Do you think that Chaim Bloom came to Boston with a bad rap?
- Thread starter John Marzano Olympic Hero
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The trade deadline was really more towards the beginning of JD's slump - he was still hitting .302/.368/.481 on July 17th, and it was easy to write off his struggles after missing four games with back spasms as related to that injury (he hit .115/.172/.192 over the next 7 games to stand at .288/.353/.459 at the trade deadline). But things went south from there.
Then this is the exact same thing that other "entitled" Sox fans want.
There are hundreds of thousands of posts on this site, I don't think that anyone has ever said that the "Red Sox have to win the World Series every year or else they suck" like you stated in your initial strawman post. No one wants to watch a shitty baseball team. That is what people are saying when you say that they're entitled. The 2016 season was one of my favorite seasons to watch because they had a fun group of kids coming up. Once they committed to a youth movement, the 1987 team was a fun watch too.
But guess what, the 2012 edition, the 1992 team, the 2020 teams weren't just bad; they were boring and without hope. Those teams weren't fun to watch. Sub 500 teams aren't all created equally. I think that with the way this team is presently constituted, we're going to be closer to 2012 than 2016 (and that's even with Casas and Bello on the roster).
And another question for you, why do you have to take your lumps as a fan? You know that being bad for a certain amount of time doesn't mean that you're going to be good. There's no such thing as purgatory. I mean the Pirates have been pretty shitty (except for a few years) since the early 90s. The Orioles have had a few hiccups of goodness but have been pretty bad since the 80s. Have their fans taken their lumps? Are they not good enough fans to escape baseball purgatory? When does their shitty experience end?
Following a baseball team is not like following your 401K.
What does this have to do with entitlement? Can you find a single Sox fan that doesn't want them to be good every year? Being entitled is expecting it when it's not realistic for any team in pro sports with very very few exceptions. They could be starting the entire gulf coast league team in Boston and people would still want them to be good.
Did you read the OP, scottyno? Because jbupstate was coming from a place where no one has ever said what he asserted.
Plenty of people have said everything he asserted, that Bloom is cheap, that they Sox should always be spending a ton, and that they should be competing for a title every year. That's being entitled, almost no teams in pro sports do that, it has nothing to do with wanting your team to win.
When Chaim was hired, my initial impression was good. I hate the Devil Rays. Even I admit that their baseball operation, talent evaluation, and scouting is on point. They are always ready to add productive ballplayers to the major league roster, usually to fill a specific role. The Rays bullpen is a "revolving door", but their approach and coaching staff allows them to maximize results from the pitchers that they have. Tampa was able to trade Blake Snell because a guy like Shane McClanahan was knocking down the door.
All of which is to say - I was excited when he joined the club. My reasoning was that he would take that same approach to scouting and player development bolstered with a Red Sox-sized check book.
Right now - I am still optimistic, but obviously there are some questionable moves that have been made. My big caveat was that he joined the organization knowing that he would probably trade Mookie Betts. This was a no-win situation for him.
My prediction - Red Sox have a poor season or 2, Chaim gets fired, and shortly thereafter the Red Sox win the World Series with a team loaded with players that Chaim Bloom and his cohort drafted and developed. We may truly not know his effectiveness for years to come. Chances are we are having this debate even after Chaim has moved on.
All of which is to say - I was excited when he joined the club. My reasoning was that he would take that same approach to scouting and player development bolstered with a Red Sox-sized check book.
Right now - I am still optimistic, but obviously there are some questionable moves that have been made. My big caveat was that he joined the organization knowing that he would probably trade Mookie Betts. This was a no-win situation for him.
My prediction - Red Sox have a poor season or 2, Chaim gets fired, and shortly thereafter the Red Sox win the World Series with a team loaded with players that Chaim Bloom and his cohort drafted and developed. We may truly not know his effectiveness for years to come. Chances are we are having this debate even after Chaim has moved on.
THIS!
I think nothin wrong with FSG expecting more out of their year over year over year investment in payroll. Finishing last while dishing out top 5 dollars is insane. Especially when you can clearly see what needs to be done.
Build out the development machine. Weaponize it. That was Theo? Once completed flex financial muscles. That’s the plan folks.
Takes a ballpark 4-6 years to stock a system with potential. Less if you tank.
