#DFG: Canceling the Noise

Is there any level of suspension that you would advise Tom to accept?


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HowBoutDemSox

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DrewDawg said:
I can't get over Wells saying the pressure and gauge didn't matter. Is there something I'm not seeing here?
Being charitable, I think they meant that, even if the more favorable gauge to the Patriots was used, Exponent still finds the chance the psi numbers were caused by natural effects to be slim to nil given their study (the accuracy of which is a side note, but Paul, Weiss is clearly relying on it).

Of course, these guys should know very well how much a statement can be taken out of context and made to look ridiculous or suspicious, so no excuse for these guys.

Side note: wonder of Wells will send Goodell a bill for the call.
 

Brohamer of the Gods

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NortheasternPJ said:
 
What's a bigger blow to the integrity of the game? The fact that the NFL can't afford cameras at the goal line or they lit $2-5 million dollars on fire with this?
Well they are getting $1 million back . . .
 

Doctor G

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drleather2001 said:
 
Right.  This whole thing started because the Colts were basically forced to concede a fucking AFC Championship game because they knew they had 0 fucking chance of winning, so they (with an assist from the Ravens) sought to tear down the Patriots.   It's notable that the franchises that seem to be involved in this: the Jets, the Colts, and the Ravens, are the ones that would have most benefited over the past several years from the Patriots being not so good.
This whole thing started when the Ravens blew two 14 point leads on a cold night in Foxboro, and their quarterback  dissed their coach who comes from a football lineage just as extensive as  Belichick.
 
I would give anything to see the text messages and call logs for Harbaugh's phone.
 

NortheasternPJ

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If the NFL really wanted to stick it to the Patriots, they would have required them to be on Hard Knocks. Talk about a Scud missile at the Patriots organization. 
 
Then we could go full WWE. 
 

NortheasternPJ

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Brohamer of the Gods said:
Well they are getting $1 million back . . .
 
ALL KRAFT CARES ABOUT IS PAYING THE DOLLARS MIKE, HES SAVING MONEY IN THIS DEAL! WHY IS HE UPSET? 
 
ONCE AGAIN ROGER DOES HIS WOOBY KRAFT A FAVOR!
 

Peak Oil Can Boyd

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swingin val said:
"Richard Farley, who has been the NFL Security Representative for New England
for approximately twelve years and is present in the Officials Locker Room before and during
every Patriots home game, said that he considers it part of his job description to accompany the
referee to the field and that he is generally in close proximity to McNally and the game balls
when he walks to the field with the referee. According to Farley, he often opens the door to
allow McNally to exit easily with the ball bags, and then McNally, Farley, the referee and the
head linesman will walk to the field together or in close proximity to each other. Farley cannot
recall McNally previously bringing game balls to the field prior to the start of a game without
being accompanied by or in close proximity to one or more game officials."
 
 
Hendu for Kutch said:
Has anyone tried to explain the following:
 
A) If the Patriots had been deflating balls for a long time, why did they fail to do so in the Jets game?  Wouldn't that be the time they'd be most likely to do it?  Doesn't that example seem to actually show that they hadn't been doing it?
 
B) The Colts became suspicious of this practice based on the balls in their last meeting.  How is this possible considering ball boys don't travel with the team?  Isn' that the basis for this entire investigation?  And if you tell me they can deflate the ball without their ballboys having possession of them, then why was it even remotely necessary for one to hide in a bathroom to do so?
 
Doesn't all of this point to them not doing anything to the balls after the inspection?   
 

Harry Hooper

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Wells & Co. just made millions on this job, and he can't stomach any heat for 24 hours. Incredible! 
 

swingin val

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If the same gauge was used to measure both the Patriots and Colts the balls before the game, I'm not sure it matters which one it actually was. They have a starting point 12.5 for Pats, 13.0 for Colts, and they have a half-time reading with both gauges on both teams balls. Pretty simple to work backwards I think
 

Marciano490

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Doctor G said:
This whole thing started when the Ravens blew two 14 point leads on a cold night in Foxboro, and their quarterback  dissed their coach who comes from a football lineage just as extensive as  Belichick.
 
