Foxboro is deserted for the next 30 days. Bill is either fishing or traveling.
Also, not much to say right now.
CB Jack Jones Arrested at Logan for Having 2 Firearms in His Bag
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Also, not much to say right now.
"The Patriots confirmed the arrest in a statement.
“We have been notified that Jack Jones was arrested at Logan Airport earlier today,” the statement said. “We are in the process of gathering more information and will not be commenting further at this time.”
https://www.wbur.org/news/2023/06/17/patriots-player-jack-jones-arrested-at-boston-airport-after-guns-found-in-luggage-police-say
“We have been notified that Jack Jones was arrested at Logan Airport earlier today,” the statement said. “We are in the process of gathering more information and will not be commenting further at this time.”
https://www.wbur.org/news/2023/06/17/patriots-player-jack-jones-arrested-at-boston-airport-after-guns-found-in-luggage-police-say
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Its only a mandatory minimum if he's convicted or pleads guilty to *that* charge. If he has no priors anywhere (I suspect the Mass authorities will look into his record before pleading him out), they'll probably accept a plea to something not prison-worthy. And if it's only just this time, and he's properly credentialed wherever he's supposed to be, its unlikely the Feds will get involved. At the other extreme, if it turns out he was really bringing he guns to Mass for a guy who is prohibited from owning them, we'll never see him again.
He does have a prior. Robbed a Panda Express while at USC (?)
I doubt Rog does anything for now but I think Jones is going to struggle avoiding doing some time for this. Two guns does sort of sound like smuggling...
It doesn’t make any sense for him to be smuggling guns. He likely acquired them in AZ. Arizona doesn’t require permits. It’s not like he can’t buy guns there. The burglary charge was plead down to a misdemeanor. There’s no obstacle to him buying or owning guns.
I agree with most of this - but wanted to note he was arrested for bringing guns from MA into Logan and attempting to fly out somewhere. (Possibly AZ but who knows?)
His personal background will be in play re: the charging decisions - there's been some reporting on a prior conviction for a misdemeanor burglary. https://www.bostonherald.com/2022/04/30/patriots-fourth-round-rookie-cb-jack-jones-addresses-2018-arrest/ Some state prosecutors might get mildly worked up about that, others might think it nothing, depending on the underlying facts. Luck of the draw.
People say the damndest things when they're arrested, so it's possible Jones might have already given the arresting agencies the history of the firearms and their actual or intended use. That could range from benign to criminal. Criminal would be a bit convoluted though. Like if they weren't his guns or something. But the most likely scenario is that he just packed his own handguns. And even in that scenario, we're information poor; we only have photos of the guns after they have been "made safe" - issues of their state when found (e.g., being loaded, or boxed (or not), or with trigger locks in place, or factors that go to immediate accessibility by Jones or others) will likely be factors a prosecutor would consider.
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While I can't (and don't) offer legal advice in threads like these, I'll make an exception here: Do NOT fuck around with this stuff on the basis of some guy's opinion on the internet and anecdotal stories about people not being prosecuted. If you are going to be traveling with firearms, consult with multiple reputable sources, including an attorney who is well-versed on these issues. Here endeth my official advice.
I'm just glad no one was hurt and here's hoping he learns from it. Young guy doing stupid things only works for so long. His agent, somebody, should be sitting him down and pointing out how much money a back-up vet CB makes in the league. That seems his floor given the promise he's shown so far. Above all teams, the Pats can point to AH as a cautionary tale when you choose unwisely. BB has shown a tolerance when there's talent involved - most famously with LT (who's clearly off the charts, talent-wise). Young, cheap talented players are gold in today's NFL. Many wash out due to injuries. It'd be a shame for everyone involved to lose one due to bad judgement. It's unfathomable when someone has such a rare gift and works hard to get to the highest level only to risk it all seemingly so carelessly, but we're all guided by the very personal burdens we secretly bear.
I was flying out of Washington National not too long after 9/11. Right as I walked into the terminal, I realized I had my Leatherman tool in my coat pocket. It's not something I carry around with me but I guess I had just used it for something. I didn't feel like losing it, so I figured I'd try my luck. I went outside and buried it in one of those huge planters that double as barriers. When I returned a couple of days later it was still there. I was pretty pleased with how it turned out.
