Bard DFA

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Sprowl

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Green Monster said:
Not sure who gets the credit (Cherington, Valentine, Luchinno, ??) but the idea of moving Bard to the starting rotation is now officially a total disaster.  Very sad. He was one of the top set-up guys in the game.
Starting Bard was almost everybody's idea but Valentine's. He acquiesced, although he was desperate for a closer. There were a few Cassandras on this board, but I wasn't one of them - I thought he'd make a fine #2 starter. Instead, it took his pitching motion, already unstable in 2011, straight to hell. He didn't have the build or the strength to throw 100 pitches a game, limiting the number of times he could throw the slider, his best pitch, and putting him into high-stress, disastrous game situations far too early. It's not just sad, it's a tragedy.
 
Alas, poor Daniel! We knew him, SoSHers; a pitcher of infinite speed, of most excellent velocity; he hath borne us on his back a thousand times; and now, how irrevocable in assignment it is! My gorge rises at it. Here hung those sliders at which batters once flailed. Where be your sinkers now? Your easy delivery? Your flashes of dominance, that were wont to set the game thread on a roar?
 
 

threecy

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I don't think it's quite valid to imply that Bard's change to a starter was all the management's doing.  I know I was concerned at the time that Blass Disease might pop up, but I believe Bard himself was interested in something new.  Weren't there mentions in 2011 that he wanted to become either a closer (which he wasn't doing too well as if I recall correctly) or a starter, so that he could get a bigger paycheck than that of a middle reliever?
 

dcmissle

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This isn't Billy Martin destroying four young starters in Oakland by riding them like mules.  But it's not good either.
 

cannonball 1729

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Red(s)HawksFan said:
 
I don't think DFA is revocable. They can't un-designate him once he's been designated.  If someone claims him when he is on waivers, he's gone.  If he clears, the team can outright him to a minor league roster (without the player's consent if he has less than 5 years of service time and hasn't been outrighted before).  From what Farrell told reporters today, it sounds like outrighting him is their ideal plan...
 
@ScottLauber: "Farrell on decision to DFA Daniel Bard to open 40-man spot: "Not an easy one." Said he hopes #RedSox will be able to retain Bard"
 
 
 
I'm wondering how likely that plan actually is.  If I'm the Cubs or the Marlins or another terrible team that has room on the roster, I pick up Bard and then try to outright him immediately (knowing that the Sox have no room on the roster to take him back) unless he's absolutely beyond all hope.
 

nattysez

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When the 2011 season ended, Bard spoke with his agent about a possible role change in his career. In turn, the agent spoke with Red Sox general manager Ben Cherington about it. At the time, the future status of Papelbon was still unknown.
Eventually Bard and Cherington exchanged thoughts and ideas about the pitcher's career, but it wasn't until the Red Sox hired Bobby Valentine as the club's new manager that Bard's new role was set in stone.
Valentine and Bard spoke on the phone, and during that conversation the manager simply asked the 26-year-old what he wanted to do.
"I told him, 'I want to start or close and I think I can do either one well. It's whatever you guys think will help the team.' It turns out they think starting is the way to go."
 
http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/7599981/boston-red-sox-pitcher-daniel-bard-transitions-setup-man-starter
 
 
So, based on this article, you can blame everyone -- Bard, his agent, Cherington, and Valentine -- but I think it's ultimately the GM's job to say "You're not a starter, Daniel -- become a closer and you'll still make plenty of money."  That said, given how things went in September 2011, there's no guarantee Bard would've kept it together if he'd remained a late-inning guy.  
 

OilCanShotTupac

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dcmissle said:
This isn't Billy Martin destroying four young starters in Oakland by riding them like mules.  But it's not good either.
 
Can you say more?  You seem to be implying that Sox management ruined Bard, but I can't tell if you're also implying that this is an organizational pattern, ie repeated with more guys than just Bard..
 
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you - I am just not clear in what you're saying.
 
