2023 Pats: Post Your Final Draft Grade

2023 Pats: Post Your Final Draft Grade

  • A+

    Votes: 6 3.3%
  • A

    Votes: 37 20.4%
  • A-

    Votes: 40 22.1%
  • B+

    Votes: 36 19.9%
  • B

    Votes: 37 20.4%
  • B-

    Votes: 11 6.1%
  • C+

    Votes: 7 3.9%
  • C

    Votes: 4 2.2%
  • C-

    Votes: 2 1.1%
  • D/F

    Votes: 1 0.6%

  • Total voters
    181

nighthob

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Jul 15, 2005
12,787
... you need an offense that can go tit for tat. You're delusional if you think anything else wins consistently. How many times do the Bills need to blow the Pats off the field in a playoff game?
They have no way of going tit for tat against the KCs, Buffaloes, and Cincinnatis of the world. They just don’t have a QB capable of doing that. When you have an averagish QB your only hope is in slowing down the teams with elite QBs.
 

ShaneTrot

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Nov 17, 2002
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I like this draft. They need blue chippers. Gonzalez has the physical skills to be a number one corner. I am very surprised that they did not draft a TE from this great class. No TEs are under contract in 2024. BB loves TEs who can block and these 2023 Pats TEs cannot block worth a lick. Plus their OTs are questionable, and their best offensive player is Rhamondre. A better blocking, developmental TE seemed to be a need.
 

Salva135

Cassandra
Oct 19, 2008
1,582
Boston
They have no way of going tit for tat against the KCs, Buffaloes, and Cincinnatis of the world. They just don’t have a QB capable of doing that. When you have an averagish QB your only hope is in slowing down the teams with elite QBs.
Which means you have no hope. At least we agree.
 

Salva135

Cassandra
Oct 19, 2008
1,582
Boston
So the answer is to add more mediocre offensive players to a mediocre offense?

Roster rebuilds are often multiyear efforts. We've seen Patriots teams with highly talented offenses fall short due to defensive issues, and that wasn't that long ago. And the Bills were held to 10 points by the Bengals defense in the final game of their playoff season.
Where do you define the beginning of this "rebuild?" The last highly talented Pats offense that fell short due to defensive issues was in the Super Bowl, not sure this team is going there.. The Bills are not a relevant point of discussion at all, they can score points at will with their QB.
 

smokin joe wood

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Jul 19, 2005
865
Is it off field stuff with him, or more effort/coachability issues?
We didn't really follow up because he wasn't on the team and we wouldn't see him play. I didn't get the impression it was a physical thing. They also love their current WR room so that's probably a part of it too.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
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Dec 16, 2010
54,487
... you need an offense that can go tit for tat. You're delusional if you think anything else wins consistently. How many times do the Bills need to blow the Pats off the field in a playoff game?
Who was available at 17 or 46 that was a difference maker on offense. Name your claim.
 

Shelterdog

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Feb 19, 2002
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... you need an offense that can go tit for tat. You're delusional if you think anything else wins consistently. How many times do the Bills need to blow the Pats off the field in a playoff game?
Given what the Pats had in terms of draft capital how would you build that offense? Draft Quentin Johnson kidnap jamar chase and put chase in a Quentin Johnson jersey?
 

Mantush

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Jul 30, 2014
479
Given what the Pats had in terms of draft capital how would you build that offense? Draft Quentin Johnson kidnap jamar chase and put chase in a Quentin Johnson jersey?
You trade Bailey Zappe to the Texans for #1 overall to draft Bryce Young and then #15 and a 7th next year to the Raiders for #7 to draft Johnson or JSN. Then you can package some late round picks and trade back into the first round to draft either an OT or a RB. It works in Madden.
 

Salva135

Cassandra
Oct 19, 2008
1,582
Boston
In the final game, Buffalo beat the Pats 35-23. Allen had 3 TD passes and Nyheim Hines returned 2 kickoffs for TDs. A kicker who could get touchbacks might have made a difference there.
That is the problem. Unless Mac can throw that many, who cares? What are we trying to accomplish? Barely keep up with a divisional opponent? With Rodgers we now have 6 games in our division alone where keeping up is going to be a problem.
 

