Game 1 Philly, goats
- Thread starter Eddie Jurak
- Start date
10-7 likely makes the playoffs when all.ks said and done. I think they might be there. I doubt they're a title contender this year-they need more talent to do that
I honestly hate the debate about Mac. HATE. IT.
A C-? Other than the pick six what exactly did he do to warrant a grade that would make me send my kid to bed without dinner? Did he make Zeke fumble deep in their own zone? Did he force Bourne to drop the perfectly thrown ball to kill the late drive? Did he make Henry drop that (completely catchable) pass that turned the ball over? Did he force Boutte to forget you need both feet inbounds?
The Patriots may have come up short many times during the Mac era. They came up short tonight. But I honestly don’t know how you can say Mac has some bad Juju and it was his fault his teammates dropped or fumbled those balls.
After he has a solid rookie year people go “Oh a better QB would’ve found a way to play better in the playoffs.”
Then when things go sideways with his offensive coaches people say “Oh a better QB would’ve overcome bad coaching and dealt with poor protection.”
Now, after an offseason when everyone wondered whether he had it in him to lead the team he throws three TDs against the reigning Super bowl loser and people move the goalposts yet again to say, “Well, a great quarterback would’ve found a way to win that game.”
Jesus fucking Christ.
A C-? Other than the pick six what exactly did he do to warrant a grade that would make me send my kid to bed without dinner? Did he make Zeke fumble deep in their own zone? Did he force Bourne to drop the perfectly thrown ball to kill the late drive? Did he make Henry drop that (completely catchable) pass that turned the ball over? Did he force Boutte to forget you need both feet inbounds?
The Patriots may have come up short many times during the Mac era. They came up short tonight. But I honestly don’t know how you can say Mac has some bad Juju and it was his fault his teammates dropped or fumbled those balls.
After he has a solid rookie year people go “Oh a better QB would’ve found a way to play better in the playoffs.”
Then when things go sideways with his offensive coaches people say “Oh a better QB would’ve overcome bad coaching and dealt with poor protection.”
Now, after an offseason when everyone wondered whether he had it in him to lead the team he throws three TDs against the reigning Super bowl loser and people move the goalposts yet again to say, “Well, a great quarterback would’ve found a way to win that game.”
Jesus fucking Christ.
13 completions to his backs, isn't that exactly the problem? They had zero down field game. You're not making the points you think you are
I'm making the exact points I'm trying to make. I'm sorry you don't understand them.
But let's start here, who are their "downfield" receivers that played today?
If the defense is consistently dropping safeties, you want them start chucking downfield to a group of mostly possession receivers?
I mean, does it really not even cross your mind that with a makeshift offensive line, against a very good defensive front, the game plan focused on quick passes and screens? Or do you instead just assume it's all about masking your perceived deficiencies of Mac?
Did you read this article that I posted earlier in the thread, written by Lazar in January?
I'll post some snippets in case it's too long:
https://www.patriots.com/news/analysis-what-will-the-patriots-offense-look-like-with-bill-o-brien-returning
First, New England will thankfully get away from attacking the deep part of the field out of their shotgun formations as they did last year and return to winning in the middle of the field. For years, the Pats offense has dominated between the numbers. Under Patricia, they wanted to unlock more vertical elements in the passing game, but the results were inconsistent.
O'Brien unlocks his timing-based passing system by playing the matchups and attacking space he knows will present itself based on the defenses coverage, bringing us to the second tenet: tempo.
The Patriots new offensive coordinators create easy wins for his receivers by exposing matchups, attacking leverage, and putting middle-of-the-field zone players in conflict. For the quarterback, it allows for quick decisions to the short and intermediate level while still allowing the quarterback to hunt matchups on the outside if he likes what he sees before the snap.
brady was a massive factor in that imo: He seldom made mistakes himself and gave them the cap room to keep and acquire smart veteran players
If Mac grades as a C- today, the only quarterbacks that have played thus far in Week One that don't deserve a D or worse are Mac, Tua, Purdy, Love, Stafford and maybe Trevor Lawrence, because every other quarterback, every single one, played a significantly worse game than Mac did.
I can't tell if folks have become entitled, or just delusional.
