Celtics 2019-2020 depth chart and roster

DrewDawg

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when does Felger start his hot take? since the Nets trade, the only non-lottery draft picks to pan out into legit NBA players are Kelly Olynyk, Marcus Smart and Terry Rozier

I'll hang up and listen
Sounds like you did the hot take.
 

bowiac

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Probably not too early on Semi I'm gonna say, but he's a 2nd round pick, so whatever.

But generally, yes, drafting is hard. Name a good drafter. Most of their picks going forward are gonna be busts.
 

OurF'ingCity

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when does Felger start his hot take? since the Nets trade, the only non-lottery draft picks to pan out into legit NBA players are Kelly Olynyk, Marcus Smart and Terry Rozier

I'll hang up and listen
I'd look at it the reverse way - since the Nets trade, the Celtics have basically nailed all of their (relatively few) lottery picks, which is about as good as you can hope for given that non-lottery picks are always a crapshoot.
 

Lazy vs Crazy

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Probably not too early on Semi I'm gonna say, but he's a 2nd round pick, so whatever.

But generally, yes, drafting is hard. Name a good drafter. Most of their picks going forward are gonna be busts.
Drafting is hard, but I think you can point to Danny not picking much in the way of high end talent. He's been GM for over 15 years now and has drafted one player that made an all star game (unless I'm missing someone besides Rondo).

Brown and Tatum could turn that around in a few years though.
 

DrewDawg

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So what you're saying is that once he picked near the top of the draft he drafted guys that could/should/might make all star team? ;)

How many top 10 picks has he made? Foye (traded), Smart, Brown, Tatum?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Drafting is hard, but I think you can point to Danny not picking much in the way of high end talent. He's been GM for over 15 years now and has drafted one player that made an all star game (unless I'm missing someone besides Rondo).

Brown and Tatum could turn that around in a few years though.
Yes but if you go through his drafts, most of his non-Nets draft picks have been in the teens or lower.

In 2006, he had the #7 pick but traded it away (turned out to be Randy Foye) and ended up with one of the two best players from that draft (Rajan Rondo).

2007 was Jeff Green and while DA didn't draft an All-Star, he traded for a HOFer. Not bad.

2014 was Marcus, and while he hasn't been an All-Star, he is First Team All-Defensive.

According to this website - https://247sports.com/nba/mavericks/Board/103445/Contents/Odds-of-career-all-star-selections-by-draft-position-102419898/ - chances of drafting an All-Star with a pick in the teens or below starts at approximately 2.5% and drops from there. Without counting, if Ainge drafted 1 All-Star out of 50 picks (estimating at 16 seasons; 3 picks a season) would be about average.
 

Koufax

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Several years ago someone here did an pretty exhaustive analysis and came to the conclusion that Danny is an average drafter. Nothing since has changed that for me. His strength is in deal-making, at which he generally excels.
 

lovegtm

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Several years ago someone here did an pretty exhaustive analysis and came to the conclusion that Danny is an average drafter. Nothing since has changed that for me. His strength is in deal-making, at which he generally excels.
And that was before drafting Tatum and Brown, whose stories are far from over. It’s crazy how much of drafting success comes from a couple guys—it’s a lot closer to VC than to private equity.
 

Captaincoop

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The 2014 draft pool was terrible. Marcus Smart isn't a super result from a #6 pick in general, but that year, Danny couldn't have done much better.

Tatum was a super home run, especially given that Fultz was the consensus, safe #1 pick going into the draft.

Brown...meh. He's a contributor, but Hield and Murray were both projected higher and have been better so far in the league. Could have been worse with Bender or Dunn, though.
 

Big John

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The 2014 draft pool was terrible. Marcus Smart isn't a super result from a #6 pick in general, but that year, Danny couldn't have done much better.
Well that Jokic guy taken at #41 can play a little. So can Capela (#25), Bogdanovic (#27), G. Harris (#19) J. Harris (#33) and Dinwiddie (#38)--all taken after James Young.
 
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Jul 15, 2005
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Marcus Smart was the #6 overall pick, he’s not “non-lottery.”

Most non-lottery picks don’t amount to much.

Why the arbitrary cutoff of the Nets trade?

It’s way too early for a lot of recent picks like Robert Williams, Grant Williams, even Semi Ojeleye.

What do we care about what Felger thinks?