Years ago I was going to a Warriors game at Oracle with my friend. We were in line to go in the building when he pulls me aside. He had not one, but two full-size Swiss Army knives in his pocket. Beats me why, I'd never seen him pull one out in 15+ years. We went back out near the parking lot where there was a ticket booth to handle overflow A's crowds (yeah right). I took the two knives and put them high above one of the windows - you'd have to be 7' tall to see them there. After the game, they were still there.
Sidebar: My friend's brother was listed in the Guiness Book one year tied with severall people for world's highest IQ. Miss my friend every day - unbelievable guy.
Sidebar: My friend's brother was listed in the Guiness Book one year tied with severall people for world's highest IQ. Miss my friend every day - unbelievable guy.
Two months after 9/11 was going to a Celtics game directly after work. At the time always carried a Swiss Army knife in my pocket just because they're so handy. Get to the turnstiles and see that now everyone has to go through metal detectors. Not wanting to lose the knife as I bought it in Switzerland I see an attendant standing around. Go over and tell him the situation, he clearly is unsure about any protocols but says follow me. Takes me to this little supply closet, opens it and puts it on a shelf next to rolls of paper towels (think bathroom dispensers). Says meet me here after the game.
Game ends, go back to the closet, wait 20-25 minutes start to think maybe this is a lost cause and then he shows up and gives me the knife back.
Had it at 50/50 that I wasn't ever going to see it again, but was very appreciative of what he did. Good guy.
Game ends, go back to the closet, wait 20-25 minutes start to think maybe this is a lost cause and then he shows up and gives me the knife back.
Had it at 50/50 that I wasn't ever going to see it again, but was very appreciative of what he did. Good guy.
Just my personal experience with this type of case as a one time lawyer and now judge who handles these type of cases, I can say the odds are overwhelming that he does time. The crime itself is one that often ends up in time served for those with no prior record. Given nature of crime, where it happened, crowded airport, prior offense, Massachusetts harsh gun laws and the fact that he is a public figure and therefore won’t want it reflected that he is getting a break, I would lean VERY STRONGLY on him going away.
His only chance I see of avoiding time is taking it to trial and winning, but just from the facts suggested here, that is a longshot as of now.
His only chance I see of avoiding time is taking it to trial and winning, but just from the facts suggested here, that is a longshot as of now.
Jones was arraigned this morning, released on $30,000 bail, and his next hearing in the case is for probable cause on August 18th.
His lawyer comes out swinging to the press after court appearance today:
View: https://twitter.com/michaelFhurley/status/1671162591937441793?s=20
View: https://twitter.com/michaelFhurley/status/1671162591937441793?s=20
What does any of what she's saying have to do with the case?
Let's immediately turn the narrative to race and not the crime of which he is accused.
Let's immediately turn the narrative to race and not the crime of which he is accused.
I haven't been paying that close attention, has the news reporting and social media coverage taken that angle to extreme as his lawyer is projecting?
Here is the whole post appearance PC outside the courthouse.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcXVdGf33zM&t=171s&ab_channel=MassLive
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcXVdGf33zM&t=171s&ab_channel=MassLive
Ben Volin wrote a hit piece in the Globe suggesting that the Pats should cut him immediately. This was before the arraignment.
You're so weird.
This same advice - don't listen to random people on the internet, do your research - could be said in about 30 other threads right now. Its almost like you cant help but direct stuff at me, even when unnecessary.
She’s the attorney who was in Trial 4, a Netflix doc about a kid who got his conviction overturned after years in jail.
From her linkedin: “She has been successful in exposing police misconduct in murder cases that resulted in not guilty verdicts for her clients.”
It's hard to imagine how he could win at trial, other than if the prosecutor went for a harsher crime than was really necessary; e.g. charged him with attempted hijacking.
She's not talking about that (garbage) piece tho -- she's saying there's some social media "rumor" (her word) out there about him being a thug. I haven't heard it either. That whole thing was bizarre.
Beyond all the gun stuff, I'm sort of surprised at how little there has been out there actually describing his previous problems with the law and football programs. The Globe's piece on his arraignment had this timeline:
That's def. ... a lot of stuff. Academic issues after his sophomore year getting him booted off the team. The Panda Express thing (which I'd never seen explained), getting suspended for the duration of 2020 for an unspecified matter. I have a hard time seeing how you stick by a guy with this now happening.
