2023 PGA Tour

jercra

No longer respects DeChambeau
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
3,162
Arvada, Co
Let's be honest. Outside of Majors and some of the signature events, the PGA tour calendar is too full leading to some pretty boring events. What would be the harm in scheduling these alternate events with a different and slightly interesting format instead of the John Deere Classic for example?
Do you think many more people would watch a best-ball event, for example (check the Zurich for answers). Would the players get OWGR points for these alternate format events? Would the top players show up these types of events? Does the event host want to risk a different format? If not, do you just sell it at a lower cost and lower the purses and charitable donations? Does that decrease the cost of hospitality? Does the TV contract specify a certain number of events of certain formats? Do LIV's ratings show that different and interesting formats don't drive ratings and maybe even harm them?

That's a really short list of some risks of replacing something like the John Deere with some unspecified but "different" format. This stuff is vastly more complicated than it seems on the surface.
 

grsharky7

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
1,256
Berlin, PA
I don't think this is really about growing LIV. Nobody watches LIV, nobody buys tickets. This isn't going change that. It didn't when Cam Smith left either. To me, this is a negotiation tactic from PIF. I don't think the PIF's end game is taking over the men's professional golf landscape, I think they want a seat at the PGA Tour table with all the business connections that come with it. The PIF and Tour reached a framework agreement in June with the goal of a formal agreement being negotiated by 12/31/23. Originally there was a no-poach clause in the agreement but they had to drop it due to DOJ scrutiny. Along the way the PGA Tour players expressed outrage at the agreement and the Tour started talking to other equity funds about investment. Now we are less than a month away from this deadline and PIF/LIV poaches the 2nd biggest star from the PGA Tour. That reads to me like a leverage play.

Rahm wins because he gets paid. Maybe he thinks an agreement between the two sides is likely and worst case scenario for him is a year or two on LIV, while he's got all is major exemptions, before he can re-join the tour. I'm bummed but I don't begrudge him.

The fans are the loser. The PGA Tour product is already bad and now they just arguably the 2nd biggest star (excluding Tiger) so it's only going to get worse. I'm a die hard golf fan and I have no interest or desire to seek out and watch LIV and this isn't going to change that. I'm kind of in the "don't give a shit anymore" stage. I'm sick of the boardroom drama, I just want to turn the TV on and watch the best players in the world play golf and it seems like those opportunities are dwindling.
Oh I know the whole "growing the game" schtick was BS and nobody believed it. I guess as top athletes you would think these guys would want to play in front of massive galleries and millions of people on tv,. Instead they're playing at Bedminster in front of Tucker Carlson and on the CW after Reba or something. I'm sure going to bed on piles of money softens the blow, but guys like Rahm and Phil had more money than God any how.

This whole thing is just a bummer because its ruining professional golf for the fans. Most of us will only see Rahm and Cam Smith 4 times a year now at the majors and the fields for the better PGA tournaments are going to be diminished. In a rapidly changing sports landscape I always thought golf would be the one that would stay the same because the game is so rooted in tradition, but alas even that has succumbed to big money interests.
 

cshea

Member
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Nov 15, 2006
36,623
306, row 14
Oh I know the whole "growing the game" schtick was BS and nobody believed it. I guess as top athletes you would think these guys would want to play in front of massive galleries and millions of people on tv,. Instead they're playing at Bedminster in front of Tucker Carlson and on the CW after Reba or something. I'm sure going to bed on piles of money softens the blow, but guys like Rahm and Phil had more money than God any how.

This whole thing is just a bummer because its ruining professional golf for the fans. Most of us will only see Rahm and Cam Smith 4 times a year now at the majors and the fields for the better PGA tournaments are going to be diminished. In a rapidly changing sports landscape I always thought golf would be the one that would stay the same because the game is so rooted in tradition, but alas even that has succumbed to big money interests.
They still get the massive galleries and spotlight 4 times a year at the majors. I know the money is all relative and he already was set for life and then some but Rahm's career PGA Tour earnings were $51 million and his LIV deal is reportedly $300 million on the low end so it's not even close.

