2023 QB Carousel

Van Everyman

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2009
27,575
Newton
Exactly how does adding the adjective "douche-y" help you to make your point?

And what evidence do you have that the players on the Princeton team were "douche-y", whatever that means? Rather, what evidence do you have that they were MORE "douche-y" than the players on every other team in the tournament?
Maybe it doesn’t? If you’re objecting to it on the basis of it, being a gendered term, I agree and probably shouldn’t have used it.. But if you were asking about why I might. E cutting down those guys, there was a lot of discussion in the game thread, and online in general about the sense of privilege with this Princeton team, and posters’ experience with some of the players and the school in general (I had a little bit myself). That was what it was referring to.

And Bill as well, according to that definition.
Good point – and if we’re being honest, Jonathan Kraft in some ways as well.

It may be worth noting that Bill came of age coaching when professional football was not the money train it is today. This isn’t to excuse nepotism in the NFL or to make excuses for Belichick but to some extent it may have been more about a family thing for his father and him – sort of a “family business.” It’s different when you have billions of dollars at stake and a ton of super qualified applicants for each position – and the standards should be higher.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

posts way less than 18% useful shit
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2010
14,598
I'm pretty sure his son is in the NFL solely based on ability and accomplishments.
Sure but he might have had a step up on term of the preparation and coaching he got from his dad--there's some kid out there who was a little faster and athletic than samuel jr but who wasn't taught techniques by an nfl corner and who isn't as good.

One of the tricky things about nepotism in small industries is that the unfair access that the nepo babies have to opportunities and training can make them high level performers. Steve Belichick has had access to one of the top minds in modern football for his entire life; something may have rubbed off on him in a way that actually builds football intelligence, coaching ability, etc.
Yes. But this is not necessarily the only factor. A few years back I worked on a project that involved going through every team's media guide. The Colts employ A.J. Foyt IV as a scouting assistant ... how many A.J. Foyt's can there be? Is he related to the famous race car driver? Yes. How did he get into football? Oh, he's married to Casey Irsay, Jim's daughter.
I sort of thought about posting something along these lines as well. But I think the question is, where do you draw the line between nepotism and privilege? The former is defined as "the practice among those with power or influence of favoring relatives, friends, or associates, especially by giving them jobs" -- left unsaid is whether they are qualified for said position (because, I suppose, it doesn't actually matter).
Didn't want to quote all the responses, so I'll just do these ones.

@Van Everyman makes a really valid point. I'm sure there have been times when Asante Samuel Jr was a benefit of nepotism. I'm also sure that - like many children of professional athletes - he benefited from the privilege he was given. While I'm sure genetics plays a large part, it's hard to argue that the access a person like Archie Manning had is a large reason for the athletic success of his three sons (Cooper was a highly touted prospect that went to a D1 school, but walked away when he was told he had spinal stenosis).

Its fair to draw the line between nepotism and privilege. Its also fair for me to find reasons to poke at Asante Samuel for being an asshole face. So...yeah.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

posts way less than 18% useful shit
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2010
14,598
Exactly how does adding the adjective "douche-y" help you to make your point?

And what evidence do you have that the players on the Princeton team were "douche-y", whatever that means? Rather, what evidence do you have that they were MORE "douche-y" than the players on every other team in the tournament?
Relax over there, Cecil.
 

Mystic Merlin

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 21, 2007
47,724
Hartford, CT
It’ll be positioned as the biggest deal in all of history through AAV puffing using non-guaranteed years, and he will probably get a better deal than Hurts, but it’ll be a less favorable contract than the Watson outlier in terms of total guaranteed money at signing. A tale as old as time.
 

Van Everyman

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2009
27,575
Newton
Feels like the Ravens must have come to Lamar, and told him that they were going to draft a quarterback if he didn’t sign tonight. Assuming the numbers are good for him, and I’m not sure how they would be, it seems like things I’ve worked out pretty well for everyone.
 

