Come Sale Away

[moondog80]

I'm captain of the "a guy should be a starter until he proves he can't do it" club. Chris Sale has proven it to me. He just can't be relied upon to do it. Put him in the pen next year. If nothing else, it forces the Sox to construct a rotation without him. He'd probably be good at it. And if all he does is throw 20 IP and then get hurt, it's a lot easier to replace him. My guess is he wouldn't love the move heading into free agency, but he's not exactly in a position to make a public stink about it.

 

[JM3]

You stretch out your best 8 or 9 starting pitching options in spring training. You start your 5 best & healthiest when the season starts. You hope on everyone & rely on no one.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

The solution can't continue to be "move pitcher X to the bullpen." Obviously you're only making that case for Sale here, but it boils down to the same argument people have had about Whitlock and Houck and Crawford and Pivetta too. Sale's going to be a starter next year. They can plan for him to be a part-time guy when assembling the rotation/roster, but I don't think there's any chance they move him to the bullpen unless he goes full Kluber or something. Right now, I think he's still working his way back from the most recent IL stint. It took him 4-5 starts at the beginning of the year to get on track. He hasn't gotten that far yet since returning.

 

[moondog80]

You stretch out your best 8 or 9 starting pitching options in spring training. You start your 5 best & healthiest when the season starts. You hope on everyone & rely on no one.

The problem with that is you assemble the team differently if you know Sale is simply not an option for the rotation. And I think we are at that point.

 

[bosockboy]

I'm captain of the "a guy should be a starter until he proves he can't do it" club. Chris Sale has proven it to me. He just can't be relied upon to do it. Put him in the pen next year. If nothing else, it forces the Sox to construct a rotation without him. He'd probably be good at it. And if all he does is throw 20 IP and then get hurt, it's a lot easier to replace him. My guess is he wouldn't love the move heading into free agency, but he's not exactly in a position to make a public stink about it.

100% agree. Problem is they have multiple starters in Sale, Houck and Crawford who’s ceiling is 4-5 good innings. Pivetta also in a relief role.

They desperately need SP length and ideally need 3 starters this offseason. 2 is absolutely necessary. You can probably pair Crawford with a Pivetta for one turn but that should be the max. Houck, Whitlock and Sale should be relievers.

The Sale extension has just been an absolute albatross. I’d consider just eating his last year and moving on. With his childish attitude, he’s a net negative.

 

[BigSoxFan]

I think I'd rather trade him for someone else's pricey mistake and be done with him. Suffering from some serious Sale fatigue.

 

[JM3]

The problem with that is you assemble the team differently if you know Sale is simply not an option for the rotation. And I think we are at that point.

I don't think you do & I don't see how we are. If he's on the roster in either hypothetical, we aren't going to be able to say get a 10th reasonable starting pitching option, so you either have 8 & put Sale in the bullpen or you have 9 & have the option of using Sale if you determine he's one of their 5 best options.

He's just a guy in a bucket with Houck/Crawford/Whitlock/Pivetta/Mata/Murphy/whoever.

Battling for a rotation spot behind Bello & whichever 1 or 2 high end starters they add this off season.

 

[moondog80]

I don't think you do & I don't see how we are. If he's on the roster in either hypothetical, we aren't going to be able to say get a 10th reasonable starting pitching option, so you either have 8 & put Sale in the bullpen or you have 9 & have the option of using Sale if you determine he's one of their 5 best options.

He's just a guy in a bucket with Houck/Crawford/Whitlock/Pivetta/Mata/Murphy/whoever.

Battling for a rotation spot behind Bello & whichever 1 or 2 high end starters they add this off season.

I think if Chris Sale disappeared, there would be more emphasis put into acquiring a 3rd starter type than if he was still in the mix for a rotation spot.

 

[JM3]

I think if Chris Sale disappeared, there would be more emphasis put into acquiring a 3rd starter type than if he was still in the mix for a rotation spot.

Based on what? Bloom didn't sign Sale to his contract. He doesn't have any personal incentive to think of Sale as more than he is. This year was a cap reset year so Sale's existence limits your options & flexibility. They will be far less limited next year & as long as Sale is on the 40-man thinking of Sale as bullpen only just limits your options & flexibility. Which is the opposite of what I expect Bloom to be trying to accomplish this off season.

This is a completely different question to the one of whether we should trade him. But if he's on the 40-man, it's better to have him as a starting option than not.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Sale is a frustrating pitcher because the strikeouts are still there. The potential for dominance is still there.

