Ben Simmons wants out of Philadelphia

[Cesar Crespo]

It doesn't take a genius head coach or extraordinary roster creation to construct an efficient post-season offense around a rim protecting five, who provides vertical spacing and can shoot (a little) outside of floater range. The same cannot be said for a perimeter player. If Simmons could play the five on defense, ala Draymond, and was willing to shoot just a little, he would have been traded by now because he would fit on a ton of rosters, just not Philly's.



Holding him hostage? Asking a guy with 4 years left on his deal to show up and be a professional, while you look for a deal that makes sense for both sides is now unconscionable? The beginning of camp is the worst possible time to trade anyone.

If you think Simmons' is following a script written by Rich Paul here, then you think Paul is an idiot. The outright refusal to participate in a drill and the phone in the pocket are stupid tactical mistakes. There are far more effective, and less damaging ways, to put pressure on Philly to get a deal done sooner rather than later.

He hasn't been traded because the asking price is too high. That's the only reason. If he kills someone or beats his wife, teams may change their opinion. A cellphone? Nope.

Seems like half of you don't know how the NBA works or are in denial because you hate it.

 

[lexrageorge]

The idea that Simmons is being held "hostage" is non-sensical. Simmons made the choice to not report to camp, and then dog it in practice. Contracts have consequences. One of those consequences is that a trade demand may be deferred until the league's trading window opens up more players in December and again in January.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

The idea that Simmons is being held "hostage" is non-sensical. Simmons made the choice to not report to camp, and then dog it in practice. Contracts have consequences. One of those consequences is that a trade demand may be deferred until the league's trading window opens up more players in December and again in January.

And throwing a player under a bus has consequences. Like him demanding a trade and being a distraction in practice.

 

[benhogan]

We're talking about a max player here. For how many other max players do you need to make these kinds of exceptions? Defense is worth something, but not that much. Especially when we don't have evidence that he would be an all-NBA interior defender.

I know the thinking around here is that 95% of a players' worth is derived from POINTZ (scoring/shooting) so I'm not going to even take that faulty thinking on. So a top 3 defender isn't worth a MAX but a top 25 scorer is, or whatever Deandre Ayton is??? SMH

If Rob Williams can play a full healthy season as a top 3 DPOY, Brad got him on steal of a contract, he'd be worth a MAX contract. Yet he still wouldn't be as good as Ben Simmons.

Ben as a point center/switchy defender would be incredibly effective. It's the main point he/Klutch are making. He just isn't a good fit with Embiid, we've known/discussed this very point in the Cellar for years.

For some unknown reason, Morey/Doc/76er ownership balked at adding James Harden for Simmons/Maxey when they had the chance. Harden with Embiid or Simmons would have been much more efficient than Embiid/Simmons. They are compounding that blunder by making the Simmons Saga (which was started in the post-game presser by Doc/Embiid) a public spectacle much to the delight of 29 other NBA teams/fan bases/reporters.

I'm a little less bullish on Morey after seeing how the Chris Paul deal played out, the mess he left behind in Houston, the China kerfuffle, and now the Simmons Saga. As a Celtics fan I absolutely love this and would like it even more if Brad could capture some value out of their misfortune. Some NBA team is going to buy Simmons low here.

 

[benhogan]

If Simmons could play the five on defense, ala Draymond, and was willing to shoot just a little, he would have been traded by now because he would fit on a ton of rosters, just not Philly's.

I doubt that's the hold-up. Morey is trying to extract the most trade value while putting a few extra dollars in his owners pocket (probably his own down the road)

 

[DJnVa]

What's better? Showing up on time with a cell phone or not showing up at all?

I mean, I don't know--millions of folks have missed flights for lots of reasons. Showing up to work and deliberately showing up your boss in front of everyone is not really something many people do.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

I mean, I don't know--millions of folks have missed flights for lots of reasons. Showing up to work and deliberately showing up your boss in front of everyone is not really something many people do.

But literally no one has missed a team flight. Not "millions of folks."

 

[Red Right Ankle]

What Doc did would be the equivalent of your boss going to the largest conference in your industry, getting up on stage and telling everyone there that you suck and you are the reason your company lost that big deal despite the fact that he was in charge of the deal and has a long track record of fucking up other big deals that he's clearly trying to deflect from.