I think l people literally don’t watch a lot of the game. Mac went down the field a fair amount! He handled pretty strong pressure well! If Boutte toe taps little more on that last one good chance the Pats won the Fucking game! The eagles defense is like really fucking good!
While I agree, outside of it sucked in game he didn't get the feet down on both catches, in the grand scheme I'm not worried about the lack of awareness. It was his first NFL game, playing against all NFL players going all out all the time. He was probably so concentrated on just making the catch that he didn't think about his feet, and mainly because he never has had to, there is no muscle memory there. I think the fact that he made tough sideline catches is much more promising, and he'll learn to drag the toe.
Probably nobody is the right answer given how close they came to winning against a top team but if I had to pick....
1. O-line, yes a bunch of injuries but they struggled in the run game badly, and weren't great in pass pro.
2. Mac Jones, finished pretty well, but he put them in a hole early with all around terrible play, and he still seems limited, there are throws he just can't make and working around it is tough.
1. O-line, yes a bunch of injuries but they struggled in the run game badly, and weren't great in pass pro.
2. Mac Jones, finished pretty well, but he put them in a hole early with all around terrible play, and he still seems limited, there are throws he just can't make and working around it is tough.
Both? But something Brady showed/taught this fanbase was what it really took to consistently win, and pull out those games that seemed hopeless. Mac makes good throws, bad throws, whatever...the coaching staff is there to analyze that to death. (And 99.9% of us are not qualified to do so.) What we see is a guy that can't quite put the team on his back and make the play when it matters most.
I graded Mac down because the first quarter happened, and he missed some throws that the team needed him to hit. Unlike others, I am willing to acknowledge that Mac did throw a nice deep ball at times and used all of the receivers at his disposal.
So far this weekend, if we rank the QB's by the flawed passer rating stat, Mac is tied for 13th w/ Stafford:
Love: 123.2
Ridder: 111.8 (only 18 attempts)
Purdy: 111.3
Tua: 110.0
Wilson: 108.0
Jimmy G: 107.9
Lawrence: 103.8
Cousins: 102.8
Herbert: 99.1
Carr: 96.1
Mayfield: 94.4
Goff: 94.1
Mac: 91.3
Stafford: 91.3
Hurts: 89.2
Geno Smith: 84.1
Jackson: 79.5
Richardson: 79.0
Dobbs: 78.8
Fields: 78.2
Stroud: 78.0
Howell: 77.6
Mahomes: 77.5
Dak: 72.0
Pickett: 68.4
Watson: 67.3
Burrow: 52.2
Young: 48.8
Tannehill: 28.8
Daniel Jones: 0.0 (In progress)
Or the even more flawed QBR black box, he's 15th (could go to 16 after Dallas wins):
Purdy: 91.3
Stafford: 88.9
Tua: 87.8
Jimmy G: 83.5
Wilson: 74.8
Love: 73.5
Mahomes: 70.6
Watson: 65.9
Lawrence: 64.8
Carr: 62.7
Goff: 62.1
Mayfield: 61.8
Cousins: 55.0
Herbert: 51.1
Mac: 49.1
Howell: 45.6
Geno Smith: 44.6
Hurts: 36.4
Ridder: 29.0
Pickett: 23.9
Richardson: 23.5
Fields: 21.7
Dobbs: 21.7
Stroud: 21.3
Burrow: 20.4
Young: 14.6
Jackson: 13.7
Tannehill: 10.3
Daniel Jones: 0.0 (In progress)
So, he was basically middle of the pack by the basic numbers. Probably ends up there in the more advanced metrics when all is said and done. You could probably quibble with some of the others ahead of him (DeShaun Watson's performance was seriously overrated by QBR, for example). By throwing 54 passes, Mac was asked to do a lot more than some of the other QB's ahead of him. The interception hurts him, as it should, as it was a bad mistake. But, yes, there was some bad QB play this past weekend.
Anyway, I can take this one as a moral victory. But they don't have room for any others given the schedule, and any good feelings from this one will be erased if they start the season an unacceptable 0-4.
It’s unfortunate how it went down but if you said before the game the Pats would lose by one possession and have a chance to win at the end I think everyone would take that against the Eagles. Much better than what some ostensibly better teams showed up with today.