Just an odd post.
"Then the list gets even worse! The league only valued 2 of Danny's non-lottery picks with large contracts!"

Drafting is hard, but I think you can point to Danny not picking much in the way of high end talent. He's been GM for over 15 years now and has drafted one player that made an all star game (unless I'm missing someone besides Rondo).

Brown and Tatum could turn that around in a few years though.
Several years ago someone here did an pretty exhaustive analysis and came to the conclusion that Danny is an average drafter. Nothing since has changed that for me. His strength is in deal-making, at which he generally excels.
"Then why collect all those drafts when you can't pick good players!"
Sounds like you did the hot take.
(ok, that's all i got..i'm done)
 

Captaincoop

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Well that Jokic guy taken at #41 can oplay a little. So can Capela (#25), Bogdanovic (#27), Harris (#19) Harris (#33) and Dinwiddie (#38)--all taken after James Young.
Well, it's not really fair to expect him to take a guy the league valued at #41 at #6. Sometimes an under the radar guy just blows up.

As for the James Young pick...that was bad. I was all over Gary Harris there.
 

bowiac

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Several years ago someone here did an pretty exhaustive analysis and came to the conclusion that Danny is an average drafter. Nothing since has changed that for me. His strength is in deal-making, at which he generally excels.
I think that was me. He came in a bit above average, but close enough that it wasn't discernible from variance to me. Tatum is a pretty big hit since then (given he dodged Fultz), while Brown remains a TBD. He hasn't done very well with picks in the teens and beyond, but again, pretty much nobody other than the Spurs has reliably developed talent at those picks. He's bled some value there probably however.
 

benhogan

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Probably not too early on Semi I'm gonna say, but he's a 2nd round pick, so whatever.

But generally, yes, drafting is hard. Name a good drafter. Most of their picks going forward are gonna be busts.
Presti had a nice run with some lottery picks and Ibaka

I like what Denver has been doing recently
 

Big John

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Well, it's not really fair to expect him to take a guy the league valued at #41 at #6. Sometimes an under the radar guy just blows up.

As for the James Young pick...that was bad. I was all over Gary Harris there.
Yes, I think Smart was the right pick at #6. He's a very good player. I was responding to your initial statement that the 2014 draft pool was terrible, and I thought you were referring to the entire pool, not just the plausible choices at #6.
 

chilidawg

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Toronto has hit with Siakam, Anunoby and Delon Wright of late, all in the 20's. Milwaukee had a winner with Giannis at 15, but hasn't done well otherwise with their firsts. Their seconds have come up with Brogdon, McCaw, Sindarius Thornwell and Norman Powell though.

Someone somewhere must have done some analysis of who the good drafters are.
 

Koufax

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I think that was me. He came in a bit above average, but close enough that it wasn't discernible from variance to me. Tatum is a pretty big hit since then (given he dodged Fultz), while Brown remains a TBD. He hasn't done very well with picks in the teens and beyond, but again, pretty much nobody other than the Spurs has reliably developed talent at those picks. He's bled some value there probably however.
If you had to predict, how do you think his picks this year will pan out? Personally I'm not so impressed with his first round picks but am surprised at the potential that he has been able to extract from the second round ... and beyond.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Celticsblog floated the idea that they could convert Waters’ two-way contract into the full roster spot vacated by Yabu and then hand Tacko a two-way with the spot that frees up. Does that sound like a better way of keeping Tacko than using Yabu’s spot?
I could see this happening later on, if Waters and Fall both impress in camp.
 

Big John

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Toronto has hit with Siakam, Anunoby and Delon Wright of late, all in the 20's. Milwaukee had a winner with Giannis at 15, but hasn't done well otherwise with their firsts. Their seconds have come up with Brogdon, McCaw, Sindarius Thornwell and Norman Powell though.

Someone somewhere must have done some analysis of who the good drafters are.
It seems to me that there are drafting mistakes that, even though egregious, don't matter that much in the long run. There are other mistakes that are franchise-altering. Taking Antoine Walker instead of Kobe Bryant in 1996 looks perfectly reasonable, even today. But it was franchise altering. In my view the same holds true for taking Olynyk instead of Giannis in 2013. Sure Olynyk is a decent NBA player, but Giannis is a superstar.
 

bowiac

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Toronto has hit with Siakam, Anunoby and Delon Wright of late, all in the 20's. Milwaukee had a winner with Giannis at 15, but hasn't done well otherwise with their firsts. Their seconds have come up with Brogdon, McCaw, Sindarius Thornwell and Norman Powell though.

