#DFG: Canceling the Noise

Is there any level of suspension that you would advise Tom to accept?


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Sportsbstn

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Goodell is quite likely to cut the suspension down.  The 4 games that Brady has been suspended have no precedent, and leaving it at 4 games likely only makes Brady's case stronger in court that Goodell and Vincent went totally off the deep end (and the Farve comparison will certainly be example A)  With everything Brady has gone through, if he is ready to sue, then I would tell Kraft and his buddy to pound sand if they proposed any backdoor deal.   Brady should care about himself, after this setup.  Brady owes NOTHING to Kraft, nothing to the league and nothing to Belichick.
 

Leather

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I find the idea that Kraft would be meddling with this to be preposterous. The only way he can preserve his relationship with Brady over this is if he removes himself as much as possible and doesn't give his QB the impression that he's pressuring in favor of Goodell.

Not to mention the inherent risk to Kraft of another leak that makes it appear that Kraft, and not Goodell, is trying to play fast and loose with labor law and formal discipline. It would be foolhardy on every level.
 

TheoShmeo

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amarshal2 said:
It would be one thing if there was strong logic behind your scenario but there isn't. This isn't life in prison or the death penalty. It's more like 30 days of probation as the money means very little. What innocent public person and union member with a reputation on the line would accept a deal that cut his completely illegitimate and coordinated public punishment to 15 days probation in exchange for giving up all legal recourse?

Nobody.

Goddell's team knows this. There is no benefit to using back channels that put his reputation further on the line if revealed and potentially give ammo to the Brady side all in the name of offering a deal nobody would accept.

Edit: and if Goddell thinks Brady is guilty based on the evidence he has then he's not offering a deal anyway.

Edit2: not to mention that your scenario requires team Brady to think they have no chance in court.
Sorry if I am not blown away by the screaming logic of this post.
 
The fact of the matter is that people are not monolithic.  The fact is that some people would trade certainty for uncertainty and just move on.
 
Tom Brady strikes me as someone who will indeed not accept a game penalty under any circumstances.  I do not see Tom doing a deal.
 
But some people just might.  Michael Holley, who has spent time with Tom, said on WEEI that he thought Tom would not go to Court.  I don't think Holley is right but the point is that your comment that no one anywhere would accept a deal is preposterously sweeping, and someone who has spent more time than either or us with Brady thinks we're both wrong about him.  Not that I think he's right; it just that there is more reason for doubt than you are allowing.
 
And you are flat wrong about my scenario requiring Tom to think he has no chance in Court.  A reasonable person could view the odds at 50-50 and still want to settle to remove doubt.  It just depends where your tolerance for risk is and stress on principle is.
 
And my argument was NEVER that Tom would take the deal.  It was from RG's perspective; that he would not OFFER a deal unless he thought Tom would stop fighting.  How you get from that to me positing that Tom would have to view his chances at success at zero is mind numbing.
 

TheoShmeo

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drleather2001 said:
I find the idea that Kraft would be meddling with this to be preposterous. The only way he can preserve his relationship with Brady over this is if he removes himself as much as possible and doesn't give his QB the impression that he's pressuring in favor of Goodell.

Not to mention the inherent risk to Kraft of another leak that makes it appear that Kraft, and not Goodell, is trying to play fast and loose with labor law and formal discipline. It would be foolhardy on every level.
Agree to disagree.
 
Kraft isn't "meddling" if he carries a message to Brady or Brady's camp that there is a deal to be done if Tom agrees to accept X and not fight.
 
I don't see any reason why Tom would be offended by that.
 
"Tom, I'm telling you this because I was asked to pass it on.  It's of course your call what you do with it and I am not going to advise you or even try to.  You of course know that I would prefer this just to go away but this is a deeply personal decision and one that I cannot make for you.  I have the utmost regard for you no matter what you do; you know that."  Why is that offensive?  
 
And it would not be foolhardy on the level of trying to help end this nonsense.  IF Tom was amenable to a deal, it's a win-win.  And if he's not, I have a lot of trouble seeing Tom exposing Kraft or being upset that he passed on the message.   
 
