It kinda makes you sad, watching that. He looks nothing like that now. He has some good games and all, but in different ways. He's got about zero explosiveness around the rim.
Celtics in 18-19
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
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Caveat here is that the 3s were tougher for Hayward then because of his role in the offense. He would have killed then for the looks he gets in Boston now.
I think people are dismissing the possibility of Heyward returning to peak (or something close it it) form too easily, but I'd agree with everyone who says that it is in no way a sure thing. My point is more that what he is doing (and not doing) now isn't proof (or strong evidence) either way.
Yes. I think he'll be fine in the playoffs - as a deep bench guy who might get the occasional meaningful minute or two but isn't a regular rotation player. Also, there might be good and bad matchups for him.
Hayward's wife gave birth to a daughter last night. Wonder if that will render him out tomorrow?
No one compared Hayward to Hill with the exception of the fact that Hill's career was derailed by an ankle injury.
His missed 3 impression was off; should have been a clanked brick off the back iron and backboard.
It’s not exactly easy to work out your upper body when your lower body is devastatingly broken. Sure, you can get a lackey to carry around and set up the weights for you, but you’re still using you lower body for stabilization, especially on heavy lifts. I’m not saying it’s impossbie, but a regression in that area shouldn’t be surprising.
Since this is likely to get some discussion, lets get it out there. I chose to put it here because its more a general Celtics topic than a Hayward one.
From Jeff Goodman (and I dont normally read Celtics-centric writers but I do follow Goodman):
I don't think any of this is particularly controversial but since this is the NBA and the NBA loves drama, its likely to get some play.
From Jeff Goodman (and I dont normally read Celtics-centric writers but I do follow Goodman):
The same anonymous Warriors player (my guess is that its Durant or Draymond) said that "the Celtics ‘needed to make a move,’ suggesting that this current group of players doesn’t have what it needs to compete with the likes of the Warriors."
I don't think any of this is particularly controversial but since this is the NBA and the NBA loves drama, its likely to get some play.
Definitely solid confirmation that everyone else sees what we see. I would dispute the need to make a move. The Celtics’ top 8-9 guys can go toe to toe with anyone when they’re healthy and on their game.
I've resigned myself to GH being a lost cause this year. A role player but no more. If he's not dramatically close to his old self next year, well it's a shame but there's no blame to go around and we make do with it
I posted in it in the gamethread and many others here have noted something similar. If you look at certain metrics - I used game score as a rough proxy though its a flawed statistic at best - Hayward is making progress. Of his highest game scores this season, six have occurred in December and January and four of those six are this month.
That said, he is clearly struggling and on some nights, he looks totally lost. Recovery is such a non-linear process that its tough for all involved but mainly for the person going through it. I imagine Hayward is more bummed than just about everyone else that he isn't where he wants/needs to be. However the overall trend seems to be positive even if it doesn't appear to be so while watching individual games.
That said, he is clearly struggling and on some nights, he looks totally lost. Recovery is such a non-linear process that its tough for all involved but mainly for the person going through it. I imagine Hayward is more bummed than just about everyone else that he isn't where he wants/needs to be. However the overall trend seems to be positive even if it doesn't appear to be so while watching individual games.
Is it fair to say that he looks most lost/slow/behind against teams that are the most athletic? He looked like he was geriatric last night - but the Warriors demand the most of an opponent in terms of athleticism, rotations, focus.
Carmello Anthony is probably my least favorite NBA player ever, but if the Celtics signed Melo and gave him Hayward's minutes they would have a better chance of winning a playoff series against a good team than they do now. They'd also have a better chance with Ojeleye taking those minutes.
Meh I don’t agree with this at all. We can compete with anyone AT HOME which is the case with pretty much every above-.500 team in the league. Last night we were rested and ready vs a road weary Warriors team, gave them our best shot and fell short. What have we done on the road against the non-lottery teams thus far? What is our best road win.....OKC? Minnesota? Whenever we’ve faced a real good team on the road we’ve lost and oftentimes in fairly convincing fashion.
I’m not delineating between home and road so not sure why you chose to go down that route. From a talent standpoint, we have the guys to compete with basically every team. Hayward isn’t healthy yet and the team hasn’t fully gelled so I’m not going to look at some road losses in Nov-Jan and conclude that they won’t be able to give the top teams a tough series come Apr/May.
