College Name-Image-Likeness (NIL)

[SoxJox]

I thought we had a thread discussing NIL, but couldn't find it. I know that there have at least been references to the new avenues being made available to student-athletes.

This thread is intended to provide a venue for open discussion on the topic, however wide it may range

In any case, I found this this article about a specific effort being undertaken at Penn State to be quite novel.

“Success With Honor” Penn State NIL Collective Launches

For as little as $10 a month, you can support your favorite Penn State student-athletes while gaining access to exclusive fan content.

With an advisory board that includes notable Nittany Lions like Lavar Arrington, Todd Blackledge, Lisa Salters, Michael Robinson, David Taylor, Megan Hodge, and plenty of others, Penn State fans can now give monthly donations to support different Penn State Athletic programs, with the money going toward NIL deals for the athletes themselves. Here’s what the “Success With Honor” website says specifically:

"Success With Honor has long been the ethos of every student-athlete that has donned a Penn State University uniform. Its mandate is clear – an unrelenting passion and dedication to competing at the highest levels of one’s ability, while never compromising one’s integrity in the pursuit of excellence.

It is this very principle that guides the work of the Success With Honor Collective, formed to help elevate, educate, and empower student-athletes at the greatest university in the world. The alumni and supporters of Success With Honor believe deep down in their hearts that Penn State student-athlete are destined to do great things, and we will work tirelessly to ensure that every current and future Nittany Lion has the opportunity to maximize the power of their name, image and likeness during their time in State College."

There are six different monthly donation levels: $10, $25, $50, $100, $250, and $500. The more you pledge to a program (29 different teams are listed), the more perks and benefits you receiver — like access to supporter events.

So there is a benefit to the donee and donor. I'm sure there is some way the NIL rules get around the old "booster club" donations of the past, but I'm not quite sure I see a distinction or a difference.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

I would love to know what percentage of that money ends up in the players pockets. So much opportunity there for the school to skim. Penn State has to know everyone is watching them, right?

 

[Average Reds]

I would love to know what percentage of that money ends up in the players pockets. So much opportunity there for the school to skim. Penn State has to know everyone is watching them, right?

Not to sound too cynical, but the beauty of the new NIL programs is that the schools have no incentive to skim anything.

What I mean is that the purpose of the under-the-table payment schemes that existed in the past was not to directly enrich the schools, it was to get money to key recruits so they would choose the school. (Which enriches the school by building the program in question.) So all the school has to do is restructure (and legitimize) these efforts, which, in turn, will create new opportunities for the schools to separate boosters from the money that is burning a hole in their pocket.

I’m not an idiot - any program like this will attract grifters. But, as you noted, everyone will be watching, which means it would be incredibly self-defeating for the schools themselves to attempt to skim anything from these programs.

 

[TheGazelle]

I would love to know what percentage of that money ends up in the players pockets. So much opportunity there for the school to skim. Penn State has to know everyone is watching them, right?

The FAQ on the website claims 85-90%.

https://successwithhonor.org/

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

The FAQ on the website claims 85-90%.

https://successwithhonor.org/

With nothing to compare it to that sounds decent. It will be interesting to see how that changes over time, and if anyone audits it to see if PSU can justify the cost.

 

[terrynever]

Not to sound too cynical, but the beauty of the new NIL programs is that the schools have no incentive to skim anything.

What I mean is that the purpose of the under-the-table payment schemes that existed in the past was not to directly enrich the schools, it was to get money to key recruits so they would choose the school. (Which enriches the school by building the program in question.) So all the school has to do is restructure (and legitimize) these efforts, which, in turn, will create new opportunities for the schools to separate boosters from the money that is burning a hole in their pocket.

I’m not an idiot - any program like this will attract grifters. But, as you noted, everyone will be watching, which means it would be incredibly self-defeating for the schools themselves to attempt to skim anything from these programs.

Hell, I remember seeing a Penn State donor treat two All-America running backs $50 each after they had dinner with him in a restaurant. That was his price for being seen with Franco and Lydell. Pretty harmless. Left me wondering why a rich guy would get off on having dinner with two famous players.

 

[McBride11]

I think overall NIL and allowing college players to capitalize on their skills / looks / ability is a good think. Like Im sure SoSh would have made Stokke a multimillionaire.

