2022 PGA Tour
- Thread starter cshea
- Start date
They offered Nicklaus 100M to figurehead the thing.
Jack Nicklaus Confirms 'Courtesy' Meeting with LIV Golf, But 'Zero Interest' - Morning Read (si.com)
Interesting. So, the ones I've seen:
Nicklaus: $100M (declined)
Norman: Clearly $100M+ or more
Mickelson: $200M
DJ: $125M
DeChambeau: $100M
Koepka must be $100M+ or more given his pedigree. Truly an insane amount of money being thrown around here by the Saudis.
https://nypost.com/2022/06/21/brooks-koepka-joining-saudi-backed-liv-tour/
Well it's insane when you consider they don't have any sponsors or a TV deal. But they're not in it to make money.
There are rumors out there that Tiger was offered nearly a billion dollars to go to the LIV Tour.
https://sports.yahoo.com/tiger-woods-turned-down-offer-164432245.html
Lol. You're comparing an NFL team to a single golfer? That is a take. A bad one.
The money is insane. DJ got more money than Tiger has earned on the course in his career.
If I'm Koepka, I demand a dollar more than Bryson got ... then encase that dollar in a clear paperweight and put it in my trophy case
Abe to LIV is official.
View: https://twitter.com/LIVGolfInv/status/1539293660780666884?s=20&t=_fRi0qFGTJ1di0j-D37-rg
View: https://twitter.com/LIVGolfInv/status/1539293660780666884?s=20&t=_fRi0qFGTJ1di0j-D37-rg
I noticed that, too. It was well done.
I don't think I have posted a single thought in here on the Blood Money Tour, but there isn't a chance that I watch a second of it. I am aware that as a casual viewer at best, I am not their target demo, but as far as I am concerned any player who goes to this tour is contributing to "sports washing" of human rights violations and terrorism support at best, and every single one of them immediately becomes persona non grata in my mind. I hope the entire endeavor fails spectacularly, and I hope the PGAT refuses to allow them to come back when it does.
Of course, it's 2022, so there's no chance of my hopes coming true, so, whatever.
The money of course is insane. But I took him to mean owning an entire, dominant tour might be comparable to, or have more value than a single NFL franchise. Not just owning one player.
Here's Abe's statement:
View: https://twitter.com/Abraham_Ancer/status/1539292739187224577?s=20&t=_fRi0qFGTJ1di0j-D37-rg
I just wish these guys would come out and say the money was too much to turn down. At least be honest instead of the releasing the same statement over and over.
The common refrain is "growing the game" and "more time with my family." The grow the game is bullshit. LIV isn't going anywhere the Tour/DP World Tour hasn't already been. Abe for some reason says it's more of an opportunity to grow the game in Mexico, where the Tour has already invested in and has two tournaments a year in. LIV's closeststop to Mexico is Doral.
"More time with my family" is also horseshit. LIV is planning a 14-event season once they are fully up and running next year. Most of the players seem to still want to play in the Majors if they can. So, it's an 18-week season. The top players on the PGA Tour typically make...you guessed it...around 18 total starts a year. The LIV guys usually try to shoe horn in a line about being disappointedthey can't do both when essentially they have no intention to do so.
View: https://twitter.com/Abraham_Ancer/status/1539292739187224577?s=20&t=_fRi0qFGTJ1di0j-D37-rg
I just wish these guys would come out and say the money was too much to turn down. At least be honest instead of the releasing the same statement over and over.
The common refrain is "growing the game" and "more time with my family." The grow the game is bullshit. LIV isn't going anywhere the Tour/DP World Tour hasn't already been. Abe for some reason says it's more of an opportunity to grow the game in Mexico, where the Tour has already invested in and has two tournaments a year in. LIV's closeststop to Mexico is Doral.
"More time with my family" is also horseshit. LIV is planning a 14-event season once they are fully up and running next year. Most of the players seem to still want to play in the Majors if they can. So, it's an 18-week season. The top players on the PGA Tour typically make...you guessed it...around 18 total starts a year. The LIV guys usually try to shoe horn in a line about being disappointedthey can't do both when essentially they have no intention to do so.
