ALDS: Indians vs Red Sox

DeadlySplitter

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X's solid defense at SS can't take a game off now in the playoffs - we're already playing with fire a bit with Holt at 3rd. That said, he better move down tomorrow.

Pedey
Holt/AB
Mookie
Papi
Hanley
AB/Holt
X
Leon
JBJ

something like this. I actually wonder if Mookie could be moved down to 5th as Hanley had a pretty solid game tonight too.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Yeah. Terry Francona is the best manager in baseball and has been since 2007.
I love (and miss) Tito and his aggressiveness worked tonight but if Kluber can't go seven full tomorrow he may have fucked himself. Riding your two relief aces for 40 pitches when your starter was doing just fine is open for criticism or praise but that choice won't be made until the series closes.
 

JohntheBaptist

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I love (and miss) Tito and his aggressiveness worked tonight but if Kluber can't go seven full tomorrow he may have fucked himself. Riding your two relief aces for 40 pitches when your starter was doing just fine is open for criticism or praise but that choice won't be made until the series closes.
That's true--he's not perfect. The bullpen moves tonight were drastic enough they're definitely not just about tonight.
 

Lowrielicious

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I love (and miss) Tito and his aggressiveness worked tonight but if Kluber can't go seven full tomorrow he may have fucked himself. Riding your two relief aces for 40 pitches when your starter was doing just fine is open for criticism or praise but that choice won't be made until the series closes.
He certainly went all-in. If the good guys get a timely hit in the later innings to tie (if not win) it they have the bullpen advantage in the game and the series with at worst a 1-1 split heading back to fenway. Ballsy.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Tito may not be too worried about the long term effects. He rode the last good innings of Foulke's career in 04
Posted while I was typing. Exactly. Except Miller is arguably far more important than Foulke was to the team and its immediate future. They gave up a nice bounty for him and this is game one of the playoffs. He didn't drive Foulke into the ground until midway through the alcs.
 

capecodjr41

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The pen was lights out again. I thought Farrell played it well for the most part but was surprised to see Koji. What's the deal with the no back-to-back games? This needs to be re-evaluated if the situation dictates. He only threw 10 pitches and you can't afford to blow an 8th-inning lead. If he's truly not available he shouldn't have been used last night.
 

uk_sox_fan

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The pen was lights out again. I thought Farrell played it well for the most part but was surprised to see Koji. What's the deal with the no back-to-back games? This needs to be re-evaluated if the situation dictates. He only threw 10 pitches and you can't afford to blow an 8th-inning lead. If he's truly not available he shouldn't have been used last night.
Is anyone saying that he won't use him back-to-back? As Byrdbrain said, the expectation is that he would - the only restriction being he wouldn't go over 3 outs in any one game.
On the no back to back thing Farrell did late in the regular season say that even though he wasn't using Koji in that way in the regular season he would if he needed to in the post season. I'd post a link but I have no idea where I heard or read it.

and on predictions...
Predictions are silly. Who could have predicted the Sox would come back from 3 down in 2004, especially after the 19-8 drubbing at home in game 3? Who predicted the ALDS sweep by Chicago in 2005? Jayson Stark predicted the Rockies in 6 in the 2007 World Series, and I think he's as respected a writer as there is. There are just too many variables in a 5 game series, mostly of course the performance of the 25 players on each team.
Predictions are fun. They're like bets when you're not up for the financial consequences. You can look back and feel stupid or smug - after nearly nailing the 1st part of my prediction I'm really hoping that bodes well for the 2nd bit...
Sox in 4 but we take a gut-shot when Porcello gets rocked for 4 runs in the 2nd tonight and they lose the opener 6-4. Papi makes a speech before tomorrow afternoon and the Sox bats explode the rest of the way, outscoring the Tribe 29 - 5 over the final 3 games.
edit: formatting
 

DeadlySplitter

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all aboard uk_sox_fan's prediction train hopefully. That is exactly what happened with a couple of details one run / inning off, wow.
 

Pinchrunner#2

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I just saw this Brock Holt situation again when he got thrown out at the plate in the first inning.

1. So what happened to that rule, that says, that the catcher cannot stand between the runner and home plate when he doesnt have the baseball yet. Because that is exactly what happened. Holt had to run a circle around the catcher since Perez was standing in his way while not having the baseball.

