Is It Over Now? Chiefs/Niners SB Thread

trekfan55

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Me neither. And I also doubt he would have gone for a 4th and 1 from his 34 as he did in OT by necessity in the actual game. At the time, when Shanahan kicked the FG, I thought he really had no choice given the circumstances. Now I'm less sure about that.
In a vaccum maybe he should have gone for it.

But I think he knew the defense had nothing vs Mahomes at that point. And they in fact had nothing. So giving them the ball to drive for a FG with no clock to run out is basically giving them the game.
At least I think it's reasonable that Shanahan wanted the ball on a 3rd possesion needing only a FG, and if the defense does a slightly better job. Arrgh I really have to stop thinking about this game.
 

CFB_Rules

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I've started to see people argue online that Andy Reid is the GOAT coach. Reasoning of course is that he built powerhouse teams at two different places, and that as soon as he got a HoF QB he was just as dominant as Belichick.

Obviously he isn't there yet, but I think Belichick's legacy is closer to being surpassed than Brady's. Especially when you couple that with the fact that the media would love to push Belichick aside as soon as possible since they see him as a surly asshole.
 

Justthetippett

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I've started to see people argue online that Andy Reid is the GOAT coach. Reasoning of course is that he built powerhouse teams at two different places, and that as soon as he got a HoF QB he was just as dominant as Belichick.

Obviously he isn't there yet, but I think Belichick's legacy is closer to being surpassed than Brady's. Especially when you couple that with the fact that the media would love to push Belichick aside as soon as possible since they see him as a surly asshole.
If Reid can get to 4 or 5 Lombardis and the overall wins recoed, then this will get louder. But I think you'll start hearing from the Walsh, Knoll, Shula people as well and you'll just have them all, BB included, talked about as the group of all-time greats.
 

trekfan55

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The theme here is that the Chiefs look unstoppable. But how long can they keep the team together (or as together as possible) in the salary cap era?

I mean I know Mahome did it with "ragtag" receivers, but the defense carried the day too and that unit will also be hard to keep.

The Dallas Cowbows put together an amazing team in the 90's and won 3 of 4 SuperBowls, and only missed going to at least one more (which they would have whipped the Broncos) because the Niners finally beat them in the NFCCG. Then they started fading, between aging and the salary cap and Jerry Jones.
 

Justthetippett

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The theme here is that the Chiefs look unstoppable. But how long can they keep the team together (or as together as possible) in the salary cap era?

I mean I know Mahome did it with "ragtag" receivers, but the defense carried the day too and that unit will also be hard to keep.

The Dallas Cowbows put together an amazing team in the 90's and won 3 of 4 SuperBowls, and only missed going to at least one more (which they would have whipped the Broncos) because the Niners finally beat them in the NFCCG. Then they started fading, between aging and the salary cap and Jerry Jones.
Mahomes is a generational talent and he's carried them each time. So it all comes down to his health and performance. He gives them a chance every year he's at or near his current level. The single bye and just dumb injury luck means they won't keep up this run of AFC title games and SBs forever, but his window is probably 7 more years at least. As his body declines his mental game might make up for it too. He's a scary dude for the rest of the league.

Their defense was good but that team doesn't get anywhere near the SB this year without Mahomes. That's impressive. I thought this was going to be their Pats 2006 year - close but too much to overcome. And he did it anyways.
 

CFB_Rules

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With the caveat that this will seem like sour grapes (it is) and that all kinds of penalties are missed on both sides, this link is still damning.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3RYOqRrppb/?igsh=MWQ1ZGUxMzBkMA==
I've kind of beat this drum before, but "all kinds of penalties" are not missed on both sides. Generally there will only be one or two downgrades in a game by an average crew. If you think a ton of stuff is being missed in every game, then you simply don't know where the line is between what is a foul and what is not.

For example, in that video I would only consider calling the third play a hold. I would talk to the player on the first play. The second play I wouldn't even talk to them.
 

BaseballJones

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I've started to see people argue online that Andy Reid is the GOAT coach. Reasoning of course is that he built powerhouse teams at two different places, and that as soon as he got a HoF QB he was just as dominant as Belichick.

Obviously he isn't there yet, but I think Belichick's legacy is closer to being surpassed than Brady's. Especially when you couple that with the fact that the media would love to push Belichick aside as soon as possible since they see him as a surly asshole.
I agree with this. And honestly, Reid deserves the love. He's been an amazing coach. If he wins a couple more, he absolutely should be in that conversation. He should already be in the conversation as one of the greats.