But: he's always hurt. He doesn't go deep into games any more. He takes up a large portion of the team's salary. The team never knows what they'll get from him from start to start because of all the injury recovery.

The fringe benefits of having him on the team are all negative. He doesn't eat innings any more. 2017 is a long time ago by now. He's thrown all of 121 innings since the start of the 2021 season.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

And look, I get it. Sale is a stand up guy and likely a good teammate:

View: https://twitter.com/IanMBrowne/status/1696363534093844937?s=20


At the same time....we've been hearing the same thing from him for 5 years now. It's great he takes accountability, but the results don't seem to change much.

 

[moondog80]

Sale is a frustrating pitcher because the strikeouts are still there. The potential for dominance is still there.

But: he's always hurt. He doesn't go deep into games any more. He takes up a large portion of the team's salary. The team never knows what they'll get from him from start to start because of all the injury recovery.

The fringe benefits of having him on the team are all negative. He doesn't eat innings any more. 2017 is a long time ago by now. He's thrown all of 121 innings since the start of the 2021 season.

Right. I know pitchers get hurt all the time. But with Sale, it's a certainty. And yeah, they can set up the staff with 8 or 9 options in spring training and see where the dust settles. But by design, most of those options won't be particularly good. This year's Zach Eflin is not going to sign here for the role of "you can start if Chris Sale doesn't work out".

As for the question of "what are you going to do, put Sale and Whitlock and Pivetta and Houck all in the pen"? Well, if I think they can't be starters, then yes, that's what I would do. I've not given up on Pievtta and Houck and perhaps even Whitlock. But Sale, it just isn't going to happen. Trying to get 50 high leverage out of the guy might be the best way to squeeze something out of guy who can clearly still pitch for short periods of time.

 

[JM3]

Right. I know pitchers get hurt all the time. But with Sale, it's a certainty. And yeah, they can set up the staff with 8 or 9 options in spring training and see where the dust settles. But by design, most of those options won't be particularly good. This year's Zach Eflin is not going to sign here for the role of "you can start if Chris Sale doesn't work out".

As for the question of "what are you going to do, put Sale and Whitlock and Pivetta and Houck all in the pen"? Well, if I think they can't be starters, then yes, that's what I would do. I've not given up on Pievtta and Houck and perhaps even Whitlock. But Sale, it just isn't going to happen. Trying to get 50 high leverage out of the guy might be the best way to squeeze something out of guy who can clearly still pitch for short periods of time.

Eflin would have been a clear starter above the compete for a role guys. & they should be targeting guys higher than that this season with a much larger budget.

You acquire 2 top end guys & either trade from that group of potential starters or put them in the bullpen.

You don't sign guys to compete for a starting role at this point. That's how you use the guys already in the org who haven't been good enough at getting deep enough to nail down one of those roles.

 

[Curtis Pride]

Sale has one year remaining on his contract, plus a $20MM option in 2025 that vests if he is in the top 10 in Cy Young voting in 2024. So if he manages to be healthy enough in 2024 to pitch about 180-200 innings with about 25 quality starts. That would put him in CYA contention and trigger the option. However, that performance would mean the Red Sox would have an ace to complement Bello and 2024 big-time FA pitcher, and they'll have a pitching staff that can compete in the World Series. If he falls a little short of that he would still be a strong no. 2 starter, and the Red Sox can contend in the postseason with him and let him walk as a free agent in 2025. Less than that, Sale is a no. 3 starter who might be traded at the trade deadline depending on the Red Sox' place in the standings. But he's never going to be a reliever because he's too valuable as a starter.

 

[lexrageorge]

Not opposed to making him the designated relief ace next season. Yes, he's overpaid for that role, but does that matter given it will be the final season of his extension?

I don't get at all about the complaints about his attitude; he had a couple of incidents with the White Sox but has been a model citizen since he arrived in Boston.

 

[moondog80]

Would be quite the scandal if some NY writer gave him a 2nd place vote just to trigger his option.

 

[bosockboy]

Not opposed to making him the designated relief ace next season. Yes, he's overpaid for that role, but does that matter given it will be the final season of his extension?

I don't get at all about the complaints about his attitude; he had a couple of incidents with the White Sox but has been a model citizen since he arrived in Boston.

I wouldn’t go that far. He’s got pretty severe maturity issues (see: last night after wild pitch), and he had multiple COVID stints after refusing to be vaccinated.