2. What would have happened if Holt would have just slid into Perez?

3. Or is this an obsolete rule already?
 

Lowrielicious

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I haven't looked up the wording of the rule, but the way it's been enforced it's not obstruction. He was off the line until the throw took him into Holts path.

Fielder has a right to go get the ball and it's on the runner to get past.

Watching the replay I can't see a problem with it.

Catcher setup well inside fair territory until the throw pulled him down the line and into foul territory, which is allowed.

http://www.si.com/mlb/2015/06/05/home-plate-collision-rule-reds-phillies-carlos-ruiz-umpires
"In the majority of those plays, the catcher set up to receive the throw with his left foot on the leftfield foul line and only moved toward foul territory after receiving the throw in an attempt to apply the tag, or in an attempt to field the throw. In every one of those cases, the out call at the plate was upheld. In the two cases in which the call was overturned and the runner was ruled safe, the catcher initially set up with his left foot well into foul territory."


edit - replay link:
http://m.mlb.com/video/v1203283483/boscle-gm1-hanley-hits-rbi-double-holt-out-at-home/?game_pk=487602
 

mfried

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The pen was lights out again. I thought Farrell played it well for the most part but was surprised to see Koji. What's the deal with the no back-to-back games? This needs to be re-evaluated if the situation dictates. He only threw 10 pitches and you can't afford to blow an 8th-inning lead. If he's truly not available he shouldn't have been used last night.
Wait a sec. Koji shut down the Indians in the 8th. It was a 1-run game. 10 pitches - very good use. Ziegler' turn tonight. Both available Sunday.
 

Toe Nash

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For a single game in the playoffs I love what he did. But he runs the risk of leaving himself short handed or "Foulke/Proctor" - ing guys.
They have Otero and McAllister who are also pretty good and didn't pitch, and then they have a day off. I don't think this is an issue (yet). If he uses Miller or Allen today for more than an out or two, then maybe you worry.

I might have let Bauer finish the 5th but it was the third time through the order; one can make a reasonable argument that you shouldn't let anyone who isn't a top pitcher or pitching a no-no face a lineup three times in the playoffs.
 

Soxfan in Fla

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Francona was definitely aggressive with his pen last night and it paid off. Playoff Tito is hard to top sometimes. He just seems to push the buttons pretty damn well this time of year as we have enjoyed in the past.

Price needs to come up big tonight.
 

grimshaw

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I agree that the Indians pen is dominant, and their definite edge over Boston but if Bauer gets in trouble (3 runs or so by the 4th) that has been enough for Rick for most of the season. I fully expect Tito to have a quick hook, so I hope they can get that early lead before it happens.
I was on such a roll, too.
 

sodenj5

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IMO, Tito played that perfectly last night. He brought out arguably his best pitcher for the most critical outs in the game. Bauer was still effective, but do you trust him going through the heart of the Sox order again? He brought out Miller, got the outs he needed, and still had his closer available to shut it down.

Obviously Miller won't be available today, but in a 5 game series, winning the first game is big, especially with home field advantage. If the Indians split with the Sox at Fenway, they still get Game 5 with Kluber at home.
 

Byrdbrain

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I still don't see the need to bring Miller in to face Holt with 2 out and no one on. If Bauer gets that out then you pitch Miller for 2 and he may be able to get you a full inning tonight. If he doesn't then you can bring him in to face Betts.
I do like the aggressive bullpen use, unlike another certain managerial genius, but I thought that was a bit too much.
 

DrBoston

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My reactionary post for the day...I still think the Sox win in 4...

What an awful game for the Sox last night, flailing away at every garbage pitch Cleveland threw (which was most of them...only Miller wasn't throwing trash and even he was getting calls 6+ inches off the plate). Some of the worst plate discipline I've ever seen in a major league game. The only one of the kids who didn't barf down his jersey with the pressure of the moment was Benintendi. Mookie, JBJ, and especially Xander were horrendous. Xander in particular has looked lost and atrocious at the plate, flailing half-assed at every terrible pitch almost like he wants to get every at-bat over with as quickly as possible. He's been this way since the all-star break but it's gotten exponentially worse...last night was the nadir. I legitimately would have no problem with Farrell pinch-hitting for him late in a tight game like last night.