It sounds like Finau and Hatton are next to go. One would assume Cantlay and Xander would be all over this, but then there's stories that Cantlay has consolodated power on Tour and he, Tiger and Spieth have seized the power vacuum vacated by Rory in the boardroom and are shaping it in the best interest of the elite/star players. The Tour had a bizare announcement on Sunday that statyed they are advancing in negotiations with PIF and also negotiating with the Strategic Sports Group (a consortium of investers that includes Henry, Werner, FSG and Wyc Grousbeck among others). So who knows, the original deadline with PIF was 12/31. Supposedly Monahan and Yasir are meeting again this week. On the other end of the spectrum, there is a mule uprising as the Tour rank-and-file have submitted a petition saying the new structure is unfair to them.

In short it's a clusterfuck and ultimately hurting the game because fans are sick of it.
 

TheGazelle

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 17, 2009
1,257
They still get the massive galleries and spotlight 4 times a year at the majors. I know the money is all relative and he already was set for life and then some but Rahm's career PGA Tour earnings were $51 million and his LIV deal is reportedly $300 million on the low end so it's not even close.

It sounds like Finau and Hatton are next to go. One would assume Cantlay and Xander would be all over this, but then there's stories that Cantlay has consolodated power on Tour and he, Tiger and Spieth have seized the power vacuum vacated by Rory in the boardroom and are shaping it in the best interest of the elite/star players. The Tour had a bizare announcement on Sunday that statyed they are advancing in negotiations with PIF and also negotiating with the Strategic Sports Group (a consortium of investers that includes Henry, Werner, FSG and Wyc Grousbeck among others). So who knows, the original deadline with PIF was 12/31. Supposedly Monahan and Yasir are meeting again this week. On the other end of the spectrum, there is a mule uprising as the Tour rank-and-file have submitted a petition saying the new structure is unfair to them.

In short it's a clusterfuck and ultimately hurting the game because fans are sick of it.
Finau says he's staying in the PGA tour.

https://golf.com/news/tony-finau-liv-rumors-squashed-jon-rahm/
 

grsharky7

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
1,256
Berlin, PA
They still get the massive galleries and spotlight 4 times a year at the majors. I know the money is all relative and he already was set for life and then some but Rahm's career PGA Tour earnings were $51 million and his LIV deal is reportedly $300 million on the low end so it's not even close.

It sounds like Finau and Hatton are next to go. One would assume Cantlay and Xander would be all over this, but then there's stories that Cantlay has consolodated power on Tour and he, Tiger and Spieth have seized the power vacuum vacated by Rory in the boardroom and are shaping it in the best interest of the elite/star players. The Tour had a bizare announcement on Sunday that statyed they are advancing in negotiations with PIF and also negotiating with the Strategic Sports Group (a consortium of investers that includes Henry, Werner, FSG and Wyc Grousbeck among others). So who knows, the original deadline with PIF was 12/31. Supposedly Monahan and Yasir are meeting again this week. On the other end of the spectrum, there is a mule uprising as the Tour rank-and-file have submitted a petition saying the new structure is unfair to them.

In short it's a clusterfuck and ultimately hurting the game because fans are sick of it.
Yeah this just sucks for the fans and I feel like it will be a huge turnoff for fans here in the states. People aren't going to go searching for LIV on tv and people will get tired of a watered down PGA. I'm a big golf fan and I'm already set to tune out other than the majors.
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
31,100
This all seems reminiscent of the CART/USAC/IRL fight that did little more than cause open-wheel racing to drop out of whatever level of consciousness it occupied in the US. Since people actually play golf, pro golf on TV probably will not fall as far, but those who ignore history, etc., etc.
 

voidfunkt

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 14, 2006
1,483
/dev/null
I'm a big golf fan and I'm already set to tune out other than the majors.
Kind of the problem but besides The Majors, The Players, and Waste Management... professional golf on TV kind of sucks. The best thing about watching pro golf on TV is playoffs and watching someone choke... that's just bad TV if the only compelling reason to watch is occasional train wrecks and 30 minutes at the end of a four hour broadcast.

Also nobody wants to watch the bottom 120 men, they're basically AAA talent compared to the top-30. The low-level tour pro's can go pound sand. Nobody is tuning in to watch Carl Yuan or Hudson Swafford. Nor are sponsors lining up to write big checks for those guys.
 

