Celtics in 18-19

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Maybe we should throw out Hayward's numbers from his first two years in the league before making numerical comparisons? That's not what Angle paid $120M for.

As for guys jumping over Ojeleye, those same guys would jump over Hayward.
Ainge also did not pay $120mm for a guy to suffer one of the more horrific leg injuries in recent NBA history. Clearly Ainge misread Hayward's ability to stay on the court.

Anyhow, there is no question that Hayward is not effective. He is pretty much last of all the C's rotation guys in RPM including Wanamaker but your contention that he should be shut down just isn't realistic. Ainge won't call for it, Stevens won't do it and Hayward would likely be very upset were that to happen.

To the guy's credit, he went to the bench willingly and appears to be trying even if he isn't succeeding. I would guess that you and Kyrie Irving are in the tiny minority of people who think that a one dimensional player like Anthony might do more than Hayward for the Celtics. Recall that even when Carmelo was healthy, he was a horrible defender and given his athleticism, it had to be disinterest in the endeavor rather than some sort of physical limitation. I personally would rather watch a team of Haywards plod around than a washed guy like Melo loaf around and demand the ball. But to each their own...
 

Cesar Crespo

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Semi’s numbers are a credit to Brad’s usage of him. Semi is really only useful when he can guard a frontcourt player without a good jump shot. That’s a group that includes Giannis and (arguably) Simmons, so Semi might make a contribution come playoff time, but he’s unplayable against a lot of teams.
Yeah, I made that argument myself. I'm in total agreement.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Even removing those 2 years, his rate stats are basically the same. Removing his first 2 years, he is now a career .440/.365/.824 shooter instead of a .443/.364/.824 shooter. He actually gets worse when you remove his first 2 years. His rebound % is at a career high this year, and his assist % of 18.6% is right in line with the 18.2% he posted in 14/15 and 15/16. His steal rate is at 1.8%, higher than the 1.7% and 1.5% he posted in 14/15 and 15/16. His block rate is 0.9%, right in line with the .8 and .6. His TO% is 12.5%, same as the 12.5% in 14/15, but worse than his 9.4% in 16/17. That 9.4% is a career high by a large mark, as the 12.5% is the 3rd best of his career.

So yeah, you were saying something about those first 2 years? He's mathematically the same player he has always been. He's just getting less attempts and shooting worse... and he hasn't even really been shooting worse for close to 2 months.
Feelings and what we think we are seeing >>>>facts. Why don't you get that?
 

Cesar Crespo

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Feelings and what we think we are seeing >>>>facts. Why don't you get that?
We never really got to see him healthy and now I think people are overrating just how good a healthy Hayward was/is so they think he's significantly worse than he used to be. I used the comp earlier but had he not got injured, people would have seen he is more Khris Middleton than Paul George.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Let's do better than this.
What is bad about the comp? One is overrated and the other is underrated.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/haywago01.html
vs
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/middlkh01.html

Even their career lines are similar
Hayward 15.3 points, 4.2 rebounds, 3.4 assists, 1.0 steal on .443/.360/.821 shooting. 44.7% of his FGA were assisted.
MIddleton 15.4 points, 4.3 rebounds, 3.1 assists, 1.3 steals on .451/.389/.846 shooting. 49.5% of his FGA were assisted.

Career Rate stats
Hayward 7.8% Reb, 18.7% assist, 1.7% Steal, 1.1% block, 12.8% TO, 23.1% usage
Middleton 7.7% Reb, 15.8% assist, 2.1% Steal, 0.5% block, 11.9% TO, 21.9% usage.

And Middleton's assist % the last 4 seasons is 18.3% while his usage is 23.7%.


But yeah, let's do better. Are you saying Hayward is better? Worse?
 

mcpickl

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You may be right. But I'd love Stevens to test your theory by giving Ojeleye 25 minutes for 4-5 consecutive games. What have they got to lose? Hayward might benefit from the extra rest before the playoffs.
Hayward doesn't need extra rest, he needs extra reps.

Giving his minutes to a much inferior player hurts the team, and hurts Hayward.

You've managed to come up with the rare lose/lose idea.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I’d like to see both Brown and Tatum get 35mpg going forward at the expense of Hayward’s minutes. I get managing Kyrie, Horford, etc. but time to let the young guys loose.
I would not mind seeing Rozier lose some minutes, with Smart getting some of the backup PG minutes from Rozier and opening up time at the wing.
This.

