I actually posted on Twitter recently that I thought a FMVP would mean more for Jaylen than Tatum, accolades wise, HOF, etc.
Tatum having the game that he had tonight is all he needed.
Jaylen Brown: More than enough in Year 8.
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Tatum having the game that he had tonight is all he needed.
I am going to be bumping this thread for no apparent reason for years to come, because damn it, Jaylen Fucking Brown deserves to have this thread bumped for no apparent reason.
The intenstity of his defense on Luka in game 5 is the kind of thing that you can miss, but that wins you championships. He was a total dog tonight, in Luka's grill all game and you could tell he had decided he was going to work Luka defensively until one of them literally fell.
Awesome performance tonight, and in the playoffs. He's not the team's best player, but man...from the shot at the end of Indianapolis game 1 to the in-your-face defense on Luka tonight he was an absolute winner at both ends all the way through.
This guy was basically a great athlete, smart guy, and raw clay when picked. And how he is a champion and a spectacular all aorund player. Kudos to him for all the work and all the focus on what matters.
Awesome performance tonight, and in the playoffs. He's not the team's best player, but man...from the shot at the end of Indianapolis game 1 to the in-your-face defense on Luka tonight he was an absolute winner at both ends all the way through.
This guy was basically a great athlete, smart guy, and raw clay when picked. And how he is a champion and a spectacular all aorund player. Kudos to him for all the work and all the focus on what matters.
I feel like you me and @Jimbodandy need to have a FaceTime wherr we each hold fake Finals MVP awards.
I am so happy for him. I am also a petty asshole so I am also happy that all of the people who shit on him and threw their weight behind the opinion that he just wasn’t good enough and he was maxed out and all of that other bullshit look really stupid (though they wil never admit it unfortunately)
Oh, I've got some checks I'm going to cash on some assholes heads on Twitter in the coming days.
I think it’s incredibly fitting that Jaylen’s biggest weakness was his ability besides scoring, then wins a FMVP after going 7-23, because of everything else he did.
What an unbelievable 12 months for him. Forget the talk about whether or not he fit with Tatum, he was practically a punch line after playing like trash in game 7 last year and getting the biggest contract in history despite no one considering him even a top 15 player. For the last 4 months he's been an efficient high volume scorer while routinely asking to defend the opposing teams best perimeter player, and absolutely earned the ECF and Finals MVP trophies. He absolutely got himself into a top 10 conversation with his play over the last 2 months, and he and Tatum can credibly say they are the best wing duo since Jordan/Pippen.
His defensive improvement has been amazing and taking over the leadership role on this team has been something to see. Hopefully jis defense will keep up and he will get some recognition for it.
The fact that the national media basically overlooked him, even really going into the finals (saying things like the Mavs had the two best players,etc)... and not voting him onto any of the all NBA teams was ridiculous. JB had a great year helping lead one of the best teams of all time and nobody noticed.. until they had to.
Final vote totals.
View: https://twitter.com/NBAPR/status/1802925960368398703
Boston Celtics forward-guard Jaylen Brown received seven of the 11 votes for #NBAFinals MVP from a media panel covering the series. Celtics forward Jayson Tatum received the other four votes.
View: https://twitter.com/NBAPR/status/1802925960368398703
Boston Celtics forward-guard Jaylen Brown received seven of the 11 votes for #NBAFinals MVP from a media panel covering the series. Celtics forward Jayson Tatum received the other four votes.
It was interesting listening to the sounds of the game when JB was micced up in a number of the games in the playoffs. It really seems like he has grown into being a real leader on the team. Whether that’s just maturity or filling the Smart vacuum or a both, but it was nice to see. I loved hearing him talk about wanting to be on the floor whenever Luka was out there and denying Luka the ball. I don’t think he’s top 10 NBA, but he definitely shouldn’t have a problem staying in the top 15 for a bit.
Took a peek at the JB draft thread and the Jaylen Underrated threads and found these two gems. JB - total stud!
Chris Forsberg ESPN Staff Writer
Celtics No. 3 pick Jaylen Brown: "I'm going to go to war for this city. I'm going to play passionate."
Had I been voting for MVP I would have voted for Tatum. But it was close and I think the case for Brown is also very strong. (The ECF MVP was less of a close case, in that one I thoiught it sould oviously have gone to Brown - as it did.)