But this does seem exploitable. PSU is going to run these donations to NIL for the players? And distribute the money? How ? I put 100 / mos to the football team (or women's vball or m/f soccer, etc) how do they distribute the money? Football has like 80 players, I give 10 / mos, eeach player gets 12 cents from me? Do they grade it by the Heisman candidate RB gets 50% and then then frosh backup punter gets 0.05%?
And why does PSU get 15% Service fees?

But then this seems like an easy way for a booster to still do their thing. Damn Reggie Bush is amazing, I will make a fake NIL OnlyFans account to donate 125K to Bush under the name RBushUSCdaBEST.

 

[SoxJox]

Digging into the Success with Honor program, the FAQ section lists some very interesting factors that assign a significant amount of control to the donor and the donee. In fact, #4 below seems to exclude the university from playing an active role at all, other that opening the medium though which donors can engage the third party administrator.

For example:

1. [Already mentioned above] WHAT PERCENTAGE OF CONTRIBUTIONS GO TO THE ATHLETES? Between 85 – 90%. Success With Honor keeps its overhead costs as low as possible, but must cover expenses related to IT, legal, marketing materials, content creation, student-athlete education, fan engagement experiences, and bookkeeping. The Board of Directors review finances on an on-going basis to ensure funds are spent in ways that most benefit the athletes.
2. CAN I SELECT WHAT SPORT MY CONTRIBUTIONS SUPPORT? Yes, anyone subscribing to Success With Honor can denote what sport AND their respective student-athletes contributions will be earmarked for. Supporters can also contact us directly to set up activations with their favorite student-athlete(s). [So, a donor can earmark a specific athlete - it won't necessarily be doled out pro rata by sport
3. ARE ALL STUDENT-ATHLETE OPPORTUNITIES THE SAME? No, contracts vary based on the specific athlete and the requirements of the contributor and/or activation. Each deal is individually negotiated and agreed upon by the student-athletes. [as it should be] That being said, Success With Honor seeks to provide equal opportunities for both male and female student-athletes.
4. IS SUCCESS WITH HONOR AFFILIATED WITH PENN STATE UNIVERSITY? No, the collective is not affiliated with the university in any way. It is a third party created to work with Penn State student-athletes. The university is prohibited by state law from arranging third-party compensation for student-athletes as it relates to NIL contracts.

 

[axx]

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/33829757/sources-pittburgh-panthers-usc-trojans-odds-jordan-addison-mulls-potential-transfer

Oh this is rich... USC basically bribed Pitt's best WR to transfer to USC. And Pitt is pissed.

 

[Philip Jeff Frye]

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/33829757/sources-pittburgh-panthers-usc-trojans-odds-jordan-addison-mulls-potential-transfer

Oh this is rich... USC basically bribed Pitt's best WR to transfer to USC. And Pitt is pissed.

This is going to become standard operating procedure.

And he's probably the best player Pitt has had since Aaron Donald.

 

[Average Reds]

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/33829757/sources-pittburgh-panthers-usc-trojans-odds-jordan-addison-mulls-potential-transfer

Oh this is rich... USC basically bribed Pitt's best WR to transfer to USC. And Pitt is pissed.

Where does it say that? It simply says that the pre-existing relationship Addison has with Caleb Williams makes Pitt suspect tampering.

Addison had a breakout season and then lost his QB, offensive coordinator and position coach. He’d be a damn fool not to look for a better situation.

 

[axx]

Where does it say that? It simply says that the pre-existing relationship Addison has with Caleb Williams makes Pitt suspect tampering.

Addison had a breakout season and then lost his QB, offensive coordinator and position coach. He’d be a damn fool not to look for a better situation.

He gone, it's just that he's looking to see if he can do better than USC... which is rumored to be 2 mill.

Gonna be tough to call college sports "Non Profit" if guys are making 2 mill on the sly.

 

[Average Reds]

He gone, it's just that he's looking to see if he can do better than USC... which is rumored to be 2 mill.

Gonna be tough to call college sports "Non Profit" if guys are making 2 mill on the sly.

I will ask again - where does it say anything about that in the article you linked to?

Your second paragraph is simply incoherent, as NIL programs are both legal and public.

 

[The Social Chair]

It's real rich to hear college coaches complaining about this but nobody cares when a coach under contract leaves a school for more money and a better chance of winning.

I hope Addison does go to USC for $2M.

