It's pretty simple: it's called the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Greatest Players. And there's a reason for that.
Derek Jeter: Countdown to Retirement
- Thread starter jon abbey
- Start date
- Status
JohntheBaptist said:
The Hall is not an historical record, otherwise Rose and Clemens and Bonds would be in there. There has always been a strong popularity contest vibe to the Hall, beginning with the election of Rabbitt Maranville and going all the way through the present day.
It's a bit outdated now, but I would highly recommend Bill James' Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame? (also published as The Politics of Glory) to get a fuller view of the way the Hall operates. It's definitely not a place for the historical record, or at least not primarily one.
NatetheGreat said:
Yeah, no. Sorry. In my eyes and by their rate stats and WAR Larkin and Jeter were both pretty much the same player. Jeter had better teammates, which unless he was also the GM was completely out of his control, so I'm unwilling to overly praise him for being in the postseason so much. I'm certainly willing to acknowledge that he did perform well in all his postseason opportunities, however.
You make a great point re: Clemens/ Rose/ Bonds, and I think they should be in there because the Hall seeks to be an historical record.Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
I've read the book. Nothing about it suggested a lack of that ideal, just a failure in implementing it. And whatever it is, a vessel for measuring a player's worth it certainly is not. Jeter's postseason work doesn't get subjugated in the consideration because Barry Larkin played for mediocre teams.
One thing I was thinking is that Jeter does have to be considered a member of one shortlist: Notable players for hated Boston rivals who over time earned the respect of Boston fans. The rest of the list would seem to include Mariano, Magic Johnson, possibly Peyton Manning at this point...anyone else? Have fans reached the point where they actually respect Kobe? What about Lebron? I don't think they ever really hit that point with Kareem. They certainly didn't with, say, Ladanian Tomlinson or Roger Clemens. Basically of players who had a good long run of making Boston fans say "man fuck that guy", who else has finished their career with the sort of (grudging, admittedly) respect Jeter seems to be getting?
It's a museum run by an accountant.
Best line of the book among great, great lines.
His predictions for future years is a hoot.
Best line of the book among great, great lines.
His predictions for future years is a hoot.
It wouldn't shock me if Jeter is dragged into the booth or into the postseason broadcasts in some way. There's simply no way they'll allow for his passing into retirement without beating us over the head with it.
I could be wrong, but I'd rather be pleasantly surprised than endlessly disappointed.
I could be wrong, but I'd rather be pleasantly surprised than endlessly disappointed.
I doubt it, he's terrible behind a microphone.
I hope the focus will be on the teams that are in as all of them have compelling enough stories for the broadcasters not to have to rely on talking about the teams that are not there--including the absent (non-)defending champions.
I hope the focus will be on the teams that are in as all of them have compelling enough stories for the broadcasters not to have to rely on talking about the teams that are not there--including the absent (non-)defending champions.
Derek Jeter is incapable of saying anything interesting even when the subject at hand is Derek Jeter. The idea of turning him into a studio talking head makes about as much sense as giving Pete Sampras his own talk show or something.
I wasn't sure where to put this or if it really matters, but here are two things I was told today that are a microcosm of why this is infuriating to live through.
Yankee fan #1: (This is in response to KO's rant) And then there was the ultimate fuck you last night- Jeter proving once again why it's not all about where he sits on lists of all time WAR, OPS, or whatever but about how he shines when the spotlight is the brightest.
Yankee fan #2: Jeter didn't want to play SS this weekend at Fenway, but he decided he may because he knows that Sox fans want to see him play SS one last time.
I don't think I ever heard stuff like this about any athlete before ever. Not Jordan, Gretzky, Magic, Larry, Pedro, Emmitt, Marino, Elway, Montana- no one. I have no problem having a discussion about Jeter's accomplishments, of which there are obviously many. But when I have to listen to shit about shining in spotlights and doing Sox fans a favor by letting them see him play one last time, I give up.
Yankee fan #1: (This is in response to KO's rant) And then there was the ultimate fuck you last night- Jeter proving once again why it's not all about where he sits on lists of all time WAR, OPS, or whatever but about how he shines when the spotlight is the brightest.
Yankee fan #2: Jeter didn't want to play SS this weekend at Fenway, but he decided he may because he knows that Sox fans want to see him play SS one last time.
I don't think I ever heard stuff like this about any athlete before ever. Not Jordan, Gretzky, Magic, Larry, Pedro, Emmitt, Marino, Elway, Montana- no one. I have no problem having a discussion about Jeter's accomplishments, of which there are obviously many. But when I have to listen to shit about shining in spotlights and doing Sox fans a favor by letting them see him play one last time, I give up.
I'm guessing you probably hear more stupid shit from Yankee fans in your daily life because you probably say more stupid shit to Yankee fans in your daily life. You rant and rave in pretty much every Jeter thread here. I bet you can't resist in person as well. If you changed allegiances, you'd fit in at nyyfans pretty well.
Yeah you got me, EE. I asked someone if they saw the KO clip. That was the response. I didn't say a word to the second guy. He sought me out to tell me his opinion. In other words, fuck off.
I hope the "but the rings!" argument has legs. Buster Posey and Madison Bumgarner both have 2 and I'd like to attend their HoF induction ceremonies.
jon abbey said:
That's what I thought too. I don't know where this guy is getting his info from.
