can be for the player, HC, teammates, & front office.

This isn't Browns' fault and it's not Wyc/Brad's fault. Just the structure of the CBA. Brad will have no choice but to see if Jaylen wants to be the #1 elsewhere or be in another city.
AND to canvas the league on trade interest even if he says he's happy in Boston as the #2 option.
 

Cellar-Door

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Im curious, what do you base this “the guy” stuff on? You’ve posted a few things like this on here and I really don’t get where you’re coming from with these takes.

If you want to be THE GUY and on a Ruffles bag wouldn’t you sign with a shoe company like Nike to raise your profile? Wouldn’t you also NOT lean into social issues? I mean Jordan is the definition of a “brand” and his whole credo was “Republicans buy shoes too”.

It’s honestly a weird criticism and it’s especially weird to base a decision on retaining a player from something that’s not exactly sound logic.
There has been a lot of chatter that he isn't thrilled about being seen as the number 2 over the last year or two from people who have good NBA insight. Nothing official and nothing sourced, but it's been out there a while. And he did a couple interviews in the last week talking about how difficult it's been to build his brand and companies. The Ruffles thing was a joke because Tatum is on the bag., but even the shoe thing, he's been a shoe FA because he wants them to invest in him and his brand and his projects, and they haven't, they simply don't see him as a guy who is at a level that he can dictate that (LeBron can for example). It's literally in that story from the Ringer. There is more to "building a brand" and "being the guy" than money and getting endorsements.

And that's fine, I don't subscribe to the "he'll never be a #1, he's delusional, he doesn't want to win" stuff.
I think he wants to win. I do think that he's been frustrated off the court by how he's struggled to get his stuff off the ground. It's honestly part of the whole Kanye thing... his people told him "Kanye isn't a stable business partner", but Kanye was a guy with money and power who was telling him how he'd let him get his priorities going, would let him get a big role in education, promote all his social work, get 7uice a bigger profile. And he has been frustrated with the other avenues, so he hopped in bed with him.

My point wasn't that Jaylen is somehow in the wrong for wanting to be the guy... most athletes do, especially if they're close enough. Bradley Beal is "The guy" and Jaylen is better than him. And being "the guy" has a lot of impact beyond on-court. It gets you profile, you get to be first in line for your market when people want the reflected glow of the NBA, etc. etc. My point was that if he DOES want to be the guy, as many have speculated, and he doesn't qualify for All-NBA this year... then as a business you need to start looking at your options, because Jaylen eventually leaving for nothing is far more damaging than Kyrie was.

Aside from the Kyrie/Kanye mis-steps, I really like Jaylen off the court, I appreciate that he really wants to be involved in social issues, education and community and he wants a big stage for them. I also as a fan of the Celtics recognize that is going to cause some concerns in terms of what he wants come next contract. if he just wanted money, I'd be less concerned, it is actually that he wants the profile for something other than just money that makes his future with the Celtics hard to predict.
 

Auger34

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There has been a lot of chatter that he isn't thrilled about being seen as the number 2 over the last year or two from people who have good NBA insight. Nothing official and nothing sourced, but it's been out there a while. And he did a couple interviews in the last week talking about how difficult it's been to build his brand and companies.
Can you point me to the chatter about how he isn’t thrilled? I’m normally pretty plugged in to that type of rumor and innuendo and I haven’t seen it anywhere

And the brand and company thing is mentioned in that article. The article specifically mentioned that he’s been frustrated that no shoe brands were willing to help him with his off the court activities and help find some of his ideas. I’m not sure that going to a different team is going to help that…in fact, I think that the Boston market and winning would help more than going to Team X to be the guy.

If he can get the Super Max he’s 100% staying here. If he can’t I’d move the odds down but Boston can still offer him the max and I’m not convinced he’s definitely going to leave
 

Auger34

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This isn't Browns' fault and it's not Wyc/Brad's fault. Just the structure of the CBA. Brad will have no choice but to see if Jaylen wants to be the #1 elsewhere or be in another city.
AND to canvas the league on trade interest even if he says he's happy in Boston as the #2 option.
From reading that article, I got the sense that while he’s definitely not completely at fault or completely wrong that Brad didn’t handle the KD stuff as well as he could have. It shouldn’t be up to the player to set up a call to determine what’s going on. Brad should have made that call up front.