 

[axx]

I will ask again - where does it say anything about that in the article you linked to?

Read the tea leaves of what the article says.

That it is 2 mill is a rumor I saw elsewhere.

 

[LoweTek]

NIL is ripe for exploitation no matter how you slice it. The only difference is (most of) it will be out in the open now. I know an Auburn alum in a position to know who said Cam Newton's "family" got several hundred thousand for him to sign there. Nothing new happening except it's legal now.

 

[SoxJox]

Ran across this article as it pertains to Penn State, but it applies similarly to other schools regarding the worth of an NCAA scholarship.

Not every college football player is getting an NIL deal worth $3 million and a beach house. Or a Lamborghini. Or even $500 for an autograph session.

But, the 11,135 college football players in the FBS who are getting a full ride – 131 schools x 85 scholarships – are still getting a great deal.

For a Penn State incoming freshman, who majors in Liberal Arts, stays for four years and attends classes in the summer, a scholarship is worth a healthy amount — even if he never makes an NIL nickel. The amount, according to my calculations:

$251,178 – for a Penn State football player from Pennsylvania.

$355,741 – for a Penn State football player from out-of-state.

That’s for tuition, room and board, books, fees and cash. That’s right, and cash.

Over the course of a Penn State freshman football player’s full four-year career – assuming he doesn’t hit the transfer portal or leave early for the NFL – he can make up to $43,032 in cash. Not from an NIL, but directly from PSU ICA [Intercollegiate Athletics].

Of that $43,032 four-year pay-out, $19,112 is for covering the hidden costs of attending college – i.e., supplies, incidentals, transportation, etc. Penn State football players currently receive $4,778 a year in Cost of Attendance money – to pay for those extra expenses that every college student faces. This COA was approved by the NCAA and implemented by all Power 5 schools in August 2015 and is perfectly legal. Penn State’s annual COA pay-out is among the highest in the nation.

The remaining $23,920 will begin later this year, at the rate of $5,980 per year. That’s the limit schools can pay their athletes for achieving academic success, one of the results of the Supreme Court’s 9-0 ruling in favor of athletes in the famous Alston case last summer. Schools get to determine what that level is, i.e., achieving a 3.0 or making academic progress. They will also determine if the full amount is paid each semester/year or if some portion is held until graduation, as an inducement for athletes to get their degrees.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Ran across this article as it pertains to Penn State, but it applies similarly to other schools regarding the worth of an NCAA scholarship.

And that's what the NCAA wanted everyone to think was enough all these years, even though the university is making many times more than that amount of money on the play of revenue sport athletes.

For non-revs it's a different story.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Nick Saban going all-in on lack of NIL compliance while specifically pointing to Travis Johnson and to Texas A&M “buying every player on their team.”

Johnson responded, “Y’all was NIL before NIL.”

 

[cornwalls@6]

I do think NIL, in combination with the transfer portal, has the potential to be very chaotic, and do some damage to CFB, without a few guard rails in place…….. BUT, the larger takeaway for me is that the NCAA and it’s member institutions absolutely had this coming, after all the decades of greed, exploitation, and draconian rules for players while everyone else got rich, and had complete freedom of movement to chase a better opportunity. And the hand wringing from Saban and others has more than a little whiff of older, authoritarian, mostly white, dudes threatened and bitter that they no longer have absolute control over the lives and college careers of the 18-22 year olds that they used to. And on balance, I think that’s for the better.

 

[Granite Sox]

Saban being the one to say the quiet part out loud is hilarious. Even Paul Finebaum was shocked. The Athletic has an interesting article on this (https://theathletic.com/news/jimbo-fisher-nick-saban-recruiting-nil/8Sq2kdEx4dUm/SEC - Jimbo is not amused); SEC schools always had the unspoken agreement not to tattle on each other. Notable that it’s Saban who went scorched earth.

I agree with cornwalls… NIL + transfer portal (plus uncapped annual scholarships) is going to lead to mayhem.

 

[JoePoulson]

Saban cries SO much for being such an amazing coach. Sucks the kids are finally getting paid what they're worth and Bama can't just get the top recruiting class every year!

 

[DJnVa]

Saban cries SO much for being such an amazing coach. Sucks the kids are finally getting paid what they're worth and Bama can't just get the top recruiting class every year!