No doubt. Everyone of these statements contains the same, disingenuous, platitudes. Just slightly personalized and re-worded. The talk upthread of selling their soul is ringing true. These guys didn't just collect a shit load of money to play the events, they are active participants in the attempt at image repair by the Saudis. And I wonder what the repercussions would be, if one of them has second thoughts, and decides to come back to the PGA, and/or criticize/speak their mind about LIV. "Scary motherfuckers", after all.
Had a similar thought earlier today. I won't say "when", but "if" something really bad happens to one of these guys... it's hard to even process. It feels like dealing with the mob or something.
Yeah, that's what I was getting at earlier when I said that someone who just "gives" you $100M has a right to feel as though they can control what you say and do.
Look what happened to Shipnuck at the press conference. Now, Shipnuck is by many accounts a tool ... but being forcibly removed from a media event in full view of cameras sends a signal that says "we don't care who sees what. you go against our interests and action will be taken."
Yup. I view this almost like Putin and the oligarchs. These guys have all sold out for money...but there are strings attached and there is no doubt here who controls them. A country that had no problem brutally murdering a journalist won't think twice to harm a golfer or a member of his family, if it suits them. I would be very uncomfortable about accepting this arrangement for that reason alone, especially their non-US tournaments.
Mostly, but not completely, I doubt they would actually employ violence against one the players, if for no other reason than it would, no matter how well they tried to hide that it was them, completely ruin the sports-washing effort they've invested so much in. But I could see extremely aggressive and relentless litigation, and all sorts of attempts at character assassination in the process. And I don't have to stretch my imagination too much to think they might threaten, or imply violence. Even if they don't actually follow through on it.
I'd love that, too, but it seems almost certain that it's a condition of signing on to not discuss the financial aspect of all this. It's already been mentioned, but it would be a bad idea to go against the wishes of anyone behind LIV, so I doubt anyone speaks frankly and says that they just couldn't turn down that much cash.
It will be interesting to see what happens though. Several of these guys have bristled with whatever authority the PGA has tried to hold over them. Most have been pampered and catered to from their early years on and have no idea what real authority looks like, but they're about to find out.
Yup. These are professional golfers, not diplomats. It wouldn't take much for the Saudis to get their compliance. Implied or explicit threats would absolutely be on the table and I highly doubt they'd need to do more. But I also wouldn't want to find out where their red line is, if I'm one of these guys.
I think it is pretty different. To use the mob analogy, they don't usually threaten people to make them gamble and get into their debt. They play to their greed, and inability to resist temptation, then they have their hooks in.
Golf channel is owned by NBC/Comcast. Will they want the bad publicity, and fouled waters with the PGA, who they are a broadcast partner of, that would come with that sale?
Only if NBC wants to spend more time with their family and help to grow the game
Rahm: “I want to play against the best in the world in a format that's been going on for hundreds of years. That's what I want to see.”
https://www.si.com/golf/news/brooks-koepka-said-there-was-no-other-option-then-miraculously-found-liv-golf
It's basically a column trashing the LIVTour and Koepka, but this was well-done:
Koepka also might find the quality of life different from what he imagined. He fancies himself an iconoclast. “You tell me I can't do something, I'm going to do it,” he told SI in 2018. He might find that harder to achieve as an employee of the Saudi government.
https://www.si.com/golf/news/brooks-koepka-said-there-was-no-other-option-then-miraculously-found-liv-golf
It's basically a column trashing the LIVTour and Koepka, but this was well-done:
Koepka also might find the quality of life different from what he imagined. He fancies himself an iconoclast. “You tell me I can't do something, I'm going to do it,” he told SI in 2018. He might find that harder to achieve as an employee of the Saudi government.
Brutal takedown of Koepka.
https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/06/21/eamon-lynch-brooks-koepka-liv-golf-pga-tour/
https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/06/21/eamon-lynch-brooks-koepka-liv-golf-pga-tour/
From that article: "He has always fancied himself more an athlete than a golfer, but this is an admission that he’s neither, that he’s just an entertainer doomed to play exhibitions against the washed-up veterans and no-name youngsters that he’s long considered unfit to sniff his jockstrap."
