Never thought I'd be advocating for a Kluber start at this point in the season, but I agree with all this. Don't know what the Sox are doing fucking around with such a fungible player.
2023 Starting Rotation
- Thread starter Rovin Romine
- Start date
The 40 man roster spot is needed for Duvall tomorrow assuming that's when they activate him. I expect to see Kluber pitch at some point tonight, maybe the Sox wanted somebody else to start the game and keep Kluber coming in from the pen, hoping he'll get used to it because unless he shows great improvement over what he's done so far that's where he's staying.
They could have just called up Walter. Sure, he’s been bad at AAA, but so has Murphy. (Of course, Walter pitched on the 6th so they would have had to hold him back).
ah well.
ah well.
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They must think that there's some pathway to Kluber restoring his command that doesn't involve throwing him back into a starting role. It's beyond obvious to do that, so it's not like they didn't think of it.
He's a real good guy. Met him at a fundraiser once. Sponsored legislation after Sandy Hook tragedy. Less of a blowhard than Blumenthal. To get this on a baseball topic, Sen Murphy actually played catcher in the annual Congressional ballgame. Sen Murphy had some fine plays behind the plate including withstanding a collision play
Hey, it's nobody's fault. It's been said over and over again that injuries are just random bad luck I read it here! It must be true!
View: https://twitter.com/SmittyOnMLB/status/1666995740135116803
Corey Kluber declined to speak with the media. I've been told by two sources he has not been DFA'd despite some general speculation on Twitter just because of how he was left out there for so long tonight Could that change? Maybe. But as of now, not involved in any roster moves
Corey Kluber declined to speak with the media. I've been told by two sources he has not been DFA'd despite some general speculation on Twitter just because of how he was left out there for so long tonight Could that change? Maybe. But as of now, not involved in any roster moves
Come on, how could Chaim have possibly seen this starting rotation as injury prone. Nobody could have seen this coming! And he also had a perfectly good plan to replace the most popular player in Boston at SS. His plan was to turn a career utility player, who is below average at the plate (though prone to hot streaks) and a very good defensive CF, into your starting SS. What is wrong with that?Any GM would have done the same.
The SS replacement stuff isn't entirely fair. Obviously the plan was to move Story there, and that likely would have worked out fine. Now, one can criticize him for running Arroyo back out at 2B -- the Story replacement plan was really shoddy, IMHO.
Story had elbow surgery in early January. If the obvious plan was to move Story there, it wasn't a very good one.
Well, he isn't necessarily lost for the season, and it's clear the FO has no interest in signing anyone to a long-ish term SS deal with Mayer on the horizon.
X left before Story's surgery. So there absolutely should have been a better plan to replace Story at 2B than running Arroyo back. That's my main point. Even if Story was healthy, we were, by design, going into this season with a much worse middle IF duo than we had the year prior.
Due to the Guardians game on Monday, the Red Sox would have needed an extra starter either yesterday or today.
I think I've said this before, but if you can't send Corey Kluber out as a spot starter in cases like this, he shouldn't even be on the roster.
As it turns out he shit the bed anyway, but that doesn't make it the right decision.
Well, Sale's gone on the 60 Day IL.
He might be back in August at the earliest, but there's been reporting other players with similar injuries have been out longer.
I think that might be it for the season at this point. It's possible that Paxton/Bello/Houck/Whitlock/Crawford work. . .but while Paxton has been a pleasant surprise, and Bello has been good recently, Houck, Whitlock, and Crawford would need to immediately step things up a notch or two. It also really exposes the SP depth - there is no more depth unless they want to stretch Winckowski back out to start.
I mean, theoretically, the current SPs could struggle for a month and have a hot second half. But I'm not sure that would be good enough to make up the deficit.
He might be back in August at the earliest, but there's been reporting other players with similar injuries have been out longer.
I think that might be it for the season at this point. It's possible that Paxton/Bello/Houck/Whitlock/Crawford work. . .but while Paxton has been a pleasant surprise, and Bello has been good recently, Houck, Whitlock, and Crawford would need to immediately step things up a notch or two. It also really exposes the SP depth - there is no more depth unless they want to stretch Winckowski back out to start.