As one of the articles said, he was complaining about the NIL thing to a group of Alabama businessfolks that could swoop in and do exactly what he accuses Texas A&M of doing.

 

[Doug Beerabelli]

Someone should ask him "Coaches can go to the highest bidder, why not the players?"

 

[steveluck7]

As one of the articles said, he was complaining about the NIL thing to a group of Alabama businessfolks that could swoop in and do exactly what he accuses Texas A&M of doing.

Probably a shrewd move on his part. Mention it to them as something he hates, blah blah blah. Toss in how some direct competitors are doing it, mention some specific $$ amounts, acknowledge it's how business is done.
let them come to him to offer help rather than him coming to them, hat in hand.

 

[Awesome Fossum]

Right, exactly. Alabama is at the top of the mountain, so obviously they're going to fight anything that threatens the existing paradigm. And complaining to his donors about how A&M is behaving is a very tactful way of lighting a fire under their butts. He's doing his job.

 

[canderson]

I do think NIL, in combination with the transfer portal, has the potential to be very chaotic, and do some damage to CFB, without a few guard rails in place…….. BUT, the larger takeaway for me is that the NCAA and it’s member institutions absolutely had this coming, after all the decades of greed, exploitation, and draconian rules for players while everyone else got rich, and had complete freedom of movement to chase a better opportunity. And the hand wringing from Saban and others has more than a little whiff of older, authoritarian, mostly white, dudes threatened and bitter that they no longer have absolute control over the lives and college careers of the 18-22 year olds that they used to. And on balance, I think that’s for the better.

I think it’s gonna absolutely destroy college basketball. There is no team who can keep any nucleus and coaches can’t recruit because they’ll never know who might bolt or switch before they walk on campus.

 

[cornwalls@6]

I think it’s gonna absolutely destroy college basketball. There is no team who can keep any nucleus and coaches can’t recruit because they’ll never know who might bolt or switch before they walk on campus.

That's the chaos that is a real threat to the competitive balance, and ultimately to the on-field/court product. One idea I've heard, that makes sense to me is to tie a NIL agreement with not being able to enter the transfer portal for a period of time. In other words, like a contract in professional sports. Another is to have a transfer portal window, ala a free agency period in pro sports, not during the season. I'm all for redressing the inequities of the last 100 years in college sports, but professional players usually have a multi-year commitment to one team when they get paid, and there are structures and limitations to player movement in place. Have no idea if something like these ideas would pass muster within the confines of the supreme court decision, and absent a players union and a collective bargaining agreement, but not sure a Wild West atmosphere, where everybody goes to the highest bidding booster, whenever they want, is really tenable for the long term health of the 2 major revenue sports.

 

[Philip Jeff Frye]

There's real potential for college football and basketball to turn into something like European soccer leagues, where a handful of super-rich clubs buy up all the talent in a never-ending quest to be on top. How many rich alums does it take to build an NIL-fueled basketball team? Probably not too many. Football might be a bit harder given the roster size, but you've got to think USC, Texas, Notre Dame, etc... are lining up boosters to make this happen.

Soccer clubs that were very successful in the 1970s and 1980s like Celtic, Ajax, Leeds, Nottingham Forest and Porto are now shadows of themselves because they didn't have the resources to compete with the Real Madrids and ManU's (let alone Man City and PSG now). Its not hard to see that happening to a school like Alabama if they can't find the money for NILs. Does Villanova or Kansas have the resources to stay competitive in basketball with Duke, given that school's wealthy alumni base? Does a school like Stanford get a few Silicon Valley billionaires to bankroll some national champions in football or basketball?

 

[VORP Speed]

There's real potential for college football and basketball to turn into something like European soccer leagues, where a handful of super-rich clubs buy up all the talent in a never-ending quest to be on top. How many rich alums does it take to build an NIL-fueled basketball team? Probably not too many. Football might be a bit harder given the roster size, but you've got to think USC, Texas, Notre Dame, etc... are lining up boosters to make this happen.

Soccer clubs that were very successful in the 1970s and 1980s like Celtic, Ajax, Leeds, Nottingham Forest and Porto are now shadows of themselves because they didn't have the resources to compete with the Real Madrids and ManU's (let alone Man City and PSG now). Its not hard to see that happening to a school like Alabama if they can't find the money for NILs. Does Villanova or Kansas have the resources to stay competitive in basketball with Duke, given that school's wealthy alumni base? Does a school like Stanford get a few Silicon Valley billionaires to bankroll some national champions in football or basketball?