 

[simplicio]

He hasn't been good Chris Sale yet since coming back from injury, but I think we're forgetting that guy may still be around. From 4/18 to 5/26 he had 1 bad start to 4 quality ones and another 5 IP/1 ER. If that can be sustained for more than a month and a half then we're absolutely thrilled to have him as a starter.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

He hasn't been good Chris Sale yet since coming back from injury, but I think we're forgetting that guy may still be around. From 4/18 to 5/26 he had 1 bad start to 4 quality ones and another 5 IP/1 ER. If that can be sustained for more than a month and a half then we're absolutely thrilled to have him as a starter.

But of course that's never sustained for more than a month and a half at a time, and that's been the case since 2021.

 

[Patriot_Reign]

But he's never going to be a reliever because he's too valuable as a starter.

What do you base this on?

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

If he stays upright for the year, the story for 2023 Chris Sale will be that we got a number 3 quality starter for about half the year. Missed 7-8 starts and another 5 at least compromised by ramp up from return.

Better than the last two years, and better than nothing I guess. More than I expected, actually. For team building in 2024, I think you need to treat that as the maximum expectation. It would be foolish to expect more. If you get more, great. If you get less, and did your job right, that’s not irreplaceable and can be weathered.

 

[8slim]

I don't know if I'd move him to the pen, but it seems clear the FO will always "count" on him in some way. I mean, we heard the "when Sale comes back" refrain for 2 months. And at least part of their reluctance to make any moves for a starter this summer was predicated on the notion that "good Sale" would be better than anyone they could realistically acquire.

Except "good Sale" is a myth. He doesn't exist. There is "good Sale for 5 starts". But that's it.

 

[Sin Duda]

Sales started the season with 3 pedestrian starts. Then on 4/18 he went 6 innings with 1 allowed earned run and 5 hits+BBs. That started a streak of 7 games before he was shelved. In those 7 games, Sale pitched an average of 6+ innings, with 2ER and 0.90 WHIP. You can say he's frequently hurt, but it's disingenuous to say he is no longer effective. He was averaging a Quality Start for 7 starts once he was up and running.

I look at this season as his restart season and he could/should be back to his new "normal" next season, something like 140 IP, averaging 6IP with a 3.5 ERA. That's a valuable pitcher IF we get that.

 

[8slim]

Sales started the season with 3 pedestrian starts. Then on 4/18 he went 6 innings with 1 allowed earned run and 5 hits+BBs. That started a streak of 7 games before he was shelved. On those 7 games, Sale pitched an average of 6+ innings, with 2ER and 0.90 WHIP. You can say he's frequently hurt, but it's disingenuous to say he is no longer effective. He was averaging a Quality Start for 7 starts once he was up and running. I look at this season as his restart.season and he could/should be back to his new "normal" next season, something like 140 IP, averaging 6IP with a 3.5 ERA. That's a valuable pitcher IF we get that.

We're never going to get that. He can't stay healthy. It's literally been years.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Sales started the season with 3 pedestrian starts. Then on 4/18 he went 6 innings with 1 allowed earned run and 5 hits+BBs. That started a streak of 7 games before he was shelved. On those 7 games, Sale pitched an average of 6+ innings, with 2ER and 0.90 WHIP. You can say he's frequently hurt, but it's disingenuous to say he is no longer effective. He was averaging a Quality Start for 7 starts once he was up and running. I look at this season as his restart.season and he could/should be back to his new "normal" next season, something like 140 IP, averaging 6IP with a 3.5 ERA. That's a valuable pitcher IF we get that.

And then what happened?

He's no longer effective because he's not capable of pitching regularly any more. I think that's the difference in semantics here. He's never taking a regular turn in the rotation with any regularity.

And we should debate about actual results too, because since coming back he's made 4 starts to a 5.30 ERA and has only thrown 18 innings in that time. The team waits and waits and waits for him to come back and be both effective and healthy, and it never happens. He's either hurt or scuffling.

He's a sunk cost at this point and I hope the team treats him as such.

 

[Rovin Romine]

If he stays upright for the year, the story for 2023 Chris Sale will be that we got a number 3 quality starter for about half the year. Missed 7-8 starts and another 5 at least compromised by ramp up from return.

Better than the last two years, and better than nothing I guess. More than I expected, actually. For team building in 2024, I think you need to treat that as the maximum expectation. It would be foolish to expect more. If you get more, great. If you get less, and did your job right, that’s not irreplaceable and can be weathered.

