Jacksonity......or the Knick thread

Grin&MartyBarret

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I don't love the Kidd move, and I love it a lot less if he comes via the MLE (as opposed to a Sign and trade). The guy is simply not that useful at this point, and frankly I see the backup point guard spot as ideally being handled by a young solid on the ball defender who can push a little bit (Greg Anthony, if you will).

If they keep the MLE, they should be in play for a guy like Camby, Lewis, Lee or Mayo. Any of those guys would be decent adds.
Yeah, I'm not crazy about it either.

My concern about the deal as a sign and trade, however, is that to get it done they'll have to include a useful player, and this team needs cheap bodies pretty badly. If the sign and trade consists of Gadzuric and Jerome Jordan, that's fine by me. I could live with Toney Douglas, too, though I think he's got a decent chance to bounce back this year. But I really don't want to see a cheap, useful source of bench minutes like Josh Harrellson sent away for a guy like Kidd whose value is limited. Harellson plays solid defense, hustles, rebounds at a pretty solid rate and most importantly, is inexpensive. It would be a shame to give away anybody who has a role on this team, given how thin the roster is. I expect they'll have to though.

As far as the MLE goes, I'd be hesitant to use that much money on Camby or Lewis, who I think could be had cheaper, but I'd be very happy with Lee or Mayo. I'd also like Long Island native Danny Green cheap (not on the MLE), but I have no sense of what he'll command.
 

A Bartlett Giamatti

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I would love Bayless for this team. They badly need youth and athleticism, he can shoot a little and would benefit from Kidds tutelage. He is a guy that couldnt figure it out on bad teams, but might emerge as an energy 8-10 guy on a playoff team in a good environment. Some team will get a steal, and i hope it's us.
 

jon abbey

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Steve Novak signs for 4/15, probably a year longer than ideal, but not terrible for the best (or close to the best, I don't feel like checking) shooter in the league last year.
 

jon abbey

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And the 1/2.8 deal that JR Smith has allegedly agreed to is a nice underpay (helped by his putrid playoff play), so it balances out a bit.
 

Ed Hillel

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Camby is a nice addition for the Knicks, though I think he's a tad redundant to Chandler, and I think Camby would mean more to other teams. I'm glad he's not going to the Heat, for example, and sad he's not going to the Celtics. Having two defense-first guys inside never hurts, though. The Knicks have a formiddle trio up front, especially if Amare's back isn't permanently effed.
 

A Bartlett Giamatti

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If I didn't know any better, I'd say the Knicks are trying to beat the Heat with a coherent plan of size, decent point guard play and depth. Not that it will work, but overwhelming size may be the way to go*.




*that's what she said.
 

jon abbey

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NY gave up quite a bit here, it seems. Douglas, Jordan, Jorts, two second round picks, and enough cash to pay Douglas' salary. They have Kidd and Camby both signed to three year deals now, too bad it's not 1998.
 

jon abbey

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So now NY has a bunch of roster spots to fill at the back end, it'll be interesting to see what they manage to do there. The nine man rotation should be pretty tough once Shumpert is back and Smith is coming off the bench again:

Lin
Smith?
Melo
Amare
Chandler

Kidd
Novak
Camby
Shumpert (when healthy)
Jeffries?
James White
 

A Bartlett Giamatti

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So now NY has a bunch of roster spots to fill at the back end, it'll be interesting to see what they manage to do there. The nine man rotation should be pretty tough once Shumpert is back and Smith is coming off the bench again:

Lin
Smith?
Melo
Amare
Chandler

Kidd
Novak
Camby
Shumpert (when healthy)
Jeffries?
James White
There's got to be more to come. They have Gadzuric's non guaranteed to make a 2 million S&T. While this seems like a lot, this gives the Rockets more room and chips to possibly keep Howard out of Brooklyn--no idea if that could be part of the motivation. I will miss Jorts, the other guys I don't care about.
 

jon abbey

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And the 1/2.8 deal that JR Smith has allegedly agreed to is a nice underpay (helped by his putrid playoff play), so it balances out a bit.
This is now official, with a second year player option at the same money, and NY can offer him a bigger money extension after this season.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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My irrational love of Marcus Camby makes it impossible for me to be in any way critical about his deal, even if that seems like a long time for a guy his age. He's one of my favorite Knicks of all time, I love his rate stats, and the Knicks desperately needed rebounding when Chandler's on the bench. And though I'm not a JR Smith guy, in a league where Landry Fields gets 25 million, he's definitely a huge bargain.