I would give anything to see the text messages and call logs for Harbaugh's phone.
 
Well, his bro is already in trouble at U. Mich., no?
 

Reverend

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Myt1 said:
It's all over the fucking report, too. Anyone saying this simply has no credibility whatsoever, regardless of what needle they're trying to thread.
 
I have yet to see a defense of the NFL's process, reasoning, and actions that would pass muster in an undergraduate course on legal or justice theory. It fails on multiple necessary requirements for a system of justice to be considered legitimate under any contemporarily accepted theory of justice.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Saints Rest said:
Has a starting QB ever been suspended for 4 games?  Does this suspension, include the preseason?  I would think not, as Browner's didn't, but that was for a different issue and one which was called for in the CBA.  
I guess you would have to treat it as though Brady is the backup.  Give him a few series in each game, but most of the work with the 1's would have to be with JG. Then Brady, in essence, goes to the clipboard for 4 games.  
 
Can Brady practice with the team during the suspension?  Can he use the facilities?
 
Roethlisberger?
 

steveluck7

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It'd be kind of scary putting Brady behind a 2nd and 3rd string O-line. Although, i gues syou could argue he had that at times early last season. As long as Devey isn't out there
 

Reverend

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NavaHo said:
This one game, the one time the league was kinda sorta paying attention to the inflation levels of the balls, was the one time in his 19 year (or whatever) career Walt Anderson didn't know where the balls went for a period of time before the game started.
 
I'm sorry if this point's been made already, it just struck me.
 
The reasoning being offered is that in this game, because the locker room was more crowded than usual, that's why Deflatey McGee had to slip off and do it in the other bathroom, whereas in most games, he can find a place in the room where he's alone to do it.
 
Of course, the Patriots have played in a couple of other playoff games, if memory serves.
 

kfoss99

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i thought this is a thorough article on this mess, including all the motives that the NFL had to do what it did (John Teti - The Stuff of Parity). Apologies if it's already been posted. 
 
Also, it's on a pop culture web site, so this has a pretty far media reach. 
 
It's really the perfect scandal as it's about nothing of significance, so everyone can bluster and there is no need for introspection or to change behavior.  Ray Rice, Adrian Peterson, concussions, suicides, murders are too real for the league, fans, media, and advertisers.
 
http://www.avclub.com/article/stuff-parity-nfl-punishes-quarterback-winning-too--219251
 
 
 

Padaiyappa

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RetractableRoof said:
https://twitter.com/rapsheet/status/598192722873225218 
link to tweet 
 
So Ms Reisner, that little 8 pound baby they are rushing into surgery.  They need its weight in order to properly administer anesthetic.  Do you want them to use the scale with the broken needle that tends to register a little higher or should they use the other scale?  It doesn't change the science, right?  Would your answer change if it were YOUR child???
Lorin Reisner is a dude... And a partner at that firm...
 

djbayko

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bakahump said:
I am thrilled at the aspect of the Pats Fighting this.
 
Whats the worse that can happen?  The NFL has already handed down the most sever penalty I can remember.  We fight it and they will make it worse? nah.
 
Instead the NFL brought any bad press it receives as part of the "reaction" on its self.  Of course they and their mouthpieces are playing the "They should just come clean and go quietly" card.
 
Its why you dont ground your daughter for a year for staying out all night at the party.  She will never put up with it and the situation will just escalate.  A rationally, fair and balanced punishment would be much smarter for all involved.  The punishment needs to be enough so that the Patriots (or any future team) say "ehh we better stop" (if there was even anything TO stop in this case)  But not so bad that the punished  say "Fuck it...we got nothing to lose".
They can't make it worse, but that has nothing to do with the severity. Double jeopardy. It's exactly what Goodell was pounded for in the Ray Rics case.
 

