Arsenal 2014-2015: Ugh. Your banter stinks.

coremiller · Feb 26, 2015

ConigliarosPotential said:
So which is it: does the Europa League completely suck, or is it better now that winning it gets you into the Champions League and teams are taking it more seriously?

Oh, it still sucks. It's just not quite as entirely pointless as it used to be. But it's ridiculous to prefer it to the Champions League when the only reason to care about the Europa League is that winning it gets you into the Champions League.

mikeford · Feb 26, 2015

ConigliarosPotential said:
So which is it: does the Europa League completely suck, or is it better now that winning it gets you into the Champions League and teams are taking it more seriously?

Consider how much money you make for making the GROUP STAGE of the Champions League versus how much you make for WINNING the Europa League.

Spoiler alert: you make more for the group stage of the real competition.

blueguitar322 · Feb 26, 2015

The idea that Arsenal (or its fans) might be better off without the CL and its yearly QF exit is ludicrous, and probably the result of shell-shock, venting, game-threading, whatever you want to call it. Yesterday's loss was tough, maybe the worst of the year given expectations.

I agree with Coremiller et. al.

The Europa cup is just as many games as CL, but way less money, way less prestige, and as was said above, the only real benefit is for the winning team (who gets automatic entry into next year's CL).
Teams playing in Europa don't have any real advantage over teams playing in the CL when it comes to domestic leagues and cups, because the schedule tempo is so similar. The idea of a refreshed, focused team as a direct result of no CL is wishful thinking, especially given the particular manager and players involved.
Playing in the Europa league lowers coefficients for future CLs. E.g. Liverpool was drawn into a tough group this year. Next year the way the arrange pots will change, but the importance of coefficients won't much. Arsenal is already dropping down a tier next year, let's not hope it's worse for the following years.
Without CL money and prestige, we don't buy Ozil two years ago, or Sanchez last year. Or, if we do, it's at hugely inflated wages and fees, e.g. Falcao.
From a long-term economic perspective, not being in the CL damages the Arsenal brand. Right now that brand is perennial runners up, but that's a much better brand than being a non-factor or also-ran.

One year of missing the CL can probably be weathered. Two years is a trend. Three and you are in relative obscurity compared to the biggest clubs in Europe. Miss one year, and where's your guarantee that you'll make it the next?

Zomp · Feb 26, 2015

PedroSpecialK said:
If it were Islamophobia, Mohamed Salah would have been shoved under a train months ago.

Realistically, I think it's the appearance that he doesn't try, when really Özil is just efficient with his movement and makes up for his lack of pace with awareness and positioning - when he's on.

If he has an off match, you don't see him sprinting around the pitch putting max effort in. He also tends to show minimal outward emotion, in victory or defeat - IMO that's where the vitriol comes from.

Otherwise known as Berbaphobia

mikeford · Feb 26, 2015

Salah only cost 11m, I don't think he's analogous to Ozil and his 42.5m price tag, honestly.

Conigliaro's Potential · Feb 27, 2015

blueguitar322 said:
Teams playing in Europa don't have any real advantage over teams playing in the CL when it comes to domestic leagues and cups, because the schedule tempo is so similar. The idea of a refreshed, focused team as a direct result of no CL is wishful thinking, especially given the particular manager and players involved.

FWIW, my point was that missing out on Europe altogether could be helpful in the English league and cups - I know the Europa League sucks in this regard (although Arsenal now has a large enough squad that it should theoretically be able to cope better with Thursday football than most clubs).

Look: I get that nobody agrees with me. And yes, I'm unbelievably frustrated by the game on Tuesday, and that frustration may be clouding my judgement. But I do still think there's an untoward fear of the unknown which permeates a lot of the recent responses here. Yesterday's article by Amy Lawrence in the Guardian...

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/feb/26/arsene-wenger-arsenal-self-destruction-champions-league-monaco

...and many of the comments underneath it underscore Wenger's current failings pretty strongly, and I think it's at least *possible* that:

a) failing to finish in the top four this season could encourage Wenger to resign,
b) the board might stumble into hiring a good replacement,
c) a season out of the Champions League might shake free some of the cobwebs currently infesting the club (and also be rather fun as a fan), and
d) Arsenal might ultimately benefit from what at present looks like a disaster scenario.

Is any of this likely? Probably not, starting with the first point - I find it hard to believe Arsenal won't finish in the top four this season. But there is life outside the Champions League, and I'd like to believe Arsenal may again show some tactical nous and mental toughness in a high-stakes match again in my lifetime. If that isn't going to happen until Wenger is no longer Arsenal's manager (which isn't a certainty but looks increasingly likely), I'm at least willing to entertain the possibility of scenarios which could speed that process along.

Conigliaro's Potential · Feb 27, 2015

Incidentally, as an avid golfer with a bit of a temper, I've come to realize that my temper exhibits itself the worst when I make a bad swing just after I've made one or two good swings and feel like I've figured out what I'm supposed to be doing. It's not the bad swing itself that sets me off - it's the expectation I have that the swing should have been better than it was. That's pretty much what I feel with Arsenal at the moment: the Man City win was the "good swing" which made it seem like Arsenal, and Wenger in particular, had figured out how to approach important games against top teams. But alas, it now appears as though Arsenal didn't really learn anything at all - maybe Man City without Yaya was just poor enough to make Arsenal look good. And the Monaco game was the "bad swing" which has now set me (and many other Gooners) off.