TheGazelle

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 17, 2009
1,257
Kind of the problem but besides The Majors, The Players, and Waste Management... professional golf on TV kind of sucks. The best thing about watching pro golf on TV is playoffs and watching someone choke... that's just bad TV if the only compelling reason to watch is occasional train wrecks and 30 minutes at the end of a four hour broadcast.

Also nobody wants to watch the bottom 120 men, they're basically AAA talent compared to the top-30. The low-level tour pro's can go pound sand. Nobody is tuning in to watch Carl Yuan or Hudson Swafford. Nor are sponsors lining up to write big checks for those guys.
Yeah, I love to play golf (terribly) but watching golf is a different thing. I'll obviously fire up the majors and a few other big events, but the week-to-week stuff I don't really watch. At most if I am channel surfing I may stop and watch 15 minutes because, even if it's guys (or gals) I've never heard of, they are still 10000% better than me and it's fun. But actually watching hours of a broadcast? No chance. I had thought a bunch of the LIV changes -- shotgun start, team aspect, etc. -- were designed to increase TV interest because it's faster and even guys who aren't in the individual hunt can still contribute, but the little I've watched is confusing.
 

grsharky7

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
1,256
Berlin, PA
Kind of the problem but besides The Majors, The Players, and Waste Management... professional golf on TV kind of sucks. The best thing about watching pro golf on TV is playoffs and watching someone choke... that's just bad TV if the only compelling reason to watch is occasional train wrecks and 30 minutes at the end of a four hour broadcast.

Also nobody wants to watch the bottom 120 men, they're basically AAA talent compared to the top-30. The low-level tour pro's can go pound sand. Nobody is tuning in to watch Carl Yuan or Hudson Swafford. Nor are sponsors lining up to write big checks for those guys.
You're right, and even I don't watch events like the John Deere and small of the stops that have nobody of note. The drama over who's in or out just sucks the fun out of the good tour stops because the fields are going to be watered down. Watered down fields will equal less money for the PGA guys, all of that progress they made due to Tiger in the late 90's-early 2000's could start to backtrack a bit.
 

cshea

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 15, 2006
36,623
306, row 14
I think part of the problem is the Tour never innovated. The TV product is bad. The TV window is too big, overloaded with commercials and is poorly producted.

LIV tried some innovation but it's hard to get a read on whether some of what they do (shotgun start) would work in a normal Tour setting. I think the biggest problem for LIV is they never got a real network deal. I think there's a bunch of golf fans who just tune in to CBS/NBC at 4:00 on Sunday to watch the last couple of holes and don't really care too much who is playing. I think if you swapped out the PGA Tour for LIV in the same timeslot on CBS/NBC Sunday they'd probably have similar ratings.
 
Kind of the problem but besides The Majors, The Players, and Waste Management... professional golf on TV kind of sucks. The best thing about watching pro golf on TV is playoffs and watching someone choke... that's just bad TV if the only compelling reason to watch is occasional train wrecks and 30 minutes at the end of a four hour broadcast.

Also nobody wants to watch the bottom 120 men, they're basically AAA talent compared to the top-30. The low-level tour pro's can go pound sand. Nobody is tuning in to watch Carl Yuan or Hudson Swafford. Nor are sponsors lining up to write big checks for those guys.
I love watching golf - especially final round golf - on the PGA Tour. Even more especially on a good course with a lot of history, and/or when there are one or more compelling stories on the leaderboard. It helps that Sky Sports always has a lighter commercial load here in the UK than NBC and CBS do in the States, but even then, there are those of us who love watching the pros duel at Riviera or Muirfield Village or Harbour Town or Colonial. These events have been running for decades - some for more than half a century - and the history does matter. (Your selection of the Waste Management is a bit of a tell to me that you don't care about the history and that you need a gimmick to remain interested; that's not the case for all of us.)

LIV sucks for many, many reasons, but one of the biggest is that there is no history, and very few of the courses - maybe Valderrama, and possibly Doral? - resonate in any meaningful way at all.
 

kenneycb

Hates Goose Island Beer; Loves Backdoor Play
SoSH Member
Dec 2, 2006
16,260
Tuukka's refugee camp
I love watching golf - especially final round golf - on the PGA Tour. Even more especially on a good course with a lot of history, and/or when there are one or more compelling stories on the leaderboard. It helps that Sky Sports always has a lighter commercial load here in the UK than NBC and CBS do in the States, but even then, there are those of us who love watching the pros duel at Riviera or Muirfield Village or Harbour Town or Colonial. These events have been running for decades - some for more than half a century - and the history does matter. (Your selection of the Waste Management is a bit of a tell to me that you don't care about the history and that you need a gimmick to remain interested; that's not the case for all of us.)