Um... as of right now...
Johnson is ranked #16 in the world. (2 majors)
Koepka is ranked #19 in the world. (4 majors)
Ancer is ranked #20 in the world.
Oosthuizen is ranked #23 in the world. (1 major)
Bryson is ranked #30 in the world. (1 major)
Na is ranked #34 in the world.
Reed is ranked #38 in the world. (1 major)
Gooch is ranked #39 in the world.
Sergio is ranked #59 in the world. (1 major)
Obviously the total roster of the PGA Tour is WAY better than the LIV tour, but there's some excellent players on LIV. Niemann (#18) and Morikawa (#4) are rumored to join (not sure if those rumors are true).
Um... as of right now...
Johnson is ranked #16 in the world. (2 majors)
Koepka is ranked #19 in the world. (4 majors)
Ancer is ranked #20 in the world.
Oosthuizen is ranked #23 in the world. (1 major)
Bryson is ranked #30 in the world. (1 major)
Na is ranked #34 in the world.
Reed is ranked #38 in the world. (1 major)
Gooch is ranked #39 in the world.
Sergio is ranked #59 in the world. (1 major)
Obviously the total roster of the PGA Tour is WAY better than the LIV tour, but there's some excellent players on LIV. Niemann (#18) and Morikawa (#4) are rumored to join (not sure if those rumors are true).
I'm reminded of startups over the past couple of years poaching talent from my company, a more established vendor with a long track record of success:
- Flush with VC money, the startups hire away our mediocre talent at crazy salaries (1.5X, 2X, sometimes more)
- Our top talent stays because they're successful, happy, and don't trust the long term outlook of the startups
- inevitably, offering insane compensation packages to not very high-performers shows itself to be an unsustainable business model
- The VC money dries up
- Said talent is discarded and forced to find a new job less than a year later
- Rinse and repeat
When the market was hot, anything was on the table. I'd get insane offers from recruiters almost daily and I'd ask if 20% more was possible out of curiosity, and it almost always was. Now I'm seeing those same companies laying people off or rescinding job offers while more established companies with sustainable business models steadily weather the storm.
I know that the Saudi money is insane and seemingly bottomless, but everyone has a limit, even the Russian Oligarch's and Joe Tsai's of the world. If this thing is failing in a year or two, I don't see the want of the government to keep doling out billions for not much in return - that just feels like it's totally against human behavior. And I don't know the details of these guys who've thrown their lots in with LIV, but I can't imagine they're getting all of their money upfront. It's probably paid in stages and upon their participation in events. If in September there's just no momentum for the world to watch Abraham Ancer duke it out with Kevin Na in a shotgun tournament held in Cork, LIV can just fold up and probably tell the players to F off. What's stopping them? Is Patrick Reed going to sue Aramco? Good luck.
Meanwhile, the PGA will just steadily go along like it has for a century. Point is, there's nothing holding LIV's owners - no tradition or history or responsbility to fans - accountable to keep the business going. It's just their ledger sheet and that can be twisted to suit interests much more easily than something that's embedded into culture. They could even have a superior product (they won't, but they could) but more importantly, do they have the will to weather disappointment? Highly doubt it. There's no emotion attached to this venture for any of the parties involved.
- Flush with VC money, the startups hire away our mediocre talent at crazy salaries (1.5X, 2X, sometimes more)
- Our top talent stays because they're successful, happy, and don't trust the long term outlook of the startups
- inevitably, offering insane compensation packages to not very high-performers shows itself to be an unsustainable business model
- The VC money dries up
- Said talent is discarded and forced to find a new job less than a year later
- Rinse and repeat
When the market was hot, anything was on the table. I'd get insane offers from recruiters almost daily and I'd ask if 20% more was possible out of curiosity, and it almost always was. Now I'm seeing those same companies laying people off or rescinding job offers while more established companies with sustainable business models steadily weather the storm.
