I know we all like to denigrate anything or anyone associated with the New York Yankees, but if you take off your Red Sox Glasses for a minute, do you think Jeter should be in the Hall of Fame?
Derek Jeter: Do you think he's a Hall of Famer?
- Thread starter Lose Remerswaal
- Start date
Is this a serious question?
Aside from the insignia on his hat and uniform, what would hold Derek Jeter back from being a first-ballot, slam dunk Hall of Famer?
Aside from the insignia on his hat and uniform, what would hold Derek Jeter back from being a first-ballot, slam dunk Hall of Famer?
As much as I hate all things Yankees, and would love to see him have a repeat of the 2012 ALCS in the first game of the year and miss the rest of the season, and think he's horribly over-rated, there's no way that the answer to this isn't yes.
So I guess this is some sort of 'pink hat' test to see who really doesn't follow baseball and is only about the laundry. Cool. I guess.
Yeah I think he's the most over-hyped athlete in my lifetime but there's no doubt he belongs in the HOF.
John Marzano Olympic Hero said:
Mostly I agree. He will definitely be in on the first ballot and as someone mentioned yesterday perhaps be the first unanimous inductee.
But, if Jeter spent his career in Kansas City I very much doubt he would get the respect he current receives and would/could be more of a fringe candidate.
If he played in KC he definitely wouldn't have almost a full season's worth of excellent post-season stats. So yeah, that's probably true.
Really?
Derek Sanderson Jeter is a generational talent at one of the toughest positions in baseball. He's thrived on the biggest stage, and was a spark-plug for NY's offense for over 15 years. If he was drafted by the Red Sox, he'd be ballwashed the same, if not more, by the press and fanbase.
1st ballot HOF, one of the few bright spots in the steroid era. Classy guy who did his job.
That being said, I hate his guts and I'll be happy when that asshole retires.
Derek Sanderson Jeter is a generational talent at one of the toughest positions in baseball. He's thrived on the biggest stage, and was a spark-plug for NY's offense for over 15 years. If he was drafted by the Red Sox, he'd be ballwashed the same, if not more, by the press and fanbase.
1st ballot HOF, one of the few bright spots in the steroid era. Classy guy who did his job.
That being said, I hate his guts and I'll be happy when that asshole retires.
He could very well be the second best SS of all-time. I said this in the retirement thread, but outside of Wagner, you could easily make the case that he had the greatest overall career of any other Shortstop. Ripken was good but never great, Banks and A-Rod switched positions mid-career. Then you have Yount, Cronin, Ozzie Smith. Is Jeter any worse than those guys?
Kliq said:
Well Ripken averaged more WAR per year according to Fangraphs, if that means anything. He was about 4.6 per year while Jeter has been 4 per year.
Adirondack jack said:
Seriously? Because if he hit like this--as a shortstop--in KC: .312/.386/.446 he'd still go to the Hall of Fame in a landslide. Check out his regular season numbers, they are really, really good. He's probably a better version of Paul Molitor, who has numbers as close or worse than Jeter's (.306/.369/.448) and Molitor played in media meccas Milwaukee, Toronto and Minnesota yet still got into the HOF with 85% of the ballots on his first try.
So your assertion that Jeter would be a "fringe candidate" is laughable.
Kliq said:
Yount played about as much outfield as he did shortstop, so he's probably out. Ripken absolutely was great, there's a good case to be made that he actually was the best player in the league both times he won the MVP (and he probably could have won a third too). I would put him ahead of Jeter.
I voted definite first ballot, though I do find the discussion regarding his defensive issues interesting (particularly the WOWY discussion on Tango's site a while back; has that system been updated, improved or debunked in any way since?). Ultimately, I don't think we're at a point with those metrics that we can convincingly drop a guy who is above and beyond what is necessary offensively for a player to be considered a Hall of Famer.
He is definitely a firs ballot, slam dunk Hall of Famer.
I agree, however, that it's not his fault that:
1. He's not as good a defensive SS as the media make him out to be.
2. That he gets the level of attention he gets.
3. That he usually got credit from game commentators for "getting it all started" when he reached on a single and then someone hit a 3R HR.
Yet, I really dislike him because of that. Much like people dislike Manning for similar reasons. It only bothers me when blind fans actually claim he's the best SS in the history of ever (defensively), or when these same fans claim his famous "jump and throw" is the best play ever made by any player in baseball. The only "bad" thing he did is not switching positions when the Yankees acquired a clearly better defensive SS.