LIV sucks for many, many reasons, but one of the biggest is that there is no history, and very few of the courses - maybe Valderrama, and possibly Doral? - resonate in any meaningful way at all.
What an insufferable sentence with a lot of assumptions. Most annoying type of golf fan.
 

TFP

Moderator
Moderator
SoSH Member
Dec 10, 2007
20,400
The Waste Management/Phoenix Open has been an event since 1932 and at TPC for 36 years. It’s also one of the very few events on tour with an actual pulse. Give me a break calling it a gimmick.
 

voidfunkt

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 14, 2006
1,483
/dev/null
Your selection of the Waste Management is a bit of a tell to me that you don't care about the history and that you need a gimmick to remain interested; that's not the case for all of us.
Incredibly pretentious and shitty take that you can shove up your ass.

In fact I'd say one of the problems is they don't have enough Waste Managements
The WM is fun because it's an absurd spectacle... not sure it would be nearly as interesting if it was more common atmosphere... but maybe. I think LIV wanted to be like the WM but it failed miserable at that.

LIV tried some innovation
Agree, but most of it has flopped. They were going for something Waste Management-like and it's just not. I went to the event in Massachusetts and it was terrible.

I think in the era of online sports betting golf needs to bring in more big money match play and skins matches. Relegate stroke play to the majors, The Players, WM, and Tour Championship. Ditch the bottom 120 professional golfers - they're just wasting space.

I'd also like to see some more mixing in of the LPGA women somehow with alternate shots.
 
Not that I give a damn what anyone else here thinks - my golf takes are rarely aligned with anyone else on SoSH, and every time I post in this thread, I wonder soon afterwards why I've bothered - but I was only responding to what others had just written. Three people posted why they don't watch golf on TV most weeks, and I responed to say why I do. And really...
The Waste Management/Phoenix Open has been an event since 1932 and at TPC for 36 years. It’s also one of the very few events on tour with an actual pulse. Give me a break calling it a gimmick.
...do you think anyone who doesn't watch golf most weeks but does enjoy the WM does so because "has been an event since 1932 and at TPC for 36 years"? Please. It's totally cool that people like it - and I myself like it too as a change of pace. But c'mon.

Back down my rabbit hole...sigh.
 

voidfunkt

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 14, 2006
1,483
/dev/null
Not that I give a damn what anyone else here thinks - my golf takes are rarely aligned with anyone else on SoSH, and every time I post in this thread, I wonder soon afterwards why I've bothered - but I was only responding to what others had just written. Three people posted why they don't watch golf on TV most weeks, and I responed to say why I do. And really...
If you had finished your post before the final parentheses there would be no problem. You decided to make a pretentious comment and got called on it. Now you're trying to play it off like you're being persecuted.
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
31,100
I'll still watch the PGA on Sunday afternoon in Jan and Feb. if its close on the back 9, pretty much regardless of event or players. The "human drama of athletic competition" and all that. But I'm also usually rooting for the course. The PGA history makes that easier, as I've seen tournaments on the California and Florida legs - on many of the same courses - for most of my adult life. So even if its Colt Hardcock and Stuffy McStuffin IV battling down the stretch, I still recognize Riviera or Pebble Beach.
 
If you had finished your post before the final parentheses there would be no problem. You decided to make a pretentious comment and got called on it. Now you're trying to play it off like you're being persecuted.
I don't feel persecuted. I do feel like my takes are so entirely different from everyone else's here that there's absolutely no point in getting involved in the discussion. (I'm more annoyed at myself for forgetting this than I am at any of you, to be honest.)
 