I'd quit too.

 

[johnmd20]

People keep saying that 1. he's one of the best defenders in the league and 2. that he has improved dramatically on defense in his NBA career.

I keep asking for some evidence of this. I have posted DARKO and RAPTOR charts that seem to say that neither of those propositions is true. Well, he's obviously a very good defender, but there nothing to support top-3 suggestions that get thrown around here. And I haven't yet seen stats that support this supposedly large growth.

Please tell me where I'm wrong.

You're not wrong and I am laughing at people bending over backwards to defend Simmons. Like the last 7 months didn't actually happen. We are talking about a guy on a FOUR year deal. Who famously flamed out when it mattered most and then had the gall to say he was frustrated with the team and wanted out. Like he's Lebron.

He's great in February. But he's a liability when it counts. And it's clear his teammates don't want him around.

 

[Cellar-Door]

I doubt that's the hold-up. Morey is trying to extract the most trade value while putting a few extra dollars in his owners pocket (probably his own down the road)

Yeah, the idea that Simmons doesn't fit on many rosters is really flawed. Maybe there aren't that many teams who can swing a trade AND have the assets Morey wants, but just on skillset Simmons would be a great fit in at least the following:
BKN, BOS, CHA, DET, WAS, NYK, TOR (if SIakam is outgoing), POR, MIN, OKC, LAC, GS (particularly if they move Draymond), DAL, SAC, HOU. That's a lot of teams. And most of the teams I left out it's because they already have a star who isn't a shooter and built around that.

I mean, I don't know--millions of folks have missed flights for lots of reasons. Showing up to work and deliberately showing up your boss in front of everyone is not really something many people do.

Showing up and giving minimal effort is something a whole lot of people do, all the time.

 

[johnmd20]

What Doc did would be the equivalent of your boss going to the largest conference in your industry, getting up on stage and telling everyone there that you suck and you are the reason your company lost that big deal despite the fact that he was in charge of the deal and has a long track record of fucking up other big deals that he's clearly trying to deflect from.

I'd quit too.

Some people get motivated to get better when they famously fail. Simmons just quits.

 

[DJnVa]

Showing up and giving minimal effort is something a whole lot of people do, all the time.

I see a vast difference between giving minimal effort at work and being in say, a meeting, and your boss tells you to do something and you just say "No".

YMMV.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

You're not wrong and I am laughing at people bending over backwards to defend Simmons. Like the last 7 months didn't actually happen. We are talking about a guy on a FOUR year deal. Who famously flamed out when it mattered most and then had the gall to say he was frustrated with the team and wanted out. Like he's Lebron.

He's great in February. But he's a liability when it counts. And it's clear his teammates don't want him around.

Teammates don't want him. Coach doesn't want him.

Why hasn't Philly traded him yet? Smart organization there.

I don't get you. So should Philly trade him or not?

Or do you just want to repeat yourself over and over about how how everyone is bending over backwards even though no one is? Do you have anything else to add?

 

[Cellar-Door]

I see a vast difference between giving minimal effort at work and being in say, a meeting, and your boss tells you to do something and you just say "No".

YMMV.

Sure, but at most jobs if you want to leave you can just quit and go to another company. The NBA isn't a normal job, it's a monopolistic enterprise that controls labor in ways a normal company can't, and as such the degrees of behavior are different. In a normal job people do enough to not get fired if they want to be there, quit if they don't. In the NBA if you don't want to be there your incentive is to force your way out.

 

[DJnVa]

But literally no one has missed a team flight. Not "millions of folks."

No one has missed a team flight til Marcus Smart did?

Anyway, it probably shouldn't be a competition. And the way Simmons was treated at the end of last season sucked.

 

[benhogan]

He's great in February. But he's a liability when it counts. And it's clear his teammates don't want him around.

His teammates wanted to fly out to LA and convince him to stay.

https://www.crossingbroad.com/2021/09/sixers-players-reportedly-wanted-to-fly-out-to-la-to-see-ben-simmons-but-he-apparently-told-them-not-to-come.html

 

[Cesar Crespo]

No one has missed a team flight til Marcus Smart did?