I agree. Also, first she says it's about social media and then talks about institutional racism in the criminal justice system.
We can see how she will proceed with the defense for sure.
There were some good bits in there, but like, maybe if you don't want people to pay attention to social media trolling that your client is a thug. . .perhaps you shouldn't use the word "thug" 50+ times in the interview?
If there truly are good facts, like your client being cooperative and transparent with the police - perhaps make more of that.
I lost a very nice Swiss Army knife at the Roman Colosseum. The usual hiking backpack with a little pocket I forgot about. All so I could take my kids into a hopelessly overcrowded tourist hellscape. Wish I could do that over.
Mix of PR and sending a message to the prosecution that they will have a fight on their hands, so maybe they start working on a deal?
Also doesn't feel like a total coincidence that they went for Gonzalez over other positions in the 1st round plus a couple more depth guys late. Not that they foresaw this but that they might have viewed him as an unreliable character -- or at least a colossal lunkhead.
The Patriots know much more about him than we do of course…. And maybe they should cut him.
But with the limited info we have, even if he gets a suspension, I can’t imagine his NFL career is over.
Someone else is going to take a chance on him, and given the on field start to his career he will probably play well.
Obviously there are some details we don’t know about, but the Patriots feeling obligated to play the role of “moral punisher”… only for someone else to scoop up a starting corner on the cheap isn’t exactly what I’m hoping for.
I assume his lawyer's plan is to make it clear to the DA that this is gonna be a huge pain in the ass (probably in part a response to the DA saying "he could face 30 years if convicted on all charges and sentenced consecutively") she's trying to get the DA to say... yeah, plead to disorderly conduct, surrender the weapons, big fine and some probation, just please go away.
Depending on the personality and motivation level of the DA, seems like this strategy could either work or blow up spectacularly.
Hopefully for Jones’ sake, she knows what she’s doing.
Is the tactic here to use the media to just get one potential juror to buy this institutional racism angle in case it does go to trial?
This is a very experienced attorney who has had a lot of success with difficult, high profile cases. She knows what she's doing. From what she said, it sounds like the defense will rest on the premise that Jones had no knowledge he was carrying the guns. If they can't prove he had knowledge, that could lead to most of the charges getting dismissed (or lessened). Possession of a concealed weapon in a secure area of an airport:
https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIV/TitleI/Chapter269/Section12F
Whoever occupies, or attempts to enter or occupy, a secure area of an airport or the cabin of an airplane, knowingly having in his possession or in his control and knowingly concealing, a cutting device or a prohibited weapon, notwithstanding any license to possess such a weapon or device, shall be punished by imprisonment in the house of correction for not more than 21/2 years or by imprisonment in the state prison for not more than 5 years or by a fine of not more than $5,000, or by both such fine and imprisonment.
I'm not a legal expert by any means but I know there are some on SOSH so I will defer to them.
Also, he was not found guilty of "robbing" a Panda Express. He was found guilty of misdemeanor commercial burglary.
https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIV/TitleI/Chapter269/Section12F
Whoever occupies, or attempts to enter or occupy, a secure area of an airport or the cabin of an airplane, knowingly having in his possession or in his control and knowingly concealing, a cutting device or a prohibited weapon, notwithstanding any license to possess such a weapon or device, shall be punished by imprisonment in the house of correction for not more than 21/2 years or by imprisonment in the state prison for not more than 5 years or by a fine of not more than $5,000, or by both such fine and imprisonment.
I'm not a legal expert by any means but I know there are some on SOSH so I will defer to them.
Also, he was not found guilty of "robbing" a Panda Express. He was found guilty of misdemeanor commercial burglary.
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I would guess the Panda Express story is very similar to the Golden Tate donught incident. Drunk college kids sneaking into a closed store to steal food.
The few legal sites I looked at seemed to all point to a similar strategy for defense. The prosecutor needs to prove he was aware of the guns in his bag. Not sure how hard it is to prove, but this appears to be the most common route taken by defenses on a charge like this.
No. It's far more in the realm of client PR/attorney advertising.
Shrug. I rather doubt that the defense attorney pushing back on social media and "the system" in general is going to raise any eyebrows in the DA's office.