Also, to remind people, George had the benefit of coming back at the end of the season following his injury so he got some playing-out-the-string games against actual NBA players after his rehab and then had the luxury of a full summer to train. Hayward essentially started training in the mid-offseason because of the second procedure and then jumped right back into NBA action. The medical professionals amongst us are better qualified to discuss this but my understanding is that injuries like Hayward's aren't the kind where, once you are cleared to play, you can simply bounce right back.
And, NBA players in this era work their butts off over the summer. If that wasn't relevant to player performance, they wouldn't do it. They do it because it matters, even when not coming back from a horrific injury.
Semi’s numbers are a credit to Brad’s usage of him. Semi is really only useful when he can guard a frontcourt player without a good jump shot. That’s a group that includes Giannis and (arguably) Simmons, so Semi might make a contribution come playoff time, but he’s unplayable against a lot of teams.
I think Ojeleye is certain to have a long (~10 year) NBA career. Being able to guard Giannis is a marketable NBA-worthy skill. Whether he is a deep bench/matchup guy throughout or hits a ceiling of 'rotation player' depends on how he develops from here.
 

radsoxfan

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We are 50 games into the season. Hayward is as healthy as he's going to get.
Please stop. This is just not true and your NBA watching "experience" is entirely unhelpful in this case. Hayward may be as good as he is ever going to get, he may not be. But I can assure you that you have no idea.

Hayward's future contract certainly may be a liability. And he was a liability against the Warriors since he played poorly, but that was just one game. Perhaps there is something to the better more athletic teams giving him more trouble, I don't know.

In a general sense on the season, Hayward really hasn't been some major liability (unless you're punishing him for unfair expectations). Kyrie and Tatum are the clear minutes leaders, and the rest of the main rotation guys are clumped between 22 and 28 minutes per game. Hayward is essentially tied with Jaylen in a tie for 6th in MPG at 26 per game.

There are a million stats to choose from, but by most he has fit in as an adequate 6th or 7th man on the team. His PER is 7th among people who see the court consistently (better than Smart, Jaylen ,and Rozier). He's 6th in Win shares, he's 7th in BPM, he's 4th in VORP (basically tied with 4 people so he's really in the 4-7 range). This narrative that he's costing them all these wins based on getting way more minutes than he deserves is silly.

If you don't play Hayward, you'll either tire out the better players or be giving his minutes to people at his current level or worse. Plus, playing him has the added benefit that his upside is way higher than a typical 6th or 7th man.
 
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Cesar Crespo

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I would not mind seeing Rozier lose some minutes, with Smart getting some of the backup PG minutes from Rozier and opening up time at the wing.
And, NBA players in this era work their butts off over the summer. If that wasn't relevant to player performance, they wouldn't do it. They do it because it matters, even when not coming back from a horrific injury.
I think Ojeleye is certain to have a long (~10 year) NBA career. Being able to guard Giannis is a marketable NBA-worthy skill. Whether he is a deep bench/matchup guy throughout or hits a ceiling of 'rotation player' depends on how he develops from here.

I've said the same about Smart but some people on the board don't like him bringing up the ball against quicker guards which makes Rozier necessary. I think the team could manage without Rozier and I don't think he's particularly good or hard to replace. I also don't really see the need to replace him because the less Wanamaker I see, the better. I'm also not sure there is anyone better available to replace him with. I wouldn't mind cutting him down from 22-23 minutes a game to 10-15 and splitting those between Smart and Brown though. They are clearly superior players and Rozier is not part of the future and not really an asset so there's no need to showcase him for anything.

Rozier has even less of a purpose on this team when Marcus Smart is hitting 36% of his 3s. I think he's basically nothing more than a volume shooter and not a particularly good one. This year he is at .379/.352/.797. His career numbers are .377/.354/.778. His 2p% the last 3 years are essentially identical at .405, .410 and .406. His 3pt% is all over the place at .318, 381, .352. At .381, he'd have some value but he ruins that with all the garbage 2s.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I've said the same about Smart but some people on the board don't like him bringing up the ball against quicker guards which makes Rozier necessary. I think the team could manage without Rozier and I don't think he's particularly good or hard to replace. I also don't really see the need to replace him because the less Wanamaker I see, the better. I'm also not sure there is anyone better available to replace him with. I wouldn't mind cutting him down from 22-23 minutes a game to 10-15 and splitting those between Smart and Brown though. They are clearly superior players and Rozier is not part of the future and not really an asset so there's no need to showcase him for anything.