I'm on record for holding a very low opinion of Mac. I think his footwork and scrambling in the pocket is an abomination, I find his on-field demeanor when facing adversity disconcerting, and consider the subpar offensive efficiency (points per drive) in games he has started after his rookie year to be overwhelmingly his fault.
That being said, I was actually encouraged by what I saw from him today. When he trusted his offensive line (easier to do when Adrian Klemm is the OL coach), kept his eyes downfield and stepped into his throws, mostly good things happened. After an abysmal start, he rebounded to throw 3 TD's and actually looked like a bona fide NFL starting QB. He made outstanding 3rd and long and 4th and long throws to Boutte that would have changed the complexion of the game.
If Bill O'Brien can convince him to keep his eyes downfield while slide-stepping in the pocket instead of trying to play like Fran Tarkenton (which he can't because he's an ostensibly-athletic guy who lumbers in the pocket), Mac can be a top 15 NFL QB. And I think the Patriots can win 8+ games with that kind of play.
Mac, please watch tape of Brady in the pocket endlessly. Stop channeling your inner Tony Eason.
That being said, I was actually encouraged by what I saw from him today. When he trusted his offensive line (easier to do when Adrian Klemm is the OL coach), kept his eyes downfield and stepped into his throws, mostly good things happened. After an abysmal start, he rebounded to throw 3 TD's and actually looked like a bona fide NFL starting QB. He made outstanding 3rd and long and 4th and long throws to Boutte that would have changed the complexion of the game.
If Bill O'Brien can convince him to keep his eyes downfield while slide-stepping in the pocket instead of trying to play like Fran Tarkenton (which he can't because he's an ostensibly-athletic guy who lumbers in the pocket), Mac can be a top 15 NFL QB. And I think the Patriots can win 8+ games with that kind of play.
Mac, please watch tape of Brady in the pocket endlessly. Stop channeling your inner Tony Eason.
I think the 2pt conversion would have put them down 3.
And there was a hideous holding call on Hunter Henry that negated another promising drive deep in Philly territory.
As a card-carrying member of the Bailey Zappe fan club last year, I've definitely been in the anti-Mac camp. Last year, I didn't think Mac should have started a game after the Bears loss. And I'm still not completely sold on him as the long-term answer at QB.
But, in the spirit of fairness, I think it's worthwhile for me to look at his game stats as if Zappe played QB.
The offensive efficiency in Mac's first start of 2023 was poor at 1.54 (20 points over 13 possessions). But if Mac were Zappe, I'd have adjusted his offensive efficiency to 2.92, which is frankly outstanding against a ferocious Philly front 4. After a miserable start to the game, he rebounded in a big way and should have been rewarded with at least 30 points on the scoreboard (with a lead, they probably wouldn't have gone for 2 on the 11th drive and they may have just run out the clock if they had a lead on the 13th drive).
Furthermore, Zappe's (er, I mean Mac's) passing stats and YPA shouldn't be evaluated without taking into account the lost yards from 3 choke jobs from his receivers that cost him 53 passing yards. So, his final passing line would have been 38/54 (70% completion pct), 369 passing yds and at least 3 passing TD's and 1 costly pick. 369 passing yards in 54 passing attempts isn't otherwordly (6.8 YPA), but let's consider that a lot of attempts were made with the Philly defense knowing that the Patriots had to throw.
Mac took the blame for the loss today, but, despite the horrid start to the game, the loss shouldn't be on him. His rebound and ultimate performance deserves my respect. And I don't even like the guy.
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If this team starts 0-3 or 0-4 you're damn right we're looking to Mac. In what universe are we losing game after game and not blaming the QB in today's NFL?
Game goats are the costly mistakes made by guys like Boutte, Bourne, Elliott, etc and the OL. Mac had 2-3 bleh drives but the rest were good to great. I don't know why you would put the burden on his feet. He actually made plays on the run. His pocket presence was good.
It's funny for me to go from the conversation in the slack and in the discord vs here re: Mac. A lot of us are pretty savage too when it comes to Mac and his abilities or lack-of. That includes me. He actually looked good today. The offense looks good. BoB is going to keep us in it - and btw BoB's offense puts a TON on the QB in terms to plays and adjustments.