I mean, theoretically, the current SPs could struggle for a month and have a hot second half. But I'm not sure that would be good enough to make up the deficit.
Apparently wallowing in Chaim-Chate here is more fun than discussing an awesome start by Whitlock doing exactly what we need the staff to do with the ace out for at least 60 days.
And outdueled Cole at the Toilet too!
And outdueled Cole at the Toilet too!
Yep. That's just the step forward we need a couple of guys in the group to make.
Paxton, Bello, Whitlock, Houck and Crawford have pitched to a combined 3.66 FIP in 95 IP over the last 30 days.
The team with the best starting rotation FIP over the last 30 days is the Marlins, with a 3.46 FIP in 144 innings. Our crew of Paxton, Bello, Whitlock, Houck and Crawford would rank 2nd in MLB over that stretch, just ahead of the Cardinals at 3.68 FIP.
The team with the best starting rotation FIP over the last 30 days is the Marlins, with a 3.46 FIP in 144 innings. Our crew of Paxton, Bello, Whitlock, Houck and Crawford would rank 2nd in MLB over that stretch, just ahead of the Cardinals at 3.68 FIP.
And the offense turned into a pumpkin during this stretch.
Similarly to last season, it seemed when the runs were plentiful, the bullpen was failing and they’d lose too many 9-8. The pitching would finally be good and they’d lose a bunch 3-2.
I think that Paxton, Bello, Whitlock, Houck, and Crawford is a very intriguing rotation. However, I think that the biggest issue with that being the rotation is that it seriously weakens the bullpen. With Schreiber down, and Whitlock, Houck, and Crawford all in the rotation, the bullpen gets very then after Kenley, Martin, and maybe Winck(although it forces him into more high lev situations than is probably ideal). Playing the long game, this will help let us know what we have in Bello, Whitlock, Houck, and Crawford as potential long term rotation pieces.
That's more important than winning a few more games this year, but it doesn't mean that watching bullpen implosions this year won't be a bit frustrating.
That's more important than winning a few more games this year, but it doesn't mean that watching bullpen implosions this year won't be a bit frustrating.
This brings up one of my biggest pet peeves with the part of the fanbase that says the organization doesn't develop starting pitchers well (they haven't). But it also seems that when a guy who has had success in the minors as a starter comes up or is close to coming up, the knee-jerk reaction is "hey he might be helpful in the pen right now". If you want the organization to develop starting pitchers, you have to let them develop as starters even if that's at the MLB level. As BMHH this is a good chance for the latter 4 to develop even further and figure out what it's like to work through ups and downs in a big-league rotation, things that'll help both them and the team in the long run as well.
The game thread was a nice place for that yesterday, but 15 hours later I'm still pretty excited. Was that the highlight of the season so far?
Yeah and that plays right into the fire-chaim thing, where people are mad about short term results. You'll never develop anything, especially starting pitching, if you can't give them any sort of leash. Lots of people I sorta like (Carrabis pod etc) and good posters here spent hours talking about how Whitlock is needed in the pen. Bloom and the rest of the org are committed to development this year, all but admitting it's a bridge year, but it's the thing that HAS to happen.
There have been an extremely high number of whiffs for pitchers signing for 10 mill AAV and up this offseason.
By AAV and value earned:
Verlander - 43 mill for 1.7 mill value
deGrom - 37.5 - and already 63 mill underwater until 2025
Rodon - 27 mill and nothing to show for it with an alarming injury
Bassitt - 21 mill, and under pace by quite a bit. Least disastrous of the top 4 paid guys.
Martin Perez - 19 mill and well under pace
Taijuan Walker - 18 mill and well under pace.
Between 10 and 18 mill, Taillon, Manaea, Syndergaard, Stripling, and Tyler Anderson.
Other bad deals including relievers that have plenty of time to turn around - Robert Suarez (5 years and hasn't pitched, Rafeal Montero, Taylor Rogers. Senga and Heaney have been only so so.
