TomRicardo said:
As I noted in another Jeter thread, Joe Torre insists that is a play that his teams always practiced. He was not out of position.
NatetheGreat said:
This is very well said.
Derek Jeter: Countdown to Retirement
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As I noted in another Jeter thread, Joe Torre insists that is a play that his teams always practiced. He was not out of position.
This is very well said.
As has been pointed out here and elsewhere, he's virtually tied with Larkin and Alan Trammell. Was Trammell an all-time once-a-generation talent?HillysLastWalk said:
TomRicardo said:
For nearly 20 years he was the most famous and most recognizable player in baseball and not for any negative reasons.
He was not the most famous player in baseball for nearly 20 years. All that Bonds, McGwire, Sosa stuff really happened. And ARod was probably more famous for a few years, too.Wingack said:
Here's a story from 2010, when his Q score was behind a 100 year-old Nolan Ryan, Ripken, and Griffey.
http://m.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2010/06/20100607/Marketingsponsorship/Penalty-Drop-Tiger-Woods-Plummets-On-Sports-Q-Scores-List.aspx?
Stop thinking that what's true in NYC is true for the world.
Have all those guys been playing for the past 20 years and been viewed in a positive light? Sure at different times other players have been more popular but I would say that no player has been as consistently popular over that span, and not for any negative reasons, as Jeter has. And that is why we are all being bombarded by the Jeter-praiseathon.
That's not what you wrote. You said he was the most famous and recognizable player in baseball for nearly twenty years. Which is not true, or even close to true. Then you tried to amplify the significance of that fallacy by parroting the "doing it the right way" nonsense.
As for "positive light," from 2009:
Nolan Ryan’s 37 and Cal Ripken Jr.’s 35 topped the MLB category. Albert Pujols is the top active player with a 26. Derek Jeter, widely regarded as the game’s most marketable player, saw his positive Q decrease from 28 to 20, where he is now tied with Mariano Rivera. Additionally, Jeter’s negative Q of 26 now exceeds his positive score.
Nolan Ryan’s 37 and Cal Ripken Jr.’s 35 topped the MLB category. Albert Pujols is the top active player with a 26. Derek Jeter, widely regarded as the game’s most marketable player, saw his positive Q decrease from 28 to 20, where he is now tied with Mariano Rivera. Additionally, Jeter’s negative Q of 26 now exceeds his positive score.
WayBackVazquez said:
First, I don't live in the NYC area. Second according to the article it looks like he has the highest Q-score of any ACTIVE player at the time (higher than Pujols)? Am I understanding that wrong?
WayBackVazquez said:
I wrote "not for any negative reasons" like being on the nightly news every night for PED use. I imagine non-baseball fans might know those names or recognize their faces from that more so than Jeter who they may recognize from being plastered all over commercials.
Yes, you are. First, Griffey was active. Second, both Griffey and Pujols were considerably higher the year before. Was it for nearly 20 years, or since 2010 or so?Wingack said:
What did this guy do other than show up and play at a high level? The ambassador talk is just Peter King-level horse shit to make people feel good. He has gotten a ton of mileage out of not being a fuck up but when you get down to it, he wasn't outspoken about anything, didn't do anything extra to promote the game , and didn't do anything other than worry about #2 and his team. Which, again, is fine, but all this other stuff is a fan/media creation that has gotten out of control over the years.
First, when dealing with fWAR, they arent virtually tied. Jeter has a +10 edge.WayBackVazquez said:
Second, I do like that Jeters WAR is defined more by his offense, than defense, especially when the offensive compnent of WAR is more accurate, and the defensive compnent has come under fire and is less accurate. So is it not reasonable to say that some of these shortstops that we are comparing, may have over inflated WAR's?
Third, its not out of the question to say that out of the past twenty years, Jeter has been the best shortstop in baseball. Im defining a generation as twenty year time frames. This is what I mean when I say that. Being that Trammell had contemporaries like Ripken and Smith, the answer might be no (for him).
Fourth, then why do really smart analysts like Dave Cameron say things like this:
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/derek-jeter-announces-impending-retirement/
So, yeah, essentially posting the 2nd greatest WAR of any shorstop over the past 100 years is pretty damn fucking impressive. Wouldnt you think?
Got it. Bwar only counts when it helps you; defense only matters when it helps you; and having the "best war for a SS in the last 100 years" makes you a generational talent, even when the guy above you played at the same time, and a guy behind you who is about 1 war behind doesn't even get in the hall.
Makes perfect sense.
Makes perfect sense.
WayBackVazquez said:
I don't know man, I am not a Q score expert like you (for what it is work according to this article Jeter has the highest Q score of ANY active athlete besides Peyton Manning right now in 2014.) All I know is, the dude was marketed by brands from across the country like he was the most popular player for a very long time.
I really don't care enough about Jeter to get all worked up about this back and forth. I happen to think he was the most recognizable and marketed player in the game (if I am wrong I am OK with that) and if he wasn't that guy he was one of a handful of guys that rotated as being the face of the game at one time or another. And that is why he is getting this sendoff.