As a player he was classy. Reporters loved him because he never shied away from interviews or post game comments regardless of what happened, and even Tito acknowledged he was a great guy, and made it a point to "salute" him before his first AB.
I agree, however, that it's not his fault that:
1. He's not as good a defensive SS as the media make him out to be.
2. That he gets the level of attention he gets.
3. That he usually got credit from game commentators for "getting it all started" when he reached on a single and then someone hit a 3R HR.
Yet, I really dislike him because of that. Much like people dislike Manning for similar reasons. It only bothers me when blind fans actually claim he's the best SS in the history of ever (defensively), or when these same fans claim his famous "jump and throw" is the best play ever made by any player in baseball. The only "bad" thing he did is not switching positions when the Yankees acquired a clearly better defensive SS.
As a player he was classy. Reporters loved him because he never shied away from interviews or post game comments regardless of what happened, and even Tito acknowledged he was a great guy, and made it a point to "salute" him before his first AB.
Merkle's Boner said:
Someone older who saw more of Brett in his prime can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that Brett was a much better player than Jeter, especially if you look at their prime years.
EvilEmpire said:
John Marzano Olympic Hero said:
His regular season numbers are .312/.386/.446, and his postseason numbers (over 158 games, so basically a full season to EvilEmpire's point) are .308/.374/.465. That is remarkably consistent, given the fact that the pitching in the postseason is likely to be so much better.
WAR (BRef) really doesn't like his defense. O WAR has him as the 21st best player of all time, by WAR for position players he drops all the way to 58th. That is a Manny-esque drop (Manny goes from 31st by O WAR to 70th by position player WAR).
Just to clarify what I posted earlier, I was referring to the "I very much doubt he would get the respect he current receives" and not the "would/could be more of a fringe candidate" part of AJ's post.Was (Not Wasdin) said:
Jeter's numbers are great and would easily get him into the hall, regardless of team, but I think the excellent postseason play really elevates him on the respect scale with fans and peers alike.
Obviously, most players don't get as much opportunity on a postseason stage.
Jeter managed to somehow both be one of the 10 best players to ever play his position, in history, while also becoming profoundly overrated at the same time.
He's not responsible for the latter. Of the former, one could argue that he really should not have been a short stop over his entire career, and subsequently, he accumulated a lot of numbers for a shortstop, that he shouldn't have.
However, that's a really minor criticism. The guy posted a career wRC+ over 120, over a long career. If he was an all hit no field outfielder, he'd still have been a really, really good ball player. Even if he was an abortion at SS, one would have to think that he'd have been a fine 2b or even a plus corner outfielder.
He's not responsible for the latter. Of the former, one could argue that he really should not have been a short stop over his entire career, and subsequently, he accumulated a lot of numbers for a shortstop, that he shouldn't have.
However, that's a really minor criticism. The guy posted a career wRC+ over 120, over a long career. If he was an all hit no field outfielder, he'd still have been a really, really good ball player. Even if he was an abortion at SS, one would have to think that he'd have been a fine 2b or even a plus corner outfielder.
Brianish said:
Ding, ding, ding. The way he's mentioned in the same breath as Ruth, Dimaggio, Gehrig and Mantle among Yankee greats is beyond the pale, and completely misses the point of (a) how dominant those other players were in their respective eras, and (b) that each of them to varying degrees changed the way the game is played. But yeah, there's no question Jeter belongs in the hall.
One more thing (and this is directed more at the poll structure and general fan behavior than at Brianish): I thought our SoSH HOF debates from a decade ago dispensed once and for all with this absurd fucking notion of "first ballot" vs "not first ballot". Either you're a Hall of Famer, or you're not. There's no gray area, or degrees of qualification for the honor. Using one's vote to arbitrarily assign some other classification by delaying a candidate's addition is absurd, and was just another media creation to make the process all about themselves. There is nothing in the HOF's bylaws and election process that addresses it other than a cap on the number of players you can put on a ballot. The bottom line is that by the time Jeter is eligible there won't be 10 more deserving players up for induction.
Kliq said:
Offensively? It's certainly a worthwhile debate.