And Porcello? Giving up 3 HR in an inning by leaving everything hanging? He picked a bad time to have his first terrible game of the season. Drew Pomeranz, who came on in relief, pitched 100% better than Ricky did, and the rest of the pen was damn good, too.

Today's a new day, and Cleveland shot their bullpen wad last night, so the Sox *should* win this one going away. I was hoping for a split anyway before the series moves back to Boston, and I'm sticking with it. Go Sox!
 

tims4wins

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I still don't see the need to bring Miller in to face Holt with 2 out and no one on. If Bauer gets that out then you pitch Miller for 2 and he may be able to get you a full inning tonight. If he doesn't then you can bring him in to face Betts.
I do like the aggressive bullpen use, unlike another certain managerial genius, but I thought that was a bit too much.
Right, this is where I'm at. Overall it worked for Tito and the Tribe got the victory which was the most important thing. But Tito probably could have saved 10-15 pitches from Miller if he had just waited a bit. Brock Holt with 2 outs and no on is not an urgent situation calling for your fireman.
 

DJnVa

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I'm okay with things. Solo HR's suck, we had a brief brain cramp by the rookie in LF and a guy called out at the plate on replay. We need to get to Kluber early and see exactly what the rest of the CLE pen has.

Time for Price to earn that money. I have faith.
 

HomeRunBaker

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IMO, Tito played that perfectly last night. He brought out arguably his best pitcher for the most critical outs in the game. Bauer was still effective, but do you trust him going through the heart of the Sox order again? He brought out Miller, got the outs he needed, and still had his closer available to shut it down.

Obviously Miller won't be available today, but in a 5 game series, winning the first game is big, especially with home field advantage. If the Indians split with the Sox at Fenway, they still get Game 5 with Kluber at home.
I agree, Tito was genius. He didn't burn out Miller any more by having him face Holt as he would be getting two days off regardless with Sat being a travel day. Played Game 1 like a Game 7 knowing Kluber is going for him in Game 2 with a day off before Game 3 when his pen will be at full strength. That's how a playoff bullpen is supposed to be used situationally. Tito knows there was a good chance of going up 2-0 heading to Boston and he took full advantage of this opportunity.

I also liked Farrell bringing in Koji once it was a 1-run game again having Sat off allows him Koji to be available today while still being available for Game 3.
 

timlinin8th

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What an awful game for the Sox last night, flailing away at every garbage pitch Cleveland threw (which was most of them...only Miller wasn't throwing trash and even he was getting calls 6+ inches off the plate). Some of the worst plate discipline I've ever seen in a major league game. The only one of the kids who didn't barf down his jersey with the pressure of the moment was Benintendi. Mookie, JBJ, and especially Xander were horrendous. Xander in particular has looked lost and atrocious at the plate, flailing half-assed at every terrible pitch almost like he wants to get every at-bat over with as quickly as possible. He's been this way since the all-star break but it's gotten exponentially worse...last night was the nadir. I legitimately would have no problem with Farrell pinch-hitting for him late in a tight game like last night.
In fairness, anyone would look lost at the plate if they have to cover a strikezone that was eyeballs to ankles. In one of his ABs (I think his second one) Papi took a called strike two that was pretty low, forcing him to swing at an extremely low breaking pitch for strike three. I agree about Xander though - his woes are not limited to last night and really needs to be dropped down.
 

HomeRunBaker

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In fairness, anyone would look lost at the plate if they have to cover a strikezone that was eyeballs to ankles. In one of his ABs (I think his second one) Papi took a called strike two that was pretty low, forcing him to swing at an extremely low breaking pitch for strike three. I agree about Xander though - his woes are not limited to last night and really needs to be dropped down.
The 3rd strike to Hanley was insane as well.
 

tims4wins

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My disappointment in last night lies in the fact that the Sox lost the battle of the little things. The Tribe executed the relay. The Tribe took the extra base on the fly to Benintendi whereas Hernandez didn't take 3rd in a perfect situation to try. Both of those plays were factors in the game. The Sox didn't lose last night because Porcello gave up 3 solo homers. They got beat because they were out executed at the little things. I'm not going down the Farrell rabbit hole but they need to play better in those aspects.
 