I'm not sure how to apportion liability in the matter of In re Bard myself.  There's no guarantee that he would have remained effective in his role - as noted upthread, he had already started to go south.  I have a vague displeasure with the organization for not "fixing" him, but I still am not sure if his problem was mental, physical (maybe, as per Sprowl, his body wasn't strong enough to handle the strain of pitching) or some combination.  I can't really target blame if I still can't say WTF happened to begin with.
 

threecy

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If you look at his splits, I think it's interesting to see that the only catcher Bard pitched to truly elite levels to was Jason Varitek (1.79 ERA/78 IP).  3.16 ERA/51.1 IP when pitching to VMart and 4.83 ERA/78.1 IP to Salty.
 

mauidano

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From all accounts, just a really good, nice guy.  The kind of kid you would hope your daughter would marry.  Sports and baseball in particular can be cold, cruel and heartbreaking at times.  This is one of them.  Really best wishes to Daniel.  Hope he finds "it" whatever he lost.  Most importantly, happiness to you kid.
 

Harry Hooper

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Sprowl said:
Starting Bard was almost everybody's idea but Valentine's. He acquiesced, although he was desperate for a closer. There were a few Cassandras on this board, but I wasn't one of them - I thought he'd make a fine #2 starter. Instead, it took his pitching motion, already unstable in 2011, straight to hell. He didn't have the build or the strength to throw 100 pitches a game, limiting the number of times he could throw the slider, his best pitch, and putting him into high-stress, disastrous game situations far too early. It's not just sad, it's a tragedy.
 
Alas, poor Daniel! We knew him, SoSHers; a pitcher of infinite speed, of most excellent velocity; he hath borne us on his back a thousand times; and now, how irrevocable in assignment it is! My gorge rises at it. Here hung those sliders at which batters once flailed. Where be your sinkers now? Your easy delivery? Your flashes of dominance, that were wont to set the game thread on a roar?
 
 
 
That is the Bard bodkin.
 
 
Bard's problems likely started before the Valentine circus came to town, but the BobbyV/pitching coach mishegas last year likely was not helpful..
 

The Gray Eagle

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mabrowndog said:
 
If anyone claims him off waivers and keeps him on the 40-man over the winter, it won't be a "cheap flyer." He'll be 3rd-year arb eligible, and even the shittiest of players get raises so he'd be due to make around $2 million.
That's exactly why I said "if they somehow could." Which they can't if they claim him, but when he is unemployed this offseason, someone will sign him to a minor league deal and try to fix him.
 

nattysez

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soxhop411 said:
would the Cubs put a claim in on Bard?
 
For the reasons stated above, I can't imagine any team is going to claim him.  He'll become a FA and teams will try to woo him with a ml deal.  The Cubs are a natural landing place given their FO's history with Bard (and fixing Bard the first time) and their desperate need for more bullpen arms.  I was thinking that Bard should seek out whoever fixed Andrew Miller, but this article credits Valentine and McClure with doing that, and they're both out of baseball right now, as far as I can tell. 
 

edoug

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brandonchristensen said:
I was about to ask for that to be posted.

Thanks for the happy memories, Dan.
How did Martinez even get a glove on it?
 

BCsMightyJoeYoung

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nattysez said:
For the reasons stated above, I can't imagine any team is going to claim him.  He'll become a FA and teams will try to woo him with a ml deal.  The Cubs are a natural landing place given their FO's history with Bard (and fixing Bard the first time) and their desperate need for more bullpen arms.  I was thinking that Bard should seek out whoever fixed Andrew Miller, but this article credits Valentine and McClure with doing that, and they're both out of baseball right now, as far as I can tell.
Most posters seem to assume that Bard is gone. But he's only gone if he's claimed - otherwise he's simply re-assigned. I haven't seen any indication that the Sox are doing this to get rid of him - just to free a 40 man spot.
 

joe dokes

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I understand it all went to shit, but if you exlcude the last dance in Toronto, he wasn't pitching like "this is never gonna work," as opposed to "this is still a work in progress," with the occasional games like the ones against Chicago and Cleveland. That's what I thought at the time, anyway. In hindsight, obviously, it did go to shit. But given the flashes of sucess, combined with his early-career failures (and his late 2011 performance), I'm not joining the chorus of "starting ruined him."  I see him more like the pitching version of Charly in Flowers for Algernon.  There was a fair chance it was going to happen anyway.
 

nattysez

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Bowlerman9

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HriniakPosterChild said:
 
[That link seems broken]
 
In dollars and cents, how expensive will it be for the Sox to keep him next year (assuming he does clear)?
 