Rozier has even less of a purpose on this team when Marcus Smart is hitting 36% of his 3s. I think he's basically nothing more than a volume shooter and not a particularly good one. This year he is at .379/.352/.797. His career numbers are .377/.354/.778. His 2p% the last 3 years are essentially identical at .405, .410 and .406. His 3pt% is all over the place at .318, 381, .352. At .381, he'd have some value but he ruins that with all the garbage 2s.
The problem isn't as much Smart bringing the ball up against quicker guards even though he surely would struggle against some versus playoff level intentsity……..but Smart without Rozier (or Kyrie) takes away one of his greatest strengths in defending a variety of scoring wings while exposing him against one of his defensive weaknesses of defending quicker 1's with the ball on the perimeter. He could still function in these roles but has shown pretty clearly that this is not the best use of his skillset on the defensive end.
 

Big John

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Please stop. This is just not true and your NBA watching "experience" is entirely unhelpful in this case. Hayward may be as good as he is ever going to get, he may not be. But I can assure you that you have no idea.
Yep, I'm guessing, but so are the rest of you. Personally I would try to find a more effective player rather than trying to fill an inside straight. The "it's just one game" excuse doesn't work for me any more.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Yep, I'm guessing, but so are the rest of you. Personally I would try to find a more effective player rather than trying to fill an inside straight. The "it's just one game" excuse doesn't work for me any more.
Well data doesn't appear to work for you either. You are aware that people tend to be poor at analyzing things just by observing them, even if they have been doing so for years, right?
 

Rustjive

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Yep, I'm guessing, but so are the rest of you. Personally I would try to find a more effective player rather than trying to fill an inside straight. The "it's just one game" excuse doesn't work for me any more.
Do you really think that having Semi Ojeleye take all of Gordon Hayward's minutes is the key to beating the Warriors and winning a championship? Your point of view throughout this whole thread has been incredibly myopic. To win a championship over these Warriors the Celtics need Hayward to be who he was. They need to draw that inside straight. Semi at his max effectiveness gives you top pair. All you're hoping for with your plan is a few more regular season wins.
 

Big John

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Do you really think that having Semi Ojeleye take all of Gordon Hayward's minutes is the key to beating the Warriors and winning a championship? Your point of view throughout this whole thread has been incredibly myopic. To win a championship over these Warriors the Celtics need Hayward to be who he was. They need to draw that inside straight. Semi at his max effectiveness gives you top pair. All you're hoping for with your plan is a few more regular season wins.
Once again, you may be right. But I'd prefer to be proactive. If there is no answer on the current roster, Ainge needs to look for one. It's myopic to hope that Hayward will be who he was, and I find that argument that, statistically, he really is who he was, unconvincing.
 

BigSoxFan

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Once again, you may be right. But I'd prefer to be proactive. If there is no answer on the current roster, Ainge needs to look for one. It's myopic to hope that Hayward will be who he was, and I find that argument that, statistically, he really is who he was, unconvincing.
And what asset would you be willing to part with to get this Hayward replacement? And who would you target? Anyone can talk in abstract terms. Let’s see some ideas.
 

Devizier

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Net-net, I don't think this team is materially better or worse than last year's team.

Unfortunately, Milwaukee is materially *a lot* better than they were last year, and Toronto is too.
 

Jimbodandy

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Well, based only on my many years of watching NBA basketball, I think it's either time to give up on Hayward, or time to give up trying to make the NBA finals, never mind winning a championship. Take your pick.
"Give up on Hayward" is a fine thing to say if you have an alternative. Unless you're talking about cutting his minutes down and sliding him down the depth chart a bit (which I'm all for BTW), then I'd love to hear what your plan is. You have yet to offer any kind of meaningful answer to this question.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I'm not someone who thinks Gordon is all done, and will never get any better, but I do think if the C's hope to improve their playoff seeding and/or go on a deep playoff run this year, then Gordon can't keep playing as much as he is. Why do folks think all of Gordon's minutes would need to go to Semi? Do people really think Brad is going to be giving 25+ minutes a night to 9 guys come playoff time? If so, we're fucked, because our opponents are going to roll 7, maybe 8 deep with their best players anyway.