This was his best year, he improved himself in a range of ways, and it all mattered in the end.
This was his best year, he improved himself in a range of ways, and it all mattered in the end.
The older I get, the less and less I like the series MVP awards altogether, especially with a team like this. Like, maybe Tatum had the more important role but Jaylen executed his role better? But then, maybe Tatum’s role isn’t possible without the scheme they were playing possible because of who they had as their top six?
That said, I think these awards are often as much if not more an act of communication than a statement of fact. In this case I see Jaylen’s ECF and Finals MVP awards as essentially an apology to him as a player, and I’m here for it.
That said, I think these awards are often as much if not more an act of communication than a statement of fact. In this case I see Jaylen’s ECF and Finals MVP awards as essentially an apology to him as a player, and I’m here for it.
The NBA is a highly individually marketed sport (many sports are - but especially the NBA). This Celtics team was really a team. The top 6-7-8 players all really playing their roles and playing within themselves to win. It's not something you really see in the NBA so much, which is so much about individual accolades and getting your bag and supermaxes and all that.
We knew Jaylen had improved his playmaking, but the defense at the highest level of the sport was a revelation.
Really elevated his game.
He's going to improve more offensively this summer, and people are going to start getting really, really uncomfortable about where they need to rank him. Top-10 is very much in play.
Really elevated his game.
He's going to improve more offensively this summer, and people are going to start getting really, really uncomfortable about where they need to rank him. Top-10 is very much in play.
JB took his on-ball, perimeter D up a notch. He flashed Jrue's show hands/hips physically re-directing ball-handling guards away from the hoop (Caruso is also excellent at that). IMO his perimeter defense was so special, & where Joe had him live, that it impacted his defensive rebounding numbers (which may negatively impact the analytics)
Offensively, the left hand was much improved.
All-NBA & Olympic snubs, just more fuel.
Offensively, the left hand was much improved.
All-NBA & Olympic snubs, just more fuel.
Yup. We always play the exercise of "who'd you trade Tatum for". Well, it's time to do Jaylen too. That list...isn't long.
He absolutely hounded Luka all series. IMO, he was the best guy on him by a decent amount,
The playmaking and manipulating the D was just another level these last two series.
I don't think I can name 10 players that I would trade him for:
Jokic
Tatum
SGA
Giannis
Wemby
Ant
Booker
maybe Brunson?
maybe Mitchell?
I think he's 8th on that list. Really incredible
FYI Jaylen was 25th on the latest Ringer trade value column. https://nbarankings.theringer.com/rankings
Loved listening to Jaylen and Jason after the game. It's great to root for players who get it like they do. They've been through a lot and their level of appreciation and humility is pretty high.
Loved listening to Jaylen and Jason after the game. It's great to root for players who get it like they do. They've been through a lot and their level of appreciation and humility is pretty high.
I was looking at that for reference (I tihnk it's just a top 100 list though)
He would 100% be ranked above Sabonis, Bam, Fox, Murray and Zion. Should be ahead of Haliburton, PG and Mitchell
Good point there. That's why I kept Embiid off.
So anywhere from like 5-9 players that people would consider.
What a difference a year makes
For posterity:
Luka Doncic when defended by Jaylen Brown in the NBA Finals:
and
I'm not trading JB who plays defense like this for any offense-only player.
View: https://twitter.com/ChrisForsberg_/status/1803075425855262938?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1803075425855262938|twgr^8418c20f219c699a80c5afe54ddbcf20c755adf6|twcon^s1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcsportsboston.com%2Fnba%2Fboston-celtics%2Fjaylen-browns-defense-luka-doncic-celtics-nba-finals%2F622718%2F%3Fpartner%3Dyahoo
View: https://twitter.com/AndrewDBailey/status/1802943815428501872?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1802943815428501872|twgr^8418c20f219c699a80c5afe54ddbcf20c755adf6|twcon^s1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcsportsboston.com%2Fnba%2Fboston-celtics%2Fjaylen-browns-defense-luka-doncic-celtics-nba-finals%2F622718%2F%3Fpartner%3Dyahoo
Luka Doncic when defended by Jaylen Brown in the NBA Finals:
154.4 possessions
32:04 matchup time
21 PTS / 9-22 FG (40.9%) / 2-8 3PT (25.0%) / 5 TO / 2 Shooting Fouls
It was the most matchup time logged by a Celtics player vs an opponent in any round of the postseason.
and
Jaylen Brown defended Luka Dončić for 154.4 possessions in the Finals. Dallas scored 131 points on those possessions. That's an 84.8 offensive rating.
