Do you think that Chaim Bloom came to Boston with a bad rap?

Bloom's bad rap, did you buy into it and has it changed for you?

  • I bought into it, my POV has not changed at all. (He stinks then and now)

    Votes: 9 4.4%
  • I bought into it, my POV has changed. (I thought he stinks, but I think he's good/ok now)

    Votes: 4 2.0%
  • I didn't buy into it, my POV has not changed at all. (I gave him the BotD* and think he's good/ok)

    Votes: 100 49.3%
  • I didn't buy into it, my POV has changed. (I gave him the BotD* and think he stinks)

    Votes: 90 44.3%

  • Total voters
    203

doctorogres

New Member
Aug 27, 2010
119
But, again, that’s not my point. How much are those Bloom guys driving the overall rankings when they’re mostly A ball players? Nobody is disputing that he’s improved the Red Sox system. But the rankings are in reference to overall strength vs. other systems.

For sake of analysis, I’m stripping out Mayer because he deserves no credit for Mayer. He doesn’t deserve credit for Bello, Casas, or Rafaela either. So, how much are his guys influencing the rankings? My understanding is that it’s mostly driven by the top few since I have no idea how a talent evaluator would differentiate A ball guys.

Thus, I think it’s way too early to give Chaim too much credit with respect to system rankings. In a year, the Dom guys will have graduated and the Chaim guys will have had another full season so we’ll have a much better picture of his development acumen then.
DD would’ve traded several of these guys is kind of the salient point here. But you are right that it’s too early to say if he’s able to sell high and turn prospects into MLB success. I’m hoping for a middle ground between Cherington and DD.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,863
Yup, my mistake.

BSF: As for whether Bloom deserves credit for the guys whom he drafted, or not, if you can't credit Bloom for the guys he drafted who the hell are you crediting?! He gets blamed for a shitty year. He should get credit for a high draft pick and making the best choice. Detroit, Pittsburgh and Texas didn't pick Mayer, Chaim Bloom did. And he has added uy throughout the system, through trades Rule 5 and international signings

You are certainly entitled to your own opinion, just not your own set of facts, and the fact is the Farm system is widely regarded by many baseball experts as drastically improved by Bloom.

Anyway, enough of this, we are just going back and forth at this point: as the french say "Je ne veux pas a enculer les mouches"!
Nobody is disputing that the farm isn’t improved. How many times do I have to make that point before it’ll sink in here? What I’m trying to ascertain is how much credit he deserves at this point when almost all of our top guys, the guys who drive the system wide rankings, are not his.

And taking Mayer at 4 is different from taking him at 1 when there were other options. I don’t accept that was in any way a difficult decision. It was an incredibly easy decision, one of the easiest he’ll make here during his tenure.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,863
DD would’ve traded several of these guys is kind of the salient point here. But you are right that it’s too early to say if he’s able to sell high and turn prospects into MLB success. I’m hoping for a middle ground between Cherington and DD.
I think the confusion here is that I'm only looking at a very narrow scope of analysis. We had a ranking 2-3 years ago of X, it's now Y in 2023. There is a delta of improved rankings. Clearly, Chaim has contributed to that positive delta. That's indisputable. What I'm trying to figure out is how much of the delta is related to Mayer falling in his lap along with Casas/Bello/Rafaela, DD's guys, rising in the MLB Top 100. My hunch is that a good chunk of our improved system ranking is related to those 4. And I don't think a whole lot of skill was involved in taking Mayer after he fell to #4. Sure, give Chaim some credit for closing the deal with Mayer but that was a "Pierce falls to #10" level obvious pick. Just look at the reactions here in the game thread. Once it was apparent that Mayer was falling, everyone was nearly unanimous in their excitement about him being the pick. We all knew.

You are right that a GM like DD probably trades a guy like Bello/Rafaela before their meteoric rise. So, Chaim does deserve credit for holding onto guys and letting them improve their rankings. However, talent evaluators are generally mostly judged based on the guys they bring in and how they do along with trades for prospects.