Bloom was hired to build the system. I was unsure he could flex financially but the Devers contracts tells me he can. But instead of credit he get bullshit Winter Classic JWH was embarrassed comments. On this site no less.
I’m going to enjoy 2023 because my expectations are realistic and there are a few new faces to follow. I expect to be pleasantly surprised. Things could come together with health and production from new guys that could potentially put Bloom in position add to improve chance at WC. Maybe.
I accept the rebuild because it was necessary. I like the plan. I don’t think this team is a WS contender with Betts, Xander and Devers…. Look at 2019 and clearly see that team was going south while salaries would rocket north.
Let’s see the Mets and Phillies win three titles in 10 years before we consider their spend first model as correct.
The Braves? Can’t sign great young players to early contracts if you don’t have great young players.
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The tedious "entitled fan" stuff falls apart when one considers that everyone here was thrilled with the 2021 results. I recall a thread late in that year which asked what would be considered success, and the vast majority of responses were either making the playoffs at all, or managing to beat the Yankees in the 1-game wild card. Everything beyond that was gravy. So the notion that people are expecting title contention every year was shown to be false exactly one season ago.
But yeah, entitled fans.
But yeah, entitled fans.
Pretty much sums up my thoughts. I was excited because Tampa is pretty shrewd and I thought we'd have a similar GM experience with the ability to flex up financially, when needed. Chaim has made a few solid-to-good moves but I feel the report card is still a little light at this time. I'm not expecting a Slocumb for Varitek/Lowe trade every year but the current "wins" haven't been as impressive as I was expecting. But, to be honest, I don't really know what my expectations should have been. He was rumored for the Mets job before he got ours so I was familiar with the name and his work in Tampa but he was, and remains, kind of an unknown to me. I think 2023 will be a good judge of his value. He has to make a lot of strategic short-term and long-term decisions. Guys like Rafaela may now be on the table...or may not. In short, he needs to start playing hands soon so we'll see what we've got there.
If you look at his game logs, he started sucking exactly a month earlier than that; in 118 PA from 6/17-7/17 he had 22 hits with 1 HR and 7 BB vs 29 Ks.
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You can parse it however you want. He ended up hitting .210/.244/.346 with 1 HR in 81 July ABs.
& from July 11th to July 30th they went 3-13 & really tanked their playoff chances at the same time JD was free falling.
On July 10th, the Red Sox had the 3rd best record in the AL at 47-39 behind only the Yankees & Astros. Selling JD then would probably have allowed them to get a mid prospect or 2 & get off his entire contract, but I'm pretty sure that would not have gone over well at all, nor should it have without the lens of hindsight. Don't think anyone was calling for a teardown at that point.
I really agree with this post. Apologies for tossing out super entitled.
This focus should be on the team and playing meaningful games in the last weekend of the season.
I guess my real issue is the “it’s not my money/rich owners should keep spending “ narrative. It ignores financial/player penalties and has proven not to equal consistent winning. And has shown a blueprint on how to potentially cripple at team!long term.
Add item to the good season… Yankees lose last game of year. Great season if Yankee loss is to the Sox.
Bloom was not hired to just build up the farm system, if that was true he’d been given the title of Minor League Operatuons Director. He was hired as President of Baseball Ops which oversees everything from class A ball to the Major Leagues.
He’s done okay building up the farm, but he’s done a pretty bad job with the rest of his responsibilities. Yeah, he gets credit for the 2021 team but the 2020 team was awful, 2022 wasn’t great and this year’s edition looks even worse.
I’m not sure why a lot of people want to laud Bloom for doing literally one part of his job semi competently. We all have multiple duties at our jobs, what if we were only good-ish at one of them?
He’s done okay building up the farm, but he’s done a pretty bad job with the rest of his responsibilities. Yeah, he gets credit for the 2021 team but the 2020 team was awful, 2022 wasn’t great and this year’s edition looks even worse.
I’m not sure why a lot of people want to laud Bloom for doing literally one part of his job semi competently. We all have multiple duties at our jobs, what if we were only good-ish at one of them?
No apology needed. There has been a ton of "entitled fans" posts for months here and it makes me nuts. I agree that there are real financial considerations, and that spending without any discernable plan typically leads to disaster.