And if the home/road thing remains true, then they have to protect home court, where they’re generally tough, and take 1 Game on the road. Won’t be easy but far from daunting.
The play when Hayward used an up-fake to go right and was blocked by Jaylen who for whatever reason decided to occupy that space should be used in this years season recap video. Teams gel naturally as Boogie is in Golden State.....you cannot force chemistry, the game of basketball doesn't work this way.
If you have an agenda and are overly pessimistic, sure. He's coming back from a major injury and also had a mild set back. I thought he'd be better by now but it's still way too soon to write him off. And as bad as he's been, he'd still be a rotational player on any team in the league.
Hyperbole is fun though.
Its not health per se, its the progression from not being able to bear weight on your lower extremity to figuring out what you can and can't do in terms of jumping and cutting. Having suffered a pretty bad ankle injury in my early 20s when I played lots of sports, albeit recreationally, I can tell you that it took me a long time to get back to the point where I didn't think about my injury while playing and had most of my range of motion back.
Its true that Hayward has the benefit of a bunch of doctors and trainers as well as state of the art procedures designed to get him back to what he was or close to it. However its no surprise that even with the benefit of those resources, he still doesn't look like himself most nights. He may not look like that until later this year, or next year or never at all. I think its too soon to give up on him improving as the season moves along.
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Or the team never deserved all the hype we were giving it and we just bought into it. That and the league is stronger this year all around and the east is far more top heavy. We were expecting big leaps from Tatum, Brown and Rozier and that didn't happen. On top of that, Hayward and Horford are good players but they are clearly in that 2nd tier of player. Even if he was never injured, I'm not sure Hayward is material better than a guy like Khris Middleton.
If you were to judge rosters based on talent, I could see the Celtics falling anywhere from 5-10 behind GS, Milwaukee, Denver and Toronto. I'm not sure the talent on our roster is all that much better than Portland, Philly, or OKC.
It's not time to move on from GH because you'd get 6 cents on the dollar for him. It's time to realize that this year is going to have to be considered his year to get comfortable from the almost catastrophic injury he had, and hopefully next year is what we all expected/hoped this year would be.
I'm not advocating trading him--he's untradeable even for 6 cents on the dollar-- I'm advocating benching him. Maybe he comes back 100% next year (although I doubt it). As for making the finals, they were one quarter away last year without Hayward. I'll take my chances with Ojeleye. His efg percentage isn't much worse than Haywards, and Ojeleye's defense is way better.
That was last year in a notoriously weak Eastern conference. Apples and oranges.
Hayward 107.5 ORtg, 104.1 DRtg this year
Ojeleye 103.5 ORtg, 96.1 DRtg this year.
I guess if you think Ojeleye could keep those ratings going from 10 minutes a night to 30... it might make sense to do that. I have serious doubts those numbers would hold with the huge increase in playing time though. I think his numbers are largely a byproduct of being used in ideal situations and that he would struggle against certain players. Even bumping Semi to 30 minutes a night... you still need to replace another 5 minutes of Hayward.
Seriously though, you are talking about making the NBA finals while playing Semi Ojeleye 30 minutes a game yet you think it's impossible for the C's to make the finals with Hayward playing.
Something between 65-70% of Semi's shots are from 10"+. He is shooting around .265 from 10+ out.
Something between 65-70% of Semi's shots are from 10"+. He is shooting around .265 from 10+ out.
Look. Hayward's not close to pre-injury form. As I said in the other thread, the Celtics need to think about how to manage his recovery from here on out in the way that sets him up best to handle some kind of playoff role. If that's more time off, he should get more time off. If it is playing every minute of game time the Celtics can afford to give him, they should be dong that.
I don't think it's reasonable to write off his whole future, though, until we've seen him have a full offseason program, which he didn't have. Maybe the Celtics would have been better served to let him have his full offseason program in October, November, and December, but it is too late tfor that now and maybe the added time away from NBA games would have had its own ill-effects.
His injury was worse than Paul George's, so it is no surprise that his return to the game is less smooth.