I'm not trading JB who plays defense like this for any offense-only player.
View: https://twitter.com/ChrisForsberg_/status/1803075425855262938?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1803075425855262938|twgr^8418c20f219c699a80c5afe54ddbcf20c755adf6|twcon^s1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcsportsboston.com%2Fnba%2Fboston-celtics%2Fjaylen-browns-defense-luka-doncic-celtics-nba-finals%2F622718%2F%3Fpartner%3Dyahoo
View: https://twitter.com/AndrewDBailey/status/1802943815428501872?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1802943815428501872|twgr^8418c20f219c699a80c5afe54ddbcf20c755adf6|twcon^s1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcsportsboston.com%2Fnba%2Fboston-celtics%2Fjaylen-browns-defense-luka-doncic-celtics-nba-finals%2F622718%2F%3Fpartner%3Dyahoo
It's interesting from a basketball perspective that the Celtics two best players are so fungible in that they can play with just about any lineup. If you look at some of the other big name players in the league - Embiid, Jokic, Luka - you really have to gameplan around them, and that also creates problems when those players go to the bench. JB and JT are just plug and play.
Great pull. And that effort is why he will wear a championship ring the rest of his days....
Thanks for posting. Defense won Jaylen the Finals MVP Award.
While 5s get most of the defensive awards (four Centers on first-team all-defense), players (like Jaylen/Jrue) who get physical on the perimeter, contain their man & can switch 1-5 are more valuable defensively in the modern NBA.
Gobert is an All-Time great at what he does (own the lane), but something just doesn't feel right when teams look to isolate the DPOY in the most highly leveraged situations.
Advance stats may need some more advancements:
For the 2016 draft class, per Basketball Reference.
Jaylon Brown WS 35.3 and VORP 9.7
Players with higher WS and/or VORP:
Ben Simmons VORP 14.6
Buddy Hield VORP 11.0
Jamal Murray VORP 10.7
Domantas Sabonis WS 59.8 and VORP 22.8
Pascal Siakam WS 47.9 and VORP 17.2
Dejante Murray VORP 12.5
Malcolm Brogdon VORP 11.1
I realize these are cumulative stats and in a few years Brown probably passes everyone but Sabonis, because Sabonis puts up box score numbers.
But, would you trade Brown for any of these guys, or even a combination of these guys?
For the 2016 draft class, per Basketball Reference.
Jaylon Brown WS 35.3 and VORP 9.7
Players with higher WS and/or VORP:
Ben Simmons VORP 14.6
Buddy Hield VORP 11.0
Jamal Murray VORP 10.7
Domantas Sabonis WS 59.8 and VORP 22.8
Pascal Siakam WS 47.9 and VORP 17.2
Dejante Murray VORP 12.5
Malcolm Brogdon VORP 11.1
I realize these are cumulative stats and in a few years Brown probably passes everyone but Sabonis, because Sabonis puts up box score numbers.
But, would you trade Brown for any of these guys, or even a combination of these guys?
no one who pays attention considers ws or vorp to be advanced stats. these are same league as per.
The other quality that Brown brought to the finals this year, along with his D and his offensive bursts, was intangible but, IMO, vital. It was an emotional component -- a vibe. It was predatory and ruthless and alpha angry and it infused the team with an edge they sometimes needed.
The other leaders of this team -- think Tatum, Jrue, D-White, Al -- are incredibly poised, even-keeled, somewhat softspoken, almost to a fault. The team was remarkably resilient and confident and goal-focused because of those qualities.
But every once in awhile the C's needed a degree of anger, a flair, a thunder-dunking display of dominance. More often than not during the season it was Jaylen that provided that element. Definitely during both the ECF and the Finals it was Jaylen who flexed, who cussed, who voiced some of the pent-up frustration, who in-your-faced everybody standing in the Celtics' way. All of that nature-film Orca ruthlessness CJM was trying to infuse the team with? I think it was often Jaylen who projected that threat of being not just skilled, but dangerous -- and who (I'm speculating here, I admit) may have spread it through his teammates.
