2022-2023 General Celtics thread

benhogan

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Probably geared more toward the gambling thread but the Celtics playing to the road trip script perfectly by going through the motions tonight. Now suck it up and beat the Lakers on the way back east….:gonna be tough on a B2B.
Yea, this trip has gone to your road trip script. Come out strong at the beginning. All 3 wins were high quality/high energy wins. Then a week of hotel life catches up to the team. Completely flat. PLUS multiple starts and larger roles from Blake/Kornet doesn't help (on the boards/shot blocking/switching).

Went to the game early last night, Smart (and Hauser) were front-rimming most 3pt attempts pre-game. Both JAYs 3PA were even more off with an L/R fade. The crowd went nutz when JB barely hit the right side of the rim on Q4 FTs for FREE Chick-fil-A.

I wouldn't expect much from them tonight, but if they can dig deep and find something it would be a high-quality win (even against an 11-15 Laker team).

Keith Smith laid it out here:

https://www.celticsblog.com/2022/12/13/23507193/back-to-back-bad-ones-8-takeaways-from-boston-celtics-la-clippers
 

Jimbodandy

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Yea, this trip has gone to your road trip script. Come out strong at the beginning. All 3 wins were high quality/high energy wins. Then a week of hotel life catches up to the team. Completely flat. PLUS multiple starts and larger roles from Blake/Kornet doesn't help (on the boards/shot blocking/switching).

Went to the game early last night, Smart (and Hauser) were front-rimming most 3pt attempts pre-game. Both JAYs 3PA were even more off with an L/R fade. The crowd went nutz when JB barely hit the right side of the rim on Q4 FTs for FREE Chick-fil-A.

I wouldn't expect much from them tonight, but if they can dig deep and find something it would be a high-quality win (even against an 11-15 Laker team).

Keith Smith laid it out here:

https://www.celticsblog.com/2022/12/13/23507193/back-to-back-bad-ones-8-takeaways-from-boston-celtics-la-clippers
Good piece.

Even in Bird's heyday, these long trips (especially involving the west coast) involved some letdown games. Keeping your intensity up for that length of time on the road is pretty hard to do. I didn't catch last night's game, but it seems like another example of what a team with experienced and savvy frontmen can do to this team who's still figuring out stuff. Don't have high hopes for tonight either, but I guess with the weirdness that is the Lakers anything is possible.
 

Reverend

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Both JAYs 3PA were even more off with an L/R fade. The crowd went nutz when JB barely hit the right side of the rim on Q4 FTs for FREE Chick-fil-A.
Wait, I’m not clear on this; people get free food if the opposing player misses?
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Wait, I’m not clear on this; people get free food if the opposing player misses?
Clips have a promo where if you're a SoCal resident and were at the game, you get free chicken if an opponent misses two free throws in a row in the fourth quarter. I think the idea is that the Clippers fans are usually pretty reserved and have an arrive late and leave early reputation, so this gets them to be loud during free throws late.
 

benhogan

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Wait, I’m not clear on this; people get free food if the opposing player misses?
It was Disney World at Crypto.com. Clipper Darrell was right behind us, loud and in his clown outfit. They also had Chick-fil-A coupon parachutes come down in Q4, Xmas trivia contest, Kiss Cam, Karaoke Cam, Hug Cam, Sneak Up Cam, DJ Dense hype, Clipper Spirit Squad and then another group of Clipper girls running around the arena grinding banisters throwing t-shirts around along with Condor Clipper with his T-Shirt Gun. Flames and fireworks from behind the hoops. King Combs rapping at halftime (Puffy's kid). With some dude running around the court with a BAD BOY flag (which made me think of this Chappelle bit).

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JjLd3MufCE
 

Reverend

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It was Disney World at Crypto.com. Clipper Darrell was right behind us, loud and in his clown outfit. They also had Chick-fil-A coupon parachutes come down in Q4, Xmas trivia contest, Kiss Cam, Karaoke Cam, Hug Cam, Sneak Up Cam, DJ Dense hype, Clipper Spirit Squad and then another group of Clipper girls running around the arena grinding banisters throwing t-shirts around along with Condor Clipper with his T-Shirt Gun. Flames and fireworks from behind the hoops. King Combs rapping at halftime (Puffy's kid). With some dude running around the court with a BAD BOY flag (which made me think of this Chappelle bit).