Comfortably Lomb

Koko the Monkey
SoSH Member
Feb 22, 2004
13,140
The Paris of the 80s
You're right, and even I don't watch events like the John Deere and small of the stops that have nobody of note. The drama over who's in or out just sucks the fun out of the good tour stops because the fields are going to be watered down. Watered down fields will equal less money for the PGA guys, all of that progress they made due to Tiger in the late 90's-early 2000's could start to backtrack a bit.
I don't know that the Tour made actual progress since the late 90s. The Tour had Tiger, a top shelf international superstar athlete, maybe a once in a lifetime one at that for the sport, who alone managed to turn golf from sort of sleepy niche viewership to prestige coverage in the sports media. Huge sponsorship and advertising money followed. Now that the Tiger era has passed maybe it's impossible for it to maintain its status in the sporting world if he's not in the field 15-20 times a year.
 

kenneycb

Hates Goose Island Beer; Loves Backdoor Play
SoSH Member
Dec 2, 2006
16,260
Tuukka's refugee camp
I don't feel persecuted. I do feel like my takes are so entirely different from everyone else's here that there's absolutely no point in getting involved in the discussion. (I'm more annoyed at myself for forgetting this than I am at any of you, to be honest.)
Why do you feel that way? You’re persecuting yourself again but not explaining your point outside of saying “I like history and tradition but you all don’t so I’m a better golf fan than you.” Which the parentheses and follow comments clearly imply.

I think I disagree with your point but it’s hard to dispute when you’re so vague as to why that’s so important when others are giving actual reason for why they like non-traditional golf.
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2005
42,334
I love watching golf - especially final round golf - on the PGA Tour. Even more especially on a good course with a lot of history, and/or when there are one or more compelling stories on the leaderboard. It helps that Sky Sports always has a lighter commercial load here in the UK than NBC and CBS do in the States, but even then, there are those of us who love watching the pros duel at Riviera or Muirfield Village or Harbour Town or Colonial. These events have been running for decades - some for more than half a century - and the history does matter. (Your selection of the Waste Management is a bit of a tell to me that you don't care about the history and that you need a gimmick to remain interested; that's not the case for all of us.)

LIV sucks for many, many reasons, but one of the biggest is that there is no history, and very few of the courses - maybe Valderrama, and possibly Doral? - resonate in any meaningful way at all.
With the exception of the paranthetical which wasn't really necessary, I agree with you completely.

I love golf, love watching, love the PGA Tour, love the history, love the stories and the traditions and the courses they play. A lot of that probably has to do with Rob O. as many here have followed for like 15 years now, so learning about the Nationwide/Web MD/Korn Ferry Tour stories is pretty fucking awesome. The only time I'll truly tune out of an event on a Sunday is when someone (non Rory/Tiger division) is lapping the field, so there's little drama to watch. But even in those, if there's some fringe dude trying to keep his card battling for a top 5-10, that shit is some of the most interesting and stressful shit you'll watch in sports.

I think things like the documentary "Full Swing" is what the PGA Tour needs more of, but instead of focusing on the Spieth/JT's of the world, more of the Joel Dahmen stuff, more of the guys without the private jets fighting and clawing their way to paychecks every week, more about the guys who are driving across the country because its cheaper, trying to qualify on a Monday. They need to figure out a way to bring those stories to the masses.

When some guy shows up after driving an Amazon truck and does something on an NFL field, the NFL makes sure you know about it. The PGA Tour needs to spend a bit less time focusing on the stars we all know and give us some information on the guys we don't. Give people at home a reason to root for guys, and I think Full Swing was a great introduction to guys like FInau and Dahmen, etc.

Couple all of that with the history, and the golf courses and what literally one tour win can mean to a guy, bring that shit on.

And fuck LIV. Fuck all of the guys taking the money and running. Jon Rahm just got 300mil or whatever. Dude was probably clearing 20mil in endorsements and purses and if he wanted to, I'm sure he could have gotten more. He literally just got an equity stake in TopGolf Callaway on his last deal, so if these guys want more time at home with their families or whatever the fuck their bullshit reasons are that they claim isn't about money, go for it, but IMO, none of these fuckers should be allowed anywhere near a PGA event ever again. At least Ian Poulter has the balls to admit he took the money because he knew he couldn't compete, but guys like Koepka, DJ, Rahm, Cam Smith, I've already forgotten about them and will root against them every time they're on my television going forward. The fact I almost never hear about Bryson or Patrick Reed anymore is pretty much the only reason I like LIV.