Defensively? He isn't even in the top 50. Jeter has always had excellent on-field instincts and decision making, along with solid fundamentals in his glove work, ball transfer, footwork, DP turns, etc. But his speed, range, arm, and leaping ability deserted him long, long ago. He's been chronically overrated and canonized by the baseball media at large and the NY media in particular for his defense for far too long, and it's absolutely ridiculous.
And since defense is the single most important contribution a shortstop can make to his team, I couldn't even put Jeter in the Top 10 overall.
I'm going to go ahead a ask anyone who claims that "Ripken was good, but never great" to take a look at his 3 best seasons, adjusted to era.
The dude was a beast. His later years were ugly, but he was an exceptional player in the 80's and early 90's.
(f)WAR has it's issues, but just as a quick point of reference:
If you were to rank Ripken and Jeter's 13 best seasons, by (f)WAR. Ripken wins 12 times, on 13, they're tied. 1980's baseball was boring, but I think we tend to overlook how great guys like Ripken and Boggs were.
The dude was a beast. His later years were ugly, but he was an exceptional player in the 80's and early 90's.
(f)WAR has it's issues, but just as a quick point of reference:
If you were to rank Ripken and Jeter's 13 best seasons, by (f)WAR. Ripken wins 12 times, on 13, they're tied. 1980's baseball was boring, but I think we tend to overlook how great guys like Ripken and Boggs were.
Always ran out every ground ball, hard, to first base. An awful lot of ballplayers, much less superstars, don't do that.
Beyond that, I agree with everybody in the thread. Not his fault he's overrated.
The one black mark I'd put on him is that, if he were really the selfless win-at-all-costs captain so many make him out to be, he would have graciously ceded shortstop to Rodriguez when he came over from Texas. Jeter would likely have been a better 3B or CF than he was a SS.
Beyond that, I agree with everybody in the thread. Not his fault he's overrated.
The one black mark I'd put on him is that, if he were really the selfless win-at-all-costs captain so many make him out to be, he would have graciously ceded shortstop to Rodriguez when he came over from Texas. Jeter would likely have been a better 3B or CF than he was a SS.
I have no issue with the argument that Jeter should have left SS, a long time ago. However, can we be certain that A-Rod wasn't already getting too big for shortstop?
UZR liked him through 2004, but afterwards, his defense at short took a pretty big hit.
UZR liked him through 2004, but afterwards, his defense at short took a pretty big hit.
His defense for sure lacked in recent years, but for the most part he was a solid defender. He is 23rd all-time in career fielding percentage at SS (when you make the compromise that the player must have at least 10 years under his belt). His range was poor at the end, but in his prime he was at least an average defensive SS. To not have him in your all-time top 10 is kind of crazy, but to each his own.
Quick case against Ripken: He had some fabulous peak years, but the rest of his career was pretty average. He started very hot, as good as any SS ever, but by the late 1980s (with the exception of his 1991 and 1999 seasons he was a pretty average player. Despite playing the offensive explosion era, Ripken has way, way too many seasons where he he .260 with 20 homers with an OPS under .800. Jeter never had such a gap between his good and his bad years, and Jeter never had as many bad years as well. Ripken also is all-time career leader in GIDP, for whatever that is worse. Ripken only hit .276 for his career, only a little bit better than the league average mark of .264. He also only hit 30 homers once and never had an OBP over .380 (Jeter did that 8 times). Ripken is a better defensive SS than Jeter, but like Jeter he was downgraded by age and eventually moved to 3B.
Ripken might be better than Jeter, but if he is, I don't think he is ahead by that much.
Quick case against Ripken: He had some fabulous peak years, but the rest of his career was pretty average. He started very hot, as good as any SS ever, but by the late 1980s (with the exception of his 1991 and 1999 seasons he was a pretty average player. Despite playing the offensive explosion era, Ripken has way, way too many seasons where he he .260 with 20 homers with an OPS under .800. Jeter never had such a gap between his good and his bad years, and Jeter never had as many bad years as well. Ripken also is all-time career leader in GIDP, for whatever that is worse. Ripken only hit .276 for his career, only a little bit better than the league average mark of .264. He also only hit 30 homers once and never had an OBP over .380 (Jeter did that 8 times). Ripken is a better defensive SS than Jeter, but like Jeter he was downgraded by age and eventually moved to 3B.