Gambler7

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swingin val said:
If the same gauge was used to measure both the Patriots and Colts the balls before the game, I'm not sure it matters which one it actually was. They have a starting point 12.5 for Pats, 13.0 for Colts, and they have a half-time reading with both gauges on both teams balls. Pretty simple to work backwards I think
This has been covered over and over. The Colts balls were measured several minutes (7+?) after the Patriots, which would explain the difference in PSI as they had more time for the PSI to rise after coming in from the cold. And only four of the Colts balls were tested. AND Andersen did not remember exactly what they measured before the game. Somewhere between 12.8 and 3.1. 
 

dynomite

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Saints Rest said:
Has a starting QB ever been suspended for 4 games?  
Yes, as said above Big Ben was suspended for 6 games in 2010, which was reduced to 4.

Edit: The Steelers went 3-1 in those games, ended up 12-4, and lost to the Packers in the Super Bowl.

 
Saints Rest said:
Can Brady practice with the team during the suspension?  Can he use the facilities?
No. He cannot contact any member of coaching staff, either.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Joshv02 said:
The report says that Bird usually had access to the balls in the locker room while alone, implying that is where he normally deflated them.  This time he wasn't alone so he took a potty break.
 
Which of course makes no sense (normally he sits in a room everyone has access to and deflates with impunity!), and of course makes less sense since after the Jets Oct 16 2014 (home) game everyone thought the balls were at 16 PSIG (he just forgot to do his job that day, clearly angering Brady).  But, well, there you go.
 
What the report does do, however, is list 2 or 3 other people who say that Bird went out to the field on his own fairly often; but then it dismissed them for no real reason other than to say "I believe these other people more."
 
The Occam's Razor explanation for all this is so simple: Brady likes the balls at 12.5, he gets pissed when they're overly inflated, he tells JJ to tell McNally to make sure it never happens again and that he should get on the refs about keeping them at 12.5, McNally does pester the refs pregame but also sometimes gets told to fuck off by them or doesn't trust them, and when that happens he takes matters into his own hands by remeasuring them and letting a little air out to get them to 12.5.
 
In sum, the most likely scenario is that:
 
a) Brady never asked for balls below 12.5 or anything shady, just to pester refs.
b) Dumb and dumber decide somewhere along the line that its best to take matters into their own hands just to make sure.
c) McNally may or may not have done something shady in that bathroom, but if he did it was probably just to make sure the balls were at 12.5.
d) JJ and McNally lie to cover their asses during the investigation.  This actually hurts Brady in the end as it raises suspicion and leaves the door open to a broader conspiracy.
e) Wells/Goodell are happy to run with this.  They know that Brady is the target, not some clowns in the locker room.  They purposefully leave out the most strenuous denials from Brady about ever wanting balls below 12.5 or asking for rules to be broken.
f) Abuses of scientific integrity are then perpetrated in the attempt to prove that the balls started below 12.5 when that was never even the intention and quite likely never actually happened.
 

Bob420

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We know McNally was deflating the footballs. Whether he was deflating them under 12.5 seems to be the question. Why was McNally even involved in this process? Wasn't it JJ's job to prepare the footballs for Brady and couldn't he just get them to 12.5?

The texts seem to be the only thing that they got them on. The one about Dave knowing it was unrealistic that Tom did it himself after the scandal broke looks pretty bad.
 

LuckyBen

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swingin val said:
If the same gauge was used to measure both the Patriots and Colts the balls before the game, I'm not sure it matters which one it actually was. They have a starting point 12.5 for Pats, 13.0 for Colts, and they have a half-time reading with both gauges on both teams balls. Pretty simple to work backwards I think
Because it becomes important which gauge came up with the 12.5 number. Which is a made up number fabricated by Wells anyways.
 

NortheasternPJ

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steveluck7 said:
It'd be kind of scary putting Brady behind a 2nd and 3rd string O-line. Although, i gues syou could argue he had that at times early last season. As long as Devey isn't out there
 
Another layer to this. That said, they've had Brady sit out just about the entire preseason before, so I'm sure he can pick it back up. But the entire preseason fascinates me as to what the plan is. Never mind that they are rebuilding an entire secondary at the same time. 
 

