Red Sox have an axe to grind against Iglesias, per Felger.
If anyone knows about having an axe to grind against someone, it's him.
If anyone knows about having an axe to grind against someone, it's him.
Felger and Mazz - Creating False Naratives one day at a time
- Thread starter HomeBrew1901
- Start date
"It's a little unfair to bring up Peavy's postseason numbers since they were a lifetime ago....."
But we'll do it anyways.
But we'll do it anyways.
Corsi said:
They are so consistently incompetent about talking baseball I am convinced they are simply out there to contradict whatever direction the Sox are going. If it was just ignorance or disinterest, I'd think they'd still stumble on a positive take once in a while. There's a world of difference between the entire station's approach to the Celtics and Sox as compared to the Pats and Bs that I do not think it a coincidence. Not necessarily in terms of being cheerleaders but in terms of the depth and quality of the discourse.
I tuned in 1 minute ago and Mazz and Felger are just mocking Peavy mercilessly. They are going back and forth making jokes like they are Abbott and Costello. Wiggin's is trying to be the reasonable one...
Click!
Click!
I have nothing else to watch because cable is not in my office. So I'm listening to this abomination of a Felger and Mazz show. This is as bad as I've ever heard.
Now Felger ripped Bradford and Speier for their analysis of the deal. Wow.
Edit: Mazz calls the AL Central crap lineups after saying how good Detroit has been all day.
Felger talks about Stanton like he's available and the Red Sox could fill a need in their lineup with him.
Edit: Mazz calls the AL Central crap lineups after saying how good Detroit has been all day.
Felger talks about Stanton like he's available and the Red Sox could fill a need in their lineup with him.
They're both in agreement that Detroit won the deal. Of course, neither of them has ever heard of Avisail Garcia, so why bother including him in the analysis.
It's days like this I'm glad you guys are listening so I don't have too. Sounds like a train wreck.
edit: It's also days like this that seem to show why Felger needs a stronger foil. I don't have an issue with either or both of them wanting to keep Inglesias or not wanting Peavy, at the very start of the show Felger started to lay out his case where I could see his rationale but it sounds like it has completely devolved since then.
edit: It's also days like this that seem to show why Felger needs a stronger foil. I don't have an issue with either or both of them wanting to keep Inglesias or not wanting Peavy, at the very start of the show Felger started to lay out his case where I could see his rationale but it sounds like it has completely devolved since then.
RedOctober3829 said:
Like many of you I turned it off quick today. My favorite part is how they are convinced Iggy could've brought us a solid bullpen arm, or as part of a package. Like he's still this hot prospect with teams blowing up their phones DIEING to take him and we settled on Peavy.
Felger just asked Mazz about the prospect Detroit gave up, calling Garcia a "pretty serious one." Mazz: "Honestly? Anything not related to the Red Sox, I didn't care about." But still says he loves what Detroit did.
Oh man. Awful.
Oh man. Awful.
Corsi said:
Why should they have heard of him? Their listeners haven't and wouldn't care anyway. Taking 10 minutes to do some research on Avisail Garcia does not help you get ratings. Now, if you actually cared one iota about being an informed human being wrt the topics you're discussing, you would do that. You would do it even if you're not being paid for it, if you just liked baseball.
Information is not a prerequisite for an opinion. This is rule 1 in Mike Felger's Guide to Becoming Rich and Obnoxious.
Just turned on Felger & Mazz in time to hear Massarotti going into one of his helium-tinged rants about how horrible it was for the Red Sox to trade for Peavy because he's a starter. It's like he completely doesn't understand that the bullpen will be bolstered by Workman. Yes, Peavy isn't the pitcher he once was, but Buchholz is still out.
Mazz claims to be objective, but he's overselling the outrage. It's annoying and uninteresting. If feel like I'm listening to Alvin of the chipmunks with roid rage.
Mazz claims to be objective, but he's overselling the outrage. It's annoying and uninteresting. If feel like I'm listening to Alvin of the chipmunks with roid rage.
Admittedly I don't watch more than 10 minutes of this show at a given time, but do they ever have guests? I don't care if F&M agree on every single topic, why can't they bring on someone from the outside to challenge them? Buster Olney called this a great deal, is he a Red Sox suck-up too? Or how about one of the dozens of other baseball analysts they could have on to educate-err, I mean engage them in discussion? It's so embarrassing. We're gonna hammer our narratives and talking points into the ground 4 hours a day, 5 days a week and that's all we care about. You couldn't fit their egos inside Gilette Stadium right now.