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JjLd3MufCE
All that and a basketball game too??
 

Saints Rest

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It was Disney World at Crypto.com. Clipper Darrell was right behind us, loud and in his clown outfit. They also had Chick-fil-A coupon parachutes come down in Q4, Xmas trivia contest, Kiss Cam, Karaoke Cam, Hug Cam, Sneak Up Cam, DJ Dense hype, Clipper Spirit Squad and then another group of Clipper girls running around the arena grinding banisters throwing t-shirts around along with Condor Clipper with his T-Shirt Gun. Flames and fireworks from behind the hoops. King Combs rapping at halftime (Puffy's kid). With some dude running around the court with a BAD BOY flag (which made me think of this Chappelle bit).

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JjLd3MufCE
Sounds like minor league baseball
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Clips have a promo where if you're a SoCal resident and were at the game, you get free chicken if an opponent misses two free throws in a row in the fourth quarter. I think the idea is that the Clippers fans are usually pretty reserved and have an arrive late and leave early reputation, so this gets them to be loud during free throws late.
Not just Clips but 'Wiz has same promotion and I think UT and PHI have it too. Among others.

In Chicago, attendees get a free hot dog: https://www.portillos.com/about/fourth-quarter-franks/
 

InstaFace

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It was Disney World at Crypto.com. Clipper Darrell was right behind us, loud and in his clown outfit. They also had Chick-fil-A coupon parachutes come down in Q4, Xmas trivia contest, Kiss Cam, Karaoke Cam, Hug Cam, Sneak Up Cam, DJ Dense hype, Clipper Spirit Squad and then another group of Clipper girls running around the arena grinding banisters throwing t-shirts around along with Condor Clipper with his T-Shirt Gun. Flames and fireworks from behind the hoops. King Combs rapping at halftime (Puffy's kid). With some dude running around the court with a BAD BOY flag (which made me think of this Chappelle bit).
That's not a basketball game, that's a "Stefon from SNL Weekend Update" bit.

This club has everything.
 

lovegtm

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Things seem...pretty ok right now?

4-2 on the toughest road trip of the season, predictable lack of energy in the last 3 games of it. Not having centers is never easy either.

Lost in the good start is the fact that they played a fairly tough schedule to get that start. There's a lot to fix, but the trend is good, and there are a lot of games to fix it, plus Rob returning soon.
 

Euclis20

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Things seem...pretty ok right now?

4-2 on the toughest road trip of the season, predictable lack of energy in the last 3 games of it. Not having centers is never easy either.

Lost in the good start is the fact that they played a fairly tough schedule to get that start. There's a lot to fix, but the trend is good, and there are a lot of games to fix it, plus Rob returning soon.
Can't be emphasized enough. 16 road games, nobody has played more (and the only current team in the top 12 in either conference with as many road games is Denver), and they've got easiest remaining schedule in the league.
 

lovegtm

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Can't be emphasized enough. 16 road games, nobody has played more (and the only current team in the top 12 in either conference with as many road games is Denver), and they've got easiest remaining schedule in the league.
Oh, so they do indeed have the easiest remaining schedule? It felt to me as if they had played a really really hard schedule, but good to see the data. (Yes, I know that their schedule will always look a bit easier since they don't have to play themselves.)
 

HomeRunBaker

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Yea, this trip has gone to your road trip script. Come out strong at the beginning. All 3 wins were high quality/high energy wins. Then a week of hotel life catches up to the team. Completely flat. PLUS multiple starts and larger roles from Blake/Kornet doesn't help (on the boards/shot blocking/switching).

Went to the game early last night, Smart (and Hauser) were front-rimming most 3pt attempts pre-game. Both JAYs 3PA were even more off with an L/R fade. The crowd went nutz when JB barely hit the right side of the rim on Q4 FTs for FREE Chick-fil-A.