If you think of him having been HC of three teams, this picture really comes into play:

Team 1 - Philly - McNabb and Vick as QBs
- 14 seasons
- 224-130 (.633)
- 6 first place finishes
- 4 straight trips to the conf. championship
- 1 SB appearance (loss)

Team 2 - KC - Alex Smith as QB
- 53-27 (.663)
- 2 first place finishes

Team 3 - KC - Patrick Mahomes as QB
- 75-24 (.758)
- 6 first place finishes
- 6 straight trips to the conf. championship
- 4 SB appearances
- 3 SB titles

He's been excellent his whole career (a couple of bad years sprinkled in there of course), and he's done it with multiple QBs. McNabb was a great QB - not a HOFer, but great nonetheless (6x Pro Bowl, 2nd in MVP in 2000) and Vick was obviously super talented (4x Pro Bowler himself and 2x in top 4 in MVP). Alex Smith was solid - not great but solid. So he had good talent available to him at QB, but the fact is, Reid has been absolutely fantastic as a HC. He did very, very well with his non HOF QBs, and then when he got one (Mahomes), he's obviously been off the charts phenomenal.
 

barclay

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I've kind of beat this drum before, but "all kinds of penalties" are not missed on both sides. Generally there will only be one or two downgrades in a game by an average crew. If you think a ton of stuff is being missed in every game, then you simply don't know where the line is between what is a foul and what is not.

For example, in that video I would only consider calling the third play a hold. I would talk to the player on the first play. The second play I wouldn't even talk to them.
Just out of interest, looking at the FIRST play looks to me like a bear hug. So why don't you consider it to be holding?
 

Remagellan

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I agree with this. And honestly, Reid deserves the love. He's been an amazing coach. If he wins a couple more, he absolutely should be in that conversation. He should already be in the conversation as one of the greats.

If you think of him having been HC of three teams, this picture really comes into play:

Team 1 - Philly - McNabb and Vick as QBs
- 14 seasons
- 224-130 (.633)
- 6 first place finishes
- 4 straight trips to the conf. championship
- 1 SB appearance (loss)

Team 2 - KC - Alex Smith as QB
- 53-27 (.663)
- 2 first place finishes

Team 3 - KC - Patrick Mahomes as QB
- 75-24 (.758)
- 6 first place finishes
- 6 straight trips to the conf. championship
- 4 SB appearances
- 3 SB titles

He's been excellent his whole career (a couple of bad years sprinkled in there of course), and he's done it with multiple QBs. McNabb was a great QB - not a HOFer, but great nonetheless (6x Pro Bowl, 2nd in MVP in 2000) and Vick was obviously super talented (4x Pro Bowler himself and 2x in top 4 in MVP). Alex Smith was solid - not great but solid. So he had good talent available to him at QB, but the fact is, Reid has been absolutely fantastic as a HC. He did very, very well with his non HOF QBs, and then when he got one (Mahomes), he's obviously been off the charts phenomenal.
A friend of mine told me two WIP (local Philly sportstalk station) guys were debating why Andy Reid couldn't have achieved similar success with the Eagles. I mean, is that really a question in anyone's mind?
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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A friend of mine told me two WIP (local Philly sportstalk station) guys were debating why Andy Reid couldn't have achieved similar success with the Eagles. I mean, is that really a question in anyone's mind?
Everything I've ever read from both Eagles fans and non-Eagles fans is that Reid's time in Philly had run its course and a divorce between coach and team was best for both sides.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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The answer they were looking for is PATRICK MAHOMES.
Reid had McNabb and Alex Smith and while he didn't win a SB with them, he accomplished plenty with both.

He's also a better coach now than he was in his earlier days, particularly with clock management. Even with Smith in KC he was terrible with the clock, especially in the playoff game in Foxboro where they were huddling up down 14 with a minute left.
 

Remagellan

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Reid had McNabb and Alex Smith and while he didn't win a SB with them, he accomplished plenty with both.

He's also a better coach now than he was in his earlier days, particularly with clock management. Even with Smith in KC he was terrible with the clock, especially in the playoff game in Foxboro where they were huddling up down 14 with a minute left.
Granted all that, but Mahomes is special, and he's the reason why Reid has three rings with the Chiefs and none with the Eagles, just as Brady is the reason why Bill has six rings with the Patriots and none with the Browns. Reid has had a lot to do with Mahomes' development and success, just as Belichick did with Brady. But having one of the greatest QBs in history leading his team as opposed to even a very good one has got to be considered the chief reason (pun intended) why Reid has been more successful in KC than he was in Philly.
 