MikeM

Member
SoSH Member
May 27, 2010
3,163
Florida
Well the entire ESPN analyst staff can finally stop 100% refusing to acknowledge the fact Lamar is 3 full seasons beyond what looks like the poster definition of an outlier, and put their pitchforks down over the "MVP" not getting his money.

Both parties did good here imo. What looks excessive there now probably ends up being fairly reasonable a year or 2 down the line. But that's the QB market in constant motion these days.
 

johnmd20

mad dog
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 30, 2003
62,284
New York City
Meh, really don't think so. His injuries all ocurred in the pocket, he's generally great at avoiding big hits in the open field.
But it's been a lot of injuries and sicknesses in the last 3 years. Slight running QBs don't have any history of longevity in the NFL.

Even jacked running QBs like Cam Newton didn't have any longevity in the NFL.

You pay Jalen Hurts for 5 years because he's a house. You don't pay Lamar because he's a stringbean.
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
13,018
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
But it's been a lot of injuries and sicknesses in the last 3 years. Slight running QBs don't have any history of longevity in the NFL.

Even jacked running QBs like Cam Newton didn't have any longevity in the NFL.

You pay Jalen Hurts for 5 years because he's a house. You don't pay Lamar because he's a stringbean.
Lamar doesn't take the horrific hits Cam did, is my point. His injuries were lower body and in the pocket, Cam got screwed because his shoulder was pounded into sand. I do agree Lamar has shown signs of at the very least being injury prone and his frame is slight, I'm not saying the injury concerns aren't real, but I wouldn't count on him consistently missing time to the type of injuries that have caused him to lose time.
 

Oil Can Dan

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2003
8,185
0-3 to 4-3
I just don't think Lamar is very good as passing the ball. I'll concede his supporting cast has been lacking, though.
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jun 22, 2008
36,398
Well the entire ESPN analyst staff can finally stop 100% refusing to acknowledge the fact Lamar is 3 full seasons beyond what looks like the poster definition of an outlier, and put their pitchforks down over the "MVP" not getting his money.
Yeah, there’s been a lot of outrage there. It has been tiresome.

I’d rather have Hurts’ next 5 years than Lamar’s next 5, so I don’t think I’m going to like the deal for the Ravens when the details come in, but Baltimore didn’t have an attractive alternative to getting this deal done.
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2005
42,348
Kinda means he's as exposed to them as most other quarterbacks. If he's injured in the pocket, what makes him more of an injury risk than, say, Joe Burrow?
I mean, other than the fact that he has a history of getting injured and Joe Burrow doesn't? Nothing, I guess. Even though Burrow has dropped back in the pocket like 1,200 times in the past 2 years, while Lamar is around 760 or so?

I understand the guy hasn't gotten hurt while running, and avoids the big hit. You can say that about anyone, until they don't. I'm much more comfortable saying a guy like Burrow has a lower potential for injury than Jackson, given how they play. Shoot, Kyler Murray got hurt running last year, and he didn't even get hit.
 

Shelterdog

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 19, 2002
15,375
New York City
So one less time than Lamar with a more severe injury?
If you’re going to put it that way sure.
*I’m also excluding the torn rib cartilage the dislocated finger the mcl in the Super Bowl and the busted wrist in college that causes him to miss time
 

johnmd20

mad dog
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 30, 2003
62,284
New York City
So one less time than Lamar with a more severe injury? Hasn't Lamar only been injured twice (ankle in 2021 and knee in 2022)?
The difference is that Joe Burrow has improved every season he's played.

Lamar has regressed 3 consecutive years after his clear 2019 outlier season. He's also 1-3 in the playoffs, losing multiple times as a favorite. And this year he just sat out the playoff game, ensuring he wouldn't be 1-4.