The turnovers were flukey. How many times would that throw on target in that situation go for a pick-six. Probably 1 in 1,000? Usually pick sixes that bounce off the hands are a little off.
I was encouraged by the offense today. Get your starters back and let's roll. Also... this defense is legit and they did it against a running QB.
White is my dude.
Pocket passers can still win today. If this offense plays like they did today but tightens it up on turnovers and making catches then they are cooking with gas. If they continue to make timely mistakes then the season is going to suck.
It's funny for me to go from the conversation in the slack and in the discord vs here re: Mac. A lot of us are pretty savage too when it comes to Mac and his abilities or lack-of. That includes me. He actually looked good today. The offense looks good. BoB is going to keep us in it - and btw BoB's offense puts a TON on the QB in terms to plays and adjustments.
The turnovers were flukey. How many times would that throw on target in that situation go for a pick-six. Probably 1 in 1,000? Usually pick sixes that bounce off the hands are a little off.
I was encouraged by the offense today. Get your starters back and let's roll. Also... this defense is legit and they did it against a running QB.
White is my dude.
Pocket passers can still win today. If this offense plays like they did today but tightens it up on turnovers and making catches then they are cooking with gas. If they continue to make timely mistakes then the season is going to suck.
Entitled as fuck. We watched the best ever for 20 years and even before that we had 7 years of pretty good. Getting used to mediocre qb play is brutal.
Mac is never going to be a world beater. His upside is guy who can win on a talented team with a great D. He may never get there. And he may settle into being a below average qb, but the idea of moving on with some other shlub or tanking so we get a high pick and may end up with the next Trey Lance, kyler Murray, Josh Rosen, etc is dumb. Play with what you’ve got, if there’s an opportunity to pick someone better, donut then.
I think the reaction to that Bourne play has been ridiculously overblown. You'd think he was wide open and not having to dive into a defender for the ball. That's not a routine catch to make, had he made it, that'd be a great play. It's funny how people complain about expectations for Mac being absurd and then they turn around to demand people around him make every single play.
I think Mac's inaccuracy early is what led to the pick 6 and the Zeke fumble. For a quarterback with the physical limitations Mac has, he can't afford to be missing open receivers.
I do think there were positives from Mac today, but those were offset by the hole he dug early and the inability to fully climb out of it late.
If we’re going to start blaming QBs for fumbles by receivers, it’s going to be a long century.
Zeke obviously should have held onto the ball, but the fact that Mac put the ball high and behind him made it so he had to spin around for the catch and when he turned to face the field he was already on the lineman that poked the ball out. It's not Mac's fault that he fumbled, but I think it's fair to say the placement of the pass had something to do with it. I don't think there's any chance he coughs it up if he receives the pass in front, or in a position to actually see the defenders around him.
The pass was a shitty pass but once a receiver catches a ball there is no responsibility on the QB for hall security. Mac can have a minus for the play while still having nothing to do with the fumble.
In addition to what @rodderick said, it was 3 straight passes from Mac that missed high. An incompletion, the tip/pick 6, and the Zeke fumble. I don't think a QB of Mac's talent level can afford that, as today showed.
I think this is 6 of one, half dozen of another. I'm not claiming Mac fumbled.
I think the fact that Zeke didn't see the defender that caused the fumble had a lot to do with it being a turnover, and the poor pass is what made it so he couldn't see the defender. Of course, the blame lies on Zeke, but plays happen within a context, and I think the throw had a contribution there as well.
The pick six yes. The Zeke fumble? No way. It wasn’t a great throw but good enough for Zeke to make a nice catch, secure the ball, turn upfield, start running, and make a move before the ball got knocked out. In no world is that fumble on Mac.
This is like blaming a blocker for a fumble because they let the defender get too close to the runner instead of winning their assignment. And if we’re going to blame the blocker for a fumble, then isn’t the whole offensive line system to blame? And if the offensive line system is to blame, then isn’t it an indictment of the coaching staff as a whole, led by Bill Belichick and his foundational years at the US Naval Academy, implying that the United States educational system is at fault, and the country liable for this? Well I’m not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Gentlemen!