All of this unquantifiable. It might reflect (and fuel) a fan's perception as much as represent a strategic internal reality for the team. But I am convinced it lent a certain charge to this version of the Celtics -- a charge that may well have been a vital ingredient in this year's championship.
The other leaders of this team -- think Tatum, Jrue, D-White, Al -- are incredibly poised, even-keeled, somewhat softspoken, almost to a fault. The team was remarkably resilient and confident and goal-focused because of those qualities.
But every once in awhile the C's needed a degree of anger, a flair, a thunder-dunking display of dominance. More often than not during the season it was Jaylen that provided that element. Definitely during both the ECF and the Finals it was Jaylen who flexed, who cussed, who voiced some of the pent-up frustration, who in-your-faced everybody standing in the Celtics' way. All of that nature-film Orca ruthlessness CJM was trying to infuse the team with? I think it was often Jaylen who projected that threat of being not just skilled, but dangerous -- and who (I'm speculating here, I admit) may have spread it through his teammates.
All of this unquantifiable. It might reflect (and fuel) a fan's perception as much as represent a strategic internal reality for the team. But I am convinced it lent a certain charge to this version of the Celtics -- a charge that may well have been a vital ingredient in this year's championship.
I actually think you could argue that it wouldn’t or couldn’t have come out with Marcus still here.
My main complaint with Smart was he never deferred to Tatum and Brown.. he thought he was part of a big three. He also thought he was the leader and Tatum especially deferred to him because Smart wouldn’t take a back seat. Smart leaving allowed JB, JT and DW all to step up even more.
JB goes for those thunderous dunks where JT goes finesse.. may just be an indication that JB’s dunks are usually a lot less contested.. but he also has finished over multiple people. JB has a lot more of a DGAF attitude.. where Tatum seems more reserved and careful. Wonder what these two bring next year now that they’ve won one and some of that pressure is off… I’d like to think it’ll be a lot more like the 4th of game 5 or 3rd of game 3… in any case the banner ceremony will be sweet.
One thing that no one is talking about is that Dallas’s offense is the perfect fit for Jaylen’s defense. Jaylen has always been a good on ball defender. He’s been very good for a few years and may be elite now. He’s improved his defense by consistently leaning into and developing that strength.
Dallas is a perfect matchup for him because their offense is so heliocentric. Jaylen can defend Doncic or Kyrie on ball, lock in, and just do that. He doesn’t need to worry about the off ball aspects of defense that he isn’t great at. That latter point isn’t a criticism of him either. Knowing your strengths and weaknesses is important. And knowing which to focus on developing is too. Jaylen has focused on building on his greatest defensive strength and the organization has also schemed defensively to maximize that strength really well. But the Dallas performance is not another level of Jaylen defense, it’s a matchup that shows off the thing he’s best at defensively.
Dallas is a perfect matchup for him because their offense is so heliocentric. Jaylen can defend Doncic or Kyrie on ball, lock in, and just do that. He doesn’t need to worry about the off ball aspects of defense that he isn’t great at. That latter point isn’t a criticism of him either. Knowing your strengths and weaknesses is important. And knowing which to focus on developing is too. Jaylen has focused on building on his greatest defensive strength and the organization has also schemed defensively to maximize that strength really well. But the Dallas performance is not another level of Jaylen defense, it’s a matchup that shows off the thing he’s best at defensively.
As armchair psychology goes, this isn't bad. Did they NEED that edge, though, in the sense of deriving a benefit from it? Impossible to say. There are plenty of championship teams out there who don't have an enforcer, a dirty player, or a in-your-face loudmouth. Plenty who do, too.
I guess maybe we should just be referring to the Jays as Fire and Ice. Add to their collective nicknames.
You can start with me if you'd like. I wouldn't have given him away, but I 100% would have rushed him to the airport for Durant. I thought he was done developing and would never be much more than an average defender and very good scorer/turnover risk with limited offensive upside beyond that. He took the criticism from last year and used it in a way I hope Luka never does.
That's a great observation. I believe that Jaylen has improved his off ball awareness and shot blocking help, jumping steals and such, but a heliocentric offense (double heliocentric even) is tailor made for his on ball skills. He wouldn't dominate as much as he did against a team with more actions.