Derek Jeter: Countdown to Retirement

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Harry Hooper

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TomRicardo said:
 
 
Derek Jeter's main accomplishments were being a great (not all time great) hitting poor fielding shortstop with incredible health and being part of five winning teams.  There was never a single season where he was the best player in his position in baseball let alone the best player in his league.  His most memorable playoff moment "The Flip" had him severely out of position and lucking into an errant throw.  
 
 
 
As I noted in another Jeter thread, Joe Torre insists that is a play that his teams always practiced. He was not out of position.
 
 
NatetheGreat said:
 
The most famous players in any sport always become its representatives to some extent. Those who can occupy that position for a long period of time without embarrassing themselves, their team and the league tend to receive the "ambassador" label, which basically says "you were super duper famous and you didn't fuck it up by being an obvious asshole" (a standard which a surprising number of athletes are incapable of meeting). Peyton Manning is a similar kind of "ambassador for the game". 
 
Basically if you're one of the small handful of athletes who even elderly mother in laws who know nothing of sports can name, and said mother in laws are likely to also say something like "I always liked him" or "He seems nice", then congrats you're an ambassador. Derek Jeter is perhaps the living embodiment of this phenomenon. There are probably semi-sentient creatures far under the ocean who have never seen light who have heard of Jeter and that he's "classy" or "plays the right way."
 
This is very well said.
 

WayBackVazquez

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HillysLastWalk said:
Just having some fun.
 
Personally, I think some very smart people have lost their mind.  Again, Derek Jeter is 3rd in career fWAR, and 7th in career bWAR, amongst all shortstops. Ever.  If he's the 3rd best, but doesn't measure up to say Ripken (2nd best), Jeter shouldn't be considered an all-time once-a-generation talent?.
As has been pointed out here and elsewhere, he's virtually tied with Larkin and Alan Trammell. Was Trammell an all-time once-a-generation talent?
 

WayBackVazquez

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Wingack said:
For nearly 20 years he was the most famous and most recognizable player in baseball and not for any negative reasons.
He was not the most famous player in baseball for nearly 20 years. All that Bonds, McGwire, Sosa stuff really happened. And ARod was probably more famous for a few years, too.

Here's a story from 2010, when his Q score was behind a 100 year-old Nolan Ryan, Ripken, and Griffey.

http://m.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2010/06/20100607/Marketingsponsorship/Penalty-Drop-Tiger-Woods-Plummets-On-Sports-Q-Scores-List.aspx?

Stop thinking that what's true in NYC is true for the world.
 

Wingack

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Have all those guys been playing for the past 20 years and been viewed in a positive light? Sure at different times other players have been more popular but I would say that no player has been as consistently popular over that span, and not for any negative reasons, as Jeter has. And that is why we are all being bombarded by the Jeter-praiseathon.
 

WayBackVazquez

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That's not what you wrote. You said he was the most famous and recognizable player in baseball for nearly twenty years. Which is not true, or even close to true. Then you tried to amplify the significance of that fallacy by parroting the "doing it the right way" nonsense.
 

WayBackVazquez

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As for "positive light," from 2009:

Nolan Ryan’s 37 and Cal Ripken Jr.’s 35 topped the MLB category. Albert Pujols is the top active player with a 26. Derek Jeter, widely regarded as the game’s most marketable player, saw his positive Q decrease from 28 to 20, where he is now tied with Mariano Rivera. Additionally, Jeter’s negative Q of 26 now exceeds his positive score.
 

Wingack

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WayBackVazquez said:
He was not the most famous player in baseball for nearly 20 years. All that Bonds, McGwire, Sosa stuff really happened. And ARod was probably more famous for a few years, too.

Here's a story from 2010, when his Q score was behind a 100 year-old Nolan Ryan, Ripken, and Griffey.

http://m.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2010/06/20100607/Marketingsponsorship/Penalty-Drop-Tiger-Woods-Plummets-On-Sports-Q-Scores-List.aspx?

Stop thinking that what's true in NYC is true for the world.
 
First, I don't live in the NYC area. Second according to the article it looks like he has the highest Q-score of any ACTIVE player at the time (higher than Pujols)? Am I understanding that wrong?
 
 
WayBackVazquez said:
That's not what you wrote. You said he was the most famous and recognizable player in baseball for nearly twenty years. Which is not true, or even close to true. Then you tried to amplify the significance of that fallacy by parroting the "doing it the right way" nonsense.
 
I wrote "not for any negative reasons" like being on the nightly news every night for PED use.  I imagine non-baseball fans might know those names or recognize their faces from that more so than Jeter who they may recognize from being plastered all over commercials.
 

WayBackVazquez

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Wingack said:
First, I don't live in the NYC area. Second according to the article it looks like he has the highest Q-score of any ACTIVE player at the time (higher than Pujols)? Am I understanding that wrong?
 
Yes, you are. First, Griffey was active. Second, both Griffey and Pujols were considerably higher the year before. Was it for nearly 20 years, or since 2010 or so?
 