All of that said, Kraft's role in this, or non-role, is a total side point.  The actual point is that I don't see Goodell reducing the suspension without knowing that Tom would take that deal.  But, as some have pointed out, the MORE likely scenario is no reduction at all and a court room battle. Either because Goodell just isn't willing to reduce it or because Tom's side makes clear that he wont agree not to fight if any time remains.
 
The scenario that would surprise me would be if Roger reduced and then Tom fought it.     
 

In Vino Vinatieri

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TheoShmeo said:
Kraft isn't "meddling" if he carries a message to Brady or Brady's camp that there is a deal to be done if Tom agrees to accept X and not fight.
What message do you think he's going to pass on to Brady?
 
Tom, I'm telling you this because I was asked to pass it on. Rog would like to know that he's willing to deal with you on this, and is wondering what it would take for you to conspire with the owners against your own union in exchange for questionable personal benefits on a case you have a good chance to win outright. What do ya say, kid?
 
There's nothing to negotiate here. Greece has more leverage with the EU.
 

Myt1

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If Kraft isn't doing anything wrong by acting like this, then why would Tom publicizing it "expose" him?
 
I'm less confused by the hypothetical scenario than I am by the fact that you don't see that you're not even being internally logically consistent.
 

AB in DC

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I'm more confused by the fact that this thread has 100 new posts today after being silent for almost a full week.
 
(Man, I was really hoping this thread would fall to page 2 on the board.)
 

ivanvamp

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Sportsbstn said:
Goodell is quite likely to cut the suspension down.  The 4 games that Brady has been suspended have no precedent, and leaving it at 4 games likely only makes Brady's case stronger in court that Goodell and Vincent went totally off the deep end (and the Farve comparison will certainly be example A)  With everything Brady has gone through, if he is ready to sue, then I would tell Kraft and his buddy to pound sand if they proposed any backdoor deal.   Brady should care about himself, after this setup.  Brady owes NOTHING to Kraft, nothing to the league and nothing to Belichick.
Even a one game suspension - given the charges leveled at Brady - is without precedent.

Precedent doesn't matter to Goodell. Obviously. He just makes up whatever penalty he wants.
 

TheoShmeo

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Myt1 said:
If Kraft isn't doing anything wrong by acting like this, then why would Tom publicizing it "expose" him?
 
I'm less confused by the hypothetical scenario than I am by the fact that you don't see that you're not even being internally logically consistent.
This isn't difficult Myt1. 
 
First, as I have said repeatedly, Kraft's presence or absence in this thing is a total side point.  Whether Kraft, Bob Weir, the ghost of Ken Stabler or you are the intermediary is not the main point.  The main point is that if Goodell is inclined to do anything other than rubber stamp Vincent -- a huge if, I would add -- someone will message to Tom or Tom's camp that the price of a reduction in the sentence to one or two games is that Tom doesn't litigate.  Maybe Kraft would indeed demur.  I don't think he would but I well understand the points made in this thread about that.  I still don't think it's preposterous that Kraft would get involved but I hear the arguments.
 
Second, and more squarely in response to your post, being cast as Goodell's errand boy could make Kraft look bad, even if there is technically nothing wrong with his behavior.  Sometimes people are made to look bad even when they have actually done nothing wrong. 
 
But again, I could be wrong on Kraft's involvement here in every way and it's utterly of no consequence to me.  To me, the point is that we're going to see  the 4 games upheld or a negotiated reduction.  How the latter comes about isn't material to me.  Seeing Kraft and Goodell together prompted me to say that perhaps Kraft will be the one to message to Brady, but I thought that message was coming Tom's way long before I made that comment.  
 

OnWisc

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If Brady accepts a suspension of more than a game, to many- myself included- it will be a tacit admission that something, somewhere, on the Patriots end wasn't quite as clean as we've been led to believe. It's not gonna happen.

If Brady is allowed to accept a one game suspension, it'll be a tacit admission by the NFL that they have nothing that will stand up in court and that their touted and pricey Wells reports was basically a failed PR exercise. Brady taking the one game will be viewed as not an admission of any guilt, but rather as the safest play when dealing with a guy known for making bizarre and irrational decisions. And Brady still won't accept one game, anyway.

And that's before even getting to the longer term Union vs owners facet of the whole thing.