And I know that the main board is loathe to ever say an ill word about the chosen one Tatum but that was a shitty move on his part to broadcast that workout with Durant when he did. He can workout with whoever but to post pictures of it all over social media at that particular time is not what a good teammate/team leader would do.

EDIT: Wrong on my Tatum as a leader comment as Rorschach points out below
 
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Cellar-Door

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Can you point me to the chatter about how he isn’t thrilled? I’m normally pretty plugged in to that type of rumor and innuendo and I haven’t seen it anywhere

And the brand and company thing is mentioned in that article. The article specifically mentioned that he’s been frustrated that no shoe brands were willing to help him with his off the court activities and help find some of his ideas. I’m not sure that going to a different team is going to help that…in fact, I think that the Boston market and winning would help more than going to Team X to be the guy.

If he can get the Super Max he’s 100% staying here. If he can’t I’d move the odds down but Boston can still offer him the max and I’m not convinced he’s definitely going to leave
off the top of my head, I know Lowe mentioned it on a pod a while back, Matt Moore has referred to it, couple others, all just in the context of "keep an eye on this down the road" it came up the most around the time of the Durant talks.

I agree, if he gets the super-max he'll stay (at least a while)

I definitely don't think you're right that being the #2 on a team that wins is more valuable than being a #1. I look to guys like Dame, Mitchell (in Utah particularly), Trae... there is value in being the face of a franchise even if you never win anything. Now being a star AND having an aesthetic game is probably the biggest, but being in your own market helps, it also lets you put up bigger numbers which helps as well.
 

RorschachsMask

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I do think there’s something to the fact that Tatum is literally never mentioned as being a leader on the team despite the fact he’s the best player. It’s always Smart and Brown who get the shout outs
While I’d agree that those pictures weren’t the best optics, the following just isn’t true lol. If you google either Tatum or Jaylen’s name with leadership, you’ll get pretty much the exact same search results.


“People probably don’t know this much but he was very vocal during the playoffs, right from the beginning,” Horford said. “Staying on us, challenging our group, and giving us certain things that he felt like we needed to do, and things like that.

“He took a huge step in my eyes. And I feel like that confidence is kind of gonna carry over this year and we’re gonna continue to see more of that from him.”

Two days later, Derrick White, who first played alongside Tatum for Team USA in 2019, said of the latter's maturation as a leader, "it's grown a lot from when I was with him at (Team) USA to last year and then, obviously, this training camp. He does a lot of talking, pulling guys to the side, seeing how we can get the best look in whatever it might be, so we definitely see that maturity and the growth."
 

Auger34

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While I’d agree that those pictures weren’t the best optics, the following just isn’t true lol. If you google either Tatum or Jaylen’s name with leadership, you’ll get pretty much the exact same search results.
I stand corrected! I still maintain that the pictures were a little more than just bad optics. That was a shitty maneuver that wasn’t needed and added more fuel to a fire that was hurting a teammate. You would think that in the age we live in that Tatum would have recognized that and not posted the picture.

I think the fact that Brown felt compelled to call him about it (and admit that he did that) says a lot. These guys are all wired way different than we are but at a basic human level I can understand feeling betrayed
 

RorschachsMask

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I stand corrected! I still maintain that the pictures were a little more than just bad optics. That was a shitty maneuver that wasn’t needed and added more fuel to a fire that was hurting a teammate. You would think that in the age we live in that Tatum would have recognized that and not posted the picture.

I think the fact that Brown felt compelled to call him about it (and admit that he did that) says a lot. These guys are all wired way different than we are but at a basic human level I can understand feeling betrayed
People always lose sight of these guys being human. Even when guys are slumping, it’s not about their play. It’s “soft” or “playing stupid” type of stuff, and these dudes all see these comments. We are all guilty of it at points, but some people go way too far with it.

The quote from that article that I thought was the most worrisome is Jaylen basically saying he doesn’t trust the Celtics, and at least implied he doesn’t completely believe what they said about the KD stuff.