People laughed at Arizona for paying Murray and Cleveland was rightfully excoriated for that absurd Watson trade and contract and a while back, people rightfully mocked the Flacco contract.(at least he won a SB) But for some reason, you can't say anything about Lamar because there was that one racist idiot who said Lamar couldn't play QB in the NFL. He can obviously play QB in the NFL. Should he be the highest paid QB in the NFL? Hard no.

The biggest advantage in sports is having a great QB on a rookie contract. The biggest disadvantage is paying a decent QB too much money. You pay Mahomes. You pay Hurts. You don't pay Lamar.

We'll see. But this one has disaster written all over it.
 

Rudy's Curve

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2006
2,352
Seriously. Other than the one acl/mcl tear how many times has Burrow been injured in the NFL?
He was hurt on the last drive of the regular season game against the Chiefs in '21, but he probably only came out since the only things required from that point were a kneel and a spike. He also sprained his MCL in the Super Bowl. Of course, these were behind horrific OLs with a pass-happy scheme. I don't think he's particularly injury prone.
 

Shelterdog

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 19, 2002
15,375
New York City
He was hurt on the last drive of the regular season game against the Chiefs in '21, but he probably only came out since the only things required from that point were a kneel and a spike. He also sprained his MCL in the Super Bowl. Of course, these were behind horrific OLs with a pass-happy scheme. I don't think he's particularly injury prone.
Neither do I but there is a what did the Romans do for us element when someone says haas Joe Cool
Ever been injured
 

ManicCompression

Member
SoSH Member
May 14, 2015
1,464
I'm not quite understanding the people in the media saying "See? He didn't need an agent". This is nonsense for a few reasons:

- We have no idea what an agent would have negotiated - they certainly could have gotten more; he only got $6 million more guaranteed than Jalen Hurts despite having a longer track record and not being all that old
- Not only could they have gotten more, they could have likely gotten it earlier and the time value of money at this scale would certainly be worth more than 3% of his guaranteed money
- They could have done all of this and not forced Lamar and his mom to carry the stress of actually negotiating anything, which alone should be worth something (this is why people hire accountants and financial advisors and real estate agents - they do in fact provide a service that is worthwhile in areas that are typically confusing

In hindsight, this all seems like a total waste of time and money for him in the grand scheme of things.
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
13,018
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
The difference is that Joe Burrow has improved every season he's played.

Lamar has regressed 3 consecutive years after his clear 2019 outlier season. He's also 1-3 in the playoffs, losing multiple times as a favorite. And this year he just sat out the playoff game, ensuring he wouldn't be 1-4.

People laughed at Arizona for paying Murray and Cleveland was rightfully excoriated for that absurd Watson trade and contract and a while back, people rightfully mocked the Flacco contract.(at least he won a SB) But for some reason, you can't say anything about Lamar because there was that one racist idiot who said Lamar couldn't play QB in the NFL. He can obviously play QB in the NFL. Should he be the highest paid QB in the NFL? Hard no.

The biggest advantage in sports is having a great QB on a rookie contract. The biggest disadvantage is paying a decent QB too much money. You pay Mahomes. You pay Hurts. You don't pay Lamar.

We'll see. But this one has disaster written all over it.
I mean, I thought we were talking injuries here. And yeah, he should be the highest paid QB in the league because he's a very good QB whose contract was up and that's how it works. He won't be in that position for long.
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2005
42,348
Seriously. Other than the one acl/mcl tear how many times has Burrow been injured in the NFL?
Definitely blanked on the ACL tear, prob cuz he missed 6 useless games, and was back starting on opening day 9 months later.

You guys know who else blew out a knee. It was back in 2008, and he missed the entire season. Does anyone want to make the argument that Tom Brady was always more likely to get injured than someone with Lamars game?

Yeah, I whiffed and forgot about the ACL. Unless someone wants to write, "Joe Burrow is more likely to get injured Tham Lamar," I am not sure what we are talking about. I mean, decades of NFL history show running QBs have a way longer career and less injuries than pocket QBs, right?
 

johnmd20

mad dog
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 30, 2003
62,284
New York City
Definitely blanked on the ACL tear, prob cuz he missed 6 useless games, and was back starting on opening day 9 months later.

