Arsenal 2014-2015: Ugh. Your banter stinks.
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It's a huge nut punch to the fans. For both teams, and I'm only having a small dig at Man U fans there.
Probably talking 1 am home at the earliest for fans living in London. When you could have had Blackpool-Liverpool or West Brom-Villa (which you could freaking walk in an hour), it's a dick move.
Probably talking 1 am home at the earliest for fans living in London. When you could have had Blackpool-Liverpool or West Brom-Villa (which you could freaking walk in an hour), it's a dick move.
A pure money grab for tv ratings and a giant middle finger to match going fans, especially the traveling away fans.
Not to mention us poor bastards across the ocean
Not to mention us poor bastards across the ocean
Anyone else worried that we have two young goalkeepers with great promise, but neither looks solid when given the opportunity to start? Ospina made a few good saves but made a slew of almost-fatal decisions today.
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Ozil has been simply fantastic since coming back. There really is nobody better pulling the strings on the counter and in situations where the defense is unsettled and scrambling to recover.
Strange decision by Wenger - maybe fitness concerns, maybe looking ahead to Monaco - to play Chambers and Monreal outside against Palace's pacey attackers. I thought a lot of our inability to control the match stemmed from being scared shitless of our back line being burned for pace. Palace played their asses off in front of their great fans and deserved a point from the game but credit to our squad as well for grinding out a tough win, even if they got some luck in the end.
Since the horrific Stoke match that we lost 3-2 last fall, Arsenal are 12-1-2 in all competitions.
Ozil has been simply fantastic since coming back. There really is nobody better pulling the strings on the counter and in situations where the defense is unsettled and scrambling to recover.
Strange decision by Wenger - maybe fitness concerns, maybe looking ahead to Monaco - to play Chambers and Monreal outside against Palace's pacey attackers. I thought a lot of our inability to control the match stemmed from being scared shitless of our back line being burned for pace. Palace played their asses off in front of their great fans and deserved a point from the game but credit to our squad as well for grinding out a tough win, even if they got some luck in the end.
Since the horrific Stoke match that we lost 3-2 last fall, Arsenal are 12-1-2 in all competitions.
My understanding is that Bellerin failed a fitness test yesterday, which at least explains Chambers on the right.
Great weekend of results for Arsenal obviously. Now on to Wednesday...
Monaco is a great draw at this stage of the competition but I think this tie will be heart-in-your-throat tight. Over 31 combined Ligue 1 and UCL matches this season they've scored 30 and conceded 20. Fuck, in their six UCL games alone they conceded only once. I haven't watched them play but it seems like after selling/loaning Falcao and James they just decided to go all-in on a defensive style, frustrating you defensively and praying for a moment of Berbatov magic.
Obviously we want to smash them on Wednesday but I hope Wenger's tactics are a little cagey. We don't want to go to Monaco in the return leg needing to chase the game, even at 1-1.
Monaco is a great draw at this stage of the competition but I think this tie will be heart-in-your-throat tight. Over 31 combined Ligue 1 and UCL matches this season they've scored 30 and conceded 20. Fuck, in their six UCL games alone they conceded only once. I haven't watched them play but it seems like after selling/loaning Falcao and James they just decided to go all-in on a defensive style, frustrating you defensively and praying for a moment of Berbatov magic.
Obviously we want to smash them on Wednesday but I hope Wenger's tactics are a little cagey. We don't want to go to Monaco in the return leg needing to chase the game, even at 1-1.
Monaco is going to be limping into this match a bit by the looks of it. DM Jeremy Toulalan is suspended, CB Ricardo Carvalho (yes that one) seems very likely to miss out with an injury, and they have a couple other key players (Ferreira-Carrasco and Kurzawa) that might need to pass game time fitness tests. Jardim is being cagey with the injury information but this won't be their strongest team for sure.
Truly embarrassing performance. Everyone should hang their head in shame. I've never been a #WengerOut person, but in the offseason, they need to make a change. There is no way this is going to get any better until wholesale changes are made , following Wenger out the door Ozil,BFG,Giroud.
Nightmare match.
Wenger really botched the tactics in the second half. Its a two legged tie, you can't just push everybody up and leave only the center backs to deal with counters, especially when one of them is as slow as Mertesacker and especially if you're going to be playing Ox at DM.