RetractableRoof

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swingin val said:
If the same gauge was used to measure both the Patriots and Colts the balls before the game, I'm not sure it matters which one it actually was. They have a starting point 12.5 for Pats, 13.0 for Colts, and they have a half-time reading with both gauges on both teams balls. Pretty simple to work backwards I think
Are you being sarcastic?  I can't tell.  Have you read the report?  If the guage with the bent needle which registers a bit higher according to all the readings provided by the wells report was used pregame, then the 12.5 number is actually high and the real number is a bit lower,  Which means the Ideal Gas Law calculations show the balls naturally within range when tested at the half.  So, it actually does matter.  Science, yo.
 

djbayko

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Bob420 said:
We know McNally was deflating the footballs. Whether he was deflating them under 12.5 seems to be the question. Why was McNally even involved in this process? Wasn't it JJ's job to prepare the footballs for Brady and couldn't he just get them to 12.5?

The texts seem to be the only thing that they got them on. The one about Dave knowing it was unrealistic that Tom did it himself after the scandal broke looks pretty bad.
No, this question is irrelevant. The relevant questions are: (a) was deflation occurring post-ref inspection, and if YES, (b) was Tom Brady aware of or even directing it?

Edit: Typo
 

BelichickFan

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Obviously I desperately want the suspension overturned - although I want the #1 pick back more.
 
However there is a definite upside I that JimmyG will be far more ready if disaster strikes and TB12 gets hurt once he returns.  We all know we've been lucky to just lose TB12 the one year and if JimmyG does have to play 4 (or hopefully 2) games, he will be far more ready in, say, Week 12 if needed.    I think JimmyG will prove to be a gamer and execute the offense just fine as he'll, no doubt, get extra reps in camp.
 

kartvelo

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Bob420 said:
The texts seem to be the only thing that they got them on. The one about Dave knowing it was unrealistic that Tom did it himself after the scandal broke looks pretty bad.
Not necessarily.
"Hey Tom, this guy came around asking a bunch of questions cuz they think somebody's been messing with the balls after the refs clear them. But I wouldn't worry, I doubt he thinks you did it."
 

ivanvamp

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troparra said:
 
So for 12 years, nothing funny happened to the balls?   Interesting.  
Exactly. Doesn't this show there was no pattern of behavior here and whatever happebed in the AFCCG was an aberration?
 

geoduck no quahog

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I think Wells doesn't understand the science, and had no interest in understanding it. He based his conclusion solely on interviews and texts.
 
Remember: McNally had nothing to do with inflating footballs - that was Jastremski, who gave the prepped balls to McNally, who delivered them to the officials for pre-game gauging and safekeeping. It was McNally's job to remind the officials that the QB wanted them set at 12.5. It was Jastremski's job to deliver them under-inflated so (a) either some may go through without gauging or, (b) at worst - the officials re-inflate to (hopefully) 12.5...under the watchful eye of McNally.
 
Something went wrong during the Jets' game. Either the balls were delivered high and the officials didn't touch them, or they were delivered at the correct (low) pressure and the officials over-inflated them. In either case it was a possible fuckup by Jastremski - followed by a verifiable fuckup from McNally. This is important: McNally fucked up.
 
So the wrath of Brady comes down on Jastremski and (by association) McNally. Jastremski knows either he fucked up and/or McNally definitely fucked up.
 
This is what leads to future events.
 

DJnVa

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swingin val said:
If the same gauge was used to measure both the Patriots and Colts the balls before the game, I'm not sure it matters which one it actually was. They have a starting point 12.5 for Pats, 13.0 for Colts, and they have a half-time reading with both gauges on both teams balls. Pretty simple to work backwards I think
 

Maybe I'm misunderstand you, but it's extremely important which one the ref used.
 
Primer here: http://drewfustin.com/deflategate/
 

pappymojo

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Bob420 said:
We know McNally was deflating the footballs. Whether he was deflating them under 12.5 seems to be the question. Why was McNally even involved in this process? Wasn't it JJ's job to prepare the footballs for Brady and couldn't he just get them to 12.5?