Spieth/JT/Rory/Morikawa/Fitpatrick/Scheffler/Fowler and on and on and on...There's plenty of great golfers left on the PGA, and th. ere will be more coming in every year. These guys can all Scrooge McFuck themselves
 

Mooch

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
4,716
As someone who typically watched only majors and the big/fun tour events like Waste Management and The Players, I will say that being in the SOSH fantasy league increased my interest in week to week events tenfold. I’ve made this suggestion before but I think the tour should embrace and promote gambling, including allowing the players to have on course bets and being on mic to talk trash to each other.
 

TheGazelle

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 17, 2009
1,257
With the exception of the paranthetical which wasn't really necessary, I agree with you completely.

I love golf, love watching, love the PGA Tour, love the history, love the stories and the traditions and the courses they play. A lot of that probably has to do with Rob O. as many here have followed for like 15 years now, so learning about the Nationwide/Web MD/Korn Ferry Tour stories is pretty fucking awesome. The only time I'll truly tune out of an event on a Sunday is when someone (non Rory/Tiger division) is lapping the field, so there's little drama to watch. But even in those, if there's some fringe dude trying to keep his card battling for a top 5-10, that shit is some of the most interesting and stressful shit you'll watch in sports.

I think things like the documentary "Full Swing" is what the PGA Tour needs more of, but instead of focusing on the Spieth/JT's of the world, more of the Joel Dahmen stuff, more of the guys without the private jets fighting and clawing their way to paychecks every week, more about the guys who are driving across the country because its cheaper, trying to qualify on a Monday. They need to figure out a way to bring those stories to the masses.

When some guy shows up after driving an Amazon truck and does something on an NFL field, the NFL makes sure you know about it. The PGA Tour needs to spend a bit less time focusing on the stars we all know and give us some information on the guys we don't. Give people at home a reason to root for guys, and I think Full Swing was a great introduction to guys like FInau and Dahmen, etc.


Couple all of that with the history, and the golf courses and what literally one tour win can mean to a guy, bring that shit on.

And fuck LIV. Fuck all of the guys taking the money and running. Jon Rahm just got 300mil or whatever. Dude was probably clearing 20mil in endorsements and purses and if he wanted to, I'm sure he could have gotten more. He literally just got an equity stake in TopGolf Callaway on his last deal, so if these guys want more time at home with their families or whatever the fuck their bullshit reasons are that they claim isn't about money, go for it, but IMO, none of these fuckers should be allowed anywhere near a PGA event ever again. At least Ian Poulter has the balls to admit he took the money because he knew he couldn't compete, but guys like Koepka, DJ, Rahm, Cam Smith, I've already forgotten about them and will root against them every time they're on my television going forward. The fact I almost never hear about Bryson or Patrick Reed anymore is pretty much the only reason I like LIV.

Spieth/JT/Rory/Morikawa/Fitpatrick/Scheffler/Fowler and on and on and on...There's plenty of great golfers left on the PGA, and th. ere will be more coming in every year. These guys can all Scrooge McFuck themselves
This is a good point. When we were visiting my in-laws in FL last year, their course hosted the Monday qualifier for the Honda Classic. You had a few hundred guys there. We spent some time on Sunday (practice round) and Monday watching/talking to them, and it was incredibly interesting hearing their stories. It was also cool because one of the Monday qualifiers played really well and ended up fourth, so we something to root for on the weekend. I believe that dude had just graduated college and was fighting for his card, but I don't think we would have really known that but for the qualifier.
 

bostonbeerbelly

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 26, 2008
2,244
San Fran
With the exception of the paranthetical which wasn't really necessary, I agree with you completely.

I love golf, love watching, love the PGA Tour, love the history, love the stories and the traditions and the courses they play. A lot of that probably has to do with Rob O. as many here have followed for like 15 years now, so learning about the Nationwide/Web MD/Korn Ferry Tour stories is pretty fucking awesome. The only time I'll truly tune out of an event on a Sunday is when someone (non Rory/Tiger division) is lapping the field, so there's little drama to watch. But even in those, if there's some fringe dude trying to keep his card battling for a top 5-10, that shit is some of the most interesting and stressful shit you'll watch in sports.