I wouldn't expect much from them tonight, but if they can dig deep and find something it would be a high-quality win (even against an 11-15 Laker team).

Keith Smith laid it out here:

https://www.celticsblog.com/2022/12/13/23507193/back-to-back-bad-ones-8-takeaways-from-boston-celtics-la-clippers
Ultimate road trip energy script…..capped off by the .5 point OT cover! This team!
 

benhogan

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Ultimate road trip energy script…..capped off by the .5 point OT cover! This team!
Also the ultimate dig-deep game. Again, a game they lose last season.

CJM made a nice adjustment of sticking Kornet in at the end to protect the paint and stop the rim runs. PTL and Horford will help out a lot there in the future. The "not calling the TO" in the first half of the game is OKish. BUT I'm not a fan of ignoring TOs in the 2nd half of games during massive runs to not adjust lineups to stop something.

Jaylen Brown taking a challenged mid-ranger with 8 secs left on the shot clock (33 secs left in OT) up 6pts is flat-out DUMB. Of course, someone will retort that's a good shot for him. TIME, SCORE, SITUATION for crying out loud. Please, have one of our 3PGs or Tatum used to salt games away.
 

lovegtm

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Also the ultimate dig-deep game. Again, a game they lose last season.

CJM made a nice adjustment of sticking Kornet in at the end to protect the paint and stop the rim runs. PTL and Horford will help out a lot there in the future. The "not calling the TO" in the first half of the game is OKish. BUT I'm not a fan of ignoring TOs in the 2nd half of games during massive runs to not adjust lineups to stop something.

Jaylen Brown taking a challenged mid-ranger with 8 secs left on the shot clock (33 secs left in OT) up 6pts is flat-out DUMB. Of course, someone will retort that's a good shot for him. TIME, SCORE, SITUATION for crying out loud. Please, have one of our 3PGs or Tatum used to salt games away.
Like it or not, Joe has been making a conscious effort to get Jaylen more reps as a ballhandler and decision-maker.

Same principle for timeouts. I think he likes regular season wins, but thinks other things take precedence.

Is he right? We'll see.
 

benhogan

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Like it or not, Joe has been making a conscious effort to get Jaylen more reps as a ballhandler and decision-maker.

Same principle for timeouts. I think he likes regular season wins, but thinks other things take precedence.

Is he right? We'll see.
It's more about the clock than anything. Tatum ISO/pounds the ball to end quarters all the time because he understands clock/situation.
 

Auger34

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Also the ultimate dig-deep game. Again, a game they lose last season.

CJM made a nice adjustment of sticking Kornet in at the end to protect the paint and stop the rim runs. PTL and Horford will help out a lot there in the future. The "not calling the TO" in the first half of the game is OKish. BUT I'm not a fan of ignoring TOs in the 2nd half of games during massive runs to not adjust lineups to stop something.

Jaylen Brown taking a challenged mid-ranger with 8 secs left on the shot clock (33 secs left in OT) up 6pts is flat-out DUMB. Of course, someone will retort that's a good shot for him. TIME, SCORE, SITUATION for crying out loud. Please, have one of our 3PGs or Tatum used to salt games away.
Stupid decision where JB seemed to not understand the situation…but he also pretty clearly got fouled by Russ
 

Bleedred

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Like it or not, Joe has been making a conscious effort to get Jaylen more reps as a ballhandler and decision-maker.
I don't like it, as I still think JB has a low basketball IQ and makes poor decisions more often than most of our core players. I really hope someone is going over film with JB (i.e. the TIME, SCORE, SITUATION comment above). That said, it is really hard to complain about JB at all so far this year (and I've complained a lot about him over the years). He's been sensational, and if CJM wants to give him high leverage time with the ball at the end of games with the hope/expectation that he can become something even more than he has been, who am I to argue?
 