He made $1.86M this year, so probably around $1.5 to $1.6M.
 

Plympton91

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Does he get to be arb eligible even if he's not on the 40 man roster? Can he declare himself a minor league free agent if they don't re-add him? If the answer to either question is yes, then there's little benefit to someone claiming him and paying the rest of his 2013 salary. I can't imagine he's worth anything more than a straight minor league contract, with maybe a spring training invite. But, being in major league camp might not be the best way to get fixed.
 

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I think that Bard does not have the service time to refuse the assignment.  So if he does clear waivers he can be outrighted to AAA.  From what I understand, players who can refuse such assignment are the ones that become FA's if they exercise that right.
 
Given his salary and his status, he would be an expensive minor league/non 40 man roster pitcher, but he'd still "belong" to the Sox if he clears waivers.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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trekfan55 said:
I think that Bard does not have the service time to refuse the assignment.  So if he does clear waivers he can be outrighted to AAA.  From what I understand, players who can refuse such assignment are the ones that become FA's if they exercise that right.
 
Given his salary and his status, he would be an expensive minor league/non 40 man roster pitcher, but he'd still "belong" to the Sox if he clears waivers.
 
No service time limit on being outrighted.  Teams have the ability to do it to anyone if they have never been outrighted before.  So the only way Bard leaves the organization before the end of the season is if he's claimed on waivers (or the highly unlikely scenario of someone trading for him).
 
As for the off-season, that's a different story.  Once the MLB regular season ends Bard, as a MLB arb-eligible player, should have the option to become a free agent.  But I think he must do so within 15 days or the Red Sox will retain control.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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Here's Cafardo's (I know, I know) explanation of the Bard situation:
 
If he gets through waivers and the Red Sox take him back and outright him to the minors, he would be eligible for free agency at the end of the season because he was outrighted as a player with three-plus years of service.
 
Most players would accept the assignment and then become a free agent. If that happens, Bard could negotiate a major league or minor league deal with the Red Sox or anyone else. If he gets a major league deal, it would likely be minimal.
 
 
He doesn't mention the 15 days thing on declaration. I have no idea. 
 
I don't see a world where a major league team thinks Bard is worth $1.5m+ next year. Picking him up now and then allowing him to go through arb with your organization makes zero sense unless you've got a pitcher-whisperer who thinks he sees exactly the mechanical problem or something. 
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Probably should have linked my source on the 15 day thing (thecubreporter.com).
 
Upon re-reading it, it says the player has from the day after the season ends until October 15.  So I guess technically, Bard will have 16 days (9/30 - 10/15) to make his decision.
 

trekfan55

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So, if he clears waivers and is outrighted he becomes an FA, but then the arbitration figures "reset" and teams can offer him anything?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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trekfan55 said:
So, if he clears waivers and is outrighted he becomes an FA, but then the arbitration figures "reset" and teams can offer him anything?
 
If he becomes a free agent, arbitration is moot.  Teams can sign him for whatever the two sides feel is best.  Arbitration won't come up again for Bard until he finishes another season on some team's 40-man roster.
 

twibnotes

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Glad we're moving on here from Bard. To me this was a no-brainer. Has any player ever returned from losing the ability to throw a baseball accurately? Blass, Sax, Knoblauch, Matt Young, Wohlers, Ankiel, etc

I can't think of one who didn't fade into Bolivia .


What about Salty
 

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twibnotes said:
What about Salty
What about him? His throwing problems aren't remotely close to being grouped with those who lost their careers due to a mental block of throwing a baseball. Who was the catcher that couldn't throw the ball back to the pitcher? He's another one whose career ended due to "Steve Blass Disease."
 

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What about him? His throwing problems aren't remotely close to being grouped with those who lost their careers due to a mental block of throwing a baseball. Who was the catcher that couldn't throw the ball back to the pitcher? He's another one whose career ended due to "Steve Blass Disease."
 
Mackey Sasser?

Or Dave Engle?