I think everything is so contentious here about Chaim that people get reflexively defensive. My initial post wasn't intended to be a Chaim criticism, it was intended to be a Chaim reality check on the system rankings. I'm perfectly fine hearing counterpoints to what I'm saying but I'm not creating my own set of facts here. My ultimate point is that I think it's too soon to really judge him, which is why I said we'd know a lot more in 12 months after we see DD's guys graduate from prospect status and Chaim's guys really take hold. I don't think that is too controversial of a take.

I certainly hope, for the sake of this franchise, that 2023 sees Yorke regain his 2021 form, Bleis makes a big impact in A ball, guys like Romero, Anthony, Jordan all continue to do well, etc. We're all rooting for the same thing here.
 

Sox in the sticks

New Member
Apr 9, 2022
11
This is a really great discussion. I didn't vote, because I don't have really strong feelings about Bloom. But reading the thread brings up a question: I wonder how big an adjustment a top executive has to make when he goes from a small-market and small-budget team to a big one. It stands to reason that people at other teams aren't going to deal with you in the same way when you move from Tampa to Boston, or as some have pointed out, from Tampa to the Dodgers. There has to be a change of mindset, but I think it might be bigger than that. When you call another team about a deal from the GM's office in Tampa, the person on the other end of the line knows you don't have a lot of resources. When you call from Boston, New York or Los Angeles, they know that you've got deep pockets and they aren't going to cut you any slack. Same thing with agents, obviously. How can you deal as if you're from a scrappy, low-budget team when everyone knows you're loaded? If anyone has written anything about this, I haven't seen it, and I'd be interested to hear about any writing about the leap that GMs like Friedman and Bloom have made. I just think the adjustment from one place to the other has to be huge.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,863
This is a really great discussion. I didn't vote, because I don't have really strong feelings about Bloom. But reading the thread brings up a question: I wonder how big an adjustment a top executive has to make when he goes from a small-market and small-budget team to a big one. It stands to reason that people at other teams aren't going to deal with you in the same way when you move from Tampa to Boston, or as some have pointed out, from Tampa to the Dodgers. There has to be a change of mindset, but I think it might be bigger than that. When you call another team about a deal from the GM's office in Tampa, the person on the other end of the line knows you don't have a lot of resources. When you call from Boston, New York or Los Angeles, they know that you've got deep pockets and they aren't going to cut you any slack. Same thing with agents, obviously. How can you deal as if you're from a scrappy, low-budget team when everyone knows you're loaded? If anyone has written anything about this, I haven't seen it, and I'd be interested to hear about any writing about the leap that GMs like Friedman and Bloom have made. I just think the adjustment from one place to the other has to be huge.
Not only that but teams dealing with Chaim know he has more pressure on him than a small market GM and that could impact negotiations. We all focus on player adjustment but GM adjustment is probably a real thing as well. Of course, he’s almost 4 years in now so he’s had time to adjust.
 

moondog80

heart is two sizes two small
SoSH Member
Sep 20, 2005
8,415
Bloom gets a bad rap in that many of his critics won't acknowledge how tough a situation he came into. He didn't take over the 108 win World Series champions. He took over an 84 win team with some excellent core players but also with a sky high payroll, some bad contracts, and enough holes that a team with nearly 18 WAR combined from Mookie Betts, Chris Sale, and Eduardo Rodriguez still won only 6 more games than the 2022 Red Sox. As time went on and the holes grew bigger, there was little to nothing in the farm system to cheaply fill them. This was the SoxProspects top 20 at the end of 2019:


Triston Casas
Bryan Mata
Jay Groome
Gilberto Jimenez
Bobby Dalbec
Jarren Duran
Tanner Houck
Noah Song
CJ Chatham
Thaddeus Ward
Ryan Zeferjahn
Aldo Ramirez
Chris Murphy
Matthew Lugo
Nick Decker
Cameron Cannon
Brayan Bello
Antoni Flores
Ceddanne Rafaela
Marcus Wilson

That's it. That's the cost controlled talent the Sox have had to add to their roster for the past 3 years.