Jimbodandy

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I don't like it, as I still think JB has a low basketball IQ and makes poor decisions more often than most of our core players. I really hope someone is going over film with JB (i.e. the TIME, SCORE, SITUATION comment above). That said, it is really hard to complain about JB at all so far this year (and I've complained a lot about him over the years). He's been sensational, and if CJM wants to give him high leverage time with the ball at the end of games with the hope/expectation that he can become something even more than he has been, who am I to argue?
Guy is like a top-15/top-20 player on earth. I think that people will just always have a problem with him.
 

benhogan

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I don't like it, as I still think JB has a low basketball IQ and makes poor decisions more often than most of our core players. I really hope someone is going over film with JB (i.e. the TIME, SCORE, SITUATION comment above). That said, it is really hard to complain about JB at all so far this year (and I've complained a lot about him over the years). He's been sensational, and if CJM wants to give him high leverage time with the ball at the end of games with the hope/expectation that he can become something even more than he has been, who am I to argue?
Yea if we're willing to say Jaylen Brown is All-NBA material this year (which I have) then we can also say he has a low hoops IQ or skills that don't match salting games away. Seven years of watching him, he consistently makes great plays throughout games but also makes poor strategic decisions at the end (ie ECF Game 7 shots, turnover prone, handle issues).

It's the last minute or two of a late/close game, it's a very small mark against Jaylen. Boston has 3-4 better options for that spot at that point of the game. If CJM wants to use JB as PG/initiator in the middle of Q2 by all means experiment away.
 

Jimbodandy

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Yea if we're willing to say Jaylen Brown is All-NBA material this year (which I have) then we can also say he has a low hoops IQ or skills that don't match salting games away. Seven years of watching him, he consistently makes great plays throughout games but also makes poor strategic decisions at the end (ie ECF Game 7 shots, turnover prone, handle issues).

It's the last minute or two of a late/close game, it's a very small mark against Jaylen. Boston has 3-4 better options for that spot at that point of the game. If CJM wants to use JB as PG/initiator in the middle of Q2 by all means experiment away.
I have no beef with anyone saying that Jaylen is more prone to make late-game gaffes than say JT or Marcus, but the low BBIQ stuff is unfair imo. He's on a team of extremely smart guys, so he probably looks worse by comparison. But he's not JaVale or J.R. out there.
 

benhogan

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I have no beef with anyone saying that Jaylen is more prone to make late-game gaffes than say JT or Marcus, but the low BBIQ stuff is unfair imo. He's on a team of extremely smart guys, so he probably looks worse by comparison. But he's not JaVale or J.R. out there.
He looks mechanical sometimes, so the low BB IQ stuff could be unfair.
 

lars10

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Yea if we're willing to say Jaylen Brown is All-NBA material this year (which I have) then we can also say he has a low hoops IQ or skills that don't match salting games away. Seven years of watching him, he consistently makes great plays throughout games but also makes poor strategic decisions at the end (ie ECF Game 7 shots, turnover prone, handle issues).

It's the last minute or two of a late/close game, it's a very small mark against Jaylen. Boston has 3-4 better options for that spot at that point of the game. If CJM wants to use JB as PG/initiator in the middle of Q2 by all means experiment away.
Feels like this is is cherry picked. JB carried the Celts in a lot of the 4th quarters of the playoffs last year.. to say there are 3-4 better options? Just simply doesn’t pass the eye test. He does lose the ball at times but I don’t think it’s any more than a number of players on the team.. his going to the rim opens up the entire offense. Maybe you want Brogdon to have the ball instead? White? There’s certainly been a lot of words about how people don’t like the Tatum iso.. would be interesting to see if there’s any actual data to back up what you’re saying.
 

Jimbodandy

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Seems like you missed the last 2 sentences of my post about how JB has been sensational.
No, I know that you're not down on Jaylen. I'll shut up about this going forward, but to explain now--I think that the BBIQ stuff is unfair. He's more mechanical and has been building (and continues to build) his repertoire of moves and actions. He's continuing to develop, even at an age beyond when most people are done improving materially. He's a lot like Kawhi in the mechanical aspects of it, and that guy is like a robot now. Always makes the right play.