I'd absolutely expect another franker, less rhetorical, and more case-based conversation has (or will) take place between the defense attorney and the ADA.
So, he needs a fall guy to say he packed his luggage and forgot to mention the guns?
Feels that way.
Or his girlfriend packed them for his safety and he didn't know.
I mean, seems pretty contrived, but - again, someone with more experience can weigh in - I assume actually proving Jones himself put them in the bag is a fairly high bar to clear, especially with a heavyweight legal team on his side. Probably why we see charges like Quinnen Williams cleared or plead down.
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I don't understand at all how the prosecution is responsible to prove this. (this isn't directly at you personally and I understand burden of guilt is on prosecution). But the guns were in a bag with his name on it, that he personally brought into the airport and attempted to pass through security. Unless he can find someone else to take the fall it's him. Claiming ignorance of the bag's content doesn't waive him of responsibility.
It's just like, someone could bring a bag in with a couple sticks of dynamite or explosives and just say 'oops not mine, don't know where that came from' and they get to go free? That doesn't make sense.
It makes no sense, you are correct.
Wife and I watch Live PD pretty much every weekend. Nearly every single person who is pulled over with drugs in the car tell the cop "that's not mine, I don't know how that got there". Sorry kids, your car, your drugs.
In no conceivable world am I a lawyer, but to what degree can ignorance be used as a valid excuse for breaking any law? I mean, let's be honest, there are thousands of laws just in Massachusetts.
https://www.mass.gov/massachusetts-law-about
I just clicked on "insurance". And another whole list comes up. So I clicked on "automobile insurance" and there are 25 laws and 6 regulations just on this specific, narrow subject.
There's no way that each one of us hasn't broken some law in our respective states just this week (and it's only Wednesday!). Obviously some laws are more serious and important than others, and gun laws are pretty high up there. And Jones has a responsibility to know the rules where he is, but my question is a broader one: courts don't REALLY expect citizens to know every single law, right? That's a totally unrealistic expectation.
For example, did you all know that it is illegal in Massachusetts to transport live chickens into Massachusetts unless under very certain, specific circumstances?
Here's the law (Part I, Title XIX, Chapter 129):
"Section 26B. No person shall buy, sell or transport within or import into the commonwealth hatching eggs, baby chicks or live poultry, except poultry intended for immediate slaughter or for exhibition subject to permit granted by the state department of agriculture, unless such hatching eggs are the produce of flocks which meet, and such baby chicks or live poultry meet or are the first generation progeny of flocks which meet, the minimum requirements for ''pullorum passed'' or ''pullorum clean'' grades of poultry, as established by the commissioner of agriculture, or the equivalent thereof. Whoever, himself or by his servant or agent, violates any provision of this section shall be punished for the first offence by a fine of not more than one hundred dollars, and for a subsequent offence by a fine of not less than fifty nor more than two hundred dollars."
If I'm just a dude in Mass getting chickens from my cousin in Connecticut, I very easily could be violating this law.
Here's the point of all this: I'm wondering simply to what degree ignorance is an acceptable defense when violating a law. Maybe the answer is: NONE. ZERO. ZIP.
But then I'd suggest that we all violate the law pretty regularly, at least SOME law.
Also, don’t you have to rapid fire click “agree” to a bunch of stuff that you packed your bags/know what’s in your bags before getting your boarding pass?
I don’t know when the bags were confiscated or know how those agreements hold up in court, but I assume they make you do it for some reason?
This is not an exact parallel argument. Nobody is saying the guns are not his, it's whether he intended to bring them to the airport, or onto a plane. Another way to think of it would be: if someone accidentally brought weapons into an airport should that constitute them going to prison? People on this very site have owned up to accidentally bringing weapons into a security area so should they, too, pay a similar price?
I think this is right and the parallel you draw is a good one. It's interesting looking at the articles for both Williams and Jones, and how many of them attempt to criminalize the players by suggesting they intended to bring the guns (e.g. https://www.nbcboston.com/news/sports/patriots-jack-jones-arrested-after-trying-to-bring-2-guns-onto-logan-flight-police-say/3070548/)
Then there was the Jeff Howe report with him saying he would be shocked if the Patriots didn't cut him based on the charges, that Jones is "in a lot of trouble," and this is "some serious serious stuff." But isn't it less serious if he indeed didn't intend to bring the guns and made an honest mistake?