Giroud was just amazingly shit. He has had a fantastic season so far and that shouldn't get lost but this match just demonstrates (again) that he's ideally a squad player for a club with big ambitions, not a starting CF.
Sadly, I think 2-1 down was tough but not impossible but 3-1 down is pretty close to a death sentence. We'll need a million things to break right.
Wenger really botched the tactics in the second half. Its a two legged tie, you can't just push everybody up and leave only the center backs to deal with counters, especially when one of them is as slow as Mertesacker and especially if you're going to be playing Ox at DM.
Giroud was just amazingly shit. He has had a fantastic season so far and that shouldn't get lost but this match just demonstrates (again) that he's ideally a squad player for a club with big ambitions, not a starting CF.
Sadly, I think 2-1 down was tough but not impossible but 3-1 down is pretty close to a death sentence. We'll need a million things to break right.
It was a really shit performance but let's not lose our minds here.
We got out thought which was the worst part. Monaco collapsed their midfield on their defence, then played long passes to take advantage on the break of our lack of speed in the back four. No width all game, not a lot of teamwork in terms of playing combinations. Wenger made the subs I'd expect, and Theo and Ox had an effect, but fuck...
The Monaco pitch is usually a cabbage patch, which is only going to make a nearly impossible job harder.
We got out thought which was the worst part. Monaco collapsed their midfield on their defence, then played long passes to take advantage on the break of our lack of speed in the back four. No width all game, not a lot of teamwork in terms of playing combinations. Wenger made the subs I'd expect, and Theo and Ox had an effect, but fuck...
The Monaco pitch is usually a cabbage patch, which is only going to make a nearly impossible job harder.
Wenger going for it made sense, giving up that second on a fucking break made it imperative to take a risk - losing 2-0 wasn't going to materially change their chances in the second half. Maybe at 2-1 you go back to a more normal shape but they were creating chances.Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
Nightmare is right. Atrocious performance by just about everyone. This team really needs a Ramsey type box-to-box player to function well. Ozil+Cazorla and the midfield just doesn't have enough steel.
And yeah, a bitter 0-1 loss would have been way better than this. The performance isn't Wenger's fault but the 2nd half tactics certainly opened the door for this result.
And yeah, a bitter 0-1 loss would have been way better than this. The performance isn't Wenger's fault but the 2nd half tactics certainly opened the door for this result.
The presence of away goals as a tiebreaker makes pushing at home in the opening leg a terrible strategy.Spacemans Bong said:
Spacemans Bong said:
Going for it at 0-2 made sense but twice we gave up goals on the break when we were only down 1.
I don't really disagree, I just understood why it happened. If they went to 2-1 in minute 80 then they probably do go into a more sensible shape.
On the plus side, the team plays Bayern Munich just as tough at home as some scrub 4th place French team.
That was an impressive act of self-destruction. It had everything: underachieving superstars, complete howlers, shoddy defending, poor effort, shellshocked manager.
The only bad part will be the eight months of "decline of English football" stories.
The only bad part will be the eight months of "decline of English football" stories.
I've watched the second and third goals on replay a few times now and the defending is just awful and frighteningly similar, whether its owed to tactics, execution, or a combination. On both goals we have both fullbacks pushed way high up the pitch. They don't factor into the defense in either case. Both are examples where the ball is lost on the wing in the opponent's end and our CB on that side is "pinching" up to immediately stop the man with the ball near the sideline, while neglecting space behind him. The second goal was particularly egregious in this respect because Mertesacker actually left his man on the wing in order to try this kind of maneuver but Koscielny really didn't cover himself in glory here either on the third goal. And then in each case once the pinch is defeated with a through ball down the wing we've only got one CB back to worry about the man with the ball and a possible runner on the other side. On the second goal, Kos plays it well by at least forcing the pass to Berbatov, but none of our players have hustled back enough to get there in time. On the third goal, we have a player (Bellerin I believe) busting his ass back to cover the man streaking toward goal on the opposite wing but Mertesacker is so poorly positioned and so slow that he can't get over to stop the man with the ball.