Anyway, it probably shouldn't be a competition. And the way Simmons was treated at the end of last season sucked.

That's what was reported.

 

[johnmd20]

His teammates wanted to fly out to LA and convince him to stay.

https://www.crossingbroad.com/2021/09/sixers-players-reportedly-wanted-to-fly-out-to-la-to-see-ben-simmons-but-he-apparently-told-them-not-to-come.html

That was a month ago. Things have been slightly altered since then.

 

[Cellar-Door]

His teammates wanted to fly out to LA and convince him to stay.

https://www.crossingbroad.com/2021/09/sixers-players-reportedly-wanted-to-fly-out-to-la-to-see-ben-simmons-but-he-apparently-told-them-not-to-come.html

Yeah, I don't get the "his teammates hate him" other than maybe Embiid, but even that is probably just Embiid reveling in attention and drama, it's what he does.

 

[johnmd20]

Teammates don't want him. Coach doesn't want him.

Why hasn't Philly traded him yet? Smart organization there.

I don't get you. So should Philly trade him or not?

Or do you just want to repeat yourself over and over about how how everyone is bending over backwards even though no one is? Do you have anything else to add?

What are you adding here, other than a limp defense of an overrated player on a huge contract who refuses to try in the most important games?

 

[Cesar Crespo]

What are you adding here, other than a limp defense of an overrated player on a huge contract who refuses to try in the most important games?

I'm not defending him. You are placing all the blame on him and arguing against something no one here is doing. It's old.

Show us all these people bending over backwards to blame everyone but Simmons. Show me anyone on here saying Simmons is blame free.

Build up more straw men to knock down.

 

[benhogan]

That was a month ago. Things have been slightly altered since then.

Yes they all hate him now... this is like an episode of Gilmore Girls and I'm ALL IN on the 76ers fail and this narrative.

 

[Sille Skrub]

Time Lord says, "Hello, I have also missed a flight."

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Yes they all hate him now... this is like an episode of Gilmore Girls and I'm ALL IN on the 76ers fail and this narrative.

Simmons clearly ran over his dog. He's blinded.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Time Lord says, "Hello, I have also missed a flight."

That wasn't a team flight. Congrats. TEAM flight. TEAM.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Holding him hostage? Asking a guy with 4 years left on his deal to show up and be a professional, while you look for a deal that makes sense for both sides is now unconscionable? The beginning of camp is the worst possible time to trade anyone.

If you think Simmons' is following a script written by Rich Paul here, then you think Paul is an idiot. The outright refusal to participate in a drill and the phone in the pocket are stupid tactical mistakes. There are far more effective, and less damaging ways, to put pressure on Philly to get a deal done sooner rather than later.

I agree the beginning of camp is the worst time to trade him which is where Morey failed. Was there anyone who really expected Simmons to be there after what Embiid and Doc publicly did to him and after the trade demand?

 

[DJnVa]

That's what was reported.

You mean no member of the Celtics had missed a team flight? Or no athlete ever, because I know that's not the case.

 

[johnmd20]

I'm not defending him. You are placing all the blame on him and arguing against something no one here is doing. It's old.

Show us all these people bending over backwards to blame everyone but Simmons. Show me anyone on here saying Simmons is blame free.

Build up more straw men to knock down.

For this situation, I do blame him.

Prove me wrong. Unless Doc specifically instructed Simmons to disappear in the playoffs and never shoot, and pass up easy dunks, I would say this is a Simmons problem. He's an overrated baby who thinks he's Lebron and instead he's a guy who has no grit, quits, and refuses to try.

When ARod kept failing in the playoffs, did people blame the manager? Some people just can't handle the big moment. For Simmons' entire career, he's never shone during a big moment.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

You mean no member of the Celtics had missed a team flight? Or no athlete ever, because I know that's not the case.

It rarely happens. Show me all the Celtics players who have missed team flights over the years. Big Baby almost did, but he didn't.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

I mean, I don't know--millions of folks have missed flights for lots of reasons. Showing up to work and deliberately showing up your boss in front of everyone is not really something many people do.

The only thing missing was Ben wearing a shirt that said, “Payback sucks bitch!”

 

[Cesar Crespo]

For this situation, I do blame him.