But regardless of how far Brown comes, he still has that tag of being clueless and having crappy handle. And it's constantly thrown around, particularly the handle, even when his turnover% has been in the ballpark of Tatum's. I don't understand it, but it is what it is.
 

bakahump

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I know I know......But anyone else think the Refs were pretty one sided in their fouls calls last night (and on the WC in general this trip)?

I know the number bear that out out and its not like the Celts refused to drive and avoided contact.

I get it....they are not gonna call many on the "King" but I was wondering if it was just my green tinted glasses or others felt the same.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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Agreed on JB's poor decision in OT last night, but my god has his fadeaway jumper become almost automatic. Late game, him hitting maybe three of those spin and fade 15 footers was absolutely crucial and all of them seemed like impossible shots when he took them. Swish.
 

benhogan

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Feels like this is is cherry picked. JB carried the Celts in a lot of the 4th quarters of the playoffs last year.. to say there are 3-4 better options? Just simply doesn’t pass the eye test. He does lose the ball at times but I don’t think it’s any more than a number of players on the team.. his going to the rim opens up the entire offense. Maybe you want Brogdon to have the ball instead? White? There’s certainly been a lot of words about how people don’t like the Tatum iso.. would be interesting to see if there’s any actual data to back up what you’re saying.
JBs career Asst/turnover ratio and his FT's have always been worse than Tatum, Brogdon, Smart, White.

Ball security & converting pressure FTs are two important metrics when you're "salting away" games. We don't even need to go into defensive assignments missed, shooting with extra shot clock time left, or the lack of calling a timeout prior to dribbling a missed free throw. But all those have happened with Jaylen. I like him, but it's there.

Giannis is the best player on the planet IMO.
As a Celtics fan, I'd still rather have him handling the ball at the end and trying to melt the clock than Jrue or Middleton. For similar reasons. BUT Coach Bud will avoid that, not because Giannis is "worse than Jrue or Kris" but because the situation dictates play/strategy.
 
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bakahump

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One game....But Brown missed 2 FTs last night in OT.....
Granted the kid played a helluva game and Tatum missed FTs earlier.
 

jmcc5400

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Agreed on JB's poor decision in OT last night, but my god has his fadeaway jumper become almost automatic. Late game, him hitting maybe three of those spin and fade 15 footers was absolutely crucial and all of them seemed like impossible shots when he took them. Swish.
The spin and hangtime are MJ-esque. What a weapon.

Agree with others that we can simultaneously hold the thought that Jaylen has been sensational while also furrowing our brows at his handle and, occasionally, decision-making. It's all part of the package. I don't think there's any real conflict in saying that down 2 with 33 seconds left, I am great with Jaylen having the ball and creating. But up 6 in the same situation, I'd as soon have someone less error-prone handling and going to the line.
 

Jimbodandy

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Just for reference, below is career and current/prior season turnover% for top 6 guys. Obviously some of these guys are superior passers, so their A/T rate is good (and some, less good). But purely from a turnover rate POV:

Player Career/Current/Last
Tatum: 10.4%/10.1%/10.9%
Brown: 11.5/11.8/11.6
Smart: 15.2/18.5/16.6
Horford: 11.2/9.1/9.6
White: 11.5/9.4/10.8
Brogdon: 11.7/15.0/11.1

My takeaways from this are 1. that Marcus's is the most turnover prone by far, while the others are all in the same ballpark, and 2. Horford/White are taking great care of the ball compared to career averages while Brogdon/Smart have been more hot potato than usual.
 

Euclis20

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Just for reference, below is career and current/prior season turnover% for top 6 guys. Obviously some of these guys are superior passers, so their A/T rate is good (and some, less good). But purely from a turnover rate POV:

Player Career/Current/Last
Tatum: 10.4%/10.1%/10.9%
Brown: 11.5/11.8/11.6
Smart: 15.2/18.5/16.6
Horford: 11.2/9.1/9.6
White: 11.5/9.4/10.8
Brogdon: 11.7/15.0/11.1