I know that the Saudi money is insane and seemingly bottomless, but everyone has a limit, even the Russian Oligarch's and Joe Tsai's of the world. If this thing is failing in a year or two, I don't see the want of the government to keep doling out billions for not much in return - that just feels like it's totally against human behavior. And I don't know the details of these guys who've thrown their lots in with LIV, but I can't imagine they're getting all of their money upfront. It's probably paid in stages and upon their participation in events. If in September there's just no momentum for the world to watch Abraham Ancer duke it out with Kevin Na in a shotgun tournament held in Cork, LIV can just fold up and probably tell the players to F off. What's stopping them? Is Patrick Reed going to sue Aramco? Good luck.
Meanwhile, the PGA will just steadily go along like it has for a century. Point is, there's nothing holding LIV's owners - no tradition or history or responsbility to fans - accountable to keep the business going. It's just their ledger sheet and that can be twisted to suit interests much more easily than something that's embedded into culture. They could even have a superior product (they won't, but they could) but more importantly, do they have the will to weather disappointment? Highly doubt it. There's no emotion attached to this venture for any of the parties involved.
I would bet against the PGA ever letting these guys back in. They took too much money and it would create incredible backlash from those that showed loyalty.
What happens with the Ryder Cup, the rankings, and the Masters is going to be really interesting. It’s great to have infinite money instead of just way more money than your family could ever spend, but pissing away various opportunities for actual bragging rights about actual golf seems like a bad thing.
What happens with the Ryder Cup, the rankings, and the Masters is going to be really interesting. It’s great to have infinite money instead of just way more money than your family could ever spend, but pissing away various opportunities for actual bragging rights about actual golf seems like a bad thing.
My guess is that these guys are going to owe Phil a huge debt of thanks. They’re playing it cool and it’s going to force the PGA to do exactly what Phil was pushing.
Today they announced possible new competitions with huge purses. Guys like Colin and Xander are handling it perfect. They’re all just playing it for the money. None of this is about legacy or history. It’s all about leverage.
Today they announced possible new competitions with huge purses. Guys like Colin and Xander are handling it perfect. They’re all just playing it for the money. None of this is about legacy or history. It’s all about leverage.
I feel like this is directed at me. I was using legacy and history as terms to signify that the PGA has been a solvent, sustainable business for a century and it's had to navigate a variety of challenges. It's a reliable source of income. LIV has no such track record and Saudi/ARAMCO history of allegiance to interests other than its own is spotty at best.
The TOUR did not just invent a bunch of money today. The money was always coming due to the new TV deals that kicked in this year. The TOUR is the players and the money was always going to them (where else could it even go?). The updated fall series has also been in discussion for a while now. The timing of the announcements is certainly a reaction to the Saudis, but giving any credit for more money to Phil is misguided.
I wasn’t directing my comments to anyone. I am a fan of the tour I just think to ascribe any sense of altruism or loyalty to these guys is misplaced. I agree that legacy is more akin to a consistent paycheck.
Rory out in front again for the PGA Tour. Also, there seems to be legitimate surprise over Brooks.
View: https://twitter.com/Daniel_Rapaport/status/1539651536048906241?s=20&t=5ecw37WKBeLMR9nxQGbEjA
View: https://twitter.com/Daniel_Rapaport/status/1539651536048906241?s=20&t=5ecw37WKBeLMR9nxQGbEjA
Also, the Tours latest response is to create an elite, big money, series throughout the year using existing tournaments.
View: https://twitter.com/dylan_dethier/status/1539649833593479168?s=20&t=5ecw37WKBeLMR9nxQGbEjA
View: https://twitter.com/dylan_dethier/status/1539649833593479168?s=20&t=5ecw37WKBeLMR9nxQGbEjA
LIV announces Brooks right as Jay Monahan starts his press conference.
View: https://twitter.com/LIVGolfInv/status/1539659118780112896?s=20&t=5ecw37WKBeLMR9nxQGbEjA
View: https://twitter.com/LIVGolfInv/status/1539659118780112896?s=20&t=5ecw37WKBeLMR9nxQGbEjA