Salva135

Cassandra
Oct 19, 2008
1,582
Boston
Given what the Pats had in terms of draft capital how would you build that offense? Draft Quentin Johnson kidnap jamar chase and put chase in a Quentin Johnson jersey?
I have no idea because I'm not a draft guy. The simplest answer is probably to struggle mightily and lose games.
 

Salva135

Cassandra
Oct 19, 2008
1,582
Boston
If your point is that they need a top 5 QB to win, shouldn’t you be rooting for them to get worse and emerge from the ‘24 draft with Caleb Williams?
If Mac can be top 15 I'd be ecstatic. At least the games would be fun to watch.

Look, I'm not happy to admit this team is in NFL purgatory. Looking at the division and conference this is about as bad as it can be right now. Good enough to eek out a few wins we shouldn't get, and get embarrassed by superior teams. Such is life in the NFL.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
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Dec 16, 2010
54,487
I have no idea because I'm not a draft guy. The simplest answer is probably to struggle mightily and lose games.
You're kind of all over the place. For someone that's "not a draft guy" you have a lot of opinions on where they went wrong in said draft. And when asked to supply solutions in the draft you were criticizing you couldn't do it. So now your answer is "tank".

Maybe, take a breath, take a walk.
 

Salva135

Cassandra
Oct 19, 2008
1,582
Boston
You're kind of all over the place. For someone that's "not a draft guy" you have a lot of opinions on where they went wrong in said draft. And when asked to supply solutions in the draft you were criticizing you couldn't do it. So now your answer is "tank".

Maybe, take a breath, take a walk.
Where did I say tank? I didn't say they went wrong, I gave it a B! I just said this team is not good on offense, won't score many points, and probably won't win many games. I'm pretty consistent in that assessment.
 

Salva135

Cassandra
Oct 19, 2008
1,582
Boston
You're kind of all over the place. For someone that's "not a draft guy" you have a lot of opinions on where they went wrong in said draft. And when asked to supply solutions in the draft you were criticizing you couldn't do it. So now your answer is "tank".

Maybe, take a breath, take a walk.
Where are all these draft opinions on where they went wrong? I haven't offered any.
 

Shelterdog

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Feb 19, 2002
15,375
New York City
I have no idea because I'm not a draft guy. The simplest answer is probably to struggle mightily and lose games.
If you take one thing away from this thread it’s that tanking isn’t a good idea in football-the only time It helps is if you happen to be pretty bad when a great qb is going number one, in which case sure make sure you’re the worst team instead of third worst-the marginal improvement in draft position isn’t worth losing the time for your team to develop chemistry and cohesion and improve on its execution
 

Salva135

Cassandra
Oct 19, 2008
1,582
Boston
I see the confusion here. I didn't mean to suggest the Pats tank to get better players next year. I meant that if the WR class sucks, then the most likely outcome is we roll with what we have (yes, I know we have an exciting prospect) and likely lose football games because the offense is likely to be very bad. My plan is we're probably gonna suck. This is hardly mind blowing stuff.
 

Salva135

Cassandra
Oct 19, 2008
1,582
Boston
2022 Offense:

28th in first downs
27th in 3rd down %

The opposite of ball control. Thats an offense that can't stay ON the field. That's a hell of a lot of faith in BOB to turn this around to help the defense.

That said, a BOB and Mac screaming match is basically a given, and I'm excited for it.
 
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Shelterdog

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So your plan to improve the team is, what, keep being shitty until you eventually get good players somehow?

Worked for the Bengals I guess
 

sezwho

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Jul 20, 2005
2,094
Isle of Plum
Where do you define the beginning of this "rebuild?" The last highly talented Pats offense that fell short due to defensive issues was in the Super Bowl, not sure this team is going there.. The Bills are not a relevant point of discussion at all, they can score points at will with their QB.
On thread topic: I gave a B+ because I liked the CB1 and most of other picks too (though feelings about middle of draft more guarded). I don’t ding for not taking WR because I believe they didn’t think anyone available after round 1 would make their team (don’t know if I agree). The WR room is very high floor/ low ceiling. TE would have been tempting.

To the bolded above: I like this question a lot! Unlike some other sports, perhaps like basketball or apparently now baseball, I really struggle with the peaking and long rebuild idea. Essentially every NFL position should be in a near constant state of renewal, and decent FA stopgaps (like a Gesiski for example) are always available when you stumble. Bottoming out for a qb lottery ticket can make sense but the lottery is also a recipe for more lottery.