I've been saying this for weeks, but if we have any chance of improving our playoff seeding, Brad needs to start cutting minutes from Gordon and Rozier, and increasing minutes for guys like Morris and Smart and Tatum and Brown. Night in, night out, we've got healthy, young, athletic and active players who are sitting on the bench, while weaker, slower, worse, players are scooping up 20-25 minutes a night from them. Brad doesn't need to take Gordon's minutes and allocate them to a new body off the bench, he just needs to re-allocate to the guys that are playing well at the time.
 

Deathofthebambino

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What is our best road win.....OKC? Minnesota? Whenever we’ve faced a real good team on the road we’ve lost and oftentimes in fairly convincing fashion.
We only have one win against a team on the road with an above .500 record. OKC, in the 5th game of the year. OKC was 0-4 at the time.
 

HomeRunBaker

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"Give up on Hayward" is a fine thing to say if you have an alternative. Unless you're talking about cutting his minutes down and sliding him down the depth chart a bit (which I'm all for BTW), then I'd love to hear what your plan is. You have yet to offer any kind of meaningful answer to this question.
It's interesting that this talk of "giving up on Hayward" is occurring at the end of a month when he's posting a 57.6 TS% while putting up 12/4/3......how many reserves are getting their teams these type of numbers? Crowder, Sabonis, Lou Williams, Harrell, Bogdanovich, and Bagley?
 

Jeff Van GULLY

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Will be interesting to see how Hayward plays after the all-star break. I think he’s (and the Celtics) going to have a much better 2nd half.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Net-net, I don't think this team is materially better or worse than last year's team.

Unfortunately, Milwaukee is materially *a lot* better than they were last year, and Toronto is too.
I keep reading this about Milwaukee, and obviously, they look a lot better, but what is it? Their starting 4 of Giannis/Bledsoe/Middleton/Brogdon is the same as last year. They basically replaced John Henson with Brooke Lopez. Jabari Parker is gone, and George Hill came in, but aside from that, the roster hasn't changed much. Are Lopez and Hill the difference makers?
 

Cesar Crespo

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I keep reading this about Milwaukee, and obviously, they look a lot better, but what is it? Their starting 4 of Giannis/Bledsoe/Middleton/Brogdon is the same as last year. They basically replaced John Henson with Brooke Lopez. Jabari Parker is gone, and George Hill came in, but aside from that, the roster hasn't changed much. Are Lopez and Hill the difference makers?
They were 16-8 before they acquired Hill so it's probably not him. I'm sure Lopez helps but I'm guessing it's mostly Giannis making the types of improvements that don't really show up in box scores.
 

Deathofthebambino

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It's interesting that this talk of "giving up on Hayward" is occurring at the end of a month when he's posting a 57.6 TS% while putting up 12/4/3......how many reserves are getting their teams these type of numbers? Crowder, Sabonis, Lou Williams, Harrell, Bogdanovich, and Bagley?
How about Jaylen Brown? And let's not forget the defensive side of the ball.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I actually heard something about Lopez that I haven't bothered to look up so I'm not sure it's true. Even though he is a terrible rebounder, the teams he plays for are good rebounding teams. He sacrifices himself so others can get rebounds.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I keep reading this about Milwaukee, and obviously, they look a lot better, but what is it? Their starting 4 of Giannis/Bledsoe/Middleton/Brogdon is the same as last year. They basically replaced John Henson with Brooke Lopez. Jabari Parker is gone, and George Hill came in, but aside from that, the roster hasn't changed much. Are Lopez and Hill the difference makers?
Probably a little bit of everything. Giannis has improved for sure, Middleton and Brogdon are a year older and the continuity with Bledsoe running the team helps as well. Replacing two young players, Henson and Parker, with a couple veterans who understand their roles better in Hill and Lopez add a little bit more while helping with role definitions leading to winning games. I'm not sure Parker's desire to put up numbers helped that team at all.
 

amarshal2

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Bucks started taking more 3’s. 25/g last year, 38/g this year at only a slightly less efficient pace.
 