Time for Yale to get back to the top of the college football mountain

 

[WestMassExpat]

I’m all for these kids to get paid, and get every penny they can.

But at some point, and I think it’s soon, the suspension of disbelief that they are students has to crumble.

Meanwhile for fans of amateurism, this has to be a boon in the making for the Ivy’s and D-IIIs of the world.

I hope.

 

[SoxJox]

But just in the past week or so, both Jerome Bettis and Saquan Barkeley finished their degrees. And many, many more have preceded. So it's not that clear cut.

 

[kenneycb]

I’m all for these kids to get paid, and get every penny they can.

But at some point, and I think it’s soon, the suspension of disbelief that they are students has to crumble.

Meanwhile for fans of amateurism, this has to be a boon in the making for the Ivy’s and D-IIIs of the world.

I hope.

Who actually cares about amateurism? Very few people watched college football because it’s “more pure” than the pros. They watch it because it’s football, it’s entertaining and they may have a connection to the school. I could give a shit if the Ivies or others aren’t paid. They put a shitty relative product out and I have no desire to spend my free time watching shitty sports because the kids aren’t paid.

Regardless, this is the Wild West right now that will probably sort itself out once the sugar rush dissipates in a couple years.

 

[Kliq]

There's real potential for college football and basketball to turn into something like European soccer leagues, where a handful of super-rich clubs buy up all the talent in a never-ending quest to be on top. How many rich alums does it take to build an NIL-fueled basketball team? Probably not too many. Football might be a bit harder given the roster size, but you've got to think USC, Texas, Notre Dame, etc... are lining up boosters to make this happen.

Soccer clubs that were very successful in the 1970s and 1980s like Celtic, Ajax, Leeds, Nottingham Forest and Porto are now shadows of themselves because they didn't have the resources to compete with the Real Madrids and ManU's (let alone Man City and PSG now). Its not hard to see that happening to a school like Alabama if they can't find the money for NILs. Does Villanova or Kansas have the resources to stay competitive in basketball with Duke, given that school's wealthy alumni base? Does a school like Stanford get a few Silicon Valley billionaires to bankroll some national champions in football or basketball?

I mean, a handful of blue-bloods get all the best recruits right now; if anything NIL deals might allow more schools to recruit top talent.

At least in basketball, dominant recruiting does not necessarily correlate with winning the title every season; plenty of school without a Top 10 recruit have won the title in recent years. I don't really see this being that big of a change; there already is a handful of upper-class teams.

 

[Philip Jeff Frye]

I mean, a handful of blue-bloods get all the best recruits right now; if anything NIL deals might allow more schools to recruit top talent.

At least in basketball, dominant recruiting does not necessarily correlate with winning the title every season; plenty of school without a Top 10 recruit have won the title in recent years. I don't really see this being that big of a change; there already is a handful of upper-class teams.

That's all true, but it's going to be different (especially in football) recruiting 17 and 18 year olds who have only played against high schoolers than recruiting 20 year olds like Addison who have already shown what they can do against top level competition.

And my point isn't that there aren't schools at the top of the heap right now because they are better than other schools at attracting talent. It's that the schools on the top are going to change because it's going to be ability to pay NIL deals thats going to matter rather than having a big time coach or nice facilities or the other things that matter today. And there may be fewer of them because there aren't that many schools that can match the alumni wealth of USC or Stanford. Can Clemson or Oklahoma do that?

 

[WestMassExpat]

They watch it because it’s football, it’s entertaining and they may have a connection to the school.

So what connection do most football players at Power 5 conferences have to the school? Are you seriously making an argument that 95% of them would even sniff campus if it wasn't for the game? It's been that way for a few generations, but now with NIL, the inner workings of "college" football as a business is so much more explicit.

I could give a shit if the Ivies or others aren’t paid. They put a shitty relative product out and I have no desire to spend my free time watching shitty sports because the kids aren’t paid.

Fine, but if CFB is essentially a minor league, with most players at top schools essentially not having a valid claim to attending an institution who's mission is higher learning first, it's doing a disservice at least to this higher ed mission to continue the charade.

College sports should have a legit connection to the colleges first, and to a multiple billion dollar business probably not at all.