I think things like the documentary "Full Swing" is what the PGA Tour needs more of, but instead of focusing on the Spieth/JT's of the world, more of the Joel Dahmen stuff, more of the guys without the private jets fighting and clawing their way to paychecks every week, more about the guys who are driving across the country because its cheaper, trying to qualify on a Monday. They need to figure out a way to bring those stories to the masses.

When some guy shows up after driving an Amazon truck and does something on an NFL field, the NFL makes sure you know about it. The PGA Tour needs to spend a bit less time focusing on the stars we all know and give us some information on the guys we don't. Give people at home a reason to root for guys, and I think Full Swing was a great introduction to guys like FInau and Dahmen, etc.

Couple all of that with the history, and the golf courses and what literally one tour win can mean to a guy, bring that shit on.

And fuck LIV. Fuck all of the guys taking the money and running. Jon Rahm just got 300mil or whatever. Dude was probably clearing 20mil in endorsements and purses and if he wanted to, I'm sure he could have gotten more. He literally just got an equity stake in TopGolf Callaway on his last deal, so if these guys want more time at home with their families or whatever the fuck their bullshit reasons are that they claim isn't about money, go for it, but IMO, none of these fuckers should be allowed anywhere near a PGA event ever again. At least Ian Poulter has the balls to admit he took the money because he knew he couldn't compete, but guys like Koepka, DJ, Rahm, Cam Smith, I've already forgotten about them and will root against them every time they're on my television going forward. The fact I almost never hear about Bryson or Patrick Reed anymore is pretty much the only reason I like LIV.

Spieth/JT/Rory/Morikawa/Fitpatrick/Scheffler/Fowler and on and on and on...There's plenty of great golfers left on the PGA, and th. ere will be more coming in every year. These guys can all Scrooge McFuck themselves
This is 10000% exactly how I feel about golf. I have followed Rob O - for what is probably the better part of a decade. Caring about someone I don't know and every last putt of a korn ferry playoff event. I hate LIV with almost equal amount of passion as I love the tour. As a sosh fantasy golf member, I have loved rooting for the 80-160 ranked guys and watching the underdog pull out an incredible season. Watching the rookies grind out their first season after getting their card from the KF tour.

Do better PGA and I will not pay any attention to LIV.
 

Comfortably Lomb

Koko the Monkey
SoSH Member
Feb 22, 2004
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The Paris of the 80s
I'm not sure what people expect from the PGA Tour. They're in a brutal position. Right now LIV is basically just a menagerie assembled with relatively limitless funds and zero commercial viability. Hundreds of millions are being given to individual players essentially to not play professional golf for a chunk of the year. Maybe their "plan" is just to poach as much talent as possible, destabilize and effectively murder the PGA Tour, and survey the landscape following its destruction.

This all just seems to boil down to all professional sports are ruined for fans once the money gets too good.
 

TheGazelle

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I'm not sure what people expect from the PGA Tour. They're in a brutal position. Right now LIV is basically just a menagerie assembled with relatively limitless funds and zero commercial viability. Hundreds of millions are being given to individual players essentially to not play professional golf for a chunk of the year. Maybe their "plan" is just to poach as much talent as possible, destabilize and effectively murder the PGA Tour, and survey the landscape following its destruction.

This all just seems to boil down to all professional sports are ruined for fans once the money gets too good.
I think LIV's endgame is the PGA/PIF merger talk - use LIV and their limitless funds to crowbar their way into a partnership with a legitimate tour. Viewed that way, the Rahm acquisition is a leverage play to get the PGA talking to PIF again vs. the other potential investors PGA has been courting.
 

Eagle3

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This is a pretty unique problem for an American sport. Other attempts to compete with established leagues in the past (such as the ABA in basketball, the WHA in hockey, several in football) had limited or no success before essentially folding due to lack of interest and funding. Some of them managed to get a few teams merged into the "big" league, but for the most part most of the franchises ultimately failed. LIV has the benefit of PIF having a seemingly unlimited budget. They don't seem to care about financial return on investment. That's a very difficult scenario to deal with if you're the PGA Tour. I'm curious why PIF chose to target golf. Were they approached by Greg Norman, or vice versa?
 

cshea

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They went to Norman. There was another group out there, the Premier Golf Leauge that was looking to partner with the PGA Tour and start a F1 type golf league. IIRC, players the PGL talked too originally didn't like having Saudi investors so the PGL divested (not usre if the PIF had ever placed an investment or if it was other Saudi investors). The PIF then basically ripped off the PGL's F1 type idea and started their own league, LIV.