Someone somewhere must have done some analysis of who the good drafters are.
I did this a few years back, and it was basically the Spurs, and everyone else. I may refresh this at some point, though it's always a pain to sort out who really drafted who given how the NBA handles draft day trades.

If you had to predict, how do you think his picks this year will pan out? Personally I'm not so impressed with his first round picks but am surprised at the potential that he has been able to extract from the second round ... and beyond.
I'm not a draftnik, but I'm a big fan of Grant Williams in a rich man's PJ Tucker sort of way. I'm not a fan of the Romeo pick. I don't much value HS pedigree, and he seems like a "low feel" guy. Edwards could be good, but tough to read much into summer league from a guy like him.
 

Swedgin

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Toronto has hit with Siakam, Anunoby and Delon Wright of late, all in the 20's. Milwaukee had a winner with Giannis at 15, but hasn't done well otherwise with their firsts. Their seconds have come up with Brogdon, McCaw, Sindarius Thornwell and Norman Powell though.

Someone somewhere must have done some analysis of who the good drafters are.
Are we citing Norm Powell and Thornwell as evidence of Milwaukee's prowess in talent evaluation? The Bucks sold Thornwell to the Clips, who just waived him. Powell was thrown into the reprehensible Greivis Vasquez trade with the Raptors. That's like patting Detroit on the back for drafting Middleton.
 

chilidawg

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Are we citing Norm Powell and Thornwell as evidence of Milwaukee's prowess in talent evaluation? The Bucks sold Thornwell to the Clips, who just waived him. Powell was thrown into the reprehensible Greivis Vasquez trade with the Raptors. That's like patting Detroit on the back for drafting Middleton.
Powell was a rotation guy for the NBA champs, so that's a pretty good outcome imo. Thornwell might have been a stretch, but he's at least playing in the League, I thought he looked okay for the Clips last year. Again, these are second round picks, so the bar is low.
 

Captaincoop

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It seems to me that there are drafting mistakes that, even though egregious, don't matter that much in the long run. There are other mistakes that are franchise-altering. Taking Antoine Walker instead of Kobe Bryant in 1996 looks perfectly reasonable, even today. But it was franchise altering. In my view the same holds true for taking Olynyk instead of Giannis in 2013. Sure Olynyk is a decent NBA player, but Giannis is a superstar.
The Celtics made tons of drafting mistakes in the 90's, but that one wasn't their fault. Bryant was threatening (plausibly) to go play in Italy if he didn't get to the Lakers.

Calling Olynyk over Giannis a huge mistake just seems like revisionist history. Giannis was considered a very risky play leading up to that draft.
 

benhogan

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I really like the Grant Wiliams as a rich man's PJ Tucker comp. GW feels like a unique player, that enjoys working on his body/game/3pt shooting. He's got the girth/strength/BBIQ/overall size to handle switches on to BIGs. But see him as a Swing/4/PF/big wing. If I squint I can envision him doing a lot of what Al Horford did on offense (please Brad don't make Grant a small ball 5). The Celtics will get the most out of GW if he is paired up with a long/springy/shot blocking 5. Myles Turner pipe dream or Nerlens Noel on Dec 15th (for a 2nd rounder) or TL for the time being or maybe Tacko eventually.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I really like the Grant Wiliams as a rich man's PJ Tucker comp. GW feels like a unique player, that enjoys working on his body/game/3pt shooting. He's got the girth/strength/BBIQ/overall size to handle switches on to BIGs. But see him as a Swing/4/PF/big wing. If I squint I can envision him doing a lot of what Al Horford did on offense (please Brad don't make Grant a small ball 5). The Celtics will get the most out of GW if he is paired up with a long/springy/shot blocking 5. Myles Turner pipe dream or Nerlens Noel on Dec 15th (for a 2nd rounder) or TL for the time being or maybe Tacko eventually.
Tacko will never be springy. I do think Grant can do some of the Horford stuff on offense.
 

Big John

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The Celtics made tons of drafting mistakes in the 90's, but that one wasn't their fault. Bryant was threatening (plausibly) to go play in Italy if he didn't get to the Lakers.