 

[NoXInNixon]

Which is why I hope this is all leading to some kind of G League for football. It's what the XFL or AAF or USFL should have been. I have no interest in watching players not good enough to play in the NFL. But I would watch players good enough but too young.

 

[kenneycb]

So what connection do most football players at Power 5 conferences have to the school? Are you seriously making an argument that 95% of them would even sniff campus if it wasn't for the game? It's been that way for a few generations, but now with NIL, the inner workings of "college" football as a business is so much more explicit.


Fine, but if CFB is essentially a minor league, with most players at top schools essentially not having a valid claim to attending an institution who's mission is higher learning first, it's doing a disservice at least to this higher ed mission to continue the charade.

College sports should have a legit connection to the colleges first, and to a multiple billion dollar business probably not at all.

They wear the laundry. That’s all that matters. The who in sports generally speaking is not important.

No idea where you get the 95% thing or valid claim from as I’m not making that argument. The connection is they go to my school. The rest is you putting an argument into my post that isn’t there.

I like watching my college do well in sports. I don’t really care (within reason) who is helping them do that. The allure of the purity of amateurism is zero. Maybe that’s just me but I don’t suspect it is. The only way I’m watching Yale football is if I went to Yale or if they play BC (alma mater). Therefore I’m not going to be watching Yale.

 

[Granite Sox]

The Ol’ Ball Coach throws a log on the fire: https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/33958363/hall-fame-college-football-coach-steve-spurrier-defends-alabama-nick-saban-spat-texas-jimbo-fisher

”Did Saban say something that wasn’t true?”

Man, these guys all hate each other haha…

 

[singaporesoxfan]

So what connection do most football players at Power 5 conferences have to the school? Are you seriously making an argument that 95% of them would even sniff campus if it wasn't for the game? It's been that way for a few generations, but now with NIL, the inner workings of "college" football as a business is so much more explicit.


Fine, but if CFB is essentially a minor league, with most players at top schools essentially not having a valid claim to attending an institution who's mission is higher learning first, it's doing a disservice at least to this higher ed mission to continue the charade.

College sports should have a legit connection to the colleges first, and to a multiple billion dollar business probably not at all.

I agree with your last paragraph, but it’s not like taking NIL away is going to change any of that, it’s just shifting money from players to coaches.

 

[WestMassExpat]

They wear the laundry. That’s all that matters. The who in sports generally speaking is not important.

No idea where you get the 95% thing or valid claim from as I’m not making that argument. The connection is they go to my school. The rest is you putting an argument into my post that isn’t there.

I like watching my college do well in sports. I don’t really care (within reason) who is helping them do that. The allure of the purity of amateurism is zero. Maybe that’s just me but I don’t suspect it is. The only way I’m watching Yale football is if I went to Yale or if they play BC (alma mater). Therefore I’m not going to be watching Yale.

The laundry is about all that's the same for athletes and the typical student at P5 CFB schools. And with NIL, not that boosters weren't paying kids under the table before, now the financial incentive probably drives the attendance decision for a lot of kids.

As for the 95% claim, check this out:

A recent investigation by the Atlanta Journal Constitution of major college football teams found significantly lower average SAT score for college athletes than the remainder of an institution’s undergraduate student body. The disparity was more significant for male athletes, with the largest average gap between the student body and football players (220 points), and the student body and men’s basketball players (213 points).

The biggest gap between football players and students as a whole occurred at the University of Florida, where players scored 346 points lower than the school’s overall student body. Georgia Tech’s football players had the nation’s best average SAT score, 1028 of a possible 1600, and best average high school GPA, 3.39 of a possible 4.0 in the core curriculum. But Tech’s football players still scored 315 SAT points lower on average than their classmates.

Maybe it's not 19 out of 20 players at the UFs and tOSUs, A&Ms, USCs, and UTs of the world that wouldn't otherwise qualify -- by a lot -- to attend, but I think it's fair to say it's in the ballpark.

If it's about athleticism, ham-fisting de-facto minor league sports leagues with institutions whose mission is post-secondary education doesn't make any sense -- and the quality of play in a legit minor league system would probably be at least as exciting to watch (a la MiLB) and hopefully more equitable to the players. And at times, the charade is comical. Like with the allegations of A&M essentially buying a top class, or the highest paid public employee in a lot of states being the head football or basketball coach from public universities.