Ripken might be better than Jeter, but if he is, I don't think he is ahead by that much.
Brett was better, and I say that as a Yankee fan. Power hitter, great hitter, excellent in the field. He is more of a legend than Jeter will ever be.glennhoffmania said:
He's the Nolan Ryan of hitters. A slam-dunk HOFer much of whose career achievement is tied up in longevity. See also: Pete Rose.
Yes, Brett was better. And Jeter in his prime was above average defensively, but no great shakes. Ozzie Smith was the best I ever saw defensively, no close second. But there have been plenty of guys as good or better than Jeter (Belanger, Aparicio,...the list goes on).
What made Jeter great IMHO was his ability to rise to the occasion. That play in Oakland to nail Jeremy Giambi at the plate is a case in point. I don't recall Jeter ever making a dumb play or a routine error on the big stage. He probably did, but I can't remember a single one.
What made Jeter great IMHO was his ability to rise to the occasion. That play in Oakland to nail Jeremy Giambi at the plate is a case in point. I don't recall Jeter ever making a dumb play or a routine error on the big stage. He probably did, but I can't remember a single one.
Brickowski said:
Except of course for Jeter's failure to rise to the occasion and switch positions when the Yankees acquired a superior offensive and defensive SS in Alex Rodriguez. Interesting how the words offensive and defensive would come to characterize A-Rod in a different way later on...
mabrowndog said:
I feel there's a fascinating debate to be had on this aspect of the question, mostly because Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio and Mantle played with (by a quick and dirty count) at least 10 hall of fame quality players each on their same team at the same time during their careers. Maybe DiMaggio played with the least overall but Ruth played with Gehrig and then add Dickey, etc. Mantle played with a team illegally stacked with the best players that could be bought from Kansas City, Ford, Berra, etc.
Jeter played with Rivera - maybe the least impactful (in terms of playing time/on-the-field innings-played) and then a handful of other hall of famers like Clemens (other places), Arod (other places), and some other great but not hall of fame players.
Or am I not adjusting for era properly?
Corsi said:
If the topic needs to be considered then I think the thread should be renamed to "Do you think he's a unanimous Hall of Famer?"
I hope this question was an attempt to suss out those needing a good banning.
He's a Hall of Famer. He's gonna go in on the first ballot. And anyone who bitches about that needs a brain scan.
He's a Hall of Famer. He's gonna go in on the first ballot. And anyone who bitches about that needs a brain scan.
He's a Hall of Famer, there's no need to punish him for the stupidity of voters in the past, present, and the future. He should go in on his first try since why the heck not? He's one of the top 10 SS of all time. Ranking him in a top 'whatever' list for SS and players in general will be be a little more interesting though. He was hyped up though, like all players in big markets are.
His JAWS is a bit interesting if anyone wants to take a look: http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_SS.shtml
Worse than Trammell, and a similar peak 7 year WAR to Garciaparra and Ozzie Smith.
His JAWS is a bit interesting if anyone wants to take a look: http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_SS.shtml
Worse than Trammell, and a similar peak 7 year WAR to Garciaparra and Ozzie Smith.
Thank Christ we have baseball, regardless that it's meaningless fungo bat baseball, to talk about starting tomorrow.
What's a clear sign that winter is wearing on all of us? "Is Jeter a Hall of Famer?"
Bring on the summer!
What's a clear sign that winter is wearing on all of us? "Is Jeter a Hall of Famer?"
Bring on the summer!
What brought on this question? What brought it on was all the bullshit in the Jeter's retiring thread, and I wanted folks to take a step back and really figure out where he belongs in the grand scheme of baseball. And I was really more interested in the second question, but the first one would catch more attention.
I'd say all these replies and over 135 votes in 4 hours show that it was a worthwhile discussion.
I picked "maybe not first ballot" because I can foresee a scenario where there is Yankee backlash that puts him off a year. If I had to bet, though, I'd bet first year inductee.
I'd say all these replies and over 135 votes in 4 hours show that it was a worthwhile discussion.
I picked "maybe not first ballot" because I can foresee a scenario where there is Yankee backlash that puts him off a year. If I had to bet, though, I'd bet first year inductee.
Here's how the conversation needs to go:
Team {coach/manager/GM} : We need you to switch positions {or make whatever other change the team needs the player to make}.
Player: I don't want to switch.