Martin and Jansen could earn their deals and are both tradeable. Pablo Lopez has been solid, but at the cost of a .400 hitter.
The biggest bargain was Eflin whom the Sox offered 3yrs/40 for (one of the few reported firm offers) and believed would sign. Then he leveraged that deal to sign with the Rays, because of course he did. The other successes included Wacha, Eovaldi and Kershaw being Kershaw.
This isn't the thread for it, but the offensive signings have been collective failures as well.
If nothing else, Bloom showed good restraint and he is free to try again in 2024 while others lick their wounds.
By AAV and value earned:
Verlander - 43 mill for 1.7 mill value
deGrom - 37.5 - and already 63 mill underwater until 2025
Rodon - 27 mill and nothing to show for it with an alarming injury
Bassitt - 21 mill, and under pace by quite a bit. Least disastrous of the top 4 paid guys.
Martin Perez - 19 mill and well under pace
Taijuan Walker - 18 mill and well under pace.
Between 10 and 18 mill, Taillon, Manaea, Syndergaard, Stripling, and Tyler Anderson.
Other bad deals including relievers that have plenty of time to turn around - Robert Suarez (5 years and hasn't pitched, Rafeal Montero, Taylor Rogers. Senga and Heaney have been only so so.
Martin and Jansen could earn their deals and are both tradeable. Pablo Lopez has been solid, but at the cost of a .400 hitter.
The biggest bargain was Eflin whom the Sox offered 3yrs/40 for (one of the few reported firm offers) and believed would sign. Then he leveraged that deal to sign with the Rays, because of course he did. The other successes included Wacha, Eovaldi and Kershaw being Kershaw.
This isn't the thread for it, but the offensive signings have been collective failures as well.
If nothing else, Bloom showed good restraint and he is free to try again in 2024 while others lick their wounds.
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I'd argue that Bassitt has been a good signing for the Jays. In 13 starts he has had 2 implosions which are no doubt making his numbers look humdrum but the majority of the rest of the starts have been fantastic, and most importantly the guy goes deep into games.
Looks like Crawford's in the rotation.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/red-sox-reportedly-have-made-decision-on-right-hander/ar-AA1cnLkM?ocid=HPCDHP&li=BBnbfcL
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/red-sox-reportedly-have-made-decision-on-right-hander/ar-AA1cnLkM?ocid=HPCDHP&li=BBnbfcL
On the deGrom contract....
Obviously nobody questions the ability this guy has. Enormous. He's just an incredible pitcher.
However... last two seasons:
2021: 15 g, 92.0 ip
2022: 11 g, 64.1 ip
Then Texas signed him to a 5-year, $185m deal ($37m per year) plus a 6th season with a mutual $37m option. For a guy at that age with that injury history.
And then came 2023: 6 g, 30.1 ip
He's done for the rest of 2023. And he's most likely done for 2024. So the next time they'll likely see him is 2025, when they will already have paid $70 million for six games and 30 innings.
By the time he comes back (say, April 2025), he will be 37 years of age, not having pitched in a major league game for about 21 months. And they'll still owe him $115 million.
That's way worse than the Chris Sale deal. Yikes.
Personally, amid the wreckage of our defense and the poisonous atmosphere wrt the front office, I am getting pretty excited about the rotation. How many young, cost-controlled quality starting pitchers do we need before we have a serious advantage here? And don't throw back plain old numbers, Houck and Whitlock are evolving before our eyes. This is the foundation of a team that can turn around and spend on top end players -- not the de Grom or Rodon high-priced risks but the more reliable investments.
Big Maple, Whitlock, Bello, Houck, and Crawford has the makings of a top 10 rotation. I think Crawford is highly underrated, as he's developing into much more than a number 5 pitcher. Houck, too, probably because he's come around so slowly. Depth is thin, though, as Winckowski is the only guy on the roster I would like to see as a stop-gap starter, and without Crawford, bullpen depth is lean. Maybe Murphy can turn into a swing man? That would make me a lot more comfortable!