Prove me wrong. Unless Doc specifically instructed Simmons to disappear in the playoffs and never shoot, and pass up easy dunks, I would say this is a Simmons problem. He's an overrated baby who thinks he's Lebron and instead he's a guy who has no grit, quits, and refuses to try.

When ARod kept failing in the playoffs, did people blame the manager? Some people just can't handle the big moment. For Simmons' entire career, he's never shone during a big moment.

What is the situation? If you want to blame him for his on court play, fine. This off court mess is hardly all his fault though.

edit: I mean, obviously all the on court stuff is his fault.

 

[Devizier]

It's weird that people are trying to parse out blame here. I look at this like a car accident between two uninsured drivers.

 

[ManicCompression]

If Rob Williams can play a full healthy season as a top 3 DPOY, Brad got him on steal of a contract, he'd be worth a MAX contract. Yet he still wouldn't be as good as Ben Simmons.

Clint Capela was pretty F'ing good on defense last year, should've been in the DPOY conversation, and he just signed an extension for $23 million a year. Rob Williams would not be worth a max if his defense was at that level and his offense stayed static.

Again, there's no evidence Ben Simmons can anchor a defense at C for extended periods of time. He swallows up guys on the perimeter because of his size and athleticism - that's his strength. If you want to him to be your interior defensive presence, that's a whole new ballgame and it requires different skills that he may or may not have. You're taking him from a thing we know he's great at and assuming he'll be great at this other thing that isn't quite the same.

Generally, I think we really overrate individual D, especially on the perimeter. It can only affect the game so much just by nature of there being 9 other players on the floor.

And BTW, I'm clearly not just talking about POINTZ. I'm talking about his fit on a basketball team and if it propels winning. I think he'd put up amazing stats on a 38 win team that has no other stars. He's just tough to fit in on winning teams with other ball-dominant players.

 

[Kliq]

Half this board comes across like they are working for Klutch.

 

[EvilEmpire]

It's weird that people are trying to parse out blame here. I look at this like a car accident between two uninsured drivers.

Yeah, pretty much. I see it 75% Simmons, 25% Doc/Morey/Embiid. I don't think anyone has tried to make the case that any of them are blame free.


Edit: I get the impression that Doc in particular isn't very well liked around here.

 

[bankshot1]

I like Doc, he seems to be a reasoned, understanding mature voice that the athletes he's responsible for respect and listen to. BUT in addition to X and Os and drawing up plays, a big part of his job is to manage fragile egos of some very entitled and demanding human beings, so that they play their best, and make him look good and enable him to draw a huge salary.

Simmons owns his own fears and phobias and behavior, but so does Doc. And IMO in the shadows of a tough G7 loss, in his role of being an asset manager and getting the most yield from the assets he's managing, he fucked up royally with his handling of Simmons. He owns a lot of this and it seems from a distance he wants to shift a lot of blame to the asset and not accept the mistakes of the asset manager.

If I was Morey I would be pissed at Doc, but his best out is to get what he can from a very distressed asset that appears to be getting cheaper by the day.

 

[Kliq]

Simmons is the one who is refusing to play. Simmons is the one who hasn't improved (offensively) since he first came into the league. Simmons is the one afraid to shoot. Simmons is the one scared in the playoffs. Simmons is the one with the distinct playing style that makes it hard to build around him. Simmons is the one who has four-years left on his deal and is demanding a trade. Doc and Embiid said some things they shouldn't have said, but this is almost all on Simmons because he is the guy with all of these issues. Embiid is the one who has grown his game to try and accompany Simmons, stretching out to the three point line, and Doc was the one going to Simmons with all of these ideas on how to get him more space to work his unique and limited playing style, and Simmons has said pass.

I can't believe this thread has almost 1,000 posts. The sheer cognitive dissonance that is on display to make this seem like Simmons is hardly at fault and it's all on Morey/Doc/Embiid for not bending over even further backwards for Simmons is insane.

 

[DJnVa]

It rarely happens. Show me all the Celtics players who have missed team flights over the years. Big Baby almost did, but he didn't.

Okay...Celtics. No idea. But i know athletes have missed flights.