The texts seem to be the only thing that they got them on. The one about Dave knowing it was unrealistic that Tom did it himself after the scandal broke looks pretty bad.
I think the only question is whether McNally deflated the balls before giving them to the officials, or after the officials took their readings.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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geoduck no quahog said:
I think Wells doesn't understand the science, and had no interest in understanding it. He based his conclusion solely on interviews and texts.
 
Remember: McNally had nothing to do with inflating footballs - that was Jastremski, who gave the prepped balls to McNally, who delivered them to the officials for pre-game gauging and safekeeping. It was McNally's job to remind the officials that the QB wanted them set at 12.5. It was Jastremski's job to deliver them under-inflated so (a) either some may go through without gauging or, (b) at worst - the officials re-inflate to (hopefully) 12.5...under the watchful eye of McNally.
 
Something went wrong during the Jets' game. Either the balls were delivered high and the officials didn't touch them, or they were delivered at the correct (low) pressure and the officials over-inflated them. In either case it was a possible fuckup by Jastremski - followed by a verifiable fuckup from McNally. This is important: McNally fucked up.
 
So the wrath of Brady comes down on Jastremski and (by association) McNally. Jastremski knows either he fucked up and/or McNally definitely fucked up.
 
This is what leads to future events.
 
Where do you draw that conclusion from?  I don't see any evidence anywhere that anybody wanted the ball lower than 12.5 at any stage of the process.
 

dcmissle

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So if they were using Wells to drive a narrative, it was pointless. We are barely 24 hours after the discipline, and the story is getting squished on ESPN.com. Tomorrow, it will be in footnotes. After that, it will pop up to the top of the page only when events warrant.

It's long, tough slog time. Nobody is capitulating. I suspect there will be no negotiating.

This was all about Ted Wells' feelings.

I nailed the discipline, but misjudged the man and feel very naive for believing as long as I did that we'd get a fair shake.
 

Myt1

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"No one can ignore the implications of that text message, and no one can see it as a joke."

"I could not ethically ignore the import and relevancy of those text messages and the other evidence."

Bahahahahaha.

Poor little feller was ethically required to draw the inference he did. Sentenced men younger than Brady to the electric chair. Didn't want to do it; felt he owed it to them.
 

Harry Hooper

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Ed Hillel said:
 
Wouldn't this exonerate them? How can the report argue on the one hand that this has been going on a while, as they conclude given the earlier text messages, and also that this is the first time anything like this has ever happened? Also, does the fact that the game was delayed come into play here? McNally left early because he went during the time of the regularly scheduled kickoff?
 
 
Entirely possible. It's also entirely possible, given the surfeit of extra officials and NFL game operations guys on site (Please read the end of the Wells Report about the K balls.), that McNally went out with some of these people, possibly even under their orders.
 

troparra

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swingin val said:
If the same gauge was used to measure both the Patriots and Colts the balls before the game, I'm not sure it matters which one it actually was. They have a starting point 12.5 for Pats, 13.0 for Colts, and they have a half-time reading with both gauges on both teams balls. Pretty simple to work backwards I think.
 
You can also go to Fig. 27 to see another reason why it matters.  Using the logo gauge (the one that Anderson recalled using), the only way for the Colts balls to come in at  halftime with the pressure at which they were recorded was if the pre-game temperature in the locker room was 67F. If the temp was any higher, then the balls would reach that same pressure only after halftime was over. 
 
The Wells report concludes from this that the pregame temp in the locker room was 67F.   In other words, the Wells report used ideal gas law calculations, assumed (but not recorded) initial ball pressures, halftime measurements of Colts' balls, and a hypothetical timeline of halftime ball testing events to determine the exact temperature in the locker room before the game.   They then used this temperature to verify the halftime pressure measurements of the Colts balls.  They did not seem to care that the temperature calculation used to verify the Colts' average ball pressure utilized the very same ball pressure measurements that they were verifying.   In so doing, they concluded that the Patriots balls were underinflated more than can be explained by "science".   
 

geoduck no quahog

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Again, forget the science. Put yourself into an investigator's shoes. Somebody who calls himself the "deflator" disappears wit the footballs before the official gives him permission, goes into a bathroom and lies about it (twice).
 