What exactly did you want him to do in 2020 & how would that possibly reflect negatively on Bloom? (without relitigating the Betts trade which the break even point for a return was literally 0 considering all the money that went out, but let's not derail)
He had a directive to get under the tax line in 2020. Even after trading Betts & half of Price's salary, they had about $20m to spend.
This is how they ended up spending the $$$:
Major League Signings
- Martin Perez, SP: One year, $6.5MM (includes $500K buyout of $6.25MM club option for 2021)
- Kevin Pillar, CF: One year, $4.25MM
- Mitch Moreland, 1B: One year, $3MM (includes $500K buyout of $3MM club option for 2021)
- Jose Peraza, IF: One year, $3MM
- Kevin Plawecki, C: One year, $900K
- Josh Osich, RP: One year, $850K (split contract)
- Marco Hernandez, RP: One year, $650K (split contract)
- Collin McHugh, SP/RP: One year, $600K
- Total spend: $19.75MM
Here are Trades & Claims:
Trades And Claims
- Acquired OF Alex Verdugo, IF prospect Jeter Downs, C/IF prospect Connor Wong from the Dodgers for OF Mookie Betts, SP David Price, and $48MM in cash considerations
- Acquired RP prospect Adenys Bautista from the Indians for C Sandy Leon
- Acquired RP Austin Brice from the Marlins for IF prospect Angeudis Santos
- Acquired RP Jeffrey Springs from the Rangers for 1B Sam Travis
- Acquired SP/RP Matt Hall from the Tigers for C prospect Jhon Nunez
- Acquired cash considerations or a player to be named later from the Cubs for SP/RP Travis Lakins
- Claimed SP/RP Chris Mazza off waivers from the Mets
- Claimed RP Phillips Valdez off waivers from the Mariners
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2020/03/offseason-in-review-boston-red-sox-12.html
So yeah...I guess in regard to your job analogy...
Let's say someone, hypothetically, took over a job a few months ago wherein one was tasked to take over a bunch of cases from someone who had left them in really bad shape, had given the clients overly optimistic advice, told them things would be cheaper than they ought to be, filed lawsuits where the best case outcome was bad for the client, etc.
To the extent that some of those ended up badly, it would not say much of anything about the skill of the person who took over, but rather of the priorities & competencies of the person who preceded. The more autonomy one has over one's caseload/roster the more one's own skills can be judged when they are not having to maneuver around the obstacles created by those who came before. You can judge the person based on their new work & how things are looking much sooner than you can judge on the pre-existing cases.
The more time that passes, the more fair it is to judge the new person for the entire product as any obstacles at that point would be self-inflicted. I think '24 is the tipping point season in that regards. If Bloom hasn't done what I expect by then, I'm all for replacing him with someone with a similar Dodgers/Astros model plan (as this type of roster building is the one that has shown to be sustainable in every successful franchise currently, including the Yankees/Rays), but better player evaluation skills/PR skills/recruitment skills/management skills/whatever.
I maintain that being an “entitled fan” means you want your team to win or at least give teh maximum effort when it comes to putting out a good product on the field. That’s it.
Bloom, Henry and Warner aren’t kindergarteners, we don’t have to clap for every good thing they do and keep our mouths shut when they disappoint us for fear of hurting their feelings. They can take it.
They’re charging us a lot of money to follow this team. You can eat a shitty meal every once in awhile but you’re also allowed to say, “Jesus, that meal sucks. What did I pay for?”
Mindlessly eating whatever is served does no one any good.
All fair. Sometimes though, it seems like people are saying the food sucks before they even make the reservation just because "iknowrestaurants 74" gave it a bad review on yelp.
I think "impatient" is a better word than "entitled".
I find the lack of patience & appreciation of the importance of pre-free agency talent & how long it takes to actually build that up to be maddening. Having to pay $9m per WAR in free agency rather than $700k for a young player really limits what one can do within whatever budget is imposed.
People want things NOW, regardless of how timelines might look & regardless of what might happen later because they are just thinking about the now.
I find the lack of patience & appreciation of the importance of pre-free agency talent & how long it takes to actually build that up to be maddening. Having to pay $9m per WAR in free agency rather than $700k for a young player really limits what one can do within whatever budget is imposed.