Are you being obtuse on purpose? Or is that how you roll?WayBackVazquez said:
Does ignoring and twisting the things I say help you sleep at night? Why not answer some of my previous questions or even some new ones?
I mean, sure, Ripken had some slight overlap, being that he retired in 2001, thirteen years ago, but his career also started in 1981, when Jeter was seven. You get the meaning of my words, even if they arent exactly percise by your definition. But thats cool. Oh, and Trammell retired in 96 and started his career in 77 - maybe I should use better words, pick one, but I dont consider Trammell part of Jeters generation (nor Ripken - especially when you consider he transitioned to 3rd in 96).
No one said defense doesnt matter. Show me one place I said that. Of course I didnt. I said that the defensive component of WAR is less accurate than the offensive component. Ñow go ahead and dispute that.
No one ignored bWAR, I just pointed out that there is a larger gap when considering fWAR instead, and I choose, because of their discrepancies, to always look at both. Dont you ?
Why arent you flooding Cameron's inbox with some snark? Not that hes the be all end all of anything, but, its sure nice to have a really smart, very well respected analyst added to the mix, no?
But hey, if you want to try and win the internet, I will buy the trophy. All yours!
Carmelo Anthony was the most popular NBA jersey sold in 12-13. http://sportslistoftheday.com/2013/04/09/the-top-selling-nba-nfl-mlb-and-nhl-jerseys/
Do you take anything away from that?
Do you take anything away from that?
Like Jeter, an Ambassador for offensive production in the game. Defense has a different Ambassador.
Clearly not as many people will be buying Jeter jerseys in the second half of 2013 because most everyone already has one.WayBackVazquez said:
I love Mariano, but I'm not sure "Legendary Yankees closer Mariano Rivera ranked first on the list of the 20 most popular jerseys since the All-Star break." means a whole lot. I'd really like it too though.WayBackVazquez said:
The idea of guys arguing on the internet about what qualifies as an Ambassador of Baseball amuses me though.
He was #2 before the break. Spoiler: Jeter wasn't #1.EvilEmpire said:
http://m.mlb.com/news/article/53429018/most-popular-mlb-jerseys-list-dominated-by-youth-all-stars
WayBackVazquez said:
That is definitely interesting, but it doesn't really relate to Jeter when we are talking about how his jersey is top selling one of all-time.
Let me spell it out for you: New York (biggest city[and richest] in the country) team players are disproportionately represented.
No, there's also the fact that he played in that huge rich market for the only 20 years they kept track. Look, he was often behind other players on his team and multiple players on the Mets.
He played for the Yankees for 20 years. So stipulated.
Edit: read wrong
He played for the Yankees for 20 years. So stipulated.
Edit: read wrong
WayBackVazquez said:
I would say that is probably because people already had a lot of Jeter gear by 2011 and this year his stuff is selling like hotcakes now because there is all this commemorative stuff being sold.
He shouldn't be penalized for having played in New York. The fact of the matter is because he is a Yankee that boosted his jersey sales. The fact he won championships has boosted his sales. The fact that he played in NYC boosted his sales. The fact he banged Victoria Secret models boosted his popularity. The fact he was a good player boosted both jersey sales and overall popularity. But that is all a part of it man. They are not strikes against him.
He was one of the very most popular players (if not the most popular) for almost two decades. That is why MLB put him front and center in promo after promo and why he was in commercial after commercial. If it didn't financially benefit MLB or the various companies that he has endorsed their products year after year, then they wouldn't be doing it.
You won't get any argument from me that Jeter on the field is wildly overrated. I am king of the eye rolling club when it comes to all this Jeter stuff (I didn't watch the game last night and don't have plans to watch on Sunday).
He was popular. He was a great player.
He was not the most popular player outside of New York, and he was not the greatest player. He was the most popular player, and had the greatest longevity, for the most popular team in the biggest market during a successful period in that team's history.
As someone who has lived in the second biggest market for the greater part of the last 20 years, Jeter has not gotten much play here, either.
He was not the most popular player outside of New York, and he was not the greatest player. He was the most popular player, and had the greatest longevity, for the most popular team in the biggest market during a successful period in that team's history.
As someone who has lived in the second biggest market for the greater part of the last 20 years, Jeter has not gotten much play here, either.
Last night was the perfect example of why baseball, to me, will always be better and more fun to watch than football or any other sport. You simply can't have moments like that anywhere else.
Jeter said yesterday that if it were any other city than Boston, he would have sat out the final series. But he has great memories of the rivalry and the fans. That's about right.
Exactly! It's the wild unpredictability of Jete's place in the lineup that keeps me coming back for more.Lose Remerswaal said:
Two nights ago wasn't bad either...
Yes, my nipples too get hard when a shitty pitcher grooves an 86 MPH "fastball" thigh high over the middle of the plate....
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