The biggest commonalities are that we were tactically naive in both instances (pushing both FBs and having a CB essentially cover a FB position in the opposite half, rather than retreating and trying to slow play enough for numbers to get back) and that on both plays Mertesacker was just awful, some of the worst defending I've seen. His play on the second goal jumps out at you more immediately but if you watch that third goal a few times, it becomes clear that he's just as bad there. His positioning was terrible - despite our play starting to break down, he's on the other side of the field and nowhere near close enough to help out, this despite there being no real threats on that side given that Bellerin is running with the opposite winger, and then once he finally realizes the danger he's just so slow to get over. Comparing how he played that situation with how Kos played a similar role on the second goal is pretty instructive. Kos has no issues cruising over to at least stop the ball, slow the play, and force a pass. Mertesacker is just lost.
We really should play Gabriel in the return leg. Per remains a good option for a lot of Premier League games where lesser opponents are just going to bang balls into the box and hope for the best and where opponents just don't have the skill and pace to be really dangerous on the break. Running him out there against teams that will play on the break with fast forwards and tricky players like Moutinho to release them, however, is suicidal. He's just a nightmare in space and in 1-v-1 or 2-v-2 or 3-v-3 situations.
The biggest commonalities are that we were tactically naive in both instances (pushing both FBs and having a CB essentially cover a FB position in the opposite half, rather than retreating and trying to slow play enough for numbers to get back) and that on both plays Mertesacker was just awful, some of the worst defending I've seen. His play on the second goal jumps out at you more immediately but if you watch that third goal a few times, it becomes clear that he's just as bad there. His positioning was terrible - despite our play starting to break down, he's on the other side of the field and nowhere near close enough to help out, this despite there being no real threats on that side given that Bellerin is running with the opposite winger, and then once he finally realizes the danger he's just so slow to get over. Comparing how he played that situation with how Kos played a similar role on the second goal is pretty instructive. Kos has no issues cruising over to at least stop the ball, slow the play, and force a pass. Mertesacker is just lost.
We really should play Gabriel in the return leg. Per remains a good option for a lot of Premier League games where lesser opponents are just going to bang balls into the box and hope for the best and where opponents just don't have the skill and pace to be really dangerous on the break. Running him out there against teams that will play on the break with fast forwards and tricky players like Moutinho to release them, however, is suicidal. He's just a nightmare in space and in 1-v-1 or 2-v-2 or 3-v-3 situations.
I was at the game last night lot of pissed off fans leaving early and missing the late goal.
Giroud was awful. He missed the two sitters right in front of me, my buddy has a kid playing for arsenal youth team and said he would be shocked to miss either let alone both.
I felt they were awful in the first half more than second. No plan. No real chances except went someone in midfield beat his man on the dribble or first touch and then drove fast at the next level, but even when this happened there was no movement. That was a feature of the match so many times Monaco just stayed organized and arsenal players stood around.
Real lack of movement up front.
After the changes that was a little better with more width but having loads of pace when you're two down and the other team is just sitting and ready wasn't obvious.
Monaco had that one great break for the second goal and their left wing was great all game but the first goal was a fluke and they had little until arsenal was chasing.
Giroud was awful. He missed the two sitters right in front of me, my buddy has a kid playing for arsenal youth team and said he would be shocked to miss either let alone both.
I felt they were awful in the first half more than second. No plan. No real chances except went someone in midfield beat his man on the dribble or first touch and then drove fast at the next level, but even when this happened there was no movement. That was a feature of the match so many times Monaco just stayed organized and arsenal players stood around.
Real lack of movement up front.
After the changes that was a little better with more width but having loads of pace when you're two down and the other team is just sitting and ready wasn't obvious.
Monaco had that one great break for the second goal and their left wing was great all game but the first goal was a fluke and they had little until arsenal was chasing.
Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
I don't know if you were watching on Sky, but Gary Neville absolutely ripped into Mertesacker after the goal which made it 2-0 - really good punditry, quick off the mark with his analysis. (I don't know what he said after it became 3-1, because I immediately switched off the TV and started throwing things around my living room.) I wonder why Gabriel hasn't had more run in the side already...maybe his language difficulties really are causing difficulties? Or maybe Wenger is being, well, Wenger?