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Granted all that, but Mahomes is special, and he's the reason why Reid has three rings with the Chiefs and none with the Eagles, just as Brady is the reason why Bill has six rings with the Patriots and none with the Browns. Reid has had a lot to do with Mahomes' development and success, just as Belichick did with Brady. But having one of the greatest QBs in history leading his team as opposed to even a very good one has got to be considered the chief reason (pun intended) why Reid has been more successful in KC than he was in Philly.
I think an underrated (maybe less so very recently) part of Reid’s success is now being paired with a HOF (?) defensive coordinator. He can work his magic on offense while Spags handles the defense at an elite level.

Not that Jim Johnson was a bad coordinator but Spagnuolo is on another level.
 

Hoya81

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I think an underrated (maybe less so very recently) part of Reid’s success is now being paired with a HOF (?) defensive coordinator. He can work his magic on offense while Spags handles the defense at an elite level.

Not that Jim Johnson was a bad coordinator but Spagnuolo is on another level.
Johnson was an excellent DC, especially for the 2000-2004 Eagles. The Philly defensive staff in those years was stacked with future HCs: Spagnuolo, John Harbaugh, Ron Rivera, Sean McDermott, Leslie Frazier.
 

Oil Can Dan

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I don’t think you’re saying otherwise, but it’s a credit to Reid for building and developing those staffs. He didn’t get paired up with these guys by chance.
 

ShaneTrot

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Spags is very good but the Chiefs have drafted well on the defensive side of the ball. Jones, McDuffie, Karlaftis, Bolton, Chenal, Gay, and Sneed are all homegrown players.
 

Gambler7

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Firing Wilks seems like a terrible choice and Hardo-esque ass covering from Shanahan. In what world is the SF defense the reason they lost this game?
Bert Breer was on 98.5 this week and indicated this was a long time coming and they had issues all year with Wilks. It wasn't because of the results of the Super Bowl.
 

CFB_Rules

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Just out of interest, looking at the FIRST play looks to me like a bear hug. So why don't you consider it to be holding?
Because he doesn't restrict him from going anywhere, and the spin move takes him directly into the body. He has good feet, which is more important than hand placement. The blocker is still in a straight-line between Bosa and the quarterback.

I'd go talk to him because it's dumb technique that will get him flagged, and indeed if Mahomes had done any scrambling it would be liable to be a foul.

In the NFL holds are required to be written up as one of three categories:

Hook and restrict - No
Takedown - No
Grab and restrict - Obviously the grab is there but the material restriction isn't.

Here's an old doc on holding from the former NFL supervisor of officials:
https://www.tbfoc.org/wp-content/uploads/HoldingPhilosophy.pdf
 

ShaneTrot

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I was listening to the athletic GM podcast and one of the points Mike Sando made was the 49ers stars let them down Mccaffrey fumbled, Kittle and Deebo were held in check, Trent Williams had a drive killing penalty.
 

barclay

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Because he doesn't restrict him from going anywhere, and the spin move takes him directly into the body. He has good feet, which is more important than hand placement. The blocker is still in a straight-line between Bosa and the quarterback.

I'd go talk to him because it's dumb technique that will get him flagged, and indeed if Mahomes had done any scrambling it would be liable to be a foul.

In the NFL holds are required to be written up as one of three categories:

Hook and restrict - No
Takedown - No
Grab and restrict - Obviously the grab is there but the material restriction isn't.

Here's an old doc on holding from the former NFL supervisor of officials:
https://www.tbfoc.org/wp-content/uploads/HoldingPhilosophy.pdf
I appreciate the link and additional information. I come here for that -- its one of the things that distinguishes the SOSH board.
 

Silverdude2167

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I've started to see people argue online that Andy Reid is the GOAT coach. Reasoning of course is that he built powerhouse teams at two different places, and that as soon as he got a HoF QB he was just as dominant as Belichick.

Obviously he isn't there yet, but I think Belichick's legacy is closer to being surpassed than Brady's. Especially when you couple that with the fact that the media would love to push Belichick aside as soon as possible since they see him as a surly asshole.
Andy Reid has played BB three times in the playoffs and lost all three time. The final time he had the better team.

I don't think we need to look any further than that to say he is not better than BB.

Also if BB had the same McNabb and Smith as his other QBs instead of Mac and whatever he had in Cleveland his record outside of Brady would probably be better.

This final part is hard to prove, but I have yet to see a Chiefs team that would constantly beat a Pats team from the 20 year run. Maybe they beat some of the bad defensive teams in the early 10s.
 