This is a good point. It's really the "rehab/ramp up" in actual ML games that's killing us here, innings wise. I mean, I thought it was great that Sale and Houck and Whitlock said they were willing to come up early and do whatever it took to help the club win.

However, it's now pretty obvious that even though they voluntarily came up early, the team wasn't ready to actually accommodate their more limited roles when they got here.

But the idea that Sale did something wrong should be pushed back on: https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=salech01&t=p&year=2023

His appearances show a clear ramp-up in Aug., with pitch-counts of: 58, 65, 80, 92. The Sox are 2-2 in those games. Not disastrous, but the ramping-up had to be factored in to the team's approach.

***
Likewise - Houck. https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=houckta01&t=p&year=2023

His two August starts are: 69, 80.

***
Whitlock. https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=whitlga01&t=p&year=2023

5 games in Aug. every 2-5 days. Mostly used in the middle innings in wins, 24-40 pitches.

 

[geoflin]

The fact is both the Red Sox and Sale expected the rehab and ramp up we're currently seeing and communicated that to us at the time he was activated after 2 short minor league starts. We were told that he was at that time on a pitch count of 65. He wasn't expected to go deep into games but was expected to go deeper than the 1 or 2 innings they were getting from the openers who were then filling that spot in the rotation. He's done exactly what was expected from him when activated a few weeks ago. There's no doubt the Sox need more but there wasn't then and shouldn't be now any doubt about what Sale is currently able to contribute.

 

[joe dokes]

And then what happened?

He's no longer effective because he's not capable of pitching regularly any more. I think that's the difference in semantics here. He's never taking a regular turn in the rotation with any regularity.

Especially since his latest injury was, to me anyway, the first one that suggested a foundational limitation. Everyone has TJS. (not literally, I know). Freak accidents happen. But the stress reaction in his shoulder after 2 months of pitching like a "real" major leaguer seemed to suggest that that (2 months; 6 dominant weeks) is the most the "old" Sale can get out of his body. Maybe he has some sort of "crafty-ish lefty" in his future. He was that good that I wouldn't put it past him. But I dont think his body is up to his old-style of dominant pitching any more for any significant length of time.
These two guys knew how to do it:
Toronto Blue Jays vs Detroit Tigers Box Score: October 4, 1987 | Baseball-Reference.com

 

[Curtis Pride]

What do you base this on?

A pitcher's value is based on how many outs he can get for his team. An average starter, accounting for wear and tear, can give you about 25 starts of 5.5 innings each, or roughly 135 innings or 405 outs. (Last season Michael Wacha started 23 games and threw for 127.1 innings, and Rich Hill 26 games for 124.1 innings. And they were no. 2 and no. 3 starters, respectively.)

A top reliever appears in a lot more games, but provides fewer innings of work. Last season, the Red Sox' top 2 relievers were John Schreiber (64 appearances, 65 innings) and Ryan Brasier (68 appearances, 62.1 innings). Garrett Whitlock threw for 78.1 innings, but it includes 9 starts. This season, in spite of his in-season injury and recent midseason ramp-up, Sale has given the Red Sox 77.2 innings already. That's more than any reliever on the team. (I don't count Nick Pivetta as a reliever. He's a starter used mostly after an opener.)

Sale's problem is that in the last few years he kept getting hurt. Moving him to the bullpen will certainly reduce his innings, but not the likeliness of him getting too hurt to pitch. And when he's good enough to pitch, you usually get 5+ innings out of him every 5 days, which is more than 1-2 innings every other day. The only scenario in which Chris Sale is converted to a reliever is if his stuff has regressed so much that he is unable to pitch for more than 3 innings without getting lit up. In that scenario he is a highly-fungible middle reliever on the last year of his contract.

 

[Benj4ever]

Sale is a frustrating pitcher because the strikeouts are still there. The potential for dominance is still there.

But: he's always hurt. He doesn't go deep into games any more. He takes up a large portion of the team's salary. The team never knows what they'll get from him from start to start because of all the injury recovery.

The fringe benefits of having him on the team are all negative. He doesn't eat innings any more. 2017 is a long time ago by now. He's thrown all of 121 innings since the start of the 2021 season.

Sale threw a respectable number of pitches last night. The problem was his control was way off. 90 pitches should have gotten him through 6 innings last night, if he could only have avoided going deep in the count so often.

I don't find Sale's injury problem to be at all surprising. Pitching puts a considerable amount of strain on the most solidly built guys, let alone a walking match stick.