I don't think it's reasonable to write off his whole future, though, until we've seen him have a full offseason program, which he didn't have. Maybe the Celtics would have been better served to let him have his full offseason program in October, November, and December, but it is too late tfor that now and maybe the added time away from NBA games would have had its own ill-effects.
His injury was worse than Paul George's, so it is no surprise that his return to the game is less smooth.
This.
Also, to remind people, George had the benefit of coming back at the end of the season following his injury so he got some playing-out-the-string games against actual NBA players after his rehab and then had the luxury of a full summer to train. Hayward essentially started training in the mid-offseason because of the second procedure and then jumped right back into NBA action. The medical professionals amongst us are better qualified to discuss this but my understanding is that injuries like Hayward's aren't the kind where, once you are cleared to play, you can simply bounce right back.
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I think it's time to remind you that the medical experts predicted that it would take at least a full season for Hayward to come back to his pre-injury form (which is not guaranteed).
Hayward's not being benched. His minutes will fluctuate, and his role may very well evolve over the season. But Semi is not going to take his minutes.
Also, the Celtics are not making the Finals regardless. Unfortunately, the team is probably another star player away, especially with Horford's regression defensively. There are likely no new stars walking through that door in either the near or distant future, so you may as well let it play out and hope for the best.
Ojeleye may not work out. He's been a lousy offensive player in the NBA. But Hayward isn't working out either, so I'm willing to gamble.
Hayward is painful to watch. The last straw against the Warriors was him trying to dribble through two players and turning it over. Hayward has had flashes, obviously, but against good defenders he's at best passive and at worst terrible.
Ojeleye probably gains you nothing at the offensive end. But he does on defense.
Hayward won't be benched (Stevens will never do it) and he can't be traded. So let's wait until next year (again).
Since 11/23 (27 games), Hayward is averaging 11.2 points, 4.3 rebounds, 3.6 assists in 25.2 mpg on .438/.340/.851 shooting. His career shooting numbers are .443/.364/.822.
All of his rate stats are in line with the rest of his career outside of usage and his shooting percentages. Even then, Hayward has had some pretty meh shooting years. His line isn't far off from the .433/.349/.824 he shot in 15/16, and it's actually better than the .413/.304/.816 he shot in 13/14. He's had huge swings in his 3 point % from year to year. .473, .346, .415, .304, .364, .349, .398, .000*, .317.
All of his rate stats are in line with the rest of his career outside of usage and his shooting percentages. Even then, Hayward has had some pretty meh shooting years. His line isn't far off from the .433/.349/.824 he shot in 15/16, and it's actually better than the .413/.304/.816 he shot in 13/14. He's had huge swings in his 3 point % from year to year. .473, .346, .415, .304, .364, .349, .398, .000*, .317.
Maybe we should throw out Hayward's numbers from his first two years in the league before making numerical comparisons? That's not what Angle paid $120M for.
As for guys jumping over Ojeleye, those same guys would jump over Hayward.
Semi’s numbers are a credit to Brad’s usage of him. Semi is really only useful when he can guard a frontcourt player without a good jump shot. That’s a group that includes Giannis and (arguably) Simmons, so Semi might make a contribution come playoff time, but he’s unplayable against a lot of teams.
You may be right. But I'd love Stevens to test your theory by giving Ojeleye 25 minutes for 4-5 consecutive games. What have they got to lose? Hayward might benefit from the extra rest before the playoffs.
Even removing those 2 years, his rate stats are basically the same. Removing his first 2 years, he is now a career .440/.361/.824 shooter instead of a .443/.364/.824 shooter. He actually gets worse when you remove his first 2 years. His rebound % is at a career high this year, and his assist % of 18.6% is right in line with the 18.2% he posted in 14/15 and 15/16. His steal rate is at 1.8%, higher than the 1.7% and 1.5% he posted in 14/15 and 15/16. His block rate is 0.9%, right in line with the .8 and .6. His TO% is 12.5%, same as the 12.5% in 14/15, but worse than his 9.4% in 16/17. That 9.4% is a career high by a large mark, as the 12.5% is the 3rd best of his career.
So yeah, you were saying something about those first 2 years? He's mathematically the same player he has always been. He's just getting less attempts and shooting worse... and he hasn't even really been shooting worse for close to 2 months.
edit: He's obviously not the same player but math says he is.