Be more fitting if they brought Vinatieri back to kick the game winning field goal, right?NatetheGreat said:
Just wait until FOX has Cap'n Jeets in the broadcast booth.Flunky said:
He doesn't have to be good, Fox doesn't give two f*cks about good broadcasting, There merely want him there so they can talk about his accomplishments as a baseball diety.
drleather2001 said:
Eh, no big deal. It's 98% in good fun. Hopefully the frequency decreases after this weekend. Maybe we can have more discussions about ARod around the office in the near future.
Here's a neat piece of trivia:
Which team does Jeter have the lowest career OPS against (min. of 100 plate appearances)?
Which team does Jeter have the lowest career OPS against (min. of 100 plate appearances)?
Your Boston Red Sox
The Sox are also the only team that he slugged under .400 against. And this is hard to believe, but his career OPS in Fenway was < .700 (.698; unless he has a good weekend)
The Sox are also the only team that he slugged under .400 against. And this is hard to believe, but his career OPS in Fenway was < .700 (.698; unless he has a good weekend)
Wingack said:
How is he an ambassador for the game?
Name one philanthropic endeavor Jeter has performed. Name one good will tour Jeter has done. Has Jeter ever gone out of his way to do anything other than play SS for the New York Yankees?
Derek Jeter you are talking about never existed. He is myth made up by the New York Media that somehow gets echoed by the National Media. He is not charismatic or endearing. He dates IT girls primarily so they can stay on Page Six.
Derek Jeter's main accomplishments were being a great (not all time great) hitting poor fielding shortstop with incredible health and being part of five winning teams. There was never a single season where he was the best player in his position in baseball let alone the best player in his league. His most memorable playoff moment "The Flip" had him severely out of position and lucking into an errant throw.
Lets remember at one point Derek Jeter was the second highest paid player in all of sports. His wasn't even the second best player at his position at the time.
EvilEmpire said:
Ok then Derek Jeter is not even close to David Ortiz.
To be fair their contributions on the field are probably about the same.
Jeter's Turn 2 Foundation has raised over $17M in grants for children in NY, NJ, Tampa and Michigan since 1996.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_2_Foundation
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_2_Foundation
The most famous players in any sport always become its representatives to some extent. Those who can occupy that position for a long period of time without embarrassing themselves, their team and the league tend to receive the "ambassador" label, which basically says "you were super duper famous and you didn't fuck it up by being an obvious asshole" (a standard which a surprising number of athletes are incapable of meeting). Peyton Manning is a similar kind of "ambassador for the game".
Basically if you're one of the small handful of athletes who even elderly mother in laws who know nothing of sports can name, and said mother in laws are likely to also say something like "I always liked him" or "He seems nice", then congrats you're an ambassador. Derek Jeter is perhaps the living embodiment of this phenomenon. There are probably semi-sentient creatures far under the ocean who have never seen light who have heard of Jeter and that he's "classy" or "plays the right way."
drleather2001 said:
Again... wow. It absolutely isn't. Particularly because his point was, at least based on his work here, that glen should strike no one as just lookin' to have a rational discussion about Derek Jeter. Sorry, glen.
terrynever said:
Look I really don't want to tear apart a charitable organization that has apparently done well, but creating a charity that you place you entire family on the board isn't exactly an outstanding athlete move. Yes it is great his father who actually is a substance abuse social work with a PhD is running it properly and not turning it tax shelter to pay off his family. But I mean 17 million from a guy like Jeter. I really just shrug. That is not a lot when consider how much he makes as well as how many high income people would pay thousands just to shake his hand.
Once again I am sure it does outstanding work, and it is run by someone qualified but this not an example of how Jeter somehow separated himself from the other mortals who place baseball.
Once again the myth of Jeter doesn't exist.
When we start dismissing a $17 million foundation that appears to be properly run as something trivial or insisting that Jeter should do better, I think we might have jumped the shark.
Jesus, I can't believe I'm actually ending my participation in this thread by defending Derek Jeter. I want to go wash my brain out with soap.
Jesus, I can't believe I'm actually ending my participation in this thread by defending Derek Jeter. I want to go wash my brain out with soap.
I searched the Internet and can't find a negative article on Turn 2. That bastard Jeter must be hiding something. The NY Daily News donated $22,000 to the fund on Tuesday and kissed his ass in its article. All the fund does is educate kids about drugs and prod them to do better in school. Jesus. What is wrong with that guy!
TomRicardo said:
Amazingly Jeter has more postseason home runs than Ortiz (20 to 17), admittedly in close to twice the ABs but still.
I would be pretty happy to never ever ever talk about Derek Jeter again, but I do think that postseason performance and participation matters a lot more than it's generally being given credit for here. I personally don't care much about the Hall of Fame and who gets in or doesn't, but guys like Schilling and Beckett and Ortiz all were incredible in multiple postseasons, and to me that is a big part of their resumes, same with Jeter, less consistently spectacular, but his counting numbers are even more impressive in the postseason than they are in the regular season (and those are pretty damn impressive too).
Still so excited to lock every Jeter thread on Monday...
(Also, just to be crystal clear, I would have rather rooted for Ortiz on my team than Jeter if given the choice, despite them being at opposite ends of the defensive spectrum. Unless you're Michael Jordan, I can't stand the cultivated bland public persona, give me Ortiz or Shaq any day.)
The Dive hype was a joke too. As that picture up thread shows, he caught the ball 75 feet from the wall and his momentum carries into the stands.
Yeah, Jeets
Yeah, Jeets
terrynever said:
Nothing the foundation is fine but I mean he did the bare minimum to allow his dad to do outstanding work.
There is nothing wrong with Jeter but he simply isn't the baseball god Fox will try to make us believe he is.
- Status