JimBoSox9 · Feb 27, 2015

That's one of the fairest defenses of a nonsense position I've read in a long while.

Spacemans Bong · Feb 27, 2015

Against Man City Arsenal successfully implemented something they've been doing since Steve Bould was coach, which is get a bit tighter at the back. Monaco wasn't them not learning, but more them panicking after letting in an early goal.

They've got a good shot at 3rd, 2nd not being out of the question, and they've got a decent shot at an FA Cup. Since both of those goals probably involve wins against big clubs I am happy if they achieve them.

Wenger's going to have a big pot of cash again in the summer and will hopefully raid Madrid/Barca/Bayern as he's done so well over the years. I'm still seething about the loss to Monaco but this isn't really the tipping point for me.

Conigliaro's Potential · Feb 27, 2015

sachmoney said:
What was the Tottenham game?

Are you calling Tottenham a "top team"? Arsenal defeats Tottenham regularly (and loses to them occasionally), whereas Man City and Monaco represented different hurdles Arsenal hadn't climbed in a while. Defeating the reigning Premiership champions away from home felt like something big which might help Arsenal figure out how to move past the CL Round of 16. That now appears to be wrong.

Of course, now Arsenal will probably do something silly like win 3-0 at the Stade Louis II.

mikeford · Feb 27, 2015

Oh if you don't think that second leg is ending 2-0 you haven't watched enough Arsenal.

SidelineCameras · Feb 27, 2015

mikeford said:
Oh if you don't think that second leg is ending 2-0 you haven't watched enough Arsenal.

Seriously. The worst part of that second-leg tease against Bayern two years ago was that they scored their first goal in about 0.000038 seconds and gave out a sense of false hope for 90+ minutes.

Zososoxfan · Feb 27, 2015

I finally watched the Monaco game last night. It was an odd game because I thought Arsenal played very well in the opening 20-30 minutes. The first goal was a flukey deflection and although I usually give the keeper a pass on those types of goals, it sure looked like Ospina could've done better. Giroud really blew it for the Gunners. There were chances out there to be had and Arsenal created enough of them that they should've put in goals earlier than they did. Sanchez and Cazorla played great games. I have no idea what Mertesacker was thinking on the 2nd goal, but Kos is not to blame on that play. Welbeck was not good. The 3rd goal was tough to watch because again, Ospina had a chance (to be fair, he also made a few great saves in this match), but also because it was the 2nd time this game where an avoidable turnover in the attacking 3rd led to a break and Arsenal's defense got pulled apart.

mikeford · Feb 27, 2015

Pretty sure Mertesacker can take blame for all three goals.

I hope he gets benched against Everton. Give Gabriel a shot, he can't possibly play worse.

DLew On Roids · Feb 27, 2015

On Guardian Football Weekly, someone called the third Monaco goal "the worst Chamberlain giveaway since the Sudetenland."

Nick Kaufman · Feb 27, 2015

Doesn't correspond to the mood of this thread, but what the hell.

Nick Kaufman · Feb 27, 2015

No, I just rarely detect any bullishness

mikeford · Feb 27, 2015

We skipped most of the yellow and green sections this year.

blueguitar322 · Mar 1, 2015

Solid, workman-like win by Arsenal. Could have been more, though Everton missed a few chances as well.

Ospina had several very strong moments - one fast reaction save through traffic, one time saving Gabriel from an embarrassing introduction to the EPL, and another strong punch to prevent a 6-yard Lukaku header
Chamberlain adds so much with his willingness and ability to take on defenders. He also tracks back really well, though he's not much of a tackler. Sanchez-lite, their play styles really seem similar.
Two assists for Ozil, though he added next to nothing defensively.
Gabriel impressed, he's an interception machine. Made one bad mistake, but later saved Koscielny from an even worse mistake.
Bellerin had a bunch of good crosses
Giroud could have scored three, but was off target on two short-distance headers.

Away to QPR on Wednesday, need all three points there too.

JimBoSox9 · Mar 1, 2015

Props as well to Coquelin for taking a header right to an already-broken-by-Giroud nose. Him and Gabriel are starting to make me feel a little less panicky about the back six, even sans Ramsey.

mikeford · Mar 1, 2015

Gabriel was MOTM for me, even with that ugly mistake Ospina had to bail him out on

blueguitar322 · Mar 1, 2015

mikeford said:
Gabriel was MOTM for me, even with that ugly mistake Ospina had to bail him out on

He rated out as second highest on WhoScored behind Chamberlain. I still don't understand their formula, but he definitely passed the eye test too.

soxfan121 · Mar 4, 2015

Zomp said:
Otherwise known as Berbaphobia

JD Drew-itis.