As for the rest of the roster, I'm interested to see what they're going to do. I think it's a safe assumption that Jeffries will be back since he offers a lot of defensive flexibility and will be cheap. Beyond that, who really knows. I'd like to see them add a big with at least some semblance of an offensive game to come off the bench, though obviously those are hard to come by on short money. Maybe a flier on somebody like Troy Murphy? He's been pretty useless for a couple of years now and will be cheap. Additionally, they invited Chris Copeland to play in the summer league. He's a 6'8, 240lb PF who was the MVP of the Belgian league last year and had pretty decent rate stats in the D-League at one point. They also invited Artsiom Parakhousi, who led Radford to the tournament a couple of years ago and has been in Ukraine, and a guy named Kyle Goldcamp who averaged 14 and 8 in the D-League last year. Additionally, they're going to have to add a 3rd string point guard most likely, which could be Walker Russell who is on their summer league roster and played 28 games in Detroit last year.
 

jon abbey

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Camby is 38, but has remarkably led the entire league in rebound percentage in each of the last three seasons.

Add Mike James to your list, G&MB, rumors out there about him, and Jodie Meeks would be a nice fit to help out at SG until Shumpert is back, if he's not out of their price range now (he probably is).
 

Cellar-Door

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I just can't believe that Marcus Camby is 38 years-old. 3 years is probably 1 year too many but his contract is far from a killer. And playing backup minutes should be enough to keep him fresh.
A sign and trade contract has to be 3 years, likely at least 1 year of the deal is unguaranteed.
Nice trade for the Knicks, 2nds and the replacement level garbage off the end of the bench.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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According to reports, the Knicks are close to making an offer to Argentinian PG Pablo Prigioni. He's been playing for Caja Laboral in Spain, a club that's frequently played at the highest level in Europe. He's been the starting PG on the Argentinian national team since 2006. He's 35 years old, so there's not a ton of longterm upside, but they must feel like he can contribute immediately. He's a pass first guy, doesn't seem to be a great shooter, but at 6'3 is big enough that he can probably play in the same backcourt as Lin, Kidd, or Smith.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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So, ESPN has an article stating that Lin is upset that the Knicks waited for the Rockets to make the first move. You'd think a Harvard grad would be smart enough to understand that the Knicks have all the leverage and were patiently waiting for the market to set his value.
And that the Knicks couldn't have given him the deal the Rockets did without the Rockets (or another team) first making the offer.
 

A Bartlett Giamatti

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So, ESPN has an article stating that Lin is upset that the Knicks waited for the Rockets to make the first move. You'd think a Harvard grad would be smart enough to understand that the Knicks have all the leverage and were patiently waiting for the market to set his value.
First of all, that's world-class idiot Frank Isola of the Daily News who reported it. He has an axe to grind with everyone, I give it about as much weight as a sports radio caller saying they should trade Jeffries for Howard.
 

jon abbey

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Heh, so once Shumpert is back and close to himself (fingers crossed), this is what I think NY's best lineups are at this point:

Offense: Amare, Melo, JR Smith, Shumpert, Lin
Defense: Chandler, Camby, Jeffries, Shumpert, Kidd

If you could change the lineup after every single possession, that team could compete with anyone, Dolan needs to petition for 500 additional TOs per game.
 

A Bartlett Giamatti

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Heh, so once Shumpert is back and close to himself (fingers crossed), this is what I think NY's best lineups are at this point:

Offense: Amare, Melo, JR Smith, Shumpert, Lin
Defense: Chandler, Camby, Jeffries, Shumpert, Kidd

If you could change the lineup after every single possession, that team could compete with anyone, Dolan needs to petition for 500 additional TOs per game.
You're severely overrating Shumpert if you think he's one of the five best offensive options this team has.