I think the goal was to disrupt enough to force the PGA Tour to the table and eventually partner together. That gets the PIF a seat at the table and brings a lot of business and political connections. In the framework agreement negotiations, Yasir Al-Rumayyan wanted an Augusta membership out of this. They just want to get in and rub elbows with the business and political power brokers to continue advancing the sportswashing for the Saudi regime.

I think they'd love to buy an MLB/NBA/NFL team but much harder to get in the door. When they came to golf, the landscape was kind of ripe for the picking.
 

jercra

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Just a reminder, but the PGA TOUR is not a league like any other league. It's a "player run organization". What that means is that someone like LIV didn't have to buy the LA Dodgers to get Ohtani and get a bunch of players they didn't want. They could just buy Ohtani and there's nothing to stop them from going. Golf not only had the audience they are interested in, it was also easy pickings due to the structure.
 

cshea

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https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/39119991/pga-tour-us-sports-team-owners-group-nearing-deal

It will be interesting to see how much leverage this now gives the PGA in their negotiations with PIF.
I don't think it gives the Tour any leverage. In my view, the Tour needs PIF more than SSG because PIF has the players. Accepting investment from SSG but not PIF probably just leaves us in the same place we are today, a fractured men's professional golf world. PIF will just keep on poaching players.

The only way this ends is with the Tour and PIF coming to some kind of agreement.
 

Mooch

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I don't think it gives the Tour any leverage. In my view, the Tour needs PIF more than SSG because PIF has the players. Accepting investment from SSG but not PIF probably just leaves us in the same place we are today, a fractured men's professional golf world. PIF will just keep on poaching players.

The only way this ends is with the Tour and PIF coming to some kind of agreement.
The article suggests that a combined entity with SSG carries a lot of value for the Saudis:

The Saudis were initially hesitant to be part of a deal with the PGA Tour that includes other U.S.-based investors. But becoming partners with high-profile franchise owners like Henry, Blank and others was appealing. The Strategic Sports Group also includes Mark Attanasio (Milwaukee Brewers), Cohen Private Ventures (New York Mets), Tom Ricketts (Chicago Cubs) and Marc Lasry (Milwaukee Bucks, former co-owner).
"They get to rub shoulders with all these billionaire American sports magnates," a source said. "It's a long game for them. They're not stopping with golf. They want a piece of everything."
What PIF wants more than anything is legitimacy. Gaining entry into the billionaire boys US ownership club and giving them access to that inner circle is a really big deal for them.
 

voidfunkt

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The article suggests that a combined entity with SSG carries a lot of value for the Saudis:



What PIF wants more than anything is legitimacy. Gaining entry into the billionaire boys US ownership club and giving them access to that inner circle is a really big deal for them.
I don't understand how this gives then more access than they already should have... the PIF is just an arm of the Saudi regime which already has connections to every important government and billionaire if it wants to...

I also have no idea what the PGA is doing, I don't see how there is any combination of investors that can hole off Saudi money.
 

cshea

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I don't understand how this gives then more access than they already should have... the PIF is just an arm of the Saudi regime which already has connections to every important government and billionaire if it wants to...

I also have no idea what the PGA is doing, I don't see how there is any combination of investors that can hole off Saudi money.
I think the Tour has come to the realization that they have to partner with PIF. They aren't going to hold off PIF no matter who they bring in. The longer they go without a deal the more the PIF is just going to keep poaching players and bleeding them dry. The only way out is to deal with PIF.

I'm not sure if bringin in SSG just makes them feel better about also accepting PIF money.
 

Mooch

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I don't understand how this gives then more access than they already should have... the PIF is just an arm of the Saudi regime which already has connections to every important government and billionaire if it wants to...

I also have no idea what the PGA is doing, I don't see how there is any combination of investors that can hole off Saudi money.
Because you need the support of fellow owners to buy into US sports franchises, which seems to be their next step. If they're partners with some of the biggest names in American sports ownership in the new combined PGA, they would be more likely to get their approval when the next team comes up for sale. Or at least, that's the thinking, anyway.