Yes some teams do trade cap (atl) and pick (sd ) futures, but I guess my suspicion is NFL rebuilds aren’t inherently very long unless you’re really over leveraged or you just just stink or got really unlucky for multiple years
 

Shelterdog

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I don’t think rebuild is really the correct concept-I think ideally your team is in constant state of evolution and searching to improve but not with any particular peak year or trough year in mind. What’s interesting about football is that there’s an element of randomness about what pieces become available to you (eg it could have been Paris Johnson or Bijan Robinson who slid in the draft instead of Gonzalez) and the nature and strengths of your team
Will morph when you take advantage of different opportunities to improve the team
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
43,856
AZ
I think K and P are very much not fungible personally. Good ST play is a huge advantage and teams that ignore it always seem to fail.
No stats to back it up, but I kind of feel as though the kicking game may be even more crucial for teams on the playoff bubble for which a field goal or return might be the difference.
 

Salva135

Cassandra
Oct 19, 2008
1,582
Boston
On thread topic: I gave a B+ because I liked the CB1 and most of other picks too (though feelings about middle of draft more guarded). I don’t ding for not taking WR because I believe they didn’t think anyone available after round 1 would make their team (don’t know if I agree). The WR room is very high floor/ low ceiling. TE would have been tempting.

To the bolded above: I like this question a lot! Unlike some other sports, perhaps like basketball or apparently now baseball, I really struggle with the peaking and long rebuild idea. Essentially every NFL position should be in a near constant state of renewal, and decent FA stopgaps (like a Gesiski for example) are always available when you stumble. Bottoming out for a qb lottery ticket can make sense but the lottery is also a recipe for more lottery.

Yes some teams do trade cap (atl) and pick (sd ) futures, but I guess my suspicion is NFL rebuilds aren’t inherently very long unless you’re really over leveraged or you just just stink or got really unlucky for multiple years
I think the easiest way to define NFL plans is by their QBs. We're on year 3 of Plan Mac.
 

Salva135

Cassandra
Oct 19, 2008
1,582
Boston
I don’t think rebuild is really the correct concept-I think ideally your team is in constant state of evolution and searching to improve but not with any particular peak year or trough year in mind. What’s interesting about football is that there’s an element of randomness about what pieces become available to you (eg it could have been Paris Johnson or Bijan Robinson who slid in the draft instead of Gonzalez) and the nature and strengths of your team
Will morph when you take advantage of different opportunities to improve the team
See what I said above. The easiest way to define this plan is Year 3 of Mac. So many moves happen based around that.

Don't pretend BB lives in some existential void where the team is always changing and thus never the actual team or some Ship of Theseus shit.
 
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Shelterdog

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See what I said above. The easiest way to define this plan is Year 3 of Mac. So many moves happen based around that.

Don't pretend BB lives in some existential void where the team is always changing and thus never the actual team or some Ship of Theseus shit.
Not sure what you’re trying to say I’m saying, but in my conception you’re trying every single year to improve on the prior years team and due to the challenges and vagaries of the NFL that just means the team is going to shift a little over time. But also because it does take time and because you are building on the prior year it’s really hard to saw shazam, we had one good off season and our offense is KC level now
 

Salva135

Cassandra
Oct 19, 2008
1,582
Boston
Not sure what you’re trying to say I’m saying, but in my conception you’re trying every single year to improve on the prior years team and due to the challenges and vagaries of the NFL that just means the team is going to shift a little over time. But also because it does take time and because you are building on the prior year it’s really hard to saw shazam, we had one good off season and our offense is KC level now
I feel like this is a "BB takes what's available, can't blame him as the GM if the draft is bad and the team is bad" apologia. Which is a general theme on this board, so forgive me if I deviate from the standard fare. Perhaps no draft will ever satisfy Bill Belichick.
 

Salva135

Cassandra
Oct 19, 2008
1,582
Boston
This is Year 3 of the Mac Jones Experiment. Everyone views it as such. You're welcome to create discourses about team evolution theory as you see fit.
 