Both of them had issues.
 

smastroyin

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Players losing the ability to throw back to the pitcher or throw to bases is one thing.
 
Players losing the ability to consistently throw strikes is another.  I don't think catchers getting over throwing problems really brings us any kind of information regarding Bard's chances.
 

HomeRunBaker

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joe dokes said:
 
So did Mike Ivie and (I think) Dale Murphy.
I was thinking of Sasser. Yes, Murphy had to be moved to RF full-time due to this psychological problem.
 

HomeRunBaker

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smastroyin said:
Players losing the ability to throw back to the pitcher or throw to bases is one thing.
 
Players losing the ability to consistently throw strikes is another.  I don't think catchers getting over throwing problems really brings us any kind of information regarding Bard's chances.
My point was that once the psychological problem becomes this severe that no pitcher has ever returned successfully from it. It is one thing to lose your ability to throw strikes due for mechanical reasons however it seems pretty clear that mechanics aren't Bards issue.
 

smastroyin

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I understand your point and agree with you.  I am taking issue with people turning Steve Blass disease into Steve Sax syndrome and saying the people who came back from the latter prove that you can come back from the former.  I don't recall any pitchers of note who have ever lost complete command and been able to re-gain it. 
 
It's worth noting that Steve Blass's problems--if I'm remembering correctly from Roger Angell's profile of him--appeared only when he was facing a live batter. In his bullpens he had all of his stuff. What Daniel Bard is suffering from seems to be considerably more severe.
 

nattysez

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Cubs claimed him, just a day after they DFA'd Bowden, coincidentally.  
 
Godspeed, Daniel.
 
Edit:  Despite what I said above, I'm a little surprised the Cubs are taking a flier on Bard only months after they gave Marmol away, given their similarities.  Jed and Theo must think Bard's fixable -- we'll see if they're right.  I have my doubts.
 

TomRicardo

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Remember when the Red Sox refused to give up Michael Bowden for Miguel Montero?
 

judyb

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Anyone else wonder why they didn't just trade him to the Cubs for a nickel instead of either team risking him ending up somewhere else?
 

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judyb said:
Anyone else wonder why they didn't just trade him to the Cubs for a nickel instead of either team risking him ending up somewhere else?
 
Probably because the Red Sox harbored a small hope that he'd clear waivers and they could hold on to him.
 
And frankly, I don't think they were all that worried about where he would end up.  That it was the Cubs that claimed him is poetic and not much of a surprise given who leads their front office, but I guarantee Ben and company didn't give two shits about making sure if he didn't stay in the organization, that he ended up with the Cubs.
 

radsoxfan

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judyb said:
Anyone else wonder why they didn't just trade him to the Cubs for a nickel instead of either team risking him ending up somewhere else?
Probably because the Cubs weren't willing to even give up a nickel for him.

Just because they are willing to take a flier on him doesn't mean they have high expectations or would have been that upset if someone else claimed him.
 

radsoxfan

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Red(s)HawksFan said:
Probably because the Red Sox harbored a small hope that he'd clear waivers and they could hold on to him.
 
And frankly, I don't think they were all that worried about where he would end up.  That it was the Cubs that claimed him is poetic and not much of a surprise given who leads their front office, but I guarantee Ben and company didn't give two shits about making sure if he didn't stay in the organization, that he ended up with the Cubs.
I suppose this is possible, but I think by putting him on waivers the Red Sox were admitting they were OK moving on. If the Cubs made a decent offer I think they would have taken it, I just doubt the offer was out there.

There's a difference between claiming Bard on waivers as a no-risk reclamation project and trading something of value (regardless how small) for him.
 

mauidano

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Welcome to the North Side of Chicago Mr. Bard.
 
Theo and Cubbies claim Daniel...no surprise.  Best wishes to all.
 

Plympton91

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radsoxfan said:
Probably because the Cubs weren't willing to even give up a nickel for him.

Just because they are willing to take a flier on him doesn't mean they have high expectations or would have been that upset if someone else claimed him.
 
Well, by claiming him, they're paying whatever the Red Sox owe him for September, which is probably a couple hundred grand at least.
 

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So do the Sox claim Bowden, just to complete the trade?
 
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