Mazz: "People are in love with Peavey's name. That's it. The name. All the trade lovers are tickling their bums with a feather over the fact that the Sox got Peavey. It's awful. Great... you gooched yourself. 'WE GOT PEAVEY! WOO HOO! '... it's totally annoying. Nobody realizes that the Red Sox did not get appreciably better with this trade, and did not address their main area of concern, the bullpen."
Radio trolling at its worst.
Radio trolling at its worst.
Thank God I can get reasonable sports discussion from Toucher and Rich (which says enough since it's only a portion of their show). They're the only ones who don't seem to take these transparent contrarian takes. Unsurprisingly, they also have the best ratings. I don't understand how people think it's good radio to just jump on every contrarian point you can find, it's just as boring and predictable as having no opinion like Ordway did.
Mike from Attleboro is the voice of reason on the trade.
I think I'll blow off the rear half of my head with a shotgun now, Hemingway-style.
I think I'll blow off the rear half of my head with a shotgun now, Hemingway-style.
It astounds me to think this show was at any point listenable in the history of the show.
I know it was because I was listening to and enjoying it... but man, since Ordway's ship sunk (and honestly, even before that), this has been a truly WRETCHED program.
I know it was because I was listening to and enjoying it... but man, since Ordway's ship sunk (and honestly, even before that), this has been a truly WRETCHED program.
If that wasn't the worst show they've had, it was right there. I didn't turn it off, but only because i wanted to hear what ridiculous statements came next. But hey, whatever they're doing is clearly working, so more power to them.
Wow, that was brutal. They took EV's shitty posts from the Minors thread and talked like him for 4 hours.
JAKE PEAVY ISN"T A BIG GAME PITCHER, HE DIDN'T PITCH WELL IN 2005 IN THE PLAYOFFS
Well he did win a Cy Young the next year.
THAT DOESNT COUNT BECAUSE IT WAS 6 YEARS AGO.
But, his playoff games in his second year do, which was prior to his Cy Young that doesn't count?
IM JUST PROVING HES NOT A BIG GAME PITCHER.
JAKE PEAVY ISN"T A BIG GAME PITCHER, HE DIDN'T PITCH WELL IN 2005 IN THE PLAYOFFS
Well he did win a Cy Young the next year.
THAT DOESNT COUNT BECAUSE IT WAS 6 YEARS AGO.
But, his playoff games in his second year do, which was prior to his Cy Young that doesn't count?
IM JUST PROVING HES NOT A BIG GAME PITCHER.
Here's the reality. Ben in the last 9 month has run circles around everyone, including 99% of the people here. We can take it; Felger and Mazz cannot.
They must be relentlessly contrarian, even when it's stupid. The former WEEI daily fill ins and blogger have ascended the throne of Ordway, but they likely will last not nearly as long as Ordway. And we'll laugh at them because they deserve it. Nature abhors a vacuum. It's only a matter of time.
They must be relentlessly contrarian, even when it's stupid. The former WEEI daily fill ins and blogger have ascended the throne of Ordway, but they likely will last not nearly as long as Ordway. And we'll laugh at them because they deserve it. Nature abhors a vacuum. It's only a matter of time.
I think the most concrete thing I can say about the show at this point is that it just isn't entertaining. It just feels like I'm being tortured.
I haven't followed the Sox, or baseball too closely this season. (or last for that matter) Is Jake Peavy some sort of stud thats going to put the Sox over the top? I've been listening this week and I haven't found it to be all that egregious. They don't seem to like Peavy or more importantly think he's a difference maker............thats really out of bounds?
Whatever. I don't really enjoy when they talk baseball no matter what the subject so I really don't care. I do enjoy most other stuff and its good to listen to in small doses. One thing I've learned about talk radio is that its really horrible if you listen to it for extended periods of time because they just rehash the same stuff over and over during the entirety of the broadcast. Probably because the average listener doesn't listen more than 15 or 20 minutes.
Whatever. I don't really enjoy when they talk baseball no matter what the subject so I really don't care. I do enjoy most other stuff and its good to listen to in small doses. One thing I've learned about talk radio is that its really horrible if you listen to it for extended periods of time because they just rehash the same stuff over and over during the entirety of the broadcast. Probably because the average listener doesn't listen more than 15 or 20 minutes.
Since the start of 2012, Peavy ranks like 12th in the AL in FIP, xFIP, even ERA etc. Ahead of guys like Matt Moore and within half a run of guys like Verlander, Darvish, etc. So yes, they are vastly underrating him because they are stupid.
Mazz is doing exactly what he's accusing everyone else of doing, he's judging Peavy based on the impression he has of him, not reality.
Mazz is doing exactly what he's accusing everyone else of doing, he's judging Peavy based on the impression he has of him, not reality.