 

[BaseballJones]

Sale's problem isn't just that he keeps getting hurt. It's that he's been less effective even when healthy. He still has electric stuff (which is why he still gets tons of Ks) but he's inconsistent and the results just aren't there. It's not like he can't string together a few really good games, because he can. But he can't sustain it.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Sale's problem isn't just that he keeps getting hurt. It's that he's been less effective even when healthy. He still has electric stuff (which is why he still gets tons of Ks) but he's inconsistent and the results just aren't there. It's not like he can't string together a few really good games, because he can. But he can't sustain it.

Yes, and it's due to his command being lacking. Command goes before control does and he simply can't dominate the strike zone like he used to.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

However, it's now pretty obvious that even though they voluntarily came up early, the team wasn't ready to actually accommodate their more limited roles when they got here.

But the idea that Sale did something wrong should be pushed back on: https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=salech01&t=p&year=2023

His appearances show a clear ramp-up in Aug., with pitch-counts of: 58, 65, 80, 92. The Sox are 2-2 in those games. Not disastrous, but the ramping-up had to be factored in to the team's approach.

Yeah, if you assume one more start where they'll be careful before the take off the training wheels, his return ramp up looks to be about 23 innings of 4.00 ERA baseball. If he'd stayed longer in the minors longer, there was nobody who could have taken the roster spot that gives us anything like that. It's not nothing, and he shouldn't be criticized for coming back. Story is kind of going through something similar. If we'd had the luxury of having closer to replacement level coverage for both of them, maybe we could have been leisurely. It is what it is. We're a thin team, and the pieces we have don't fit together perfectly as a cohesive unit, either in the line up, the field, or the bullpen and trying to replace spare parts with spare parts leaves holes.

For purposes of planning with Sale, though, I think we've got a fair amount of evidence to confirm what we always kind of suspected might be the case. He's a 180 pound 6'6" pitcher who does not exactly have a quiet pitching style, and he plugged away for nearly a decade at a 200 IP/year pace. In bursts, he can be effective, but he gets a bit worn and loses his release point or tweaks something here and there. If we get out of him next year what we got this year, it feels like a win -- it's a lot better than nothing. But beyond that, I think the team needs to be in "hope, don't expect" mode.

 

[grimshaw]

Sales started the season with 3 pedestrian starts. Then on 4/18 he went 6 innings with 1 allowed earned run and 5 hits+BBs. That started a streak of 7 games before he was shelved. In those 7 games, Sale pitched an average of 6+ innings, with 2ER and 0.90 WHIP. You can say he's frequently hurt, but it's disingenuous to say he is no longer effective. He was averaging a Quality Start for 7 starts once he was up and running.

I look at this season as his restart season and he could/should be back to his new "normal" next season, something like 140 IP, averaging 6IP with a 3.5 ERA. That's a valuable pitcher IF we get that.

Building on that, for this team, I still think Sale is a high enough reward to not touch anything:

Here are the Sox QS% for the season. Some are more skewed than others due to pitch counts.

Bello 13/22 (59%).
Paxton 8/18 (44%)
Sale 5/15 (33%) but he has been on pitch counts for several of those starts.
Whitlock 3/10 (30%) He's in the Sale bucket.
Houck 3/15 (20%)
Pivetta 2/11 (18%)
Crawford 2/17 (12%)
Kluber 1/9 (11%)

They've got nothing imminent in the minors, so they need to roll with the guys with the best shots of competitive starts as they are average at best (18th in the majors) in getting that done.

 

[AlNipper49]

His risk profile is way too high to be counted on at all. I’d be against using him in relief given you’re probably using his arm in a negative way given the warmups, etc.

You have to slot him in for a modern starter where he’s going for a few innings and invest in middle relief if you want to use him for something. That would involve investing in guys who can handle that middle role. Given the options in FA this year that’s probably easier than finding a 1/2.

 

[moondog80]

I look at this season as his restart season and he could/should be back to his new "normal" next season, something like 140 IP, averaging 6IP with a 3.5 ERA. That's a valuable pitcher IF we get that.

If FanDuel put that line out there 99.8% of the action would be on the under.

And yeah, he's fully capable of putting together a 7 game streak like we saw earlier this year. But it seems near certain that the bottom will fall out at some point.

If there was no Chris Sale this past year, would they have gone into ST with the same group of starters, save for maybe another AAAA arm? I doubt it. They would have added another Kluber (with better results, hopefully), another guy they could reasonably count on to take a rotation spot. That's what I want for next year.