Team: We understand you feel that way, we respect your competitive drive, but this is a team game, and this is how we put the best team on the field, so you are going to switch.
If the Yankee organization didn't have that conversation with Jeter, it's not Jeter's fault. He thought of himself as a SS and that's where he wanted to play. They could have moved him and ARod around. They chose not to. It's on them.
You can say the same thing about RGIII wanting to play through injury at the end of last year, and about hundreds of other situations. Bottom line is that even players as vigorously ball-washed as was Jeter are, at the end of the day, employees. It's the responsibility of the team to take whatever action it sees fit, even if (especially if?) a big player's ego might be bruised.
Team {coach/manager/GM} : We need you to switch positions {or make whatever other change the team needs the player to make}.
Player: I don't want to switch.
Team: We understand you feel that way, we respect your competitive drive, but this is a team game, and this is how we put the best team on the field, so you are going to switch.
If the Yankee organization didn't have that conversation with Jeter, it's not Jeter's fault. He thought of himself as a SS and that's where he wanted to play. They could have moved him and ARod around. They chose not to. It's on them.
You can say the same thing about RGIII wanting to play through injury at the end of last year, and about hundreds of other situations. Bottom line is that even players as vigorously ball-washed as was Jeter are, at the end of the day, employees. It's the responsibility of the team to take whatever action it sees fit, even if (especially if?) a big player's ego might be bruised.
Definitely a HOF'er on the basis of his counting stats, and he will be a 1st ballot entry due to the hype and rings.
He was a poor defensive SS, albeit sure handed, who was a good hitter although not elite. As a hitter playing in the greatest offensive era in modern times (post segregation) he ranked 31st in batting runs from 1995-2013. WAR has a bit of a bias to IF'ers (ex 1B) IMO due to positional adjustments so he comes off great in the WAR rankings, and that makes him more of a slamdunk 1st ballot HOF'er than he probably is. I remember not too long ago some would argue he was the 4th best SS in the AL after Arod, Nomar, Tejeda.
Don't get me wrong, my only argument is that he is probably not the slam dunk 1st ballot HOF'er the consensus has him to be, not that he is not a HOF'er.
How can the greatest ambassador in the game not get in on the 1st ballot?
He was a poor defensive SS, albeit sure handed, who was a good hitter although not elite. As a hitter playing in the greatest offensive era in modern times (post segregation) he ranked 31st in batting runs from 1995-2013. WAR has a bit of a bias to IF'ers (ex 1B) IMO due to positional adjustments so he comes off great in the WAR rankings, and that makes him more of a slamdunk 1st ballot HOF'er than he probably is. I remember not too long ago some would argue he was the 4th best SS in the AL after Arod, Nomar, Tejeda.
Don't get me wrong, my only argument is that he is probably not the slam dunk 1st ballot HOF'er the consensus has him to be, not that he is not a HOF'er.
How can the greatest ambassador in the game not get in on the 1st ballot?
I wonder how many years Jeter could have extended his career if the MFY never ARod and Jeter moved over to 3rd? I'm sure he doesn't break his ankle, and has at least 3-4 more years in the 3B spot.
There should've been an added question how how much Jeter's adoration will make you vomit in your mouth over the next season. Options being A little bit, a lotta bit, not at all cuz I'm a f'n MFY fan.
Was (Not Wasdin) said:
OWAR has a positional adjustment. Looking at offense alone, he is ranked 119th in batting runs (1 more than Darryl Strawberry) 341 in OPS+. and 86th in OBP (tied with Bernie Williams) .
One of the things that bothers me, is when people attempt to compare him to other players like Ripken and such, and some people respond by saying, well, Ripken didn't spend his whole career at Shortstop, whereas Jeter did.
The thing is though - Jeter shouldn't have either. Even ignoring how bad he was at Shortstop himself, he should have been moved off of Shortstop 10 years ago, when the Yankees got Rodriguez. The fact that he didn't made his team worse, and made himself worse. And I definitely don't see that as something which should be credited to him as something good.
The thing is though - Jeter shouldn't have either. Even ignoring how bad he was at Shortstop himself, he should have been moved off of Shortstop 10 years ago, when the Yankees got Rodriguez. The fact that he didn't made his team worse, and made himself worse. And I definitely don't see that as something which should be credited to him as something good.