Game 1 Philly, Silver Linings

[cshea]

I thought the officiating was fine. The Henry call stands out but FWIW there's been some chatter that the officials announced the wrong number and it was actually on Pharoh Brown (86 vs 85) and it was legit. I haven't seen a replay, so can't comment on the legitimacy if it was Brown. Henry did not hold on the play though and if that's indeed what the flag was for, that sucks and is a game changing bad call.

Most of the rest seemed like the typical "you could call holding on every play" type stuff. The Mafi one on the Elliott scren was the correct call, he hooked the defender. Brown tackled the rusher on the 2-point try.

There was a 3rd down early in the game that I think the Eagles got away with a DPI (and Romo called it out) but that's kind of it. Didn't think the officials were a huge factor barring whatever happened with the Henry hold.

 

[rodderick]

Give me one call that complete changed the game the way the Henry "hold" did. Because that call took at least 3 points off the board and probably 7 and was one of the worst holding calls I have ever seen.

I heard today that Zolak said the ref got confused and they actually threw the flag on another player, but he mixed up the numbers and called it on Henry. Could be an explanation because you're right, it was one of the most bizarre holding calls I've ever seen.

 

[Marciano490]

Give me one call that completely changed the game the way the Henry "hold" did. Because that call took at least 3 points off the board and probably 7 and was one of the worst holding calls I have ever seen.

We’re gonna pretend there wasn’t dpi on Philly’s last 4th down attempt?

 

[Silverdude2167]

We’re gonna pretend there wasn’t dpi on Philly’s last 4th down attempt?

Was that actually being questioned?

 

[lexrageorge]

I heard today that Zolak said the ref got confused and they actually threw the flag on another player, but he mixed up the numbers and called it on Henry. Could be an explanation because you're right, it was one of the most bizarre holding calls I've ever seen.

The officials huddled a long time before making the call, so am wondering if the discussion was related to some confusion on whom to call the penalty. It would make sense as the Henry "hold" was literally nothing.

 

[NickEsasky]

We’re gonna pretend there wasn’t dpi on Philly’s last 4th down attempt?

Yeah that's a crafty vet move from Gonzalez, but normally a rookie gets called for that hook.

 

[Marciano490]

Was that actually being questioned?

Are you drawing a distinction between call and non call? Because I think a 4th down non call with 2 minutes left in a 1 possession game is pretty impactful.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

I thought the officiating was fine. The Henry call stands out but FWIW there's been some chatter that the officials announced the wrong number and it was actually on Pharoh Brown (86 vs 85) and it was legit. I haven't seen a replay, so can't comment on the legitimacy if it was Brown. Henry did not hold on the play though and if that's indeed what the flag was for, that sucks and is a game changing bad call.

Most of the rest seemed like the typical "you could call holding on every play" type stuff. The Mafi one on the Elliott scren was the correct call, he hooked the defender. Brown tackled the rusher on the 2-point try.

There was a 3rd down early in the game that I think the Eagles got away with a DPI (and Romo called it out) but that's kind of it. Didn't think the officials were a huge factor barring whatever happened with the Henry hold.

@CFB_Rules had said in the game thread that he didn't see the Henry play, but he actually questioned the holding call on Mafi. Here is the rulebook on offensive holding:

1. When a defensive player is held by an offensive player during the following situations, Offensive Holding will not be called:
   1. if the runner is being tackled simultaneously by any defensive player;
   2. if the runner simultaneously goes out of bounds;
   3. if a Fair Catch is made simultaneously;
   4. if the action clearly occurs after a forward pass has been thrown to a receiver beyond the line of scrimmage;
   5. if the action occurs away from the point of attack and not within close line play;
   6. if a free kick results in a touchback;
   7. if a scrimmage kick simultaneously becomes a touchback;
   8. if the action is part of a double-team block, unless the defender splits the double team, gets to the outside of either blocker, or is taken to the ground; or
   9. if, during a defensive charge, a defensive player uses a “rip” technique that puts an offensive player in a position that would normally be holding.
2. Exception: Holding will be called if the defender’s feet are taken away from him by the blocker’s action.

I believe he said something about the defensive player who was held not being disadvantaged by the hold (he actually made the tackle on the play).

 

[Cellar-Door]

I heard today that Zolak said the ref got confused and they actually threw the flag on another player, but he mixed up the numbers and called it on Henry. Could be an explanation because you're right, it was one of the most bizarre holding calls I've ever seen.

Even at the time it happened Phil Perry was tweeting that he was pretty sure it was on Brown holding Reddick.

View: https://twitter.com/PhilAPerry/status/1701001953743172024

 

[rodderick]

Even at the time it happened Phil Perry was tweeting that he was pretty sure it was on Brown holding Reddick.