People want things NOW, regardless of how timelines might look & regardless of what might happen later because they are just thinking about the now.
One can be in agreement with the general plan (while acknowledging that getting good young players is hardly unique) but question the exception. The centerpieces in Bloom’s big deals (Downs, Winckowski / Cordero, Seabold, etc.) haven’t been terribly impressive and it’s really too soon to know about anyone that he’s drafted. We will obviously know a lot more this season, as players he’s drafted and acquired will need to start helping the big club, either themselves or via trade.
We can talk about being entitled or impatient, but it’s Bloom’s bosses who canned / demoted the last two guys after four years…and this is year 4 for Bloom.
We can talk about being entitled or impatient, but it’s Bloom’s bosses who canned / demoted the last two guys after four years…and this is year 4 for Bloom.
If it's not the President of Baseball Ops' fault, then whose fault is it? If you want to say Bloom is not to be blamed, that's cool; then it's John Henry's fault? Tom Warner's fault?
Personally, I think that the buck stops with the guy with the big title. I am sure that it wasn't a surprise that Henry told him that he needed to cut payroll by moving Betts. What I fault Bloom is not having the imagination to do anything but get destroyed in his first--and probably his biggest--trade. That really set the table for his tenure.
Right, but we've eaten enough sandwiches at this point to have a pretty good idea when the sandwich artist is not good.
(BTW, if I ever decide to make a profile on Yelp, I'm definitely stealing "iknowrestaurants74". That's a great handle.)
What exactly could any of those guys have done to save the season once they lost both Sale and Erod, one of them because of a fucking global pandemic?
IDK what did Cherington do when both of his closers went down?
I mean there’s nothing any professional can do but curl up in the fetal position with a bottle of Jack and cry about how unfair life is for seven months. Obviously.
2020 was expected to be a tank year for the team. Ownership on down. Cannot fault Bloom for 2020.
Umm...2018s fault & the resulting spending binge combined with no cost-controlled talent besides Devers?
The Betts trade was a good trade (in hindsight) because the Dodgers paid like $42m for 3.6 fWAR. Not being able to divorce Mookie the amazing player who we loved watching from the financial reality makes people's opinions on the Betts trade tiresome to read & super divorced from reality.
If there were some amazing offers on the table & Bloom was like nope, I'm taking this one, then fine, lambast him. Such offers were not on the table, though. Getting a few years of an ok starting outfielder for cheap is a huge win over what was shipped out. Would it have been nice if Downs turned into a real player? Of course. Would it be nice if Wong turns into a real player this year? Of course. But even as a Punto #2 deal this would have been a win (although a sad one, caused by bad contracts & no Minor League talent ready to contribute).
Verdugo: $4.7m, 5.2 fWAR
Betts + Price: $42m, 3.6 fWAR
If you can tell me what Bloom could have done with $20m that would have led to a good season (as opposed to the 24-36 season which allowed them to get a top 5ish prospect in baseball), without mortgaging the future, I'm happy to listen & have you credit Bloom with the crappy season. Otherwise, no I think it's useless to blame him for a roster he had no ability to turn over in any meaningful way with no budget & no other useful players to trade.
Well, technically he didn't do anything, Farrell did, and what he did was put the really really good middle reliever they had signed 6 months before into the closer role. Who were the 2 really really good starters they had in place already to take those spots?
He did try to do things, they made a ton of minor moves that year, they were just really really limited in what they could actually do, so not surprisingly most of the guys they tried sucked.
On that $20m budget he managed to acquire their best pitcher that year - Phillips Valdez, 3.24 ERA in 30.1 innings, their most prolific pitcher, Martin Perez, 4.50 ERA in 62 innings...& several other people who managed to...pitch innings? He also turned Workman/Hembree, who had only pitched 16.1 innings between them, into 10 excellent innings from Pivetta.
He also acquired the guys who were 4th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 13th, 15th & 16th in ABs.
But sure, it's probably Bloom's fault their best pitcher had Tommy John surgery in late March & their 2nd best pitcher discovered a heart condition the day before the season & their team wasn't good.
I am not sure what you’re debating here. I took a little time to go through some of your posts across threads. Seems clear to me you’re anti-Bloom and are actively looking to undercut the other view. That’s your opinion and I’m okay with you having an opinion.