Saints Rest

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I still don't see the need to bring Miller in to face Holt with 2 out and no one on. If Bauer gets that out then you pitch Miller for 2 and he may be able to get you a full inning tonight. If he doesn't then you can bring him in to face Betts.
I do like the aggressive bullpen use, unlike another certain managerial genius, but I thought that was a bit too much.
Managers, commentators, et al everywhere talk about letting a reliever start a clean inning. What was interesting last night to me was that Francona made the choice, with both Miller and Shaw, to allow his relievers to start with clear bases and 2 outs. Miller clearly was a bit over-amped to start, giving up the double and walk, but since he only needed one out to get out of the inning, he was able to get that out and get off the mound. I'm not sure if it was coincidental or strategic, but again with Shaw, Tito let him get the one quick out and then go settle down.

During the in-game interview, which is usually stupid pablum, I found it interesting that TF talked about the mental aspect of the playoffs -- "these are young guys" -- and how important it was mentally to get the game immediately tied up in the bottom of the first.

I think what makes Francona great is that he understands that the playoffs are differently mentally, not just circumstantially, and thus he needs to manage in a different way to counteract those potentially negative effects. I think it is why he is so willing to go all in with his relievers: get a win today, worry about tomorrow tomorrow.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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My disappointment in last night lies in the fact that the Sox lost the battle of the little things. The Tribe executed the relay. The Tribe took the extra base on the fly to Benintendi whereas Hernandez didn't take 3rd in a perfect situation to try. Both of those plays were factors in the game. The Sox didn't lose last night because Porcello gave up 3 solo homers. They got beat because they were out executed at the little things. I'm not going down the Farrell rabbit hole but they need to play better in those aspects.
No one on the team acted like they had ever seen a curveball before. I mean, they were swinging at crap that was bouncing 4 feet in front of the plate. Not sure what that means going forward but last night it was extremely concerning.
 

DrBoston

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In fairness, anyone would look lost at the plate if they have to cover a strikezone that was eyeballs to ankles. In one of his ABs (I think his second one) Papi took a called strike two that was pretty low, forcing him to swing at an extremely low breaking pitch for strike three. I agree about Xander though - his woes are not limited to last night and really needs to be dropped down.
Totally agree...Miller was getting calls 6+ inches off the plate and some of the other calls throughout...woof. Also, how many questionable check swing calls from the base umps? Although to be fair, with the way the Sox were flailing away all night, I've never seen so many goddamn strikes called on check swings anyway!

Jackie is in a slump and Mookie looked overwhelmed by the moment. Benintendi did not...very mature for his age (but we've seen that since August). Xander, though...his body language is poor, he's flailing half-assed at everything, his weight is off-balance, he's on his front foot...he just looks terrible in every way. The polar opposite of how he looked in the 1st half of the season. I don't know if he's exhausted or if it's mental (probably a combination of both) but he either needs to sit a game or be moved even further down than 6th because he is KILLING the team.
 

DrBoston

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No one on the team acted like they had ever seen a curveball before. I mean, they were swinging at crap that was bouncing 4 feet in front of the plate. Not sure what that means going forward but last night it was extremely concerning.
Yup. Even Pedroia! That really shocked me, but I'm not going to take anything away from Dustin because he's a gamer and he battled to the bitter end in that final at-bat last night.
 

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My disappointment in last night lies in the fact that the Sox lost the battle of the little things. The Tribe executed the relay. The Tribe took the extra base on the fly to Benintendi whereas Hernandez didn't take 3rd in a perfect situation to try. Both of those plays were factors in the game. The Sox didn't lose last night because Porcello gave up 3 solo homers. They got beat because they were out executed at the little things. I'm not going down the Farrell rabbit hole but they need to play better in those aspects.
A "little thing" was also Chisenhall not holding the bag and X holding the tag, erasing a runner from scoring position. Papi taking the extra base that he never would have during the season gave them a chance late. There was good and bad on both sides, and many, many things that could have changed the outcome.
 