As far as spending on starters goes, as long as Paxton is still around, I don't think there's a strong need to go out and get another starter. So, that's on the back burner, as far as I'm concerned. I'd try to get another quality late reliever first.
I wouldn't be surprised if Bloom brings in another starter. Likely a fringe guy, ideally with options or on a minor league deal to stash in WOOstah because Klubler isn't dependable and they are likely going to need another arm at some point. Not needing to rush someone up who isn't ready is likely a preference for the club.
The thought crossed my mind, Crawford moving into the rotation and Kluber's ineffectiveness is really stretching that pen's abilities.
I’ve advocated for dealing Yorke (A’s centerpiece of a package with Dalbec and a younger flier) to add a starting pitcher at the deadline if the Sox are still competitive and nipping at the heels of the WC.
There’s enough MI talent to step in (Meidroth, Romero, Lugo, Valdez, Paulinho, Bonaci). Bloom needs to cash in on some of his prospects. Obviously it’s have to be someone with 2 years at least remaining.
*Ducking shoes being hurled by everyone*
There’s enough MI talent to step in (Meidroth, Romero, Lugo, Valdez, Paulinho, Bonaci). Bloom needs to cash in on some of his prospects. Obviously it’s have to be someone with 2 years at least remaining.
*Ducking shoes being hurled by everyone*
Rotation for the Rockies series. PeteAbe notes a potential oddity
View: https://twitter.com/PeteAbe/status/1667979970793160707?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
View: https://twitter.com/PeteAbe/status/1667979970793160707?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
Every time I look on mlb.com it's a bunch of TBAs. Seems unnecessary but I'd bet it's just failure to clarify, not Whitlock is being held back. They don't have a sixth starter right now.
Tanner's peripherals give me some hope. 8.76 K/9 and 3.11 BB/9 are doable, but he's giving up more home runs than usual (18.8% HR/FB is well above what it was in 2020-22) and he's still got a strong groundball rate (50.3%). Also suffering from a low strand rate (63.4%). His FIP (4.29) is almost a full run below his actual ERA (5.23), and his xFIP is even lower (3.64). The new cutter has graded positive so far (+1.7 per FanGraphs).
SMH to the bolded.
Bloom is, fortunately, no Lou Gorman (or SLT). He's not going to trade Yorke -- his first first-round draft pick, who is tearing up AA after a tough year at A+, and is a guy with the potential to be the next Bagwell. Not happening.
Of the names you mention, I can see Dalbec, Lugo, Valdez and Paulinho being offered. Maybe Bonaci down the line if Rafaela can hit with plate discipline.
I know. It's one of the worst ideas I've heard here in a long time, and that's saying something.
You worry about the logjam when it really is, you know, a logjam. Right now, you see what you have in Yorke, because that hit tool might be something pretty special.
I know whenever anything is bad I try to argue that it's not our new permanent reality. But what we are seeing from the rotation? Welcome to our new permanent reality!
Oh come on. It’s not a bad idea…. You might disagree but I advocated years ago that DD needed to trade one of Moncada or Devers because of the future logjam and got shouted down. Devers to 1B or DH was his natural position, to Moncada could move to 2B where there wasn’t the logjam etc….
This week is a good example of all the question marks coming up "yes." Of course, none of the 4 have a real track record of sustained yes-ness, but they dont *all* have to be great every time. Hopefully they all evolve into "good 60-75% of the time."
Moncada got traded for Chris Sale though. The problem today is finding Chris Sale-level talent that a team is willing to part with; the new playoff structure means teams are more stingy with talent like that. Which team has a high-level starter with multiple years of control that's also out of the playoff chase and doesn't have an imminent prospect window opening?
The White Sox (again)? Dylan Cease has two more years of team control after this season. Not advocating for trading for Cease here. He just fits the criteria of the question. He's also having a somewhat down year, relative to the last two anyway, so maybe he'd come cheaper?
Yeah, and if a player like that is out there, he will be in incredibly high demand and will not be traded for a package fronted by a guy like Yorke. What’s a similar package to what got Sale? Mayer for Moncada, ok…but the Sox don’t even really have a guy like Kopech.