BigSoxFan

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We only have one win against a team on the road with an above .500 record. OKC, in the 5th game of the year. OKC was 0-4 at the time.
Below are the teams with winning records on the road this year:

Bucks
Raptors
Pacers
Heat
Warriors
Thunder
Jazz

The Heat haven’t beaten anyone good on the road so you can remove them. The Pacers no longer have their best player so they take a big hit as well.

The Celtics certainly need to get better on the road if they have any designs on a deep playoff run but there’s still time to get better and they’re not alone in their struggles. Even the Big 3 team couldn’t win a single road game against a crappy 8 seed Hawks team.

I think this roster has the talent to get it done but they need to start figuring things out fast. That includes determining just what exactly Hayward’s playoff role is going to be.
 

lars10

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Yep, I'm guessing, but so are the rest of you. Personally I would try to find a more effective player rather than trying to fill an inside straight. The "it's just one game" excuse doesn't work for me any more.
This is such a horrible analogy for the quality of player that Hayward is... so absolutely ridiculously negative.
 

lars10

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I'm not someone who thinks Gordon is all done, and will never get any better, but I do think if the C's hope to improve their playoff seeding and/or go on a deep playoff run this year, then Gordon can't keep playing as much as he is. Why do folks think all of Gordon's minutes would need to go to Semi? Do people really think Brad is going to be giving 25+ minutes a night to 9 guys come playoff time? If so, we're fucked, because our opponents are going to roll 7, maybe 8 deep with their best players anyway.

I've been saying this for weeks, but if we have any chance of improving our playoff seeding, Brad needs to start cutting minutes from Gordon and Rozier, and increasing minutes for guys like Morris and Smart and Tatum and Brown. Night in, night out, we've got healthy, young, athletic and active players who are sitting on the bench, while weaker, slower, worse, players are scooping up 20-25 minutes a night from them. Brad doesn't need to take Gordon's minutes and allocate them to a new body off the bench, he just needs to re-allocate to the guys that are playing well at the time.
I also think that it would be nice if Brad would vary rotations with the games.. so that if a player has a hot hand they play more rather than just going with what seems to be a fairly set rotation where everyone gets the same minutes regardless game after game. (this is based on observation, but seems to have been true.. if the numbers don't agree then I guess he's already doing it, but it doesn't seem so).
 

Eddie Jurak

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The problem isn't as much Smart bringing the ball up against quicker guards even though he surely would struggle against some versus playoff level intentsity……..but Smart without Rozier (or Kyrie) takes away one of his greatest strengths in defending a variety of scoring wings while exposing him against one of his defensive weaknesses of defending quicker 1's with the ball on the perimeter. He could still function in these roles but has shown pretty clearly that this is not the best use of his skillset on the defensive end.
He did it in the playoffs last year, though.
 

HomeRunBaker

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He did it in the playoffs last year, though.
I never said he couldn’t do it, of course he “can” it just isn’t optimal usage of the player for the reasons I mentioned above not to dissimilar to the Baynes/Horford playing together debate. You take away his defensive strength while exposing an area of weakness in certain matchups.
 

Montana Fan

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@DotB - Rondo played 42 minutes last night.

I think the Celts might get a bump from playing GSW. I'm hoping that they see that they're going to have to up their level of play to not only compete with an end of a road trip GSW team, but also to compete in the postseason. Brooklyn is going to give it their all for 48 tonight. Looking forward to seeing how the Celts play tonight. Hope it's a maximum effort game for them.

33 regular season games to go. Plenty of time to shake out exactly where Gordon fits in. I expect Brad to keep rolling him out there for 20 minutes +. As others have suggested, the ASB will be good for Gordon. Give him a chance to regroup and hopefully finish strong. My wish for GH = make buckets. If he could hit his shot more consistently he'd be a great asset off the bench.
 

lovegtm

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I actually heard something about Lopez that I haven't bothered to look up so I'm not sure it's true. Even though he is a terrible rebounder, the teams he plays for are good rebounding teams. He sacrifices himself so others can get rebounds.
It is true, and it is about a Lopez, but it's his twin brother who boxes out for others.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I never said he couldn’t do it, of course he “can” it just isn’t optimal usage of the player for the reasons I mentioned above not to dissimilar to the Baynes/Horford playing together debate. You take away his defensive strength while exposing an area of weakness in certain matchups.
In most cases the net benefit favors the Celtics though. There isn’t a long list of teams whose best offensive strategy is having their PG go 1 on 1 with Marcus Smart.