Shelterdog

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I feel like this is a "BB takes what's available, can't blame him as the GM if the draft is bad and the team is bad" apologia. Which is a general theme on this board, so forgive me if I deviate from the standard fare. Perhaps no draft will ever satisfy Bill Belichick.
It’s certainly not that. If you don’t get good players and put together a good team you’re not being a good GM and you should eventually lose your job. But on the other hand a lot of things aren’t in your control-there was a great cb prospect available to the pats in the first but not a similarly good x receiver or LT so maybe you can’t get the sort of player you’d want to improve the offense
 

Salva135

Cassandra
Oct 19, 2008
1,582
Boston
It’s certainly not that. If you don’t get good players and put together a good team you’re not being a good GM and you should eventually lose your job. But on the other hand a lot of things aren’t in your control-there was a great cb prospect available to the pats in the first but not a similarly good x receiver or LT so maybe you can’t get the sort of player you’d want to improve the offense
Well now you're asking a much bigger question and even I am not ready to go there yet.

Look, I don't care about the randomness of the draft. Somebody has to be held accountable, right?

All I did was give a B grade to this draft and say this team won't score many points and probably won't win many games. I stand by that assessment. Feel free to counter it, I'll listen.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Dec 12, 2002
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That is the problem. Unless Mac can throw that many, who cares? What are we trying to accomplish? Barely keep up with a divisional opponent? With Rodgers we now have 6 games in our division alone where keeping up is going to be a problem.
In that game, Mac did throw that many, :)
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
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Dec 16, 2010
54,487
You'll have to ask Belichick about that. I openly don't have a plan because that's not my job.
Then do you understand that it kind of kills discussion for a poster to keep saying "they're not good enough!" but have no actual ideas to put forth? Basically you're just repeating yourself. I think we can stipulate that you don't like what's going on. But you don't have to reply to every post saying that then, when asked for ideas say "It's not my job".

That's how you get pinked.
 

mcpickl

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Jul 23, 2007
4,569
After the first three rounds (maybe even after the first), the draft seems to be a huge crapshoot so the more bites at the Apple the better.
I think too often we grade drafts on the number of misses, but the number of hits is all that matters.

I wonder if the plan is to put the new guards into a competition for RG with a plan to move Onwenu back to RT.
This is how I see the draft as well.

You need to hit 100% on a starter in round one.
You need to hit 50% on starters in rounds 2 and 3.
After that, you're just hoping to hit on a role player or two, and occasionally a lottery ticket that hits big.

I don't worry at all on what positions the guys play that are picked after the third round, since most of them won't ever play a meaningful role on your team. Go ahead and take 3 interior offensive linemen if you like them. Maybe one hits and you don't have to see James Ferentz wheeled out on to the field anymore. Take your specialists and if the kicker beats out Nick Folk, you have another million bucks to spend elsewhere.

Matt Groh said last night in a question to moving Onwenu that he is settled in at guard.
 

Van Everyman

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Apr 30, 2009
27,599
Newton
As for the WEAPONZ argument, I will be interested to see what happens with Thornton in year two. As Patriots fans, we are kind of accustomed to receiver picks we were high on at draft time becoming busts. But as much as we spent all offseason debating whether Patricia was the reason Mac struggled in year 2, the same may well be true of Thornton. All we’ve seen of him is a few preseason snaps (where he looked really good) and a bunch of games where he looked out of sorts, but so did the whole offense by that point.

If Thornton can actually provide that speed over the top consistently (or even sporadically), the field opens up for Mac in a way it never really did last year.
 

Salva135

Cassandra
Oct 19, 2008
1,582
Boston
Then do you understand that it kind of kills discussion for a poster to keep saying "they're not good enough!" but have no actual ideas to put forth? Basically you're just repeating yourself. I think we can stipulate that you don't like what's going on. But you don't have to reply to every post saying that then, when asked for ideas say "It's not my job".

That's how you get pinked.
This is a sports message board. I can say whatever I want and I don't need to submit a plan to BB. The beauty of a message board is to bitch about or praise moves or non-moves that no one pays me to make. That's literally the point of this board.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
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Jul 20, 2009
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Just a heads up for White. He has a natural position as a 3-4 base-end, a 5 tech. He can also play 4i. On passing downs you could put him over a guard as a 3-tech sub rusher or you can even kick him out wide if you want a pocket crushing approach. I wouldn’t say he’s a tweener. He would be a tweener for an even front maybe but he’s fine in an odd front.
 

nighthob

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Jul 15, 2005
12,787
If Mac can be top 15 I'd be ecstatic. At least the games would be fun to watch. .
That’s the point, if you have an averagish QB you aren’t going to go toe to toe with the high powered offenses. You need to find other ways to win.
 