Morgan's Magic Snowplow · Mar 4, 2015

#Arsenal team to play QPR: Ospina, Bellerin, Mertesacker, Gabriel, Gibbs, Coquelin, Cazorla, Rosicky, Ozil, Alexis, Giroud

I'm happy to see Gabriel in the lineup. I figured that he would be in for Mertesacker but Kos probably needs a rest. I also like seeing Rozza in there, likely as part of the three man midfield. I still think our best lineup, especially in away fixtures, is to have Ozil on the wing and a real three man midfield. Ramsey makes the bench. It would be great to see him get 20-30 minutes - probably coming in for Rozza - and then be ready to start next Monday at Old Trafford.

Morgan's Magic Snowplow · Mar 4, 2015

Good win today. We struggled for the first half hour as they came out flying and we couldn't find space or time on the ball. Once their tempo settled, however, we were pretty good at the end of the first half and then totally dominant in the second, apart from the hiccup at the very end.

Great to see Alexis get back on the scoresheet. He has looked a little slow and little off for a while now - whether due to injury, fatigue, or something else - and this would be a great time for him to find some form again.

Huge match next Monday at Old Trafford. Unless we can pull a miracle at Monaco, I think there are really only two ways for Wenger to able call this season a success - defending the FA Cup (and maintaining Top 4) or finishing second in the league with a super strong finish that pulls us within shouting distance of Chelsea. Fairly or not, finishing 4th with no cup and another R16 exit in the Champions League is going to earn him a ton of criticism.

mikeford · Mar 4, 2015

Wasn't pretty or much fun to watch but 3 points is all that matters at this point. Especially since everyone around us won today too.

CoRP · Mar 6, 2015

Mertesacker better sack up at Old Trafford.

blueguitar322 · Mar 7, 2015

Grantland article talking about the difference in playstyle and contribution between Ozil and Sanchez. The punchline:

Özil has made his career working in the places that none of our numbers and only our most observant eyes can see. He makes players better; he always has. It’s not his fault that we still haven’t figured out how to show it.

Morgan's Magic Snowplow · Mar 9, 2015

#Arsenal team v Man Utd: Szczesny, Bellerin, Mertesacker, Koscielny, Monreal, Coquelin, Cazorla, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Ozil, Alexis, Welbeck

United XI: De Gea, Valencia, Smalling, Rojo, Shaw, Blind, Herrera, Di Maria, Fellaini, Young, Rooney.

COYG.

Welbeck over Giroud is a ballsy choice by Wenger. Hopefully he's up for the return to Old Trafford. I was sort of hoping to see Ramsey and the three man midfield but either he's not fit enough to start or Wenger just wants Ozil in there.

blueguitar322 · Mar 9, 2015

Was really hoping Ramsey would be fit enough to start. He's an upgrade over Cazorla in that spot, Cazorla (this year at least) is about even with Ozil as #10, and then you have the option of playing Ozil wide instead of Chamberlain.

Spacemans Bong · Mar 9, 2015

Let's fucking cunt these cunts. United are fucking shit and we should go there, fuck them, and punch red face in his fucking mooey for good measure.

Morgan's Magic Snowplow · Mar 9, 2015

Huge to get the first goal. Great work from the Ox.

Morgan's Magic Snowplow · Mar 9, 2015

And...doh.

blueguitar322 · Mar 9, 2015

Exciting game for the neutral. Great move for the goal, but it seems like in these games United keeps hitting the long ball lottery. Fellaini is bossing Coq and just about every deep pass to the Arsenal penalty box goes to either him or Rooney.

Morgan's Magic Snowplow · Mar 9, 2015

blueguitar322 said:
Exciting game for the neutral. Great move for the goal, but it seems like in these games United keeps hitting the long ball lottery. Fellaini is bossing Coq and just about every deep pass to the Arsenal penalty box goes to either him or Rooney.

"Knockdowns to Fellaini" might be a better strategy against Arsenal than against most Premier League sides since our spine isn't that tall and physical, Mertesacker aside.

Szczesny has stood tall so far. I like that choice given the reliance of United on pumping high balls into the box, dealing with which certainly isn't Ospina's strength.

blueguitar322 · Mar 9, 2015

Chamberlain did his hamstring again.

blueguitar322 · Mar 9, 2015

Whoo Bellerin is lucky

Edit: and Wenger takes him off, it was his only move to ensure 11v11

blueguitar322 · Mar 9, 2015

Holy crap de Gea is a greek god

Morgan's Magic Snowplow · Mar 9, 2015

I can't wait until De Gea is playing in Madrid.

blueguitar322 · Mar 9, 2015

di Maria has been diving all game. Incredibly impressed with Michael Oliver's brass ones to call that in Old Trafford.

eddiew112 · Mar 9, 2015

Very glad that Oliver finally called it. That was Di Maria's 4th or 5th dive of the game.

TomRicardo · Mar 9, 2015

eddiew112 said:
Very glad that Oliver finally called it. That was Di Maria's 4th or 5th dive of the game.

To be fair, tugging the referee's shirt probably sealed the deal.

Conigliaro's Potential · Mar 9, 2015

It's been a very Arsenal-y season, but conceding an equalizer here would be one of the Arsenal-iest things they'll have done in it.

Arsenal 2014-2015: Ugh. Your banter stinks.

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