TFisNEXT

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No one on the team acted like they had ever seen a curveball before. I mean, they were swinging at crap that was bouncing 4 feet in front of the plate. Not sure what that means going forward but last night it was extremely concerning.
Yeah it got worse late in the game too. Allen was not that great last night...he hung several breaking balls in the 8th inning that Hanley and Xander missed and then he was throwing 58 footers in the 9th but these guys couldn't stop swinging. Not all that many of his pitches were tantalizingly close as to induce a swing (under normal circumstances). The Red Sox got themselves out and failed to mash mistakes over the heart of the plate late in the game. Allen's performance was what the Red Sox typically punish severely. They smoke the hanging breaking balls and then let him walk you with all those "not close" breaking balls, but they completely vomited all over themselves in the final couple innings. Again, the only one who looked good was Benintendi. I'll give Pedey credit too, that final at bat was pretty solid, though the K pitch was one he doesn't typically offer at.
 

DrBoston

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Yeah it got worse late in the game too. Allen was not that great last night...he hung several breaking balls in the 8th inning that Hanley and Xander missed and then he was throwing 58 footers in the 9th but these guys couldn't stop swinging. Not all that many of his pitches were tantalizingly close as to induce a swing (under normal circumstances). The Red Sox got themselves out and failed to mash mistakes over the heart of the plate late in the game. Allen's performance was what the Red Sox typically punish severely. They smoke the hanging breaking balls and then let him walk you with all those "not close" breaking balls, but they completely vomited all over themselves in the final couple innings. Again, the only one who looked good was Benintendi. I'll give Pedey credit too, that final at bat was pretty solid, though the K pitch was one he doesn't typically offer at.
100% agree with your post.
At this point, especially with Xander, he should almost keep the bat on his shoulder until he gets something down the middle, because the book is out on him and they're going to just keep throwing junk down and away until he stops flailing away at it.

Another thing I didn't mention earlier, but I thought both managers were really damn good last night with their moves. Tito is Tito, although using up his bullpen in an all-out effort might cost him today, while Farrell didn't make any bad moves, IMO.
 

wilked

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Ya, it's not like everything went against the Sox last night. I would say the tag-out replay at 2nd was a big swing in their favor, and defensively Jackie and Hanley's plays are plays they probably make < 50% of the time (more Hanley's than Jackie's). On the other side of the ledger are the umps strike calls (strikes and check swings) and the great tag by Perez in the first
 

DrBoston

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Ya, it's not like everything went against the Sox last night. I would say the tag-out replay at 2nd was a big swing in their favor, and defensively Jackie and Hanley's plays are plays they probably make < 50% of the time (more Hanley's than Jackie's). On the other side of the ledger are the umps strike calls (strikes and check swings) and the great tag by Perez in the first
What was up with that check swing call the home plate ump made on Pedroia (I think?) in the 9th? He was overly emphatic with it and when he went down to the 1st base ump after, he just kind of shrugged. That was a weird one for me.
 

TFisNEXT

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Drew Pomeranz also really showed up last night. He was deployed exactly how you draw it up. Porcello didn't have it and Pomeranz came in and gave them a chance to come back by holding the line for multiple innings. The bats never fully figured it out as already documented, but Pomeranz's relief appearance was one of the big bright spots.
 

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Yeah it got worse late in the game too. Allen was not that great last night...he hung several breaking balls in the 8th inning that Hanley and Xander missed and then he was throwing 58 footers in the 9th but these guys couldn't stop swinging. Not all that many of his pitches were tantalizingly close as to induce a swing (under normal circumstances). The Red Sox got themselves out and failed to mash mistakes over the heart of the plate late in the game. Allen's performance was what the Red Sox typically punish severely. They smoke the hanging breaking balls and then let him walk you with all those "not close" breaking balls, but they completely vomited all over themselves in the final couple innings. Again, the only one who looked good was Benintendi. I'll give Pedey credit too, that final at bat was pretty solid, though the K pitch was one he doesn't typically offer at.
I'm not going to gush over Benintendi, I'm pretty steamed at his brain fart in the OF that led to the extra base and eventually the deciding run. It's not the first time he's mentally screwed up (he hurt himself trying to advance from second in a situation where the Sox don't run, stupid thing to do) and if he's going to contribute in the playoffs he can't make stupid mental mistakes.

Blah blah blah, "he's a rookie," but that's no excuse. Will Myers is still waiting to get back to the playoffs after letting that fly ball drop in 2013; Benintendi needs to make sure he doesn't screw up again in the field.

He had a great night at the plate, but the game is much more than that and he cost them dearly with that screwup in the OF. He needs to pay attention at all times. Hopefully he'll learn from it.
 