First quarter was atrocious. 2-4 was very encouraging. I'm walking out of this game with a better outlook on the season than when ai walked in.
Each quarter counts and we can’t take away the bad play in the first. But it seemed like a few minutes in the Pats were down 16-0, looking every bit like the worst team in football.
From there they totally dominated the game.
First 11 min:
Points: Phi 16, NE 0
Yards: Phi 87, NE 34
First Downs: Phi 7, NE 2
TO: Phi 0, NE 2
Last 49 min:
Points: Phi 9, NE 20
Yards: Phi 164, NE 348
First Downs: Phi 10, NE 22
TO: Phi 1, NE 0
From there they totally dominated the game.
First 11 min:
Points: Phi 16, NE 0
Yards: Phi 87, NE 34
First Downs: Phi 7, NE 2
TO: Phi 0, NE 2
Last 49 min:
Points: Phi 9, NE 20
Yards: Phi 164, NE 348
First Downs: Phi 10, NE 22
TO: Phi 1, NE 0
I'm falling into this trap too. Problem is, we only get 17 bites at the apple, and when you actually have a good chance to win at the end, you need to close it. This team perpetually seems to put itself in a hole and almost dig out, but can't quite get there.
Can I get a pass out of the “entitled” conversation? Because it’s the fucking worst.
And I had the pleasure of watching QBs like Tommy Hodson, Marc Wilson and Hugh Millen. I’ve suffered enough.
And I had the pleasure of watching QBs like Tommy Hodson, Marc Wilson and Hugh Millen. I’ve suffered enough.
I've seen plenty of "Henry bailed out Mac!" in here, but there were also at LEAST half a dozen balls that were dropped. Henry dropped a 16 yarder to his chest after he bailed out Mac. Juju dropped a wide open first down throw. Bourne dropped a few early. Boutte had his issues.
Macs throws were sailing high, but any "bailouts" the skill players gave him were equally countered by drops.
I felt like Mac showed more promise this game then he did the entirety of last season.
Mac is still on a rookie deal and is getting paid less than Brady was for pretty much his whole time in New England save maybe his first two years. Also, Brady may have been more responsible than we thought for the way the Pats played disciplined football during much of his time here, but I refuse to believe that the difference between Mac Jones and Brady is what caused a veteran like Dietrich Wise to line up like two feet offsides, among other bone headed plays they made yesterday.
They've been making stupid mistakes in close games against good teams for three years now. And it is killing them, and they can't fix it.
Edit: just to be clear, I'm not a Mac guy and didn't think he played all that well yesterday. I'm not blaming him, though. Maybe it was just that having Brady caused us to forget the stupid shit the team did, I don't know. This was the best coached team in football for two decades who rarely beat themselves, and I used to laugh at fans who thought there was some league conspiracy instead of just seeing the obvious, that the Pats were better than any other team in football at eliminating and/or minimizing stupid plays and letting the other team beat themselves. For the last 2+ seasons, at least against good teams, we are the ones making the killer mistakes that we cannot overcome. I don't have answers I'm just perplexed.
Fully agreed on Mac showing more promise this game.
Also, to respond to some of the criticism about his Y/A: the reasons for Mac’s lower Y/A is in part due to drops and in part due to them using the pass game in substitute for the run game.
it's almost like they missed a set of joint practices and didn't play at all in the preseason in a game and then looked like shit when the lights went on for a quarter. I really wish teams would go back to at least playing starters together in a preseason game for a half.
I hate to use the term moral victory, but like you I'm pretty happy with how they looked and they have a path to compete this year.
The 2 big mistakes were Mac's throw that led to the pick-6 and Zeke's fumble. The neutral zone infraction was pretty bad but is the kind of thing that happens across the league in Week 1. Boutte's failing to keep his feet inbounds seems like a classic case of jitters for a rookie playing in his first NFL game. Still not sure how was at fault on the pass to Boutte in the end zone (Boutte or Mac), although Boutte did at least work to prevent the interception. And the team was victimized by one egregiously bad holding call and 2 others that were ticky-tack and were given to Philly's offense all day.