The poll could probably have another choice…. I give him the BOTD but need more time before I pass judgment.
The 2020 season was not a normal season. I would love to read years from now the Sox as an organization decided to tank. They were going to get killed financially with a short season and no fans. Made the decision and ended up with #4 pick and had Mayer fall to them. It isn’t true but that would have been an outstanding strategy that paid off. Not really what happened but 2020 sucked anyway.
But the 2021 season did happen and as referenced above, the Sox were for 75% of the last 2 seasons trending as a 90+ win team… with Sale potentially coming back.
Bloom was threading the needle nicely at that point. That 1.5 years was with a roster that was short on depth, without AAA reinforcements and heavy $ tied up in injury and sunk costs.
The minors over that time were getting better without the advantage of multiple drafts and high premium picks. I think it’s a given that you cannot produce high end AAA prospects ready to compete for spots on the MLB team in 3 years. Including one impacted by a pandemic.
Bloom has done an acceptable job. One huge screw up bringing back JBJ. A few really nice pick ups (Whitlock, Wacha, Schreiber, Refsnyder, Renfroe, Schwarber) and a lot of marginal gains. Tons of lottery tickets. Maintained salary/term discipline and signed the right guy long term.
No one is advocating spending like drunken sailors. In fact, I am perfectly happy with them to spend their resources modestly on the farm, with the idea that it will translate to success down the line. The problem is, "not spending" is different from "developing talent at the prospect level". I am fine with the Sox not chasing down de Grom or Judge or Verlander or whoever at this point because that would indicate a desire to win now (something this team is not built to do). But if they are not trying to win now (i.e. spend on free agents), then I would expect them to be investing heavily in the future with prospect acquisition and development. Honestly, I do not see much in that department and if you disagree with that, that is okay. Outside of Mayer, who is facing a ton of pressure to be The Guy in a couple of years, I just don't see a ton of high level talent on the farm.
Moreover, I think most people are okay with the idea of resetting the luxury tax, since that is how it works. But one would hope that in the fallow periods of lower spending, the team would have a lot of young talent to get excited about. No one is saying resetting the luxury tax level is bad. I am saying that if that if Bloom's goal is to reset the luxury tax (which me missed the mark on) and build the team from the minors up, he has to actually do that second part. I don't see it.
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When do people get excited about young talent? The lower minors are being stocked. They need time to develop and proceed through the system. This time next year there should be guys in and above AA that were drafted by Bloom.
The Red Sox Farm system has moved up from being ranked 25th in 2020 to 11th in the rankings (Callis et al MLB - Keith Law's is similar I believe).
That's a big jump and a huge move towards sustainability and success. And that is up and down the system from my view, though I know we have more informed posters than me looking at these things. I think stocking the farm and making low risk high upside moves are what I would have expected form Bloom. He's done those well.
Some of his trades and his mid-season decisioning have been pretty mediocre, as has pointed out. Hopefully he is learning and will improve.
That's a big jump and a huge move towards sustainability and success. And that is up and down the system from my view, though I know we have more informed posters than me looking at these things. I think stocking the farm and making low risk high upside moves are what I would have expected form Bloom. He's done those well.
Some of his trades and his mid-season decisioning have been pretty mediocre, as has pointed out. Hopefully he is learning and will improve.
These two posts square with my view of the situation and my vote, and I was a little surprised to see this thread continue on without addressing them.
While I would've loved to have seen more of the 2018 core signed here for a long time, you need flexibility to do that. To get flexibility, you graduate prospects and our pipeline was dry. On top of that, our biggest investments have been injured and our most promising prospects have been duds or maybes. Still, we were able to retain the youngest player from our 2018 core for what looks like a pretty good deal.
With these as givens, the plan is pretty obvious. Rebuild the pipeline while placing a bunch of short to medium-sized bets with OK floors and pretty good ceilings. If you hit on them, you get a 2021 or even a 2013 surprise if the stars align. But rebuilding the pipeline takes 4-7 years, as prospects need to go through baseball undergrad and then some level of baseball graduate school. Most flunk out. And if you listen to interviews with Bloom, he says as much.
2022 was actually looking pretty promising until the bike injury right after the trade deadline. Not sure shot to win a championship promising, but from where I was sitting in July they could have been a dark horse in the playoffs, and maybe something more.