LMontro

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What did this guy do other than show up and play at a high level?  The ambassador talk is just Peter King-level horse shit to make people feel good.  He has gotten a ton of mileage out of not being a fuck up but when you get down to it, he wasn't outspoken about anything, didn't do anything extra to promote the game , and didn't do anything other than worry about #2 and his team.  Which, again, is fine, but all this other stuff is a fan/media creation that has gotten out of control over the years.
 
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WayBackVazquez said:
As has been pointed out here and elsewhere, he's virtually tied with Larkin and Alan Trammell. Was Trammell an all-time once-a-generation talent?
First, when dealing with fWAR, they arent virtually tied. Jeter has a +10 edge.

Second, I do like that Jeters WAR is defined more by his offense, than defense, especially when the offensive compnent of WAR is more accurate, and the defensive compnent has come under fire and is less accurate. So is it not reasonable to say that some of these shortstops that we are comparing, may have over inflated WAR's?

Third, its not out of the question to say that out of the past twenty years, Jeter has been the best shortstop in baseball. Im defining a generation as twenty year time frames. This is what I mean when I say that. Being that Trammell had contemporaries like Ripken and Smith, the answer might be no (for him).

Fourth, then why do really smart analysts like Dave Cameron say things like this:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/derek-jeter-announces-impending-retirement/

Essentially, over the last 100 years, Cal Ripken is the only full time SS weve seen that has posted a higher career WAR than Jeter.
So maybe the mainstream media has overrated Jeter over the last 20 years, but if they have, theyve slightly exaggerated the greatness of one of the greatest players of all time. This isnt a Ryan Howard or Jack Morris situation, where the narrative has turned an okay player into a superstar based on myth and legend. Jeter is a legitimate legend on his own merits, with no embellishments needed.
So, yeah, essentially posting the 2nd greatest WAR of any shorstop over the past 100 years is pretty damn fucking impressive. Wouldnt you think?
 

WayBackVazquez

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Got it. Bwar only counts when it helps you; defense only matters when it helps you; and having the "best war for a SS in the last 100 years" makes you a generational talent, even when the guy above you played at the same time, and a guy behind you who is about 1 war behind doesn't even get in the hall.

Makes perfect sense.
 

Wingack

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WayBackVazquez said:
Yes, you are. First, Griffey was active. Second, both Griffey and Pujols were considerably higher the year before. Was it for nearly 20 years, or since 2010 or so?
 
I don't know man, I am not a Q score expert like you (for what it is work according to this article Jeter has the highest Q score of ANY active athlete besides Peyton Manning right now in 2014.) All I know is, the dude was marketed by brands from across the country like he was the most popular player for a very long time.
 
I really don't care enough about Jeter to get all worked up about this back and forth. I happen to think he was the most recognizable and marketed player in the game (if I am wrong I am OK with that) and if he wasn't that guy he was one of a handful of guys that rotated as being the face of the game at one time or another. And that is why he is getting this sendoff.
 
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WayBackVazquez said:
Got it. Bwar only counts when it helps you; defense only matters when it helps you; and having the "best war for a SS in the last 100 years" makes you a generational talent, even when the guy above you played at the same time, and a guy behind you who is about 1 war behind doesn't even get in the hall.
Makes perfect sense.
Are you being obtuse on purpose? Or is that how you roll?

Does ignoring and twisting the things I say help you sleep at night? Why not answer some of my previous questions or even some new ones?

I mean, sure, Ripken had some slight overlap, being that he retired in 2001, thirteen years ago, but his career also started in 1981, when Jeter was seven. You get the meaning of my words, even if they arent exactly percise by your definition. But thats cool. Oh, and Trammell retired in 96 and started his career in 77 - maybe I should use better words, pick one, but I dont consider Trammell part of Jeters generation (nor Ripken - especially when you consider he transitioned to 3rd in 96).

No one said defense doesnt matter. Show me one place I said that. Of course I didnt. I said that the defensive component of WAR is less accurate than the offensive component. Ñow go ahead and dispute that.

No one ignored bWAR, I just pointed out that there is a larger gap when considering fWAR instead, and I choose, because of their discrepancies, to always look at both. Dont you ?

Why arent you flooding Cameron's inbox with some snark? Not that hes the be all end all of anything, but, its sure nice to have a really smart, very well respected analyst added to the mix, no?

But hey, if you want to try and win the internet, I will buy the trophy. All yours!
 

The Gray Eagle

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jon abbey said:
Someone should copyright the phrase "Calm Eyes are 2020" or something similar, as 2020 is when he'll be eligible for the HOF. 
And also when he will be Our President.
 