What would your conclusion be?
 
And how would you interpret the data to conform to your conclusion? Maybe most of the balls weren't below 12.5 at gametime, bu that doesn't mean McNally didn't fuck with them.
 

( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)

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swingin val said:
Page 61

Also this...

Numerous game officials, including those assigned to the AFC Championship
Game, told us that McNally generally does not remove the game balls from the Officials Locker
Room without express permission or without being accompanied by one or more game officials.
Walt Anderson said that in his experience, McNally has not removed, and is not permitted to
remove, the game balls from the Officials Locker Room without his permission. Anderson also
said that if McNally had asked to take the footballs to the field before he was ready to leave, he
would have told McNally to wait. Anderson has always denied requests by ball boys and locker
62
room attendants in other stadiums to take the game balls out before he was ready to go to the
field.
33
 
So McNally couldn't deflate them in the Refs room because there were more people there, so he sneaked into a bathroom to do it.  Also this NFL security guy always walks to the field with the refs and McNally.
 
Why hasn't anyone asked them what happened before the Ravens game?  You know the really important playoff game that happened a week before the Colts game, where the officials room was presumably just as crowded.
 

Ed Hillel

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cshea said:
My favorite part is Wells admitting the league didn't take the original complaint seriously. Suddenly, after gauging (actual gauge does not matter!) which way the wind was blowing the day after the AFCCG, it's serious enough to warrant a multi-million dollar investigation culminating in the harsher punishment levied against a franchise in league history? Amazing how we got from A to B here.
 
Right, email was no big deal, didn't take it seriously. Except for the entire part of the report that dictates how seriously the refs were taking everything. Except then also the part where McNally apparently sauntered up and took the balls away and nobody noticed, despite taking it so seriously. Except they weren't taking it so seriously.
 
Do I have that right?
 

ifmanis5

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Nope.  A bigger blow is that the NFL knowingly let seemingly illegal footballs to be played with in the AFC Championship Game yet didn't take it seriously after being warned about it.  The grandstanding of integrity of the game after the fact is mind-numbingly hypocritical.
Great point. Not only that but they had to fire a guy who was swapping in and out totally random balls for his own profit.
 

Otis Foster

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Shelterdog said:
 
The guns need to blaze but at the right time.
 
Yes. Even making allowances for home team bias, the restatement of Wells' presser was that it was pretty bad,
 
Let the journalists who know what they're doing (all 11 of them) do the job of dissecting the inconsistencies and unproved assumptions. More often than not, in trying to explain them away, Wells will do even more damage to himself. Let that play out till it becomes apparent to the neutral (i.e., non-NEP/Jets/Colts) fans that this thing was jury rigged and people begin asking "How the Hell could they play the game if there was a question about the integrity of the balls?"
 
Avoid complicated answers. 'Complicated' means anything more than 3 logical steps to reach the Aha! moment. 
 
Maybe 2, in certain areas.
 

pappymojo

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( . ) ( . ) and (_!_) said:
So McNally couldn't deflate them in the Refs room because there were more people there, so he sneaked into a bathroom to do it.  Also this NFL security guy always walks to the field with the refs and McNally.
 
Why hasn't anyone asked them what happened before the Ravens game?  You know the really important playoff game that happened a week before the Colts game, where the officials room was presumably just as crowded.
If the refs room was crowded, and he had to pee, why wouldn't he use the bathroom down the hall?
 

geoduck no quahog

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Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
 
Where do you draw that conclusion from?  I don't see any evidence anywhere that anybody wanted the ball lower than 12.5 at any stage of the process.
 
No evidence - just my speculation. If you're Green Bay, you want the balls to go to the officials over-inflated and see what happens...with the locker-room guy ensuring they're not deflated below 13.5
 
I'm only guessing that Jastremski would never want the balls to go to the officials much higher than 12.5 and that the way to be safe was to slightly under-inflate them and see what happens.