To me, the Bloom years look like this:
- 2020 - tank year in a 60-game crapshoot of a season with our two best pitchers injured
- 2021 - "the plan" goes mostly right
- 2022 - bad injury luck and bad timing
Sorry, help me to understand:
Are you saying the ranking is skewed after getting Mayer?
Or are you suggesting in some way that the 2020 low ranking somehow reflected a whole organization tank to acquire the pick? (which sounds unbelievable).
Or am I just wholly missing the question...it happens.
Not saying it’s skewed, just wondering how highly rated the system would be without a top 10-15 prospect like Mayer, who took absolutely zero skill to acquire.
That’s not the point. The point being made is that Chaim built up the system. I think he’s done it to some extent. But I also think Mayer’s presence may have a disproportionate impact on the system’s rankings so I’m not sure just how much credit Chaim deserves…yet. All our top guys are Dombrowski picks or Mayer, who any of us as GM could have acquired.
Bloom drafted (or IFA signed) 9 of our top 12
1. Mayer: Bloom
2. Casas: DD
3. Rafaela: DD
4. Yorke: Bloom
5. Bleis: Bloom
6. Mata: DD
7. Walter: Bloom
8. Romero: Bloom
9. Jordan: Bloom
10. Anthony: Bloom
11. Murphy: Bloom
12: Lugo: Bloom
So....no.
(edited out a smiley icon error)
Murphy was 10th round in '18 (DD), Lugo was a 2nd round pick in '19, so DD, & Walter was a 26th round pick in '19, so DD.
But it's not surprising as most bigger prospects are usually going to be from longer ago & closer to MLB ready. I'm just glad that fallow period is ending.
It'll be a few years before we get a really good idea of what's up with most of the Bloom guys, but there is definitely quantity there that hasn't been there.
Walter and Murphy were drafted in 2019; Chaim Bloom wasnt hired until 5 months after the 2019 draft.
But, again, that’s not my point. How much are those Bloom guys driving the overall rankings when they’re mostly A ball players? Nobody is disputing that he’s improved the Red Sox system. But the rankings are in reference to overall strength vs. other systems.
For sake of analysis, I’m stripping out Mayer because he deserves no credit for Mayer. He doesn’t deserve credit for Bello, Casas, or Rafaela either. So, how much are his guys influencing the rankings? My understanding is that it’s mostly driven by the top few since I have no idea how a talent evaluator would differentiate A ball guys.
Thus, I think it’s way too early to give Chaim too much credit with respect to system rankings. In a year, the Dom guys will have graduated and the Chaim guys will have had another full season so we’ll have a much better picture of his development acumen then.
Yup, my mistake.
BSF: As for whether Bloom deserves credit for the guys whom he drafted, or not, if you can't credit Bloom for the guys he drafted who the hell are you crediting?! He gets blamed for a shitty year. He should get credit for a high draft pick and making the best choice. Detroit, Pittsburgh and Texas didn't pick Mayer, Chaim Bloom did. And he has added uy throughout the system, through trades Rule 5 and international signings
You are certainly entitled to your own opinion, just not your own set of facts, and the fact is the Farm system is widely regarded by many baseball experts as drastically improved by Bloom.
Anyway, enough of this, we are just going back and forth at this point: as the french say "Je ne veux pas a enculer les mouches"!
Outside of Mayer they have 2 high level guys starting the season this year in Boston, how many should one team have?
I have defended Bloom to family who think he sucks. I'm done with that.
I'm willing to bet a million pigs that Boegarts performs better than Devers over the next decade, or whatever the fuck length of those contracts.
Devers is going to break down. Book it.
I'm willing to bet a million pigs that Boegarts performs better than Devers over the next decade, or whatever the fuck length of those contracts.
Devers is going to break down. Book it.
That's a lot of bacon.
ETA: Sorry, hungry, but I should say something more productive...
It's too early to judge most of what Bloom has done, but with only a couple exceptions, I think the things he has done have been smart based on the circumstances that were surrounding the situations.
But like even the JBJ trade becomes good if either DHam or Binelas become part of the next championship run.
& all the maneuvering in the world can't save him if his guys turn out to be JAGs & Yoshida can't cut it in MLB.
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