View: https://twitter.com/PhilAPerry/status/1701001953743172024

Issue is looking back at a close replay that focuses on Henry you can see Brown in the background and it doesn't look like he did anything either?
View: https://twitter.com/jasrifootball/status/1701001100961382859

 

[Silverdude2167]

Are you drawing a distinction between call and non call? Because I think a 4th down non call with 2 minutes left in a 1 possession game is pretty impactful.

No I just did not see much questioning of the play.

If it was DPI so was the play in the first half where the Eagles DB got there a step and half early and there was no call.

The plays are not comparable because one deviated from the standard set by the refs during the game and one did not.

This is all moot anyways and as like 5 people have now posted maybe we are just confused by the incompetence of this officiating crew. (They seemed the most confused I have ever seen a crew, so many huddles).

 

[Cellar-Door]

Issue is looking back at a close replay that focuses on Henry you can see Brown in the background and it doesn't look like he did anything either?
View: https://twitter.com/jasrifootball/status/1701001100961382859

He has both arms wrapped around Reddick from behind? That clip ends with him about to throw him to the ground. It wasn't an impactful hold maybe (thought may have been an impactful block in the back) but it was a pretty blatant one, he wrapped him up from behind and tackled him.

 

[Strike4]

- Bad things late - Mac getting sacked. Bad hold on the 2-point conversion. Not executing. Not getting a play off and getting flagged for delay of game. Running a bad play on 3rd down late. Lots of things they did were just not helpful at the end.

I think at the end of the day, this is what separates the Patriots from being a "good team". Not a great team, but one that at least makes the playoffs and can build it up.

 

[rodderick]

He has both arms wrapped around Reddick from behind? That clip ends with him about to throw him to the ground. It wasn't an impactful hold maybe (thought may have been an impactful block in the back) but it was a pretty blatant one, he wrapped him up from behind and tackled him.

You're right, looks like he wraps up Reddick there.

 

[Over Guapo Grande]

Are you drawing a distinction between call and non call? Because I think a 4th down non call with 2 minutes left in a 1 possession game is pretty impactful.

The distinction is usually if the defender turns the offensive player, is it not? And no one on the Iggles complained in real time, which was pretty telling.

 

[Jungleland]

Thought it was actually about as well reffed a game as you can realistically hope for with the exception of the Henry call and the missed PI on Gonzalez on the Eagles' last offensive play. I was extremely frustrated in the moment with the Henry call as it felt like a significant momentum change, but in the end the Pats got an entire extra shot to win the game because Gonz got away with one. I for sure am not blaming the refs a day later with that being the case.

 

[CFB_Rules]

Issue is looking back at a close replay that focuses on Henry you can see Brown in the background and it doesn't look like he did anything either?
View: https://twitter.com/jasrifootball/status/1701001100961382859

Nah that's an incorrect call. Would be STUNNED if the NFL supported this.

 

[rodderick]

Nah that's an incorrect call. Would be STUNNED if the NFL supported this.

Are you talking Henry or Brown?

 

[CFB_Rules]

Are you talking Henry or Brown?

Henry, can't really see the whole action with Brown but don't see anything in the clip that stands out. That's the first clip I've seen of the Henry block.

 

[CFB_Rules]

Note that even if the official just reported the wrong number but the number they meant to report actually DID hold it's still a downgrade in the NFL.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

Give me one call that completely changed the game the way the Henry "hold" did. Because that call took at least 3 points off the board and probably 7 and was one of the worst holding calls I have ever seen.

His left hand is literally on the bicep of Ellis pulling him away from the gap, well outside of the pads. Tony Romo drove you guys CooCoo for Coco Puffs by not realizing that that is a textbook hold. You can't hook guys.

As for calls that were equivalent? How about the 736 non holds for the interior of the Patriot line? The bogus cut block call? The incredibly soft roughing the passer as Mac leans into the DL?

Losing and blaming the refs is pathetic, and sadly on brand here.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

No. I’ll post as I wish and call it as I see it, thank you very much.

Do you feel that you bring any objective value to any conversation on this topic?

 

[Silverdude2167]

His left hand is literally on the bicep of Ellis pulling him away from the gap, well outside of the pads. Tony Romo drove you guys CooCoo for Coco Puffs by not realizing that that is a textbook hold. You can't hook guys.

As for calls that were equivalent? How about the 736 non holds for the interior of the Patriot line? The bogus cut block call? The incredibly soft roughing the passer as Mac leans into the DL?

Losing and blaming the refs is pathetic, and sadly on brand here.

Wow you care alot about how a fan base is responding to a loss in a thread trying to find positives for their team.

Why are you even posting in this thread? Afaird that your team almost lost to a team that this board thought would win less than 7 games this season?