Anyway, I don't want this to morph into a defense of Smart. It's the internet, people can have different opinions. Let's keep this thread to laughing at the Sixers.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

If I was Morey I would be pissed at Doc, but his best out is to get what he can from a very distressed asset that appears to be getting cheaper by the day.

Morey doesn’t understand human psychology enough to realize that he should be pissed at Doc (and Embiid) for painting him in a corner. Of course, it’s on him that he can’t navigate it from here coming on top of his prior examples.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Simmons is the one who is refusing to play. Simmons is the one who hasn't improved (offensively) since he first came into the league. Simmons is the one afraid to shoot. Simmons is the one scared in the playoffs. Simmons is the one with the distinct playing style that makes it hard to build around him. Simmons is the one who has four-years left on his deal and is demanding a trade. Doc and Embiid said some things they shouldn't have said, but this is almost all on Simmons because he is the guy with all of these issues. Embiid is the one who has grown his game to try and accompany Simmons, stretching out to the three point line, and Doc was the one going to Simmons with all of these ideas on how to get him more space to work his unique and limited playing style, and Simmons has said pass.

I can't believe this thread has almost 900 posts. The sheer cognitive dissonance that is on display to make this seem like Simmons is hardly at fault and it's all on Morey/Doc/Embiid for not bending over even further backwards for Simmons is insane.

Or you just picked a side and are reading what you want to read. No one is doing what you claim.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Simmons is the one who is refusing to play. Simmons is the one who hasn't improved (offensively) since he first came into the league. Simmons is the one afraid to shoot. Simmons is the one scared in the playoffs. Simmons is the one with the distinct playing style that makes it hard to build around him. Simmons is the one who has four-years left on his deal and is demanding a trade. Doc and Embiid said some things they shouldn't have said, but this is almost all on Simmons because he is the guy with all of these issues. Embiid is the one who has grown his game to try and accompany Simmons, stretching out to the three point line, and Doc was the one going to Simmons with all of these ideas on how to get him more space to work his unique and limited playing style, and Simmons has said pass.

I can't believe this thread has almost 900 posts. The sheer cognitive dissonance that is on display to make this seem like Simmons is hardly at fault and it's all on Morey/Doc/Embiid for not bending over even further backwards for Simmons is insane.

SImmons bears a lot of blame, he's a limited offensive player, and he's acting out now that he didn't get traded. I agree with that, I don't think anyone thinks he's at all blameless, just that they understand why he wants out, and that given how the NBA works, his best way to get traded is to be an asshole.

However on the bolded... Doc allegedly came up with all these ideas suddenly after Simmons refused to report and demanded a trade, he had Simmons a full year, Simmons allegedly asked why they didn't do more of that and was ignored. I wouldn't have any faith in Doc actually doing that in season either, especially since I'm sure Simmons talks to other stars around the league, including PG-13 and Kawhi who were very unhappy with Doc's coaching. This is like a guy whose wife files for divorce saying.. but after she filed I sent her flowers, why wouldn't she come back. Any action by Doc was months after Simmons had moved on.

 

[Jimbodandy]

It's weird that people are trying to parse out blame here. I look at this like a car accident between two uninsured drivers.

Word.

The Philly front office (especially Morey) fucked this. So did Klutch (seriously? Tyrese fucking Maxey wants out too?). Also Klutch trying to force a trade for a guy with big years left. And Embiid and Doc's public shaming after that game is frankly the worst shit among big piles of shit here.

Simmons' mistake here is really garden variety insubordination. And given the org scapegoating him in June, who can blame him for the attitude. Well maybe some of you can, but I can't. He's 25 and his legendary coach blamed him for the team's playoff failure, a guy who should know better.

I can think all that shit and still be frustrated at Ben for resting on his laurels for 4 years and not getting any better. I mean, I'm sure that he stays in shape and all that, but he hasn't added anything to his game. He's asking to be treated like an alpha dog (who demands trades with 4 years left on their deal), but he doesn't work like one.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

For this situation, I do blame him.

Prove me wrong. Unless Doc specifically instructed Simmons to disappear in the playoffs and never shoot, and pass up easy dunks, I would say this is a Simmons problem. He's an overrated baby who thinks he's Lebron and instead he's a guy who has no grit, quits, and refuses to try.