Calling Olynyk over Giannis a huge mistake just seems like revisionist history. Giannis was considered a very risky play leading up to that draft.
So call them understandable mistakes, whatever. The fact is that they were franchise-altering decisions. Bryant has since said publicly that he enjoyed his Boston workout and would have signed here in 1996. Charlotte is the team he didn't want to play for, and maybe someone in the Boston front office should have figured that out.

In 2013 both Ainges made multiple trips to Greece to watch Giannis play. You could see even then that he was an enthusiastic kid with a huge smile who loved to play. Sure it was a risk, but in my viewe one worth taking in the late lottery.

When you evaluate drafts its always revisionist history, since with a few exceptions at the top (e.g. LeBron types), it's often two years or more before "upside" plays itself out. Sometimes you lose. I would have taken Dragan Bender over Jaylen Brown (and today I would take Sabonis over either of them). So three years later I look silly----but no sillier than Ainge did when he renounced the tream's rights in Olynyk to clear cap space for Hayward.
 

OurF'ingCity

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So call them understandable mistakes, whatever. The fact is that they were franchise-altering decisions. Bryant has since said publicly that he enjoyed his Boston workout and would have signed here in 1996. Charlotte is the team he didn't want to play for, and maybe someone in the Boston front office should have figured that out.

In 2013 both Ainges made multiple trips to Greece to watch Giannis play. You could see even then that he was an enthusiastic kid with a huge smile who loved to play. Sure it was a risk, but in my viewe one worth taking in the late lottery.

When you evaluate drafts its always revisionist history, since with a few exceptions at the top (e.g. LeBron types), it's often two years or more before "upside" plays itself out. Sometimes you lose. I would have taken Dragan Bender over Jaylen Brown (and today I would take Sabonis over either of them). So three years later I look silly----but no sillier than Ainge did when he renounced the tream's rights in Olynyk to clear cap space for Hayward.
This is such a hot take. Please point me to one other team that hasn't "missed" on a similar number of players. With Giannis in particular half the league passed on him - and at least Olynyk provided more value to the Celtics than, say, Shabazz Muhammad (who was taken right after Olynyk and before Giannis) did for Minny.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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In 2013 both Ainges made multiple trips to Greece to watch Giannis play. You could see even then that he was an enthusiastic kid with a huge smile who loved to play. Sure it was a risk, but in my viewe one worth taking in the late lottery.
DA has been pretty upfront about Giannis and said that while he liked him he never in a million years envisioned what Giannis turned into. If you think that's a failure you're certainly entitled to your opinion but the Cs needed assets for two reasons: (i) to get better assets back and (ii) to lure FAs to Boston. I don't see KO as a mark against DA but maybe I'm an easy grader.
 

ehaz

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If RWIII can consistently play with the effort, passing, and BBIQ he showed last night, he’s going to be a heck of a player. It might not happen this year, but I’m really excited for the Williams duo.
 

lovegtm

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Powell was a rotation guy for the NBA champs, so that's a pretty good outcome imo. Thornwell might have been a stretch, but he's at least playing in the League, I thought he looked okay for the Clips last year. Again, these are second round picks, so the bar is low.
I think his point is that Powell quickly ended up on another team, so MIL shouldn't get points for drafting him.
 

Big John

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This is such a hot take. Please point me to one other team that hasn't "missed" on a similar number of players. With Giannis in particular half the league passed on him - and at least Olynyk provided more value to the Celtics than, say, Shabazz Muhammad (who was taken right after Olynyk and before Giannis) did for Minny.
Call it a "hot take" if you like, but of the 14 general managers who passed on Giannis only Ainge, Presti (who took Steven Adams) and Lindsey (who passed on Giannis but snagged Gobert at #27) still have NBA jobs. The others have all been fired.

Sure, lots of teams miss on lots of players. Some teams, like the Spurs, miss less. Ainge is middle-of-the-road as a drafter in my opinion, although he's made great trades.
I'll go on record to state that I don't like the Langford pick; I would have selected Doumbouya. Maybe three years from now Langford will be an all-star and Doumbouya will be playing Pro A in Strasbourg or Dijon, but I would still take that risk.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I'll go on record to state that I don't like the Langford pick; I would have selected Doumbouya. Maybe three years from now Langford will be an all-star and Doumbouya will be playing Pro A in Strasbourg or Dijon, but I would still take that risk.
Good breakdown on Langford's shot and some mechanical issues here: https://hoosierstateofmind.com/2019/07/11/41024/