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

Henry, can't really see the whole action with Brown but don't see anything in the clip that stands out. That's the first clip I've seen of the Henry block.

Left hand hooks. He didn't get his hip to the proper point for the reach block and then he pulls him.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

Wow you care alot about how a fan base is responding to a loss in a thread trying to find positives for their team.

Why are you even posting in this thread? Afaird that your team almost lost to a team that this board thought would win less than 7 games this season?

I am not worried about anything, we won in week 1 on the road. I am posting because I enjoy talking about sports and don't particularly like bullshit.

 

[Over Guapo Grande]

The bogus cut block call? The incredibly soft roughing the passer as Mac leans into the DL?

Those were called consistent. It doesn't matter if you trip/slip/whatever. You can't go low. The aim of the rule, as I understand it, is to take intent out of the hands of the officials. Blame the rules committee, maybe, but would you want a D Lineman to "trip" into Hurts's knee with no flag?

 

[Deathofthebambino]

I've said it repeatedly over the years.

All I want from refs in the NFL (or any sport for that matter) is consistency. If that's a hold on Henry, I want to see flags on every play.

I mean, if that's the definition of a hold, I made it literally one second into a 12 minute video of game highlights before I found #68 holding Judon down the field early in the game in a way, way more clear manner:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EdHsmEO-Sk



For me personally, I'm not throwing the flag on either play. That's the problem when these calls happen. It's the inconsistency. If you want to call it that tight, call it that tight. But don't start throwing flags in key moments of a game that you haven't thrown all day long.

 

[cshea]

I don't know how the cut block was bogus. Intentional or not, dude went low into a guy already engaged with another player.

 

[joe dokes]

The bogus cut block call?

I'm curious about this. Does the fact that the guy may not have intentionally dived at the DL's legs matter? (And since Romo suggested it did matter, I'm inclined to think it did not.)

 

[Dogman]

The same with the roughing the passer call. Intentional or not, a player cannot make contact at or below the knee of the QB. That's called 100/100.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

This was interesting:
https://twitter.com/ezlazar/status/1701285386058654066?s=20
Evan Lazar: Jabrill Peppers playing centerfield in the #Patriots cover-1 defense.

I had thought Peppers was more of a box safety, but he does the job here.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

I don't know how the cut block was bogus. Intentional or not, dude went low into a guy already engaged with another player.

I think the argument against on that play was that the lineman tripped over his own guy and stumbled into him. I have no idea if the rule allows for an exception there or not, but that was the argument.

 

[Dogman]

I hated the Henry call. Hated it.

Good position, hands up contact without grabbing. Hell, the call could have been hands to the face on the defender.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

I'm curious about this. Does the fact that the guy may not have intentionally dived at the DL's legs matter? (And since Romo suggested it did matter, I'm inclined to think it did not.)

My understanding of the cut block call is that the guy has to make an intentional move, he can't just fall into the shins. With that said, this is one of those player safety calls that I would always prefer to have OVER called than undercalled, so while I was pissed off in the moment, I am fine with it in the big picture and would have been even if they had lost. .

 

[Over Guapo Grande]

Back to silver linings, I had texted my brother during the 4th quarter of the Bungles game that it was pretty much how I saw that Pats game unfolding.

And after 10 minutes, I thought it may have been optimistic.

I loved how they didn't throw in the towel.*
I loved how they had a plan on how to move the ball. **
I loved how (for the most part), plays got in quickly, giving Mac 10+ seconds at the LOS. ***
I loved how they targetted almost everyone who as an eligible receiver.

* maybe last year they would have made it a game, LV Raiders comes to mind. But it wasn't "out of control" so quickly last year...

** They found something , and generally stuck with it. A few head scratching plays, but not a full series of them
*** One bad delay of game

 

[cshea]

I think the argument against on that play was that the lineman tripped over his own guy and stumbled into him. I have no idea if the rule allows for an exception there or not, but that was the argument.

There doesn't seem to be any intent provisions in the rule.

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/chop-block/#:~:text=ARTICLE 5.-,CHOP BLOCK,defensive player above the waist.

Edit: Also note that people are calling it a cut block but the NFL defines it as a chop block. A cut block is out in the open field like a lineman blocking downfield on a screen, they can't go low on a defender any more. Thought I would note that distinction.

 

[Dogman]

Penalties happen every game. The Patriots need to limit penalties and turnovers and play like we did in Q2-Q4 and we should be a pretty decent team.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

Those were called consistent. It doesn't matter if you trip/slip/whatever. You can't go low. The aim of the rule, as I understand it, is to take intent out of the hands of the officials. Blame the rules committee, maybe, but would you want a D Lineman to "trip" into Hurts's knee with no flag?