In other words, I agree with his lawyer that the media didn't do a good job covering the story. Mostly they focused on his presumed guilt and framed the story in a way to suggest intent.
All crimes are different in severity, no?
To reference a post above, if you brought baby chicks into the state you're breaking the law but nobody is potentially getting harmed.
I'm not sure what falls under your umbrella of bringing weapons to the airport is, but having a reasonably sized knife on your person or bag isn't illegal. You're just not allowed to carry it onto a plane. That's not a crime, they just take it from you, no different then the water bottle I forgot about.
Not really following you here. The lawyer attempted to frame the discussion in that SM and the media immediately jumped to portray him as a thug and that this is the issue that all young black men in this country deal with. While there's certainly truth there on a national level in Jones's case I haven't seen anything of the sort. It's just her attempt to pivot from the actual question of why did he have a bag of guns at the airport.
I'm a bit late to the party here, but will offer my 2 cents. A couple of months after 9/11 my father in law passed away in Florida. My youngest daughter was in high school and used her school back pack as her carry on for the flight. She totally forgot about a small pair of scissors that were inside one of the side pockets. Totally understandable, the scissors were confiscated, no big deal. I cannot fathom a world where one forgets about TWO guns in his carry on luggage. I mean my carry on is used for items I wish to carry on. Did he not place any other articles in the bag? If so, how do you not see two guns and think, "I need to take care of these."?. If he just grabbed the bag and added nothing to it then what did he think accounted for the weight in the bag? I mean maybe he has an identical bag containing toiletries and grabbed the wrong bag, but if that's the case don't you double check to make sure that you've got the right bag?
Good questions. No idea.
Maybe Hanlon's razor is a good guide here: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
(I'm not saying you're claiming that Jones was being in any way malicious. Just that hey, people do stupid things, we forget things, we are absent-minded, we are in a rush, who the hell knows what was going on.)
It wouldn't surprise me at all if Jones sees little more than the minimum here and that he remains a member of the team. IINAL, but while it's going to be difficult to prove intent, the incident can't just be ignored. Pro football is pro football, if this is seen as an "oopsy" there will likely be some sort of minor discipline and/or statement of contrition and life goes on. And if that's the case, none of us should be surprised.
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FWIW, I have a license in MA. I cannot fathom a world where one forgets about two guns anywhere.
But I think that it bears repeating that the rest of the country is not like the northeast. My daughter did a month contract at King's Dominion outside Richmond. First time we entered the park to see her show, there was a 4x8' sign advising to leave your guns in your vehicle. Of course there are signs at Foxboro and Fenway saying that guns are prohibited. But this shocked the hell out of me for two reasons: the size of the sign, and the "leave your guns in your car" messaging. Like, it's assumed there that there's a decent number of people planning to enter a children's amusement park carrying. And the message wasn't "hey jackass, this isn't a place for guns". It was more "hey bud, just a reminder that of course we all have guns, but it would be best if you left it in your car, rather than carrying here."
tl;dr; same planet, different worlds. Dudes forgetting that they had guns on them is not uncommon, depending on where you live.
That's not to excuse Jones at all. The laws are in place for a reason, and we should enforce them as a society. I just wanted to point out that Jones isn't even the first guy associated with the NFL to get grabbed for forgetting his guns in a carry-on. (https://apnews.com/article/3f64d891791866bf1e4e052bc255f392).
But you run into a slippery slope problem. If you say a small knife is fine, what about a larger knife, or a smaller gun? Last year over 6,500 guns (18 guns a day) were found in airport security across the country, 88% of which were loaded. TSA started putting up signs to remind passengers not to carry guns through secure areas of the airport because it was happening so often. So, by your logic, all of those people should go to prison.
https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/interesting-numbers-relevant-to-jack-jones-situation/
I'm not sure about the "thug" part. I realize that was what she focused on and yes, to some degree, she is playing lawyer games. My point is that the media, on a large scale, portrayed him in a way to suggest he intended to bring in the guns, which we don't know is true. They also presumed guilt and focused on the repercussions of his guilt. And, of course, this points to a larger discussion about the way in which the media tends to criminalize black men (the lawyer's larger point).
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