TheoShmeo said:
Whether Kraft, Bob Weir, the ghost of Ken Stabler or you are the intermediary is not the main point.
I think this depends. If Weir just delivers the settlement offer verbatim, then I agree. If however he does like China Cat>Settlement Offer>China Cat, then wraps up with like Help/Slip/Frank then, to me, that kinda becomes the main point.
 

MuppetAsteriskTalk

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Since we're all just fantasizing stuff at this point...
 
My fantasy #1 is the NFL offers some secret reduced penalty deal through backroom channels. The Brady camp secretly accepts it. Roger reduces the suspension to 2 games or whatever, and then bling blang blaow Brady camp sues anyway.
 
Fantasy #2 is that the NFL never offers a secret deal, but Brady's camp leaks a story about it anyway with just enough details to make the NFL look bad. Since info about offers are supposedly not admissible in court, I don't see how this could ever come back to bite them.
 
Fantasy #3 will have to stay private. But it does involve sharks with laser beams on their heads.
 

TheoShmeo

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OnWisc said:
I think this depends. If Weir just delivers the settlement offer verbatim, then I agree. If however he does like China Cat>Settlement Offer>China Cat, then wraps up with like Help/Slip/Frank then, to me, that kinda becomes the main point.
I dunno.  I think you need to consider whether Bob will let Trey sing any part of that.  If so, it changes everything.
 

Myt1

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TheoShmeo said:
This isn't difficult Myt1. 
 
First, as I have said repeatedly, Kraft's presence or absence in this thing is a total side point.  Whether Kraft, Bob Weir, the ghost of Ken Stabler or you are the intermediary is not the main point.  The main point is that if Goodell is inclined to do anything other than rubber stamp Vincent -- a huge if, I would add -- someone will message to Tom or Tom's camp that the price of a reduction in the sentence to one or two games is that Tom doesn't litigate.  Maybe Kraft would indeed demur.  I don't think he would but I well understand the points made in this thread about that.  I still don't think it's preposterous that Kraft would get involved but I hear the arguments.
 
Second, and more squarely in response to your post, being cast as Goodell's errand boy could make Kraft look bad, even if there is technically nothing wrong with his behavior.  Sometimes people are made to look bad even when they have actually done nothing wrong. 
 
But again, I could be wrong on Kraft's involvement here in every way and it's utterly of no consequence to me.  To me, the point is that we're going to see  the 4 games upheld or a negotiated reduction.  How the latter comes about isn't material to me.  Seeing Kraft and Goodell together prompted me to say that perhaps Kraft will be the one to message to Brady, but I thought that message was coming Tom's way long before I made that comment.  
It's not a total side point. Because it's the way that you chose to insulate Goodell from the likelihood that Brady would use it against him. Well, that and not really paying attention to the fact that settlement negotiations are admissible for all sorts of purposes.

This isn't your run of the mill dispute where splitting the baby or an expected value chart money settlement negotiation makes the parties seem reasonable and not wastrels of judicial resources in the eyes of the Court. It's a case in which a substantial part of Brady's case is going to be about bias in a quasi judicial process and a pattern of bad faith behavior on the part of the NFL. From the false leaks to the incorrect letters the gag order to the laughable Wells Report to the Vincent or Goodell issue. And now, you don't think that the supposedly neutral arbitrator offering a quid pro quo reduction in a suspension would affect the NFL's case at all.

I don't know what to tell you. I think you started with a half baked idea, got some good faith pushback, and doubled down instead of reexamining it.
 

Reverend

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Myt1 said:
It's not a total side point. Because it's the way that you chose to insulate Goodell from the likelihood that Brady would use it against him. Well, that and not really paying attention to the fact that settlement negotiations are admissible for all sorts of purposes.

This isn't your run of the mill dispute where splitting the baby or an expected value chart money settlement negotiation makes the parties seem reasonable and not wastrels of judicial resources in the eyes of the Court. It's a case in which a substantial part of Brady's case is going to be about bias in a quasi judicial process and a pattern of bad faith behavior on the part of the NFL. From the false leaks to the incorrect letters the gag order to the laughable Wells Report to the Vincent or Goodell issue. And now, you don't think that the supposedly neutral arbitrator offering a quid pro quo reduction in a suspension would affect the NFL's case at all.