Rico Guapo

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I'm not going to gush over Benintendi, I'm pretty steamed at his brain fart in the OF that led to the extra base and eventually the deciding run. It's not the first time he's mentally screwed up (he hurt himself trying to advance from second in a situation where the Sox don't run, stupid thing to do) and if he's going to contribute in the playoffs he can't make stupid mental mistakes.

Blah blah blah, "he's a rookie," but that's no excuse. Will Myers is still waiting to get back to the playoffs after letting that fly ball drop in 2013; Benintendi needs to make sure he doesn't screw up again in the field.

He had a great night at the plate, but the game is much more than that and he cost them dearly with that screwup in the OF. He needs to pay attention at all times. Hopefully he'll learn from it.
He was in High A ball six months ago, there are going to be growing pains and unfortunately they showed up last night on that play in the outfield.
 

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He was in High A ball six months ago, there are going to be growing pains and unfortunately they showed up last night on that play in the outfield.
Again....so what? Losing your focus can't happen in the playoffs. I don't care how raw he is. He played a huge part in costing the Sox a key run. It cannot happen again. I certainly hope one of the coaches has spoken to him about it.

There is no time for growing pains in the postseason.
 
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grimshaw

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I agree with others that Tito managed that perfectly. It's not like Miller was on fumes at the end of his outing either. I bet he's good for an inning, (even to close if needed) and then with the day off is probably good for another inning in game 3. Allen is arguably only their 3rd best reliever, so not a huge loss that he was burned. They still have Otero who could probably do a lengthy high leverage outing as well.
 

DrBoston

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He was in High A ball six months ago, there are going to be growing pains and unfortunately they showed up last night on that play in the outfield.
Yeah, I'm not gonna crush Benintendi for that brain fart...it was his 1st playoff game and 3 months ago he was in Portland playing AA ball. If you're gonna kill anyone for stinking it up in their first playoff game, JBJ and Mookie are the ones. And even worse, Xander, who has been here before (and played damn well!) in 2013. If it happens again with Benni, then yeah, I'll be miffed, but I've got no problem with him after last night.
 

Stitch01

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Again....so what? Losing your focus can't happen in the playoffs. I don't care how raw he is. He played a huge part in costing the Sox a key run. It cannot happen again. I certainly hope one of the coaches has spoken to him about it.

There is no time for growing pains in the postseason.
He was a net positive contributor last night who made a slight mental error. Im not sure it was "lack of focus". For all I know he was extra focused on making the catch.

Sure, he should have been better positioned to stop the guy from tagging up, it was an error. But reality is still he's six months out of A-ball and we are going to get some young player mistakes, best hope is that he doesn't make the same mistake twice. If you want to play Chris Young instead to avoid all young player errors, that's cool, but Im not going to get steamed that the 22 year old making his playoff debut wasn't perfect.
 

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That was an insane play by Ramirez - taking 2nd.

He get's thrown out there with no outs? He's a complete asshole. The guy was lucky the throw was a little off.
 

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He was a net positive contributor last night who made a slight mental error. Im not sure it was "lack of focus". For all I know he was extra focused on making the catch.

Sure, he should have been better positioned to stop the guy from tagging up, it was an error. But reality is still he's six months out of A-ball and we are going to get some young player mistakes, best hope is that he doesn't make the same mistake twice. If you want to play Chris Young instead to avoid all young player errors, that's cool, but Im not going to get steamed that the 22 year old making his playoff debut wasn't perfect.
Even if it costs the team the game? OK then. That's where we differ.

Replay showed pretty clearly he had no idea the runner would try to tag. He wasn't focused enough on the game.

Ah to be young again, where all screwups are swept under the rug. I'll say this much, if it happens again I'd bench his ass.
 

Stitch01

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Jul 15, 2005
18,155
Boston
He didn't cost the team the game last night, so not sure what that means.

Even if he had, I personally think the positives of playing him probably outweigh the negatives against right handers. But sure, if you think he's going to be prone to mental mistakes the team cant live with just sit him and play Chris Young.
 

TFisNEXT

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Jul 21, 2005
12,537
It was definitely a mental error, but a good throw still had Ramirez smoked. The throw beat him by like 10 feet but was offline. It was probably a bad play both by the base runner and Benintendi, and the base runner was the one who got away with it.