 

[jbupstate]

Let’s go out and spend huge money someone like DeGrom, Rodon or Ohtani. Pitchers get hurt. Some stay hurt and some come out the other side effective but eventually get hurt again. Timing is everything Remember when Bello had forearm stiffness?

It’s so tiring when people complain about Sale’s salary and also complain the Sox are too cheap to acquire risk. When Sales is healthy he’s a high quality pitcher. Same with Paxton.

As said up thread. Sox need to stretch out 8-10 pitchers and pitch the 5 they feel are the best at that point in time. WHEN someone gets hurt move everyone up a notch and replace with 6-10.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

So we’re all thinking Sale is likely done as an effective major league starting pitcher, yes? He gave another heartfelt apology for his performance yesterday which is genuinely cool to see, but it seems clear that we wait and wait and wait for him to figure it out and it’s just….not happening.

 

[JM3]

So we’re all thinking Sale is likely done as an effective major league starting pitcher, yes? He gave another heartfelt apology for his performance yesterday which is genuinely cool to see, but it seems clear that we wait and wait and wait for him to figure it out and it’s just….not happening.

Not sure there's not much point in writing him off or not writing him off. We're stuck with him on his silly contract for 1 more year, so we'll see how he looks in Spring Training & go from there. Hope for the best, expect the worst, sunk cost, etc.

 

[bosockboy]

So we’re all thinking Sale is likely done as an effective major league starting pitcher, yes? He gave another heartfelt apology for his performance yesterday which is genuinely cool to see, but it seems clear that we wait and wait and wait for him to figure it out and it’s just….not happening.

I’m there. He missed too much time and can’t get it back. Competent 5th starter is next years upside.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

So we’re all thinking Sale is likely done as an effective major league starting pitcher, yes? He gave another heartfelt apology for his performance yesterday which is genuinely cool to see, but it seems clear that we wait and wait and wait for him to figure it out and it’s just….not happening.

He had a run in the first half of the season where he looked pretty vintage, but his body just won’t hold up for any length of time anymore. I’ve been more bullish on him than most, but it ain’t happening

 

[ShaneTrot]

The injuries and contract are not his fault. I do want him to succeed but he has just sucked the fun out of this season. I was really psyched for all the injured players to come back in August and they all have torpedoed the season with their suck.

 

[lexrageorge]

So what’s the downside again to moving him to the pen next season?

 

[Harry Hooper]

The salary is what the salary is, but could he be the left-handed complement to Martin next season [as in pitching an inning about every other game]? He might embrace getting on the mound more often and in winnable games.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

So what’s the downside again to moving him to the pen next season?

No real downside, other than needing to suddenly find 3-4 new starters. Seems like we all agree Bello should start but that pretty much everyone else is best suited as a reliever.

 

[GB5]

I have had enough of him getting flowers for being a stand up teammate. He can go beat the crap out of the water coolers and the bat rack in the dugout and everyone will say what a competitor, he really wants it. How about you just get outs.

 

[Fishy1]

So we’re all thinking Sale is likely done as an effective major league starting pitcher, yes? He gave another heartfelt apology for his performance yesterday which is genuinely cool to see, but it seems clear that we wait and wait and wait for him to figure it out and it’s just….not happening.

There's still some silver linings, and the guy is very competitive, so I doubt he'll quit on his own.

Peripherals are not only good, but great, except he's given up an insane number of gopher balls this year, which is partly on him and probably partly luck.

If he decides to retire, that's up to him, but I think he's going to continue to try to pitch and probably have various degrees of success depending on his health. Sox are locked in for only one more year. I wouldn't be surprised if he got hurt again and called it a career, I also wouldn't be surprised if he gave us 20 starts next year at an ERA of 3.00 or so.

Pitching is weird. Guys go from being wholly ineffective to being all-stars. I'm reminded of the insanely bad season John lackey had in 2011. He missed the whole next year. We all know what happened in the year after that.

 

[simplicio]

Lackey's 2011 turned out to be needing surgery the whole time, didn't it?

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Lackey's 2011 turned out to be needing surgery the whole time, didn't it?

Yes. He had a torn UCL.

 

[Fishy1]

Lackey's 2011 turned out to be needing surgery the whole time, didn't it?

Yeah. Merely offering an example of a pitcher who appears to be finished and then bounced back. Not trying to equate the two or assert that Sale is definitely not finished, only to suggest that his season, while bad, could have been worse, and is by no means a sign that he is absolutely cooked