To echo another comment I made in the other thread...would it really be the end of the world if Arsenal failed to make it into the top four? (Or even failing to make it into the top five, and therefore being able to concentrate on the league unless they win the FA Cup?) Liverpool showed last year what you can do when you have extra time to concentrate on each league match, and I don't really see our transfer policy or cash reserves suffering from one year on the sideline.
On a separate topic, do you think there's some sort of switch from British to European football that Wenger isn't flipping fast enough prior to the Champions League knockout stage? Because it's usually the first game of each R16 tie when we get stomped...is it a case of being slow to adapt in seemingly the same way every year, or is it more that Arsenal just isn't good enough and only does well in the second legs because they're too far gone for it to matter and their opposition gets complacent?
Well, the first problem is trying to convince players to come in that off-season when they know there is no European football that year. The other problem is that a year or two out means you won't be in pot 1 when you do get back in, meaning you will likely be in a tougher group and might not even make it to the last 16.ConigliarosPotential said:
I get all that, but Liverpool seemed to cope well under similar circumstances last year, and maybe a slightly tougher group-stage draw the following year might even toughen Arsenal up for the knockout stage (assuming they qualify, of course). Frankly, I wouldn't mind a season of Europa League football, either...that feels like a competition which, like the FA Cup, Arsenal could actually win at present.
ConigliarosPotential said:
I wasn't watching on Sky but Neville has definitely turned into one of my favorites pundits. I hated him as a player but he's usually on the mark when analyzing the game. He had a great piece on Bellerin a few weeks ago.
I don't think missing the Champions League would be the end of the world but it certainly wouldn't be good. In addition to the issues recruiting/retaining players, that's like 50-60M pounds when you factor in both the broadcast revenues and the matchday revenues. Right now, as far as I can tell, we're at a point where if we make CL we have about that much (50-60M) to spend every year on transfers while still balancing the books, which Kroenke seemingly demands. Take away CL and we're potentially back to the pattern of a few years ago of trying to break even in the transfer market.
There's a weird sort of bullying about Mesut, you can tell a lot of guys in the English game get stiffies when an expensive foreign player doesn't work. It's kinda fascist.
With Özil it specifically reeks of islamaphobia.
No one slags off di Maria or Falcao like they do Özil, for example
No one slags off di Maria or Falcao like they do Özil, for example
If it were Islamophobia, Mohamed Salah would have been shoved under a train months ago.
Realistically, I think it's the appearance that he doesn't try, when really Özil is just efficient with his movement and makes up for his lack of pace with awareness and positioning - when he's on.
If he has an off match, you don't see him sprinting around the pitch putting max effort in. He also tends to show minimal outward emotion, in victory or defeat - IMO that's where the vitriol comes from.
Realistically, I think it's the appearance that he doesn't try, when really Özil is just efficient with his movement and makes up for his lack of pace with awareness and positioning - when he's on.
If he has an off match, you don't see him sprinting around the pitch putting max effort in. He also tends to show minimal outward emotion, in victory or defeat - IMO that's where the vitriol comes from.
coremiller said:
I'm not fantasizing about it, but to repeat something I've said numerous times before, being a soccer fan in the modern game is all about relativity and expectation-setting. All any fan can want each season is for his club to do better than it did the year before and/or better than expected. Last year's FA Cup win notwithstanding, for nearly a decade Arsenal has done almost exactly what was expected of it and exactly the same as it did the year before. Why is it so difficult to understand that this might be a teensy bit frustrating, or why someone might rationally think that taking a step backward could be ultimately beneficial?
I think it's just some amusement, as some posters in this thread have been known to overreact a bit from game to game. It's just kind of funny that you guys are so desperate for something different to happen that you don't even care if it is bad.
Careful what you wish for, though. Liverpool made the Champions League several years in a row, always advancing to the knockout stages, then missed out in 2010-11, and it took until this season to get back in. Not only is it much harder to recruit new players, but players like Sanchez don't hang around very long if you aren't in.
Careful what you wish for, though. Liverpool made the Champions League several years in a row, always advancing to the knockout stages, then missed out in 2010-11, and it took until this season to get back in. Not only is it much harder to recruit new players, but players like Sanchez don't hang around very long if you aren't in.