Brown says, “Once we all got together and kind of talked it through, we all left on the same page. But the actions that was taking place during that time, it just didn’t seem like that was the direction that the organization was going in. I don’t know. It was hard to tell, at least.”

For as long as Brown has been with the Celtics, he’s been involved in trade rumors. Last month, when Durant again requested a trade, Celtics owner Wyc Grousbeck called Brown to squelch any worry Brown might’ve had. The nearly endless cycle has left some scars. Brown generally doesn’t trust easily, and that now extends to his relationship with the Celtics.

“It’s hard coming into teams and organizations and being warm. They operate on different principles, I think. This is an organization. They look at it as a business, where they’ll tell you one thing, and then behind closed doors, they’ll say another, and they’ll trade you off,” he says. “Tell you, ‘We love you,’ and they’ll be having like, ‘We’re going to trade him next week.’ I think that’s just how business is run.
 

RorschachsMask

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"I think that's just how business is run" equals "I don't trust the Celtics" somehow.
But the actions that was taking place during that time, it just didn’t seem like that was the direction that the organization was going in. I don’t know. It was hard to tell, at least.”

Brown generally doesn’t trust easily, and that now extends to his relationship with the Celtics.

“It’s hard coming into teams and organizations and being warm. They operate on different principles, I think. This is an organization. They look at it as a business, where they’ll tell you one thing, and then behind closed doors, they’ll say another, and they’ll trade you off,” he says. “Tell you, ‘We love you,’ and they’ll be having like, ‘We’re going to trade him next week.’
If he thinks that’s how the only organization that he’s been a part of runs business, isn’t that not trusting them?
 

bakahump

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I have been critical of JB even as the stats have shown otherwise. I think part of that is "the Chatter" that he wants to be the man.
I wouldnt trust a team where JB is the best player. I just wouldnt. I think he is an AWESOME "Robin". Truly sensational. My "issue" with JB is that he thinks he is one of the top 20 players in the NBA.....and he isnt. And that when you think you are a top 20 player you do things, like try to take over games that you are kinda ill suited to do, when you shouldnt.
Now I dont know how some of these games would play out different if when,Jaylen is playing well, he looked to pass and help get Tatum going, as opposed to Driving into traffic for potential Highlight reel finishes. But I think they might be better.

None of those things are necessarily bad things about JB. He SHOULD think he is a great player.....Like I am sure someone like Kevin Mchale thought he was a great player.....but Kevin Mchale never thought he should be taking the last shot over Larry Bird. Even on a night when Bird was cold and had 20 and Mchale was on fire and had 35.

Now I am not saying that JT is necessarily on Birds level. Just as I am not saying that JB is on Mchales level. But they as are many Alpha/Beta combos are analogous.
 

lexrageorge

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I have been critical of JB even as the stats have shown otherwise. I think part of that is "the Chatter" that he wants to be the man.
I wouldnt trust a team where JB is the best player. I just wouldnt. I think he is an AWESOME "Robin". Truly sensational. My "issue" with JB is that he thinks he is one of the top 20 players in the NBA.....and he isnt. And that when you think you are a top 20 player you do things, like try to take over games that you are kinda ill suited to do, when you shouldnt.
Now I dont know how some of these games would play out different if when,Jaylen is playing well, he looked to pass and help get Tatum going, as opposed to Driving into traffic for potential Highlight reel finishes. But I think they might be better.

None of those things are necessarily bad things about JB. He SHOULD think he is a great player.....Like I am sure someone like Kevin Mchale thought he was a great player.....but Kevin Mchale never thought he should be taking the last shot over Larry Bird. Even on a night when Bird was cold and had 20 and Mchale was on fire and had 35.

Now I am not saying that JT is necessarily on Birds level. Just as I am not saying that JB is on Mchales level. But they as are many Alpha/Beta combos are analogous.
You can name more than 20 players better than JB7 in the NBA?
 