This was a hard, hard job. The Angels extended Mike Trout, signed Anthony Rendon to a splashy deal, lucked into the most uniquely valuable player of the last 100 years, and just finished their 7th consecutive sub .500 season. Bloom didn't want to be the Angels. He hasn't been perfect. But given the degree of difficulty, I don't know what approach would have had better results. Keeping the 84 win 2019 Red Sox together would have resulted in $144 million of spending (tax numbers, and that includes the 17.5 figure for Devers) for just seven players -- Devers, Mookie, Sale, Xander, Eovaldi, E-Rod, and Benintendi. With massive long term commitments. And if you want to say "well, I would have kept Mookie but not signed E-Rod and Benny", fine. Tell me how you are going to replace them for less money. And then fill out the rest of the roster for the past three years.
 
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simplicio

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 11, 2012
6,186
Something that may be exacerbating the impatience some feel about Bloom's tenure is that his high draft picks have skewed heavily toward high school kids. The MFY have drafted 1 HS player in their top 5 picks from 2020 on, the Dodgers have 3, Boston has 7. These kids (and his IFA signings of course), especially losing 2020, just haven't had the time to develop yet and show us whether or not Bloom is building successfully.

For me, I think this ownership has made good, smart baseball decisions, generally speaking (there are misses of course), and brought us 4 championships. I give the BOTD to any CBO they hire based on the fact that they've demonstrated an aptitude for this baseball thing. Bloom has had hits and misses with the Boston team; in general I think he's done pretty well at the big league level over a time of wild uncertainty in baseball. But I think the scope of his work is too tied to the future to properly evaluate him yet.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 13, 2021
13,220
Of course, there’s always a lag. Much of the complaining about DD leaving the system bereft of talent was a function of Cherington’s weak drafts, but also not exactly true- as we now gush over Bello, Casas, etc.
 

curly2

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 8, 2003
4,978
This was the SoxProspects top 20 at the end of 2019:


Triston Casas
Bryan Mata
Jay Groome
Gilberto Jimenez
Bobby Dalbec
Jarren Duran
Tanner Houck
Noah Song
CJ Chatham
Thaddeus Ward
Ryan Zeferjahn
Aldo Ramirez
Chris Murphy
Matthew Lugo
Nick Decker
Cameron Cannon
Brayan Bello
Antoni Flores
Ceddanne Rafaela
Marcus Wilson
Since so prospects in all systems wash out, I don't think that's a bad group. Casas will be the starting first baseman in Boston this year and Bello is expected to be in the rotation. Houck has been a major-league contributor and--if not traded to fill another need--should be again this year.

Ward has a shot to stick the whole year with the Nationals and could be a decent pitcher if he regains some velocity as he continues to recover from Tommy John surgery.

Mata has the chance to be a mid-rotation starter or a very good reliever, and is very likely to make the majors this season. Rafaela, Murphy and Lugo are still prospects, Nos. 4, 13 and 14, respectively, on SoxProspects.

Dalbec had a very good finish to 2021, helping the Sox make the playoffs. Duran has made the majors, and can't be completely written off yet. And Ramirez was used in a trade to pick up Schwarber, who was a key addition in 2021.
 

moondog80

heart is two sizes two small
SoSH Member
Sep 20, 2005
8,415
Since so prospects in all systems wash out, I don't think that's a bad group. Casas will be the starting first baseman in Boston this year and Bello is expected to be in the rotation. Houck has been a major-league contributor and--if not traded to fill another need--should be again this year.

Ward has a shot to stick the whole year with the Nationals and could be a decent pitcher if he regains some velocity as he continues to recover from Tommy John surgery.

Mata has the chance to be a mid-rotation starter or a very good reliever, and is very likely to make the majors this season. Rafaela, Murphy and Lugo are still prospects, Nos. 4, 13 and 14, respectively, on SoxProspects.

Dalbec had a very good finish to 2021, helping the Sox make the playoffs. Duran has made the majors, and can't be completely written off yet. And Ramirez was used in a trade to pick up Schwarber, who was a key addition in 2021.
The issue isn't whether that was a group that would ultimately be judged as good or bad. The issue is whether or not Bloom had cost-controlled talent to add to an 84 win team that was getting older and more expensive from 2019 to 2022. And he clearly did not. I'll be thrilled if Casas and Bello turn into all stars, but 2019 Bloom knew they would be of no help to the Red Sox until 2023 at the earliest, and he had to plan his roster accordingly.