The article points out that Langford has much better mechanics off the dribble than he does in catch and shoot situations. If he can get more consistency in his mechanics, he'll be an exciting player.
 

ehaz

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Langford is also an outstanding finisher at the rim and routinely made buckets at Indiana that he had no business making in a a Kyrie-seque fashion. The guy had a FG of 63.5% on 2 point shots before the Duke game when he tore a ligament in his thumb. Watch some of those games. Those buckets were not easy layups and Indiana was often a one-man offense. If they fix his shot (he was a good shooter in high school), he could become one of the best offensive players in his draft class. Langford is absolutely the type of high upside player that Danny should be drafting yet somehow folks hate this pick while simultaneously faulting Danny for not drafting high ceiling players in other drafts.

The guy chose not to have thumb surgery and just sit out the rest of the season because he wanted to try to lead his hometown team. If he did what Darius Garland did after the injury, where would he have gone in the draft?

From his teammate, senior Juwan Morgan:

“He was definitely the best teammate I’ve ever been with,” Morgan said. “All the guys will attest to that, Romeo was not a bad teammate at all. If you were there in the locker room and during practice, you would see the pain he’s going through with his hand. He was in treatment more than anyone else I’ve ever been around, and I’ve been around a lot of injured guys.”

 

Big John

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Hope you guys are right and I am wrong. But the NBA is full of 6-6 guys who are pretty good but not great. You can pick up guys like that for a song. Doumbouya is young and raw but he's 6-9 with a good wingspan and tremendous athleticism. He did quite well at age 17 in French Pro A, which is stronger competition than NCAA ball. Could he be a total bust? Sure. But at some point you have to find stars.
 

Shore Thing

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So call them understandable mistakes, whatever. The fact is that they were franchise-altering decisions. Bryant has since said publicly that he enjoyed his Boston workout and would have signed here in 1996. Charlotte is the team he didn't want to play for, and maybe someone in the Boston front office should have figured that out.
Bryant is savvy and experienced in the public domain and therefore I can assume:
1. OF COURSE he would say after the fact that he "would have signed here in 1996." Doesn't make it true whatsoever
2. Your conclusion that "the Boston front office should have figured that out" is not realistic or logical. False premise.
 

Big John

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Bryant is savvy and experienced in the public domain and therefore I can assume:
1. OF COURSE he would say after the fact that he "would have signed here in 1996." Doesn't make it true whatsoever
2. Your conclusion that "the Boston front office should have figured that out" is not realistic or logical. False premise.
Sure, maybe Kobe was lying. You don't know and neither do I. And if they knew he wanted to be a Laker, they could have drafted him anyway, and traded him for Vlade Divac, just as Charlotte did. In either case you wind up with a player better than Walker, whom Ainge ignominiously dumped a few years later for Jiri Welsch and a crippled Raef LaFrentz with 6 years and $70M left on his deal.
 

Cellar-Door

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Sure, maybe Kobe was lying. You don't know and neither do I. And if they knew he wanted to be a Laker, they could have drafted him anyway, and traded him for Vlade Divac, just as Charlotte did. In either case you wind up with a player better than Walker, whom Ainge ignominiously dumped a few years later for Jiri Welsch and a crippled Raef LaFrentz with 6 years and $70M left on his deal.
A few years being 7 years, 3 All-Star appearances and an ECF run later. Walker from that point was a more valuable player than Divac, especially for a terrible rebuilding team
 

Cellar-Door

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Vlade was also an all-star. But the real question is whether or not Kobe would have stayed.
Sure, but arguing that you can make that determination better than the people who were actually involved is just silly. They talked to him, they decided he probably wasn't going to sign, they moved on. Also Kobe is a serial liar and dirtbag, so taking anything he says at face value is a joke.
 

DrewDawg

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Uh-oh....This is the first time hearing this, Romeo working on a hitch with his shot

This isn't new. There were pics posted in the Romeo thread about this a week and half ago and comments in other threads since then.
 

benhogan

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This isn't new. There were pics posted in the Romeo thread about this a week and half ago and comments in other threads since then.
thanks. somehow missed it

Is it the ping pong paddle photo? I remember reading about his left thumb being too involved in his shot and needed some work on his mechanics.

But that's different than a "hitch", which is the word Brad used?
 
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