Kliq

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I have been critical of JB even as the stats have shown otherwise. I think part of that is "the Chatter" that he wants to be the man.
I wouldnt trust a team where JB is the best player. I just wouldnt. I think he is an AWESOME "Robin". Truly sensational. My "issue" with JB is that he thinks he is one of the top 20 players in the NBA.....and he isnt. And that when you think you are a top 20 player you do things, like try to take over games that you are kinda ill suited to do, when you shouldnt.
Now I dont know how some of these games would play out different if when,Jaylen is playing well, he looked to pass and help get Tatum going, as opposed to Driving into traffic for potential Highlight reel finishes. But I think they might be better.

None of those things are necessarily bad things about JB. He SHOULD think he is a great player.....Like I am sure someone like Kevin Mchale thought he was a great player.....but Kevin Mchale never thought he should be taking the last shot over Larry Bird. Even on a night when Bird was cold and had 20 and Mchale was on fire and had 35.

Now I am not saying that JT is necessarily on Birds level. Just as I am not saying that JB is on Mchales level. But they as are many Alpha/Beta combos are analogous.
This feels like a complete projection with little evidence to back it up. Jaylen thinks he is a Top 20 player? That's probably because he is, but also he's probably one of the more selfless players that can claim that kind of status. He thinks he should be taking the last shot, and is mad Tatum is? Man....I don't know about that one. If anything this last month has been a lot of Brown outplaying Tatum, but Brown differing to a cold Tatum towards the end of games.
 

bakahump

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I think so, yes. He is certainly 17+ so there is some debate.

Now does that consider age/contract and stuff like that? No probably not. But I would rather have Jimmy Butler then JB for instance. Or KD for instance (despite the injuries).
 

Auger34

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off the top of my head, I know Lowe mentioned it on a pod a while back, Matt Moore has referred to it, couple others, all just in the context of "keep an eye on this down the road" it came up the most around the time of the Durant talks.

I agree, if he gets the super-max he'll stay (at least a while)

I definitely don't think you're right that being the #2 on a team that wins is more valuable than being a #1. I look to guys like Dame, Mitchell (in Utah particularly), Trae... there is value in being the face of a franchise even if you never win anything. Now being a star AND having an aesthetic game is probably the biggest, but being in your own market helps, it also lets you put up bigger numbers which helps as well.
Lowe recently had Scal on his pod and Scal said that people always jump to false narratives when teams are struggling and said one of them was Brown wanted to leave. Lowe actually cut him off and said “that’s a rumor? I haven’t heard anything like that”. He’s also made the specific point that he respects Brown for having embraced the “Robin” role….I don’t think he’s one of the people saying that Jaylen wants to be the guy.

Matt Moore might but I also don’t think Matt Moore has a single source in Boston so I wouldn’t take much stock in that one
 

Euclis20

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You can name more than 20 players better than JB7 in the NBA?
It's not an outrageous statement. The ringer's last player rankings have him 21st, here are their top 20:

Jokic, Giannis, Luka, Curry, Durant, Embiid, Tatum, Kawhi, Lillard, Lebron, Booker, SGA, Davis, Mitchell, Morant, Harden, Butler, George, Zion and Sabonis.

Their criteria is murky ("biggest impact on the league right now," but then how is Zion on this list at all?), but mostly defensible. And it has Bam, Siakam, Ant, Markannen, Randle, Fox, all behind him (not inconceivable that some or most of those guys could have more value going forward).
 

Auger34

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I have been critical of JB even as the stats have shown otherwise. I think part of that is "the Chatter" that he wants to be the man.
I wouldnt trust a team where JB is the best player. I just wouldnt. I think he is an AWESOME "Robin". Truly sensational. My "issue" with JB is that he thinks he is one of the top 20 players in the NBA.....and he isnt. And that when you think you are a top 20 player you do things, like try to take over games that you are kinda ill suited to do, when you shouldnt.
Now I dont know how some of these games would play out different if when,Jaylen is playing well, he looked to pass and help get Tatum going, as opposed to Driving into traffic for potential Highlight reel finishes. But I think they might be better.

None of those things are necessarily bad things about JB. He SHOULD think he is a great player.....Like I am sure someone like Kevin Mchale thought he was a great player.....but Kevin Mchale never thought he should be taking the last shot over Larry Bird. Even on a night when Bird was cold and had 20 and Mchale was on fire and had 35.