When ARod kept failing in the playoffs, did people blame the manager? Some people just can't handle the big moment. For Simmons' entire career, he's never shone during a big moment.

Curious honestly. Do you think Simmons should just suck it up and play for PHI - no matter who is to blame?

I think some of the issue is that some posters are trying to apportion blame and some just analysing the decisions over the last couple of months.

I doubt Ben is going to play for PHI in any effective way. If that is true, I don't think PHI is handling this correctly but what do I know? Maybe Mirey is sick of everything and is just taking a principled stand.

 

[JCizzle]

Because it's not 1 series, it's every playoff exit they've had. This conversation has been happening ever since him and Embiid teamed up because while Embiid has turned into an MVP level player, Simmons hasn't really improved. People aren't saying he's terrible at basketball but that his limitations are debilitating and he's difficult to build around. You have admitted that much. When only two teams can feasibly handle his idiosyncracies, that is not a super valuable player.

We can't forget his all time performance against our own Celtics.

 

[johnmd20]

Curious honestly. Do you think Simmons should just suck it up and play for PHI - no matter who is to blame?

I think some of the issue is that some posters are trying to apportion blame and some just analysing the decisions over the last couple of months.

I doubt Ben is going to play for PHI in any effective way. If that is true, I don't think PHI is handling this correctly but what do I know? Maybe Mirey is sick of everything and is just taking a principled stand.

I think he should have realized how poor he was in the playoffs and dedicated himself to improving in those areas to help his team. The team he's contracted to play for for the next four years. The contact he actually signed to earn 34 million dollars a year.

I just think asking for a trade with 4 years left on a deal he signed months after he famously flamed out in the playoffs is appalling. Lol Boo Hoo, Doc said some words. Prove him wrong, baby. Nope, he's just going to quit.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

I think he should have realized how poor he was in the playoffs and dedicated himself to improving in those areas to help his team. The team he's contracted to play for for the next four years. The contact he actually signed to earn 34 million dollars a year.

I just think asking for a trade with 4 years left on a deal he signed months after he famously flamed out in the playoffs is appalling. Lol Boo Hoo, Doc said some words. Prove him wrong, baby. Nope, he's just going to quit.

He signed that deal in 2019 but ok. Months after? Don't let facts get in the way of your narrative though.

edit: Never mind. Read it differently than intended.

 

[johnmd20]

Don't let facts get in the way of your narrative though.

This is so completely unwarranted.

I don't have a narrative, I am reacting to the things that have actually happened. Unless you're suggesting I am making up the fact that Simmons took a total of 0 shots in the 4th quarter of 4 straight playoff games. And then held out on a 4 year contract because his feelings were hurt because his coach was a big fat meanie head.

 

[NoXInNixon]

Kyrie for Simmons, straight up. Who says no?

Simmons fits perfectly in Brooklyn. There are already two elite scorers, so his main weakness is less important.

And Kyrie can function well with Embiid, I think.

 

[djbayko]

I think he should have realized how poor he was in the playoffs and dedicated himself to improving in those areas to help his team. The team he's contracted to play for for the next four years. The contact he actually signed to earn 34 million dollars a year.

I just think asking for a trade with 4 years left on a deal he signed months after he famously flamed out in the playoffs is appalling. Lol Boo Hoo, Doc said some words. Prove him wrong, baby. Nope, he's just going to quit.

Who knows - maybe Ben does want to prove him wrong. Regardless, Philly is not the right environment for him now. Can you imagine going to work somewhere when your boss doesn't even want you there? It's very clear that Doc only started to change his tune once Morey informed him that he was stuck with Ben for the time being and better make it work somehow so they can drive up his trade value. No one is saying that Ben doesn't have problems or is blameless. It's just that the 76ers really couldn't have handled the aftermath more poorly.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

This is so completely unwarranted.

I don't have a narrative, I am reacting to the things that have actually happened. Unless you're suggesting I am making up the fact that Simmons took a total of 0 shots in the 4th quarter of 4 straight playoff games. And then held out on a 4 year contract because his feelings were hurt because his coach was a big fat meanie head.

No, I read it as you saying he signed his contract 2 months after the playoffs happened, which would 100% be a narrative and false. That's not what you meant though.