In the case of the call for hitting the QB low, no, I don't want to see any player get hurt (except for Tyreek Hill). In the moment I felt that Jones could have easily remained standing against the very small amount of pressure, but fell to get the call. But to your point, while I thought it was a soft as shit call, the rule itself is right and the application was probably correct as well.

 

[Over Guapo Grande]

In the case of the call for hitting the QB low, no, I don't want to see any player get hurt (except for Tyreek Hill). In the moment I felt that Jones could have easily remained standing against the very small amount of pressure, but fell to get the call. But to your point, while I thought it was a soft as shit call, the rule itself is right and the application was probably correct as well.

And to be fair, I would have felt the same if the uniforms were reversed. I would have been yelling at the TV "what is he supposed to do?" , but only half-heartedly.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

There doesn't seem to be any intent provisions in the rule.

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/chop-block/#:~:text=ARTICLE 5.-,CHOP BLOCK,defensive player above the waist.

Edit: Also note that people are calling it a cut block but the NFL defines it as a chop block. A cut block is out in the open field like a lineman blocking downfield on a screen, they can't go low on a defender any more. Thought I would note that distinction.

The intent comes in where it is described as a block. If someone slips and falls, in that moment they are not blocking.....unless they make a clear move during that fall to try and make a block. It's one of those weird football things. As I said up thread, this is a player safety issue and it wouldn't be obvious in the moment in most cases.

 

[rslm]

I think it's important to also recognize that Josh Jobe made a heads-up football play by pushing Boutte out so as to make it harder for him to get the foot down. He succeeded, and thus we turned the ball over on downs.

I have no disagreement with this. On the earlier one I commented “you’re not in college anymore”. I didn’t feel that way on the later one, but I do “wonder” if that’s something pro-receivers get better at with more experience.

 

[Average Game James]

Despite some critical mistakes, Mac arguably outplayed the reigning MVP runner-up who played in the Super Bowl last year and has a supporting cast almost universally better than their counterparts on the Patriots. So if Mac still sucks, then the defense is going to be something special.

 

[Pandemonium67]

The distinction is usually if the defender turns the offensive player, is it not? And no one on the Iggles complained in real time, which was pretty telling.

I also thought CG had the arm around him at first for a monent but then pulled it away. Thus it didn't appear overly egregious.

Not sure if this was in the ref's mind, but if he called that penalty, the game was over. If he saw it as a 50-50 situation, it would make sense to let it slide.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

I also thought CG had the arm around him at first for a monent but then pulled it away. Thus it didn't appear overly egregious.

Not sure if this was in the ref's mind, but if he called that penalty, the game was over. If he saw it as a 50-50 situation, it would make sense to let it slide.

Similar pass defenses leading up to that play for both sides had not been called, so it was hard to clutch pearls on that one.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

Edit: Also note that people are calling it a cut block but the NFL defines it as a chop block. A cut block is out in the open field like a lineman blocking downfield on a screen, they can't go low on a defender any more. Thought I would note that distinction.

A chop block is a cut block when the defender is already engaged with a blocker. Calling a chop block a cut block is reasonable, but calling all cut blocks a chop block is not reasonable.

Outside of the tackle box, these blocks become crackback blocks, which are a form of.....yada yada yada.

I have been coaching O-linemen for about 10 years now and I hate teaching cut blocks. I get that lots of schools use them in certain situations, and they can be effective for smaller RBs et al to take down a DT, but they still strike me as a dangerous play for both players (not when done properly, but very few kids follow the proper technique in the heat of a game) and I can't stand them.

 

[BaseballJones]

Do you feel that you bring any objective value to any conversation on this topic?

Yes. Thanks for asking.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

Yes. Thanks for asking.

Oh. Wow. Awkward.

 

[BaseballJones]

Oh. Wow. Awkward.

Not for me. Not sure why it would be for you either or why you even care. But hey, whatever, man.

 

[CFB_Rules]

A chop block is a cut block when the defender is already engaged with a blocker. Calling a chop block a cut block is reasonable, but calling all cut blocks a chop block is not reasonable.

Outside of the tackle box, these blocks become crackback blocks, which are a form of.....yada yada yada.

I have been coaching O-linemen for about 10 years now and I hate teaching cut blocks. I get that lots of schools use them in certain situations, and they can be effective for smaller RBs et al to take down a DT, but they still strike me as a dangerous play for both players (not when done properly, but very few kids follow the proper technique in the heat of a game) and I can't stand them.

Don’t worry you won’t have to coach them for long, they’re basically illegal in high school now (only legal by lineman and only if it’s their very first move after the snap) and will be in the NCAA in the next 5-10 years.

 

[Dogman]

Do you feel that you bring any objective value to any conversation on this topic?

Oh. Wow. Awkward.

This isn't happening here.

Thanks.