Since it's all we, as sports fans, have known in this country, I guess we accept it. But tell me that this makes sense to someone from Europe or South America. I mean, most P5 football stadiums exceed the capacity of Estadio Azteca. From a de novo perspective, it's like, WTF are you guys doing over there.

 

[WestMassExpat]

I agree with your last paragraph, but it’s not like taking NIL away is going to change any of that, it’s just shifting money from players to coaches.

Yeah, I agree. I'm saying that separating athletics to a true pro minor league could be done in a way that makes the process 1) more transparent, and 2) more equitably for the players.

And this is coming from a person who thinks NIL is actually a step in the right direction -- before it was only the institution that was making millions or tens of millions annually from football.

 

[kenneycb]

Great. I wasn’t making the argument.

The laundry is about all that's the same for athletes and the typical student at P5 CFB schools. And with NIL, not that boosters weren't paying kids under the table before, now the financial incentive probably drives the attendance decision for a lot of kids.

As for the 95% claim, check this out:




Maybe it's not 19 out of 20 players at the UFs and tOSUs, A&Ms, USCs, and UTs of the world that wouldn't otherwise qualify -- by a lot -- to attend, but I think it's fair to say it's in the ballpark.

If it's about athleticism, ham-fisting de-facto minor league sports leagues with institutions whose mission is post-secondary education doesn't make any sense -- and the quality of play in a legit minor league system would probably be at least as exciting to watch (a la MiLB) and hopefully more equitable to the players. And at times, the charade is comical. Like with the allegations of A&M essentially buying a top class, or the highest paid public employee in a lot of states being the head football or basketball coach from public universities.

Since it's all we, as sports fans, have known in this country, I guess we accept it. But tell me that this makes sense to someone from Europe or South America. I mean, most P5 football stadiums exceed the capacity of Estadio Azteca. From a de novo perspective, it's like, WTF are you guys doing over there.

Your point was that this will be a boon for schools that nobody gives a shit about today because people will care more about amateurism. My counter is that nobody cares about mediocre athletes playing mediocre sports. You keep throwing words at my counter but never touching on why people will be more compelled to watch shittier, hard to find football over better, easy to find NIL football.

As I said before, most of your argument is making up shit that you claim I say, like the 95% thing that I never said but you keep harping on. No I never claimed that 95% wouldn’t sniff the campus. Thanks for the link but that’s an irrelevant point. Stop building a strawman and address the points I’m making.

Regarding the SA andEurope point, tell me does their soccer academy system make sense to an American? I mean what the fuck is Barcelona doing taking an 8 year old Argentine into La Masia?

 

[VORP Speed]

The laundry is about all that's the same for athletes and the typical student at P5 CFB schools. And with NIL, not that boosters weren't paying kids under the table before, now the financial incentive probably drives the attendance decision for a lot of kids.

As for the 95% claim, check this out:




Maybe it's not 19 out of 20 players at the UFs and tOSUs, A&Ms, USCs, and UTs of the world that wouldn't otherwise qualify -- by a lot -- to attend, but I think it's fair to say it's in the ballpark.

If it's about athleticism, ham-fisting de-facto minor league sports leagues with institutions whose mission is post-secondary education doesn't make any sense -- and the quality of play in a legit minor league system would probably be at least as exciting to watch (a la MiLB) and hopefully more equitable to the players. And at times, the charade is comical. Like with the allegations of A&M essentially buying a top class, or the highest paid public employee in a lot of states being the head football or basketball coach from public universities.

Since it's all we, as sports fans, have known in this country, I guess we accept it. But tell me that this makes sense to someone from Europe or South America. I mean, most P5 football stadiums exceed the capacity of Estadio Azteca. From a de novo perspective, it's like, WTF are you guys doing over there.

Is the mission of American universities really post-secondary education? Or are they thinly disguised asset management firms/corporate conglomerates that use their not for profit status to enrich the bureaucracies that run them? If they’re not running professional sports teams, they’re managing multi-billion dollar hedge funds or regional hospital systems or REITs or health insurance plans. They look more like Berkshire Hathaway than a school and the compensation of the people who run the various parts of the organization gives a pretty good window into the priorities of the institutions.

 

[CFB_Rules]

Yeah, I agree. I'm saying that separating athletics to a true pro minor league could be done in a way that makes the process 1) more transparent, and 2) more equitably for the players.