I don't know what to tell you. I think you started with a half baked idea, got some good faith pushback, and doubled down instead of reexamining it.
The fact that one of the principals in such a settlement negotiation here is also the arbiter of the appeal seems pretty significant here and I think might make this case different. I actually have a hard time seeing how that wouldn't be relevant in court, i.e. the problematic incentives facing the hearer of the appeal and what that means for the fairness of the process.

Rules of evidence are in large measure based on jurisprudential principles. That Goodell is both the party to the negotiation and the hearer of the appeal changes the equation as to how they apply.
 

dcmissle

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AB in DC said:
I'm more confused by the fact that this thread has 100 new posts today after being silent for almost a full week.
 
(Man, I was really hoping this thread would fall to page 2 on the board.)
That's what one quite unremarkable Q and A with a reporter and a galling picture of Bob Kraft on a stroll with his tormentor can do.

Point taken. I putting the crack pipe down.
 

Leather

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I just don't see what negotiating would take place here. The entire point of suing would be to challenge the discipline on the basis that it is unacceptable on some level. Any offer from Goodell either is or isn't acceptable to Brady on its face, and Brady isn't going to serve a two game suspension and then sue. That's nonsensical. So there's no need for this hypothetical, secret, negotiating.

If Goodell doesn't want to get sued, he drops the suspension entirely. Any "trial balloon" to Brady or his lawyers would be met with "we will take you to court unless you vacate the suspension." There's nothing else to say.
 

Average Reds

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drleather2001 said:
I just don't see what negotiating would take place here. The entire point of suing would be to challenge the discipline on the basis that it is unacceptable on some level. Any offer from Goodell either is or isn't acceptable to Brady on its face, and Brady isn't going to serve a two game suspension and then sue. That's nonsensical. So there's no need for this hypothetical, secret, negotiating.

If Goodell doesn't want to get sued, he drops the suspension entirely.
 
Wish I had said it this clearly.
 
I too, will put down the crack pipe down and step away.
 

nighthob

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You can have my crack pipe when you pry it from my cold dead hands. Especially not today when it's filled with the delicious suffering of Nyets fans.
 

simplyeric

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geoduck no quahog said:
I agree with everyone who says the most important thing is the NFLPA and the Agreement.
 
A union can't sit back and allow its members to be punished/penalized for either un-proven acts and/or exercising their rights. While the NFL had every right to investigate and rule the way they did, the union has every right to stand up to unfair labor practices. 
 
In my opinion,
 
Brady couldn't care less about what the NFL did to Patriot's ownership -
 
and I even doubt he's that fussed about his "reputation", but as a member of a labor fraternity he has to stand up against arbitrary penalties. This is for the next player who refuses to hand over personal information without a legal order and the next player who gets suspended with a pay cut based on an arbitrary and unfair ruling. I'm surprised more players aren't rallying to Brady's side.
On the first bolded:
I think he might care about the first bolded line at least to the extent that it materially will affect his ability to win additional Superbowls in the future (if he believes that 1st round draft picks are important)
 
on the second:
I don't think it's purely an NFLPA thing for Brady.  I think that's part of it, sure, but I think this is probably very personal to him.  He's being called a cheater, and I think he takes that seriously.  
 
 

TheoShmeo said:
I don't see the purpose in dumping on RedOctober for making an off handed remark about essentially being sick, tired and exasperated by this ridiculous topic.
 
RedOctober needs no introduction around here.  He's clearly a passionate football/Pats fan.  He posts in this forum frequently.  This topic sucks ass.  It's totally insane.  The NFL managed to turn the world upside down and make one of the better guys in the NFL an object of ridicule for other players and fans.  It's a joke.  Who hasn't had moments of saying to themselves or maybe even out loud "enough of this already, I almost don't care"?  To turn that into snark about him not focusing on the season or giving up in December...come on already.  
 
I was just being snarky...I imagine he can take it.  But I've said it before: I'm of the exact opposite mindset from RedOctober.  While I find the content absurd, and it's frustrating as a fan, it's giving me the opportunity to think about Superbowl Championship Winning Tom Brady and the Patriots all during the off-season.  It really is making me enjoy the win way more than I would have otherwise.  That's totally crazy, when I think about it.  But there it is.  
 