You guys know who else blew out a knee. It was back in 2008, and he missed the entire season. Does anyone want to make the argument that Tom Brady was always more likely to get injured than someone with Lamars game?

Yeah, I whiffed and forgot about the ACL. Unless someone wants to write, "Joe Burrow is more likely to get injured Tham Lamar," I am not sure what we are talking about. I mean, decades of NFL history show running QBs have a way longer career and less injuries than pocket QBs, right?
I wrote this upthread but I'll say it again. Joe Burrow has improved every year he's been in the NFL. He has 5 playoff wins. The Bengals in their history have won 10, so Burrow in two years has won as many as the franchise has won in previous FIFTY years. He has more playoff wins than Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, Matthew Stafford, Dak Prescott, Deshaun Watson, and Jalen Hurts.

I know playoff wins aren't just a QB stat. But as many wins in 2 years as the previous 50 is meaningful. And his only two losses occurred due to pretty tough refball calls on the defense very late in the games.

Lamar Jackson had his best year in 2019, his 2nd best year in 2020, his 3rd best year in 2021, and 4th best year in 2022. He's going backwards, each year worse than the last. That, coupled with the injury issues, is the problem. He's getting worse and his game style isn't a long term one.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
35,518
I wrote this upthread but I'll say it again. Joe Burrow has improved every year he's been in the NFL. He has 5 playoff wins. The Bengals in their history have won 10, so Burrow in two years has won as many as the franchise has won in previous FIFTY years. He has more playoff wins than Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, Matthew Stafford, Dak Prescott, Deshaun Watson, and Jalen Hurts.

I know playoff wins aren't just a QB stat. But as many wins in 2 years as the previous 50 is meaningful. And his only two losses occurred due to pretty tough refball calls on the defense very late in the games.

Lamar Jackson had his best year in 2019, his 2nd best year in 2020, his 3rd best year in 2021, and 4th best year in 2022. He's going backwards, each year worse than the last. That, coupled with the injury issues, is the problem. He's getting worse and his game style isn't a long term one.
I think most would say last year was better than 2021. But yeah there is some truth to this.

If I were playing Devil's advocate though, I would say:
Burrow has gotten better every year in part because his team has significantly improved the talent around him, a reason both his performance has been better (he has 2 WRs better than anyone Lamar has played with, his line is significantly improved, etc.) and he's had fewer injuries.
On the flip side, BAL has bled talent between losses and injuries to the point where they have one of the worst groups in the league, which has impacted Lamar's performance, and contributed to his in the pocket hits and injuries. I mean for most of last year they were trotting out DeMarcus Robinson and Devin Duvernay as their top 2 WRs, Kenyan Drake at RB 1, it was ugly out there.
 

johnmd20

mad dog
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 30, 2003
62,284
New York City
I think most would say last year was better than 2021. But yeah there is some truth to this.

If I were playing Devil's advocate though, I would say:
Burrow has gotten better every year in part because his team has significantly improved the talent around him, a reason both his performance has been better (he has 2 WRs better than anyone Lamar has played with, his line is significantly improved, etc.) and he's had fewer injuries.
On the flip side, BAL has bled talent between losses and injuries to the point where they have one of the worst groups in the league, which has impacted Lamar's performance, and contributed to his in the pocket hits and injuries. I mean for most of last year they were trotting out DeMarcus Robinson and Devin Duvernay as their top 2 WRs, Kenyan Drake at RB 1, it was ugly out there.
Oh, it was ugly. Baltimore's offensive weapons on the receiving end were atrocious. Patriot-esque.

Then again, Burrow in 2021 was playing behind a line that actively avoided blocking. That team made the Super Bowl. Last year, Daniel Jones had an unequivocally woeful receiving corps just like Baltimore and somehow dragged his team to a playoff win. While not missing any games.