Now I am not saying that JT is necessarily on Birds level. Just as I am not saying that JB is on Mchales level. But they as are many Alpha/Beta combos are analogous.
This is the second post like this you’ve made like this and theyre Both way off the mark.

-Jaylen is a top 20 player. Or if he’s not then he’s top 22…this post is written like he’s barely top 50.

-You’ve brought up the “wont defer to Tatum” thing both times. It’s complete bullshit. I’d say he might defer to Tatum too much if I’m being honest. Tatum has sucked ass recently and he’s still getting the last shot every time. When he misses,, Brown is still dapping him up and going with the flow. Even in the Houston game, which given the team they were playing might have been the worst game of Tatum’s career and brown was on fire, , when Tatum completely blew a wide open layup brown was there to dap him up.
this is starting with an opinion (I don’t want brown on the team) and making up stuff to fit that narrative
 

Auger34

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It's not an outrageous statement. The ringer's last player rankings have him 21st, here are their top 20:

Jokic, Giannis, Luka, Curry, Durant, Embiid, Tatum, Kawhi, Lillard, Lebron, Booker, SGA, Davis, Mitchell, Morant, Harden, Butler, George, Zion and Sabonis.

Their criteria is murky ("biggest impact on the league right now," but then how is Zion on this list at all?), but mostly defensible. And it has Bam, Siakam, Ant, Markannen, Randle, Fox, all behind him (not inconceivable that some or most of those guys could have more value going forward).
In the context of that post and what was said around it, it 1000000000% is an outrageous statement. That post was written as if Jaylen is barely a top 50 player who thinks he’s top 20 (“thinks he can do things a top 20 player can but he just can’t” do you think that’s written about someone who is the 21st or 22nd best player?)
 

bakahump

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I said no where he was a "Top 50 player". I chose my number carefully.

Would You trust a team that had JB as its BEST player?
 

RorschachsMask

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I said no where he was a "Top 50 player". I chose my number carefully.

Would You trust a team that had JB as its BEST player?
As good as he is, I don’t think he’s a guy who elevates teammates much, but I don’t fault him in the least if he were to want to see if he could do it. I have no clue what he wants or doesn’t want, but I do think if we win a title, he’s not going anywhere. The type of thoughts you describe would be more likely to pop up if the Celtics fall short again, IMO.
 

Auger34

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I said no where he was a "Top 50 player". I chose my number carefully.

Would You trust a team that had JB as its BEST player?
Context around what you wrote. If you’re really that precious about the number 20 that you would write “And that when you think you are a top 20 player you do things, like try to take over games that you are kinda ill suited to do, when you shouldnt” aboit the 21st or 22nd best player…then you care way more about that random number than anyone else
 

Deathofthebambino

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It's not an outrageous statement. The ringer's last player rankings have him 21st, here are their top 20:

Jokic, Giannis, Luka, Curry, Durant, Embiid, Tatum, Kawhi, Lillard, Lebron, Booker, SGA, Davis, Mitchell, Morant, Harden, Butler, George, Zion and Sabonis.

Their criteria is murky ("biggest impact on the league right now," but then how is Zion on this list at all?), but mostly defensible. And it has Bam, Siakam, Ant, Markannen, Randle, Fox, all behind him (not inconceivable that some or most of those guys could have more value going forward).
I don't know what criteria they are using either, but it certainly doesn't appear to include age or the ability to actually play an entire season.

33 year old Jimmy Butler has a bigger impact than Jaylen? 32 year old Paul George who plays with 31 year old Kawhi and their team sits at 38-34 and they are both ranked higher? Zion, LOL, are we talking about endorsements? I don't think Jaylen is any higher than 15 or 16, and yeah, they're mostly arguable, as are a few guys listed below Jaylen, but all of these lists are pretty ridiculous.
 

Auger34

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I said no where he was a "Top 50 player". I chose my number carefully.

Would You trust a team that had JB as its BEST player?
I mostly agree with Rorschach but it depends on who his teammates are really. I would prefer my best player be a better connector and playmaker than Jaylen but if you surround him with the right players who knows?