One common thing teams have done against the Celtics over the past couple of years is get the Celtics PG switched onto their best offensive wing and exploring the mismatch. That’s far more effective when the Celtics have Irving or Rozier at the pin t than when they have Smart.

I do think they need to have someone on the team who can give them occasional minutes against the smaller scoring guards, but at this point I’d rather take my chances with Smart in those matchups than Rozier in most nights.
 

TripleOT

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The Celtics are playing the long game here. They probably are looking at a 3-4 seed, and will have to win on the road in the playoffs. The goal for the rest of the season is winning as many games as possible while spreading out the minutes so everyone is healthy and fresh legged for the playoffs.

I think there's enough top level talent and playoff experience on this roster to go on the road and win a playoff game. I would like to see the consistency on defense that the team had last season. They just don't dig in as often this season.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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33 regular season games to go. Plenty of time to shake out exactly where Gordon fits in. I expect Brad to keep rolling him out there for 20 minutes +. As others have suggested, the ASB will be good for Gordon. Give him a chance to regroup and hopefully finish strong. My wish for GH = make buckets. If he could hit his shot more consistently he'd be a great asset off the bench.
I agree with this. One thing I wanted to point out though is that while I understand Brad always coaches for the long term, at some point he's going to have to figure out whether GH is going to be on the floor at crunch time during the playoffs.

If he isn't, then he should stop giving GH those minutes.

I think Brad is going to take a good, hard look at GH after the All-Star break. I'm sure they have numbers that tell us a lot more than what we are discussing. But if GH doesn't get markedly better - and while I'm a huge GH supporter - I don't think he should be playing in crunch time. I'd much rather have MaMo or JB.
 

the moops

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I did not see the GSW game. Did Hayward take a giant shit on center court or something? All this talk about him not being a rotation player or preferiing Carmelo Anthony to him seems to come out of nowhere over the past couple days. He had a decent stretch over the past month or so. Definitely had some stinkers in there, and he does not look to be but 75% of pre-injury Hayward - but holy shit.
 

joe dokes

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I'm not someone who thinks Gordon is all done, and will never get any better, but I do think if the C's hope to improve their playoff seeding and/or go on a deep playoff run this year, then Gordon can't keep playing as much as he is. Why do folks think all of Gordon's minutes would need to go to Semi? Do people really think Brad is going to be giving 25+ minutes a night to 9 guys come playoff time? If so, we're fucked, because our opponents are going to roll 7, maybe 8 deep with their best players anyway.
The bolded is more than a bit extreme. They are 1 loss out of 4th place, 3 out of 3rd and 4 out of 2nd.
As for the playoffs, if Hayward is the 9th best player on the team, he will get 9th player minutes.
 

Bleedred

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I did not see the GSW game. Did Hayward take a giant shit on center court or something? All this talk about him not being a rotation player or preferiing Carmelo Anthony to him seems to come out of nowhere over the past couple days. He had a decent stretch over the past month or so. Definitely had some stinkers in there, and he does not look to be but 75% of pre-injury Hayward - but holy shit.
Basically, yes. He looked old/slow/hurt (your pick). That said, it was one game in which he didn't play particularly well and the overreaction is predictable but silly. I side with those that say that GH is a good rotation player off the bench with decent upside if he continues to improve. I also believe that come playoff time, if GH is basically the same, that JB should be playing many more minutes than Gordon.
 

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Jul 16, 2005
11,123
Chelmsford, MA
Hayward just doesn't have the athleticism. The discussion up thread is interesting about how good a shooter he actually is but to my eyes if he could get his shot more consistent he could still be a very useful player but right now he's not accurate enough from deep nor athletic enough to finish at the rim. He's still not a bum, he does a lot of useful stuff out there, but they need a lot more from him to seriously contend. It was just a lot more obvious against such an athletic and switch causing GS team.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
54,256
Well, the Carmelo stuff is embarrassing, because Hayward is playing better than him, but thankfully there are ways to not have to see that kind of comment on the board.