Our best lineups:

Offense--Camby, Amare, Melo, Smith, Lin (though in a half court, grind it out possession I'm putting Kidd on the floor for now).
Defense--Chandler, Camby, Smith, Shumpert and then one of Kidd/Anthony/Jeffries depending on matchups.
 

jon abbey

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Amare and Melo are much better offensively at 5/4 respectively. I would give you Amare/Melo/Smith/Lin/Kidd, though, although I love Shumpert's upside on offense if he returns from his injury as the same player. It's a mistake to look at his overall numbers from last year, if you break the season into thirds, he got decidedly better on offense each one.
 

A Bartlett Giamatti

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Amare and Melo are much better offensively at 5/4 respectively. I would give you Amare/Melo/Smith/Lin/Kidd, though, although I love Shumpert's upside on offense if he returns from his injury as the same player. It's a mistake to look at his overall numbers from last year, if you break the season into thirds, he got decidedly better on offense each one.
I don't disagree--and my comment was much more about fit then Shumpert. I just prefer better outside shooting on the court with Melo and Amare than Shumpert offers. Also, I think Amare and camby can work better than Tyson because camby isn't a primary screener and hangs around the outside. Having an open middle, as opposed to position, is the primary decider in how effective Amare can be. Camby can also play off Melo and Amare and hit a 15-17' jumper.
 

jon abbey

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Knicks trade Jared Jeffries and Dan Gadzuric for Ray Felton and Kurt Thomas. This gives them two members of the 1999 Knicks team that made the Finals now (Camby and Thomas). :)
 

jon abbey

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And they didn't match Fields' offer, so he goes to Toronto, and there are strong rumors they're not going to match on Lin, which isn't as crazy as it sounds, as his style isn't really a great fit for the rest of the team.

Kidd/Felton/Prigioni
JR Smith/TBA/Shumpert (hurt, back in Dec/Jan)
Melo/James White
Amare/Kurt Thomas
Chandler/Camby
 

Cellar-Door

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Smart move by the knicks if they don't match Lin. Beyond just the money issues of the tax they would have some real competetive disadvantages to signing when the new rules kick in.
 

A Bartlett Giamatti

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PLEASE MAKE IT STOP. They really aren't matching Lin? Really?!?!?!?! Our point guards, in the east, in a win now scenario, total 103 years old? PLEASE MAKE IT STOP.

I have emailed the guy who was selling me season tickets that I wasn't interested if they don't match on Lin. This is purely calculated--I don't love him but I cant possibly Understand finding frugality now.
 

jon abbey

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Where does it say they aren't matching?
That's the prevalent sentiment on Twitter right now, Marc Berman of the Post specifically wrote that his sources told him that.

Lin's herky-jerky style means that he will always be a major injury risk, and his score first/pass later and meh defense aren't a great fit for the rest of the team as constructed. I'm OK with letting him go, although it's a little odd they didn't sign and trade him to get some assets back (before he signed the offer, obviously, although I guess the offer changed at the last minute, so maybe that's why).
 

Jed Zeppelin

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So after all that, assuming they don't match, Linsanity will only have lasted for about 25 games.
 

jon abbey

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NY has until Tuesday at midnight to decide about matching Lin, I think they're going to need most of that time to figure out what they want to do.
 

radsoxfan

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The Kidd/Felton PG combo is going to be a complete disaster. Both guys were terrible last season. Kidd is old, and Felton is fat. 3 years/20M for that duo....Yikes.

Give me Lin and a random NBDL'er any day (I know the Lin 3rd year offer makes things different, but I would still match if the alternative is what the Knicks decided to go with)
 

JCizzle

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Gotta love Melo of all people making a snide comment about Lin getting a "ridiculous" contract. Never change.
 

Caspir

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Not to mention his thoughts on their current crop of point guards.

"I mean, what other point guards are we going to get at this point?"
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/eye-on-basketball/19590386/carmelo-anthony-calls-jeremy-lins-contract-ridiculous
 

snowmanny

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Well they spin the comments to say that he os saying that it is the structuring of the contract, with the big third year salary, that is "ridiculous."