Lamar just sat for the final 1/3 of the season, the entire time the team continually saying he would be back the next week. It was a weird situation and it did seem like Lamar was sitting in a huff because he didn't get a contract. Now that he's got one, I guess he needs to start producing like 2019.

It'll be fun to watch no matter what. A team definitely wants Lamar as their QB, he's excellent. But he's just not "highest paid player in the NFL" excellent.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
35,518
Oh, it was ugly. Baltimore's offensive weapons on the receiving end were atrocious. Patriot-esque.

Then again, Burrow in 2021 was playing behind a line that actively avoided blocking. That team made the Super Bowl. Last year, Daniel Jones had an unequivocally woeful receiving corps just like Baltimore and somehow dragged his team to a playoff win. While not missing any games.

Lamar just sat for the final 1/3 of the season, the entire time the team continually saying he would be back the next week. It was a weird situation and it did seem like Lamar was sitting in a huff because he didn't get a contract. Now that he's got one, I guess he needs to start producing like 2019.

It'll be fun to watch no matter what. A team definitely wants Lamar as their QB, he's excellent. But he's just not "highest paid player in the NFL" excellent.
Well he's not really the highest paid player anyway (Guarantees are all that matter, it's still Watson) but "highest paid" almost always just means "top 20 QB who most recently got a deal" he took over from Hurts, who certainly doesn't have the track record to support it either. That's just how QB is, Burrow will be "highest paid" soon.
 

Shelterdog

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 19, 2002
15,375
New York City
Definitely blanked on the ACL tear, prob cuz he missed 6 useless games, and was back starting on opening day 9 months later.

You guys know who else blew out a knee. It was back in 2008, and he missed the entire season. Does anyone want to make the argument that Tom Brady was always more likely to get injured than someone with Lamars game?

Yeah, I whiffed and forgot about the ACL. Unless someone wants to write, "Joe Burrow is more likely to get injured Tham Lamar," I am not sure what we are talking about. I mean, decades of NFL history show running QBs have a way longer career and less injuries than pocket QBs, right?
Sure, not surprising that you forgot about the injury, only people who the league closely would remember.
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2005
42,348
Sure, not surprising that you forgot about the injury, only people who the league closely would remember.
Still waiting. Write the words "Lamar Jackson is less likely to be injured than Joe Burrow."

Because if that's not the argument you're making, then I have no fucking idea what you're doing except to call it a mistake I admitted to making.

In which case, go fuck yourself.
 

Shelterdog

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 19, 2002
15,375
New York City
Still waiting. Write the words "Lamar Jackson is less likely to be injured than Joe Burrow."

Because if that's not the argument you're making, then I have no fucking idea what you're doing except to call it a mistake I admitted to making.

In which case, go fuck yourself.
Nobody knows which player is more likely to be injured-and the answer in part is going to depend on whether Burrow continue to take so many gnarly hits in the pocket. It’s also a useful question. The question that does matter is is does the injury risk to Lamar make his contract a bad one. I’d submit it does not because he hasn’t been hurt that much and he’s really fucking good-but thst as a running QB there’s, separate from injury risk, pretty good chance that contract is an overpay in years four and five because he’s going to lose mobility as he ages.
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2005
42,348
Nobody knows which player is more likely to be injured-and the answer in part is going to depend on whether Burrow continue to take so many gnarly hits in the pocket. It’s also a useful question. The question that does matter is is does the injury risk to Lamar make his contract a bad one. I’d submit it does not because he hasn’t been hurt that much and he’s really fucking good-but thst as a running QB there’s, separate from injury risk, pretty good chance that contract is an overpay in years four and five because he’s going to lose mobility as he ages.
I agree with that. I think Lamars contract is right in line with what he deserves. I dont think he deserved a fully guaranteed deal, like he was asking, because I think that's insane, even putting aside the injury history.

I am however glad it's not the Pats that paid him, even though I believe it's a fair deal.