The thing is, Felger and Maz would be killing the Sox if they did nothing in the last two days. Killing them. So the Sox get the best player in a depressed trade market (there was what, four moves in the last 48 hours? And there's a pretty big reason for that, but why would you want to discuss that?) selling high on a player that has fallen out of favor with the organization and this is supposed to be a bad thing?
And from when I listened, Mazz wasn't against this trade; he thought that they should have added a bullpen arm. Which, I guess is acceptable, but he keeps ignoring that Workman is going to the pen, which is essentially the same thing. Yet, he glosses over that as if it doesn't matter. In the 5:00 hour a guy named Mike called up and ripped Tony for at least a minute pointing out the hypocrisy of his argument. They let him speak, but Tony didn't say too much after that.
My point is this, you can dislike this trade--it's not a slam dunk but you don't need strawmen to make your point. Like I said, I think that Mazz has a legit point of view about adding a bullpen arm, but Felger wanted them to get this invisible unicorn (Lee, Stanton or another "difference maker") that wasn't there. Would I have liked Stanton? Of course, but where are they going to put him (not to sound like Lou Gorman)? Do you empty your farm system to fix something that isn't a problem, the Sox are number one in runs. That's not a good use of resources. And yes, I would have loved Lee but Amaro wants a king's ransom for a guy who is 35 and has something like +$40M left on his contract. That's not a good use either.
And from when I listened, Mazz wasn't against this trade; he thought that they should have added a bullpen arm. Which, I guess is acceptable, but he keeps ignoring that Workman is going to the pen, which is essentially the same thing. Yet, he glosses over that as if it doesn't matter. In the 5:00 hour a guy named Mike called up and ripped Tony for at least a minute pointing out the hypocrisy of his argument. They let him speak, but Tony didn't say too much after that.
My point is this, you can dislike this trade--it's not a slam dunk but you don't need strawmen to make your point. Like I said, I think that Mazz has a legit point of view about adding a bullpen arm, but Felger wanted them to get this invisible unicorn (Lee, Stanton or another "difference maker") that wasn't there. Would I have liked Stanton? Of course, but where are they going to put him (not to sound like Lou Gorman)? Do you empty your farm system to fix something that isn't a problem, the Sox are number one in runs. That's not a good use of resources. And yes, I would have loved Lee but Amaro wants a king's ransom for a guy who is 35 and has something like +$40M left on his contract. That's not a good use either.
For the past page or so we have been critiquing their lack of intelligent sports talk and debating how much of this was an act to generate controversy. They should remember that it was intelligent, reasonable, interesting sports talk is how the beat WEEI. They cant continue to have days like this or they will fall of their pedestal.
I can kind of deal with Mazz's idiotic rants when he is talking about hockey (about which he has zero clue) or basketball (where he has like, a 25% clue). But when he is willfully dumb about baseball it irritates me, because that is the sport he was paid to write about for years, and he should be capable of holding his own opinion without being a Mike Felger echo monkey and without taking a contrarian view just because.
As well, between the "celebrity" callers, the "hot sports takes", "Wiggy Wednesday, Wiggy Tuesday, Wiggy Thursday, etc.", and the "Final Minute" they are taking on more and more of a Big Show feel.
As well, between the "celebrity" callers, the "hot sports takes", "Wiggy Wednesday, Wiggy Tuesday, Wiggy Thursday, etc.", and the "Final Minute" they are taking on more and more of a Big Show feel.
John Marzano Olympic Hero said:
I think you're right here, but one of the big issues I had with Mazz yesterday was the fact that he was finally called out for selectively searching for "facts" to match his narrative (TM: "I disagree"), and then morphed his position.
He said the Sox needed to address the bullpen the most. When a caller mentioned the Workman scenario (TM: "he hasn't shown the ability to be successful in the bullpen") and blistered Tony with examples of young pitchers starting in the rotation who then evolve into successful bullpen roles (e.g. Papelbon) and added the fact that the Sox added Thornton and Villareal (TM: "I don't pay attention to players on other teams"), Masserotti shat himself with equivocation by clarifying that he really meant a closer. And then proceeded to identify precisely zero candidates/targets. Felger fed him Joe Nathan, and then it turned into why didn't the Sox get Joe Nathan. "I don't have any confidence in the back end of the Sox bullpen...". Shifting sands.
And Felger turned his entire argument into a referendum on the SS position, making it all about the fact that by trading Iglesias the Sox continue to bungle the SS position now and forever (ignoring Drew's perfectly acceptable defense and the availability of Holt, X, Marrero, et al).
They can't even stick to their guns when called out.