I'm not saying I want it to drag on forever.  I'll be happy to see it end, but I don't think it is ending in the immediate future, and, well, so it goes...
 

joe dokes

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simplyeric said:
 
ok...what the fuck does this mean?
 
 
With regard to Kraft and Goodell, it could mean they love each other or that Kraft is simply a friend of the devil.
 

TheoShmeo

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That some or most here may see the scenario I painted as unlikely here doesn't change the very realistic possibility that one way or the other, Goodell has made it clear to Brady's camp that the suspension will not being reduced without his agreement not to continue the fight.  
 
Why is it nonsense for Goodell to view it that way?  In Goodell's shoes, who would want to cut the suspension only to watch Brady then litigate with Goodell already effectively admitting that the original sentence was flawed?  Wouldn't the better posture for Goodell in the face of litigation be for him to go in strong?  "We were right in the first place, we're right now, there was no new evidence, our process was sound, etc."
 
As to Brady, if he is uninterested in anything other than total exoneration, he simply says "no thank you" to whoever approaches him or his camp.  Easy.
 
As to Goodell dropping the suspension entirely, talk about dropping the crack pipe.  The notion that Goodell would do a complete about face is a joke.  The notion that he would look for a way to end this thing by putting a carrot in front of Brady is, despite all the rhetoric here, totally understandable.  If Goodell wants this thing to go away without litigation, the only realistic path is to secure a deal from Brady.  Now I agree that Brady is not likely to agree to that.  But that doesn't change the fact that Goodell has only one possible means of achieving that objective.
 
Myt1, you have accused me before of making the mistake of not just admitting that I am wrong when challenged.  If I thought I was wrong, I would do that.  Easily.  I have no problem admitting when I am wrong.  Most of us are wrong on a relatively frequent basis since we are not Spock or Belichick. 
 
I have re-examined aspects and adjusted aspects of my thinking in part.  For one, I think that Goodell is more likely just to uphold the 4 games and not even try for a deal.  If he does try for a deal, I hear the points about Kraft and think it is less likely than I did originally that Kraft would be the intermediary.  I don't think it's preposterous that Kraft would be involved and I think his relationship with Goodell and Brady makes it possible that he would do something in a very informal way.  But yup, there are risks, and it could easily be someone else.  Goodell could achieve insulation in a variety of ways that did not involve Kraft, including by having his lawyers have a hypothetical conversation with Brady's or the NFLPA, which is a frequently used tactic in negotiations.
 
PS: The talk about Goodell being both Judge and Litigant strikes me as somewhat academic.  While the situation is utterly FUBAR, the reality is that Goodell, by choosing to hear the appeal, put himself in exactly that position.  He is the Commissioner of the NFL and he's judging the case.  He cannot separate himself and I don't see him neatly separating his two roles.  This is messy.  It's a mess of his choosing.  But it's messy.    
 

simplyeric

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joe dokes said:
 
With regard to Kraft and Goodell, it could mean they love each other or that Kraft is simply a friend of the devil.
 
Ok..
 
um, can I ask:  How does it mean that.  Like, is that some sort of standard legal jargon/reference/shorthand  ?
 

Leather

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simplyeric said:
 
Ok..
 
um, can I ask:  How does it mean that.  Like, is that some sort of standard legal jargon/reference/shorthand  ?
 
Well, it's an old doctrine sometimes referred to as the "one man gathers what another man spills" canon.
 

TheoShmeo

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simplyeric said:
 
Ok..
 
um, can I ask:  How does it mean that.  Like, is that some sort of standard legal jargon/reference/shorthand  ?
Grateful Dead songs.  I made a reference to Bob Weir, and a few posters ran with it. 
 

Leather

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TheoShmeo said:
Grateful Dead songs.  I made a reference to Bob Weir, and a few posters ran with it. 
 
Ok. But what would be the answer to the answer man?
 

BusRaker

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simplyeric said:
Ok..
 
um, can I ask:  How does it mean that.  Like, is that some sort of standard legal jargon/reference/shorthand  ?
If I knew the way, I would take you there
 

lambeau

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Kraft last week posted Sally Jenkins' latest article calling TB's suspension an "abuse of power" on the Context website.
 
His chatting with Roger is like Trump donating to Senator Hillary--"I'm a businessman."
 