My takeaways from this are 1. that Marcus's is the most turnover prone by far, while the others are all in the same ballpark, and 2. Horford/White are taking great care of the ball compared to career averages while Brogdon/Smart have been more hot potato than usual.
Smart is 9th in assists and is 2nd in A/T rate among the top 10 (Haliburton is, remarkably, #1 in assists per game and has a better A/T rate than anyone in the top 30). I know you mention this above, but I think the main reason Smart has the worst TO% among the regulars is because he's the one doing most of the passing.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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I don't love it in "need to protect the ball" situations but there are a lot of instances where I find myself kind of clamoring for more JB midrange in games where the ball isn't moving well and things are stagnating or we are having trouble at the rim/not trying to get there. His ability to get clean looks at the FT line is really elite as long as he gets through the first line of D. That + Marcus posting up + Al pick and pops are some of my favorite grind-it-out plays if the tiki-taka isn't running at full steam and/or Tatum is off. But yeah, not optimal in certain endgame situations. LAC smoked us in the midrange the other night so maybe it's just top of mind.
 

Jimbodandy

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Smart is 9th in assists and is 2nd in A/T rate among the top 10 (Haliburton is, remarkably, #1 in assists per game and has a better A/T rate than anyone in the top 30). I know you mention this above, but I think the main reason Smart has the worst TO% among the regulars is because he's the one doing most of the passing.
Oh agreed. A lot of guys who pass the ball more are going to have that problem. Jaylen's getting better at vision and passing, but he's still not great. His turnover% should be even lower. Brogdon''s T% is higher for similar reasons but has spiked dramatically this year without a corresponding A% increase. Probably SSS or new system stuff. Just found the raw TO% interesting, especially Al's.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I posted it in the Tatum thread, but here’s where both Jay’s fall in the last 30 seconds of games. Both have been quite efficient, and Tatum has been lights out since 20-21. Jaylen is cut off in the first tweet unless you click on it, but he’s 10-23 (43.5%) since 17-18.

View: https://twitter.com/lissmx14/status/1603051993974689792?s=20&t=qOuAqT7I6canY21rsm1bFw
I think people forget how many of these Jaylen made from 2016-2020. Jaylen late game is the guy the C's went to before Tatum went TATUM.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sZgv7hXw18



Then there's these couple:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONyTVxKWGr4



View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52opyj2zajg



Jaylen has always seemed to have that Ray Allen, "let me take that final shot" mentality and he does it well, and I'm here for it.

I think Joe is trying to have Jaylen start with the ball in his hands, because it opens up Tatum to catch on the move or in a spot he wants to be, and if Tatum can't get open, he's now got the ball in Jaylen's hands to do what he does. Ending up with both of them covered and the ball in Marcus' hands with the clock going down is a recipe for disaster.
 

RorschachsMask

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One thing I’ve noticed so far this year (really SSS) is it’s even heavier Tatum action in crunch time, compared to the past. His usage in those situations is 33.3%, which is slightly up from last season (32.6%). Jaylen is at 25.4%, slightly down from last year (27.9%).

The sample is way too small this year to take anything from crunch time stats, but I did laugh when I saw the two lowest TS’s from Celtics players in those scenarios are Jaylen (51.5%) and Tatum at (59%). It makes sense as they take by far the majority of these shots, but Brogdon(90.9%), White(102.2), Grant (75.1%), and Smart (64.7%) have all really taken advantage of their open looks in crunch time.
 
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nighthob

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That list is a joke. There are three guys they have ranked in front of Tatum that clearly don't deserve it.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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Just in case you missed them, these are absolute gold content from KG's Showtime series:

View: https://youtu.be/Ic6Ko9XbaLs

View: https://youtu.be/88B9JvnS-l0


KG has gotten so much better as a host. More questions for the guests while not losing his enthusiasm.

The moment where he sighs and says he should have joined the Celtics sooner felt so genuine that it hurt.
 

nighthob

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12,772
There is no defense being calculated into any of this. All of the guys that are ranked too highly are on wanted posters in the defensive coaches room.
And it’s not like these guys are any better than Tatum offensively. Maybe Doncic is marginally better, but the defensive difference is fucking seismic.