"Ten years ago, the media in this town went soft on the Sox when they won. Nobody will challenge the Red Sox front office on anything anymore except for us. I guess that makes us stupid, right Mike?." *chuckle* *knee slap* *guffaw*
Arguably the most annoying thing about Mazz's 2-6 act is that 9 times out of 10 he takes a much more reasoned take on baseball topics during his baseball reporters show that starts at 6. It's just so beyond obvious that he's playing a character during the Felger and Mazz show, and that character is an anti-Redsox kiss-up to Felger clown. It's pathetic, it really is.
John Marzano Olympic Hero said:
This, exactly.
Felger would rather have added an "elite" pitcher to the staff. Well, no fucking shit. They pulled the same crap with the Bruins deadline where they criticize the deal that was made (or in that case was not made) without acknowledging that it takes two teams to make a trade and the Sox (or Bruins) cannot just force any player they want to magically appear on their roster (in the Bruins case, it was that they should have "gone the extra mile" for Iginla, without specifying what that meant). Plus there is no discussion of the fact that if you are a GM and you enter any trade negotiation with the idea that you absolutely must have Player X at any cost, you are going to get bent over in the negotiation.
And you are totally right that they would have absolutely killed the team if they had done nothing, so there is really no way they can win.
I have no issue with either of them not liking the trade. I happen to like it but I don't think it is a slam dunk or anything and you can articulate reasons not to like it. But the reasons they offer up were ridiculous and kept changing, and just made it clear that they were going to hate on the trade no matter what. At one point Felger made a reference to the "rump swabs" in the Sox media who like everything the team does. It is the same thing with their coverage of the Pats, they see themselves as some kind of self-appointed crusaders for truth because the local media who cover both teams are in bed with the Sox/Pats (and Celtics, see the references to the "Green Teamers"). The problem is that this causes them to reflexively hate on almost everything either team does, which is just as stupid and annoying as reflexively liking anything the team does. Plus, I am really not sure this is the case with the media that covers the Sox. The Pats, sure, but I never thought I would see the day when someone would be making the argument that the Boston media takes it easy on the Sox.
I guess this is the formula that they think drives ratings in sports radio and they are killing the awful crap that WEEI is offering up so I guess those of us complaining are in the minority, but I will again say that this is not how the show was when it first started. Felger has always been opinionated but I have also always respected his opinion even when I have disagreed. He's off the rails now and Tony Mazz is simply incapable of calling him on any of it. Just brutal, awful radio. I still listen (although in very small doses now) because the other sports radio option is generally worse, but if WEEI can come up with anything remotely entertaining to put up against F&M I am completely willing to give them a chance at this point.
To be fair he was saying it toungue in cheek in response to his rant about JWH's interest in buying and controlling the Globe.RedOctober3829 said:
He has never been afraid to rip into Speier and Bradford in the past, so this is consistent with his thinking.HomeBrew1901 said:
RedOctober3829 said:
To be fair, Bradford is a Sox kiss-ass. More so than most.
Speier on the other hand, is generally objective but he is also one of the few baseball writers in town that really grasps the advanced metrics. He can look at a move made by the front office and know exactly why they made the move and back it up with valid statistical arguments. He doesn't have to agree with the move or decision, but he can see, understand and explain the reasoning behind it where most other writers can't grasp those kinds of concepts and just shrug their shoulders and say "I don't understand what Cherington is doing so it must be bad/wrong/foolish". To the simple minded like Felger, an article that simply explains the reasoning behind a decision automatically becomes an endorsement of the decision.
smastroyin said:
Ditto Felger and football, which he covered as a beat writer for 10 years. It's not unreasonable to ask for more than *Moss is a team killer* , *BB arrogant*, *Kraft cheap.*
A healthy antidote when the competing station acts like Baghdad Bob for 10 years is less satifying when Baghdad Bob has been sent into exile.
True but there is a difference. In one he is ripping a couple of reporters who he feels are carrying the team's water and joking that Henry owns EEI, in the other scenario Henry actually owns the hometown newspaper.RedOctober3829 said:
I generally enjoy the show, but it's been awful this week. As others have pointed out, F&M are always weakest when there's little going on besides baseball because Felger is so clueless and reflexively contrarian while Tony simply doesn't care. But without Bertrand there to inject a little sanity this week, every Red Sox discussion sounds like it's being conducted by two mildly retarded alcoholics.
Yeah, it's been a year or more coming but I'm done with this show. Felger has always won points with me because he goes about his job with a modicum of dignity (polite to the callers, stays on topic, no right-wing white guy bullshit), but his analysis of this trade is so disastrous and easily refutable it's not even fun to disagree with.
Yesterday was another awful controversy filled day devoid of intelligent discussion. I didnt get to a 2nd commercial break before I tuned out.