JeffLedbetter

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TheoShmeo said:
That some or most here may see the scenario I painted as unlikely here doesn't change the very realistic possibility that one way or the other, Goodell has made it clear to Brady's camp that the suspension will not being reduced without his agreement not to continue the fight.  
 
Why is it nonsense for Goodell to view it that way?  In Goodell's shoes, who would want to cut the suspension only to watch Brady then litigate with Goodell already effectively admitting that the original sentence was flawed?  Wouldn't the better posture for Goodell in the face of litigation be for him to go in strong?  "We were right in the first place, we're right now, there was no new evidence, our process was sound, etc."
 
As to Brady, if he is uninterested in anything other than total exoneration, he simply says "no thank you" to whoever approaches him or his camp.  Easy.
 
As to Goodell dropping the suspension entirely, talk about dropping the crack pipe.  The notion that Goodell would do a complete about face is a joke.  The notion that he would look for a way to end this thing by putting a carrot in front of Brady is, despite all the rhetoric here, totally understandable.  If Goodell wants this thing to go away without litigation, the only realistic path is to secure a deal from Brady.  Now I agree that Brady is not likely to agree to that.  But that doesn't change the fact that Goodell has only one possible means of achieving that objective.
 
Myt1, you have accused me before of making the mistake of not just admitting that I am wrong when challenged.  If I thought I was wrong, I would do that.  Easily.  I have no problem admitting when I am wrong.  Most of us are wrong on a relatively frequent basis since we are not Spock or Belichick. 
 
I have re-examined aspects and adjusted aspects of my thinking in part.  For one, I think that Goodell is more likely just to uphold the 4 games and not even try for a deal.  If he does try for a deal, I hear the points about Kraft and think it is less likely than I did originally that Kraft would be the intermediary.  I don't think it's preposterous that Kraft would be involved and I think his relationship with Goodell and Brady makes it possible that he would do something in a very informal way.  But yup, there are risks, and it could easily be someone else.  Goodell could achieve insulation in a variety of ways that did not involve Kraft, including by having his lawyers have a hypothetical conversation with Brady's or the NFLPA, which is a frequently used tactic in negotiations.
 
PS: The talk about Goodell being both Judge and Litigant strikes me as somewhat academic.  While the situation is utterly FUBAR, the reality is that Goodell, by choosing to hear the appeal, put himself in exactly that position.  He is the Commissioner of the NFL and he's judging the case.  He cannot separate himself and I don't see him neatly separating his two roles.  This is messy.  It's a mess of his choosing.  But it's messy.    
Why is it nonsensical? Because in hearing the appeal, Goodell's role should ONLY be to determine whether the punishment handed down by Vincent was appropriate to the "crime;" if not, whether it should be reduced, and whether an appropriate process was followed in arriving at the findings and the punishment. He absolutely should not be arriving at either conclusion based on whether Brady will continue to fight, which is his legal right. It would be the equivalent of a judge ruling a particular way on an appeal only if the party agreed not to appeal the decision to a higher court and not on the facts of the case.
 
Oh, and if you're the NFL and you don't want to answer to those types of standards (to which all levels of jurisprudence and most other types of governance are subject),  then don't entertain the fantasy that you have due process.
 

simplyeric

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JeffLedbetter said:
Why is it nonsensical? Because in hearing the appeal, Goodell's role should ONLY be to determine whether the punishment handed down by Vincent was appropriate to the "crime;" if not, whether it should be reduced, and whether an appropriate process was followed in arriving at the findings and the punishment. He absolutely should not be arriving at either conclusion based on whether Brady will continue to fight, which is his legal right. It would be the equivalent of a judge ruling a particular way on an appeal only if the party agreed not to appeal the decision to a higher court and not on the facts of the case.
 
Oh, and if you're the NFL and you don't want to answer to those types of standards (to which all levels of jurisprudence and most other types of governance are subject),  then don't entertain the fantasy that you have due process.
 
Do you think Goodell actually gives a rat's ass about due process?
 