Oil Can Dan

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It’s like arguing Ferrari vs Lambo. That said I think BB was more versatile than Reid from a game plan perspective. We all know the Pats could beat you one way this week then a totally different way next week, whereas Reid was/is a bit more of a one-trick pony. Reid did evolve from seriously pass-happy to a more balanced offense over the last 20+ years but that’s not really the same thing. Not sure it makes BB ‘better’ or whatever but I do think it’s worth something.
 

Al Zarilla

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It’s like arguing Ferrari vs Lambo. That said I think BB was more versatile than Reid from a game plan perspective. We all know the Pats could beat you one way this week then a totally different way next week, whereas Reid was/is a bit more of a one-trick pony. Reid did evolve from seriously pass-happy to a more balanced offense over the last 20+ years but that’s not really the same thing. Not sure it makes BB ‘better’ or whatever but I do think it’s worth something.
We watched a (really) old movie about Rembrandt last night, so how about Rembrandt vs. Van Gogh. da Vinci vs. Michelangelo? Andy doesn't have the volume yet though.
 

Hoya81

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It’s like arguing Ferrari vs Lambo. That said I think BB was more versatile than Reid from a game plan perspective. We all know the Pats could beat you one way this week then a totally different way next week, whereas Reid was/is a bit more of a one-trick pony. Reid did evolve from seriously pass-happy to a more balanced offense over the last 20+ years but that’s not really the same thing. Not sure it makes BB ‘better’ or whatever but I do think it’s worth something.
If the T.O situation hadn’t blown up so spectacularly, they could have made a few more deep playoff runs with that group and Reid’s career might look a lot different.
 
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Spags is very good but the Chiefs have drafted well on the defensive side of the ball. Jones, McDuffie, Karlaftis, Bolton, Chenal, Gay, and Sneed are all homegrown players.
Yes they have, although Spags probably had a lot to do with the success of those players

that said, he had the 7th best D in 2019 and won a Super Bowl with only Jones (of that group of home grown talent).
 

Salva135

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Andy Reid has played BB three times in the playoffs and lost all three time. The final time he had the better team.

I don't think we need to look any further than that to say he is not better than BB.

Also if BB had the same McNabb and Smith as his other QBs instead of Mac and whatever he had in Cleveland his record outside of Brady would probably be better.

This final part is hard to prove, but I have yet to see a Chiefs team that would constantly beat a Pats team from the 20 year run. Maybe they beat some of the bad defensive teams in the early 10s.
It's funny how Reid went from the bumbling clock mismanager to the master of the OT strategy. Having an all-world QB who can function highly in all conditions and situations certainly helps. I tend to think of Andy Reid as the offensive equivalent of BB - he didn't just win with McNabb and Smith, he revived Vick's career and made Kevin Kolb a near-elite QB for a bit. He seems to work magic on the offensive side of the ball with any personnel the way BB does on the defensive side. If Belichick is a better coach, it's almost certainly not by that much. The total wins and trophies are going to converge a lot over the next few years. He and Mahomes are racking up championships and awards at such an accelerated pace that all of the records seem to be on the table.
 

j44thor

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Chiefs have also been crushing the draft in recent years. They basically rebuilt the D in one draft with McDuffie, Karlaftis and Chenal all drafted in 2022 not to mention Pacheco in that same draft. That is up there with the NE draft of 2010 or 2003 both of which generated multiple pro-bowl/all-pro starters. The year before they hit homeruns with Nick Bolton and Creed Humphrey both in the 2nd rd. and Rice looks like an extremely good value in the 2nd last year. Despite consistently drafting late they have been finding starters draft after draft. Combine that with Mahomes and Reid and a dynasty is born. Not unlike NE after the 2003 draft that turned out Ty Warren, Eugene Wilson, Asante, Koppen, Tully Banta Cain. 2010 with McCourty, Gronk, Spikes.
 

Salva135

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Chiefs have also been crushing the draft in recent years. They basically rebuilt the D in one draft with McDuffie, Karlaftis and Chenal all drafted in 2022 not to mention Pacheco in that same draft. That is up there with the NE draft of 2010 or 2003 both of which generated multiple pro-bowl/all-pro starters. The year before they hit homeruns with Nick Bolton and Creed Humphrey both in the 2nd rd. and Rice looks like an extremely good value in the 2nd last year. Despite consistently drafting late they have been finding starters draft after draft. Combine that with Mahomes and Reid and a dynasty is born. Not unlike NE after the 2003 draft that turned out Ty Warren, Eugene Wilson, Asante, Koppen, Tully Banta Cain. 2010 with McCourty, Gronk, Spikes.

They're rebuilding the defense at the exact moment the offense is losing a few pieces. The Pats won championships before they became awesome, and then sporadically thereafter.. The Chiefs are winning championships while being awesome.