If Lin signed a contract that was specifically designed to hurt the Knicks if they matched it I can see why NY would walk away.

It sounds sort of like the Curtis Martin scenario.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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The Kidd/Felton PG combo is going to be a complete disaster. Both guys were terrible last season. Kidd is old, and Felton is fat. 3 years/20M for that duo....Yikes.

Give me Lin and a random NBDL'er any day (I know the Lin 3rd year offer makes things different, but I would still match if the alternative is what the Knicks decided to go with)
Yep. And neither Kidd nor Felton is particularly suited to a Woodson style offense. I can't help but feel like somebody in the Knicks front office is letting Felton's one good half season sway him a bit too much. Sure, Lin's got a small sample size of success too, but at least he's got youth and potential on his side. Felton is what he is at this point, which is a mediocre, overweight, poor-shooting point guard. Lin is better statistically in every relevant category.

Hell of a time for James Dolan to start exercising financial restraint.
 

wutang112878

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It was my understanding that Morey is a stats guy. Granted Lin has a super small NBA sample size [not even 2 months of NBA basketball] but the first month his assist to turnover ratio was very bad 8.4 to 5.0. Then the next month the turnovers went down by about 2 a game, but the assists did as well, so the assist to turnover ratio was then 6.3 to 2.8. In addition to that his FG% went down from 47% to 40%, and his 3pt attempt per game actually went down from 2.9 to 2.6

I do think Lin has potential, but just based on stats it seems like from his first month of playing to the next his game changed but he didnt become that much more effective. Just based on the raw stats, I cant understand why he is worth $8M considering the small sample size.

My guess is that Morey has more complex algorithms that somehow account for playing with Melo who is a 'just give me the ball' type of player, but I have to admit I dont get this offer by the Rockets.
 

bowiac

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So does anyone have a good idea of what the actual cost of Lin's 3rd season would be for the Knicks? I've seen numbers ranging from $15M to $70M, because of the odd way the luxury tax works for repeat offenders.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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So does anyone have a good idea of what the actual cost of Lin's 3rd season would be for the Knicks? I've seen numbers ranging from $15M to $70M, because of the odd way the luxury tax works for repeat offenders.
They would be paying about $45 million dollars in tax.

It's funny though, the way the media talks about it implies that Jeremy Lin would cost them $45 million in tax, which ignores every other contract on the team.
 

wutang112878

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And also ignores how horribly the team has been run considering how close they are to the luxury tax 3 years down the road with a core that really isnt that great.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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It was my understanding that Morey is a stats guy. Granted Lin has a super small NBA sample size [not even 2 months of NBA basketball] but the first month his assist to turnover ratio was very bad 8.4 to 5.0. Then the next month the turnovers went down by about 2 a game, but the assists did as well, so the assist to turnover ratio was then 6.3 to 2.8. In addition to that his FG% went down from 47% to 40%, and his 3pt attempt per game actually went down from 2.9 to 2.6

I do think Lin has potential, but just based on stats it seems like from his first month of playing to the next his game changed but he didnt become that much more effective. Just based on the raw stats, I cant understand why he is worth $8M considering the small sample size.

My guess is that Morey has more complex algorithms that somehow account for playing with Melo who is a 'just give me the ball' type of player, but I have to admit I dont get this offer by the Rockets.
There's a major difference between this offer from the Rockets perspective and this offer from the Knicks perspective, and it's one that seems to be a pretty glaring flaw in the new CBA. The cap hit for this contract is much different for the Rockets than it is for the Knicks. For the Knicks, their cap is charged with the actual annual amounts, which makes the 3rd year very difficult to swallow. For the Rockets, the cap hit is the average of the deal--which is about 8.3 million per year. In other words, the Rockets offered a contract to Lin that pays him about the same amount as Devin Harris, Rodney Stuckey, Mike Conley, and Goran Dragic, where as if the Knicks match, they get two years at 5 million (similar to what Ramon Sessions, JJ Barea, and Luke Ridnour make) and one year at 14 million which is more money than Tony Parker or Rajon Rondo make.