He might care about being able to plausibly claim that there is some sort of due proces, but I don't think he cares if there actually is.  
 

jmm57

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Hardy suspension reduced to 4 games. Same as possibly being aware of footballs that may or may not have been deflated, I guess.
 

joe dokes

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JeffLedbetter said:
Why is it nonsensical? Because in hearing the appeal, Goodell's role should ONLY be to determine whether the punishment handed down by Vincent was appropriate to the "crime;" if not, whether it should be reduced, and whether an appropriate process was followed in arriving at the findings and the punishment. He absolutely should not be arriving at either conclusion based on whether Brady will continue to fight, which is his legal right. It would be the equivalent of a judge ruling a particular way on an appeal only if the party agreed not to appeal the decision to a higher court and not on the facts of the case.
 
Oh, and if you're the NFL and you don't want to answer to those types of standards (to which all levels of jurisprudence and most other types of governance are subject),  then don't entertain the fantasy that you have due process.
 
The analogy isn't perfect, but most plea agreements have an appellate waiver, so the prosecutor will not sign and the  judge will not accept the plea if the defendant does not agree to waive his appellate rights.
 

Ed Hillel

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jmm57 said:
Hardy suspension reduced to 4 games. Same as possibly being aware of footballs that may or may not have been deflated, I guess.
 
This is the first time I've thought they will reduce Brady's suspension. I don't see how you can keep Brady's punishment at the same level as Hardy's in a post Ray Rice world.
 

Average Reds

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Ed Hillel said:
 
This is the first time I've thought they will reduce Brady's suspension. I don't see how you can keep Brady's punishment at the same level as Hardy's in a post Ray Rice world.
 
Hardy had an independent arbitrator.
 
I do believe that if Goodell doesn't vacate the suspension altogether he's setting himself up to get stripped of his disciplinary authority in court.
 

NavaHo

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Hardy will be back for Dallas' week 5 game against the Patriots and QB (at the moment) Jimmy Garoppolo. The good news keeps coming!
 

pappymojo

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Average Reds said:
 
Hardy had an independent arbitrator.
 
I do believe that if Goodell doesn't vacate the suspension altogether he's setting himself up to get stripped of his disciplinary authority in court.
 
Best case scenario. 
 

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Average Reds said:
Hardy had an independent arbitrator.
 
Right, but I still think this puts pressure on Ol Rog to reduce Brady's. Then again, maybe I'm falling for the old logic trap, wherein I get duped by thinking Roger will do the logical thing, but I'd be surprised at this point if Brady's stayed at 4. Not shocked, mind you. Never shocked with this guy.
 

Joshv02

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Average Reds said:
 
Hardy had an independent arbitrator.
 
I do believe that if Goodell doesn't vacate the suspension altogether he's setting himself up to get stripped of his disciplinary authority in court.
Hardy had Herald Henderson - not very independent (which is a basis for why Peterson's penalty was overturned).  Plus, Henderson's opinion (which of course I haven't read) still gave 4 games, which was twice what was actually allowed (I believe) under the policy then in effect.  So, it certainly feels like an intellectually dishonest bullshit opinion - Henderson is not allowed to apply the new policy to past conduct (per the AP decision), so 4 games appears to be pulled out of the ether.  
 
Of course, the headlines are all about how it was a signficant reduction.  That's all we'll see if there is a Brady reduction, too. 
 

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Joshv02 said:
Hardy had Herald Henderson - not very independent (which is a basis for why Peterson's penalty was overturned).  Plus, Henderson's opinion (which of course I haven't read) still gave 4 games, which was twice what was actually allowed (I believe) under the policy then in effect.  So, it certainly feels like an intellectually dishonest bullshit opinion - Henderson is not allowed to apply the new policy to past conduct (per the AP decision), so 4 games appears to be pulled out of the ether.  
 
Of course, the headlines are all about how it was a signficant reduction.  That's all we'll see if there is a Brady reduction, too. 
 
Yeah, Hardy said he'd challenge anything over 2, so we'll see him in court, as well.
 

dcmissle

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The arbitrator, Harold Henderson, is a go-to Goodell guy when something is shipped out from under Roger.  If I recall correctly, he was overturned in the AP case after rubber stamping the suspension.
 
10 to 4 is a rather dramatic reduction.  It would be the equivalent to cutting Brady's suspension to a game and a half.
 
EDIT -- And this makes him eligible for game 5 vs the Pats, which could be Tom's first game, though I tend to doubt it. 
 
The entire offseason is apparently geared  to making BBTL heads explode.