What, exactly, do you think would change if Arsenal missed the Champions League?
Other than NOT having Champions League revenue anymore, I'm pretty sure the answer to that is "absolutely nothing positive", but I'm open to your guesses.
Other than NOT having Champions League revenue anymore, I'm pretty sure the answer to that is "absolutely nothing positive", but I'm open to your guesses.
The only real benefit would be that it might be easier to make a run at the league title with fewer games to play.
Team would have to have the talent to win the league first and IMO without Champions League football to offer, they aren't gonna get it. They certainly dont have it right now WITH Champions League football on offer.
ConigliarosPotential said:
Oh please. I understand the frustration, and if you were just venting, then fine. But don't try to actually defend the substance of the point. There is no rational argument that Arsenal would be better off on net if they missed the Champions League. It's an absolutely absurd claim that invites and deserves mockery.
I mean, you actually said this:
ConigliarosPotential said:
which is just inane. I assumed you were joking, but you doubled down on your ridiculous CL point, so ...
mikeford said:
Well, I think the team does potentially have the talent to win the league, or at least threaten to win it - the first half of last season is proof of that. (Saying they don't have the talent *is* an overreaction from last night.) Whether they have the manager, or overall management hierarchy, in place to do so is another question...and if failure to qualify for the Champions League triggers changes in that regard, that could be a good thing.
coremiller said:
It looks like Arsenal is about to exit the CL in the round of 16 for the sixth season in a row. Given the choice between living through that Sisyphean nightmare again and potentially winning (or coming very close to winning) the Europa League, why is it irrational to suggest I might prefer the latter? Isn't it more fun for some fans to watch their team battling for promotion and/or a title in the Championship instead of struggling against relegation in the Premiership?
But it wont. And you're delusional if you think it will. Silent Stan loves Arsene and so does the board. And theres exactly ZERO people on the board who are actually football knowledgeable.
You're engaging in the darkest form of wishcasting with this.
You're engaging in the darkest form of wishcasting with this.
Because the Europa League is a worthless distraction and playing FC FlipFlop from Macedonia on a Thursday night is a waste of time pain in the ass?ConigliarosPotential said:
Do you think Silent Stan will remain permanently loyal to Wenger if he stops qualifying for the Champions League? (For the record, I've actually softened my "Wenger Out!" stridency somewhat recently; I think he's done a pretty fair job this season for the most part, but I also still believe that more than one man can manager Arsenal Football Club.)
As for the Europa League...whisper it quietly, but the past two weeks of Europa League football have actually been pretty enjoyable. All of these "secondary" competitions - the League Cup, the FA Cup, even the Europa League - seem to go in and out of fashion, and the Europa League feels like it's on the upswing; having just watched Besiktas-Liverpool and Feyenoord-Roma, it sure looks to me as though fans of those clubs care a lot about the competition. Thursday football sucks, but Arsenal's squad is now deep enough to realistically do well on Thursdays and on the weekends.
Anyway, I'm not seriously going to root against Arsenal for the rest of the season and hope they fall out of the top four. I do, however, remain open to the possibility that the pain of them failing to qualify for the Champions League might lead to more pleasure as a fan in the long run.
As for the Europa League...whisper it quietly, but the past two weeks of Europa League football have actually been pretty enjoyable. All of these "secondary" competitions - the League Cup, the FA Cup, even the Europa League - seem to go in and out of fashion, and the Europa League feels like it's on the upswing; having just watched Besiktas-Liverpool and Feyenoord-Roma, it sure looks to me as though fans of those clubs care a lot about the competition. Thursday football sucks, but Arsenal's squad is now deep enough to realistically do well on Thursdays and on the weekends.
Anyway, I'm not seriously going to root against Arsenal for the rest of the season and hope they fall out of the top four. I do, however, remain open to the possibility that the pain of them failing to qualify for the Champions League might lead to more pleasure as a fan in the long run.
ConigliarosPotential said:
Because the Europa League SUCKS. The only reason to care about it is because winning it gets you into the Champions League (which is why teams are taking it more seriously this year). This is all obvious to everyone but you.
coremiller said:
So which is it: does the Europa League completely suck, or is it better now that winning it gets you into the Champions League and teams are taking it more seriously?
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