But if you separate the games entirely from the schools, the money dries up. The number of failed football minor leagues is legion. It’s not about talent. Any USFL team would be the #1 ranked college team by a long shot…are you watching them?

People root for the laundry. Go to a college football tailgate and most people there don’t even know who the players are. Some might be able to identify the QB. Players are being compensated with huge amounts of money not necessarily because they are great football players. There are far better players making less money even in the NFL. They earn more because of the marginal improvement they provide to the home team over those bastards down the road.

 

[WestMassExpat]

Stop building a strawman and address the points I’m making.

I think it's fair for me to talk about evidence that players aren't reflective of their institutions in response to the claim that people root for the laundry.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting this bit from your initial reply:

They watch it because it’s football, it’s entertaining and they may have a connection to the school.

Also, I agree with the first two points of that sentence.

Regarding the SA andEurope point, tell me does their soccer academy system make sense to an American? I mean what the fuck is Barcelona doing taking an 8 year old Argentine into La Masia?

There's a lot I don't know about the academies, but it makes more sense for a for-profit arm of a professional sports franchise to sponsor or whatever kids than it does for non-profit, public universities to effectively do the same. Not saying that the former is equitable/not exploitive. I don't know.

Is the mission of American universities really post-secondary education? Or are they thinly disguised asset management firms/corporate conglomerates that use their not for profit status to enrich the bureaucracies that run them? If they’re not running professional sports teams, they’re managing multi-billion dollar hedge funds or regional hospital systems or REITs or health insurance plans. They look more like Berkshire Hathaway than a school and the compensation of the people who run the various parts of the organization gives a pretty good window into the priorities of the institutions.

I mean, isn't it possible for the system to have more than one structural flaw?

But if you separate the games entirely from the schools, the money dries up. The number of failed football minor leagues is legion. It’s not about talent. Any USFL team would be the #1 ranked college team by a long shot…are you watching them?

People root for the laundry. Go to a college football tailgate and most people there don’t even know who the players are. Some might be able to identify the QB. Players are being compensated with huge amounts of money not necessarily because they are great football players. There are far better players making less money even in the NFL. They earn more because of the marginal improvement they provide to the home team over those bastards down the road.

I guess I'd disagree, but I don't know that much about the USFL. People like to watch the next best product after the NFL, right? If there was no NCAA, I don't think it would matter if that were the USFL or some new system.

 

[Awesome Fossum]

People like to watch the next best product after the NFL, right?

I think you are defining "product" too narrowly. The quality of the football/football player matters, but so does the 90K people in the stands, the marching bands, the historic stadiums, the tradition, the hype, the pomp and circumstance, etc.

You might also consider that many people prefer college football to the NFL. If it was just about the quality of play/player, why would that be?

 

[WestMassExpat]

On the first sentence, I get it. A) I wonder how many players care especially now with NIL, and B) if yes, how representative are they of the university and all that associated stuff?

 

[Awesome Fossum]

I'm not sure I'm totally following, but I think those questions sort of support @CFB_Rules 's point. That the players are becoming increasingly interchangeable as the game becomes increasingly popular is evidence to the argument that it's the brands and not the players that drive most of the value. Or, at the very least, that they heavily rely on one another. So if you separate the players from the brands, you are losing most of what makes college football valuable. Certainly, ESPN isn't going to be paying $300M for the XFL television rights like they did the SEC.

 

[singaporesoxfan]

That's all true, but it's going to be different (especially in football) recruiting 17 and 18 year olds who have only played against high schoolers than recruiting 20 year olds like Addison who have already shown what they can do against top level competition.

And my point isn't that there aren't schools at the top of the heap right now because they are better than other schools at attracting talent. It's that the schools on the top are going to change because it's going to be ability to pay NIL deals thats going to matter rather than having a big time coach or nice facilities or the other things that matter today. And there may be fewer of them because there aren't that many schools that can match the alumni wealth of USC or Stanford. Can Clemson or Oklahoma do that?

I don’t think alumni wealth as a whole matters as much as alumni - and other people who want to be associated with a school, which is often relevant for state universities - who are willing to donate to boost the school’s sports, and NIL isn't really going to change who wants to pay money to attract talent. Stanford today already could get a bigger time coach and nicer facilities to recruit more aggressively with its alumni contributions, but my sense is that its alums don’t care as much about that.