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BigSoxFan said:
I've lived about half my life in Texas, primarily during Jeter's career, and I must say that I can't remember ever seeing someone in Texas wear a Jeter jersey or jersey shirt. Like ever. I saw Pujols, Papi, Griffey and other non-TX stars but not much Jeter. If a guy is the pre-eminent marketing tool for MLB, you'd think you'd see his jersey everywhere like you see with Kobe, LeBron, and a ton of football stars. He's certainly well-known but I don't think people were going to games because of Derek Jeter. I think they were going to see local team X vs. the hated Yankees. On the flip side, people everywhere went to watch Bonds, McGwire, Griffey, etc. Personally, I think the media really overstates Jeter's impact on attendance.
 
From ESPN
 


Derek Jeter's No. 2 Yankees jersey is the best-selling baseball jersey of all time.
So say officials at Majestic Athletic, which has made official batting practice jerseys since 1982 and authentic jerseys for all teams beginning in 2005.
"Derek just resonates with all demographics, all across the country," Majestic president Jim Pisani said. "He's really the only jersey that you consistently see at opposing ballparks, which is why he has been at the top for the last decade."
 

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WayBackVazquez said:
You might find this interesting, too:

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/61820140/
I love Mariano, but I'm not sure "Legendary Yankees closer Mariano Rivera ranked first on the list of the 20 most popular jerseys since the All-Star break."  means a whole lot.  I'd really like it too though.
 
The idea of guys arguing on the internet about what qualifies as an Ambassador of Baseball amuses me though. 
 

WayBackVazquez

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EvilEmpire said:
I love Mariano, but I'm not sure "Legendary Yankees closer Mariano Rivera ranked first on the list of the 20 most popular jerseys since the All-Star break."  means a whole lot.  I'd really like it too though.
 
The idea of guys arguing on the internet about what qualifies as an Ambassador of Baseball amuses me though.
He was #2 before the break. Spoiler: Jeter wasn't #1.

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/53429018/most-popular-mlb-jerseys-list-dominated-by-youth-all-stars
 

Wingack

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BigSoxFan said:
It's all anecdotal since there's no way of knowing allegiances for Yankees vs. casual fan. Would love to hear others' experiences, especially outside of ballparks.
 
So just eye-balling things is better than actual sales numbers?
 

WayBackVazquez

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Let me spell it out for you: New York (biggest city[and richest] in the country) team players are disproportionately represented.
 

WayBackVazquez

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No, there's also the fact that he played in that huge rich market for the only 20 years they kept track. Look, he was often behind other players on his team and multiple players on the Mets.

He played for the Yankees for 20 years. So stipulated.

Edit: read wrong
 

Wingack

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WayBackVazquez said:
No, there's also the fact that he played in that huge rich market for the only 20 years they kept track. Look, he was never until this year the #1 jersey; he was often behind other players on his team and multiple players on the Mets. He was #20 in 2011, behind people like Teixeira and Ian Kinsler.

He played for the Yankees for 20 years. So stipulated.
 
I would say that is probably because people already had a lot of Jeter gear by 2011 and this year his stuff is selling like hotcakes now because there is all this commemorative stuff being sold.
 
He shouldn't be penalized for having played in New York. The fact of the matter is because he is a Yankee that boosted his jersey sales. The fact he won championships has boosted his sales. The fact that he played in NYC boosted his sales. The fact he banged Victoria Secret models boosted his popularity. The fact he was a good player boosted both jersey sales and overall popularity. But that is all a part of it man. They are not strikes against him.
 
He was one of the very most popular players (if not the most popular) for almost two decades. That is why MLB put him front and center in promo after promo and why he was in commercial after commercial. If it didn't financially benefit MLB or the various companies that he has endorsed their products year after year, then they wouldn't be doing it.  
 
You won't get any argument from me that Jeter on the field is wildly overrated. I am king of the eye rolling club when it comes to all this Jeter stuff (I didn't watch the game last night and don't have plans to watch on Sunday). 
 

WayBackVazquez

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He was popular. He was a great player.

He was not the most popular player outside of New York, and he was not the greatest player. He was the most popular player, and had the greatest longevity, for the most popular team in the biggest market during a successful period in that team's history.

As someone who has lived in the second biggest market for the greater part of the last 20 years, Jeter has not gotten much play here, either.
 

GlenMorangie

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Last night was the perfect example of why baseball, to me, will always be better and more fun to watch than football or any other sport. You simply can't have moments like that anywhere else.
 

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Jeter said yesterday that if it were any other city than Boston, he would have sat out the final series. But he has great memories of the rivalry and the fans. That's about right.
 

GlenMorangie

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Lose Remerswaal said:
Huh?

Sitting on the bench at Fenway doesn't happen that often?
Exactly! It's the wild unpredictability of Jete's place in the lineup that keeps me coming back for more.

Two nights ago wasn't bad either...
 

E5 Yaz

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Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
Yes, my nipples too get hard when a shitty pitcher grooves an 86 MPH "fastball" thigh high over the middle of the plate....
 
Man, you must be really in pain after watching the Sox this season
 

jon abbey

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Locking this, I think we've said all there is to say and now the man is officially retired. 
 
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