j44thor

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Aug 1, 2006
11,212
Interesting thing about Boutte, 17% of his college yardage production came in his last game his Fr year (308 yds) and 37% of his college production (total 27gms) came in a 4 game stretch, last 3gms of Fr season and 1st game of Soph season. As a 6th rd flyer he is perfectly fine but I'll be very surprised if he amounts to anything in the NFL just like most 6th rd picks. I don't think it is all character/mental, I think his skills deteriorated due to multiple ankle injuries that required surgery. Perhaps 2yrs removed from those injuries he gets some athleticism back? Good Q for some of the Drs. on this board.
 

Salva135

Cassandra
Oct 19, 2008
1,582
Boston
That’s the point, if you have an averagish QB you aren’t going to go toe to toe with the high powered offenses. You need to find other ways to win.
And my point is there are no other ways to win, consistently. Weather Acts of God don't count. You simply lost a lot of football games.
 

Fishercat

Svelte and sexy!
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May 18, 2007
8,482
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I went A, it seemed like the second straight year the Pats acknowledged that for years they were able to pull off scheme over athleticism and that the game and their team is different now. It feels like they are prioritizing guys with the athleticism to make a more immediate difference and then figure out the best way to make it work. Special teams was a disaster last year and there are several guys here to make that better

My one wish would have been if they could have traded up somewhere to get a TE. I totally get those who wish they went more offense as a longer term item, I just think the ok offense and great defense is more attainable and with six games in the East they need speed and power on the defense.
 

FL4WL3SS

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Jul 31, 2006
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Interesting thing about Boutte, 17% of his college yardage production came in his last game his Fr year (308 yds) and 37% of his college production (total 27gms) came in a 4 game stretch, last 3gms of Fr season and 1st game of Soph season. As a 6th rd flyer he is perfectly fine but I'll be very surprised if he amounts to anything in the NFL just like most 6th rd picks. I don't think it is all character/mental, I think his skills deteriorated due to multiple ankle injuries that required surgery. Perhaps 2yrs removed from those injuries he gets some athleticism back? Good Q for some of the Drs. on this board.
These are the reasons he was a 6th round flyer.
 

nighthob

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Jul 15, 2005
12,787
And my point is there are no other ways to win, consistently. Weather Acts of God don't count.
So why are you watching? According to you you need a top QB to win and there are only ever a handful of those guys around at any given time. New England doesn’t have one and isn’t likely to have one any time soon. They’re in the same boat as another 25 or so teams.
 

Fishercat

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May 18, 2007
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Interesting thing about Boutte, 17% of his college yardage production came in his last game his Fr year (308 yds) and 37% of his college production (total 27gms) came in a 4 game stretch, last 3gms of Fr season and 1st game of Soph season. As a 6th rd flyer he is perfectly fine but I'll be very surprised if he amounts to anything in the NFL just like most 6th rd picks. I don't think it is all character/mental, I think his skills deteriorated due to multiple ankle injuries that required surgery. Perhaps 2yrs removed from those injuries he gets some athleticism back? Good Q for some of the Drs. on this board.
This I agree with. Like there are legit reasons NE found him that late. It'd be great if he was that kind of find but it's a flier
 

DavidTai

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Dec 18, 2003
1,314
Herndon, VA
My one wish would have been if they could have traded up somewhere to get a TE. I totally get those who wish they went more offense as a longer term item, I just think the ok offense and great defense is more attainable and with six games in the East they need speed and power on the defense.
That's roughly my take on it too... we might have come away with more wins with better special teams as well.

Getting a TE like Gronkowski, on the other hands, took years of the Patriots throwing picks at TEs and missing on a ton of them along the way. They may have decided to just focus on fixing STs, especially with Slater on what might be his last year, rather than take a flier on a TE in the draft. (I dunno how good that undrafted TE is going to be, but that is a huge radius.)
 

Salva135

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Oct 19, 2008
1,582
Boston
So why are you watching? According to you you need a top QB to win and there are only ever a handful of those guys around at any given time. New England doesn’t have one and isn’t likely to have one any time soon. They’re in the same boat as another 25 or so teams.
Because I like football? You just described life for 25 or so NFL fan bases. It's not all that bad, we can pop in a Super Bowl DVD and relive the glory days whenever we want.