2022-2023 General Celtics thread

jasail

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I doubt very highly that the Cs are going to sign any veteran big man because of their tax situation. From this article - https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/filling-out-celtics-2022-23-roster-taxing-situation - any veteran whom the Cs sign to a fully guaranteed contract only counts the minimum portion of the contract against the salary cap, but - and this is why the Cs won't sign someone unless they are sure that person is going to fit - if the Cs cut that player during the year, the Cs are on hook for the full amount of the contract.

I.e., for Carmelo, if the Cs signed him to a veteran one-year guaranteed minimum contract, Melo would get approximately $2.9M but the Cs would be on the hook for $1.8M. However, if the Cs cut Melo during the year, the Cs would then be on the hook for the full $2.9M, which brings the salary cap hit from approximately $8.1M to $13M. And while it's not our money, it's still real money.

The Cs are going to open the season with one or more of the Green Kornet, Luka, Cabin Jelly, and Vonleh and hopefully, one or more of these guys will show they can play above-average defense or offense. And if not, they will see what's available later on in the season.

I don't know if Vegas has bets on win totals before the ASB, but I'd probably go the under while the Cs try to figure this stuff out.
I know it's not my money and it's not my business, but to me that is not a commitment to winning from ownership. This team was about 4 minutes out from going up 3-1 in the finals before things went sideways and they lost the series. They are returning that core lineup and added some depth with Brogdon. They're in a good position as any to get back there again this year. Big man depth is likely going to be a serious flaw for this team and ownership is intent with that being the case for financial purposes.

The Warriors are the most successful franchise of the past decade and their ownership group is the best in the game. So, I ask myself, is this an approach the Warriors would take? I don't think it is. I am not a big fan of this ownership group, so I may be biased in saying this, but I really worry about the tone they are striking with their core players and to what extent this may impact this core's championship window. If I were JB-between the offseason rumors, the coaching debacle, and the commitment to roster building-I'd be looking for another city to ply my trade.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I know it's not my money and it's not my business, but to me that is not a commitment to winning from ownership. This team was about 4 minutes out from going up 3-1 in the finals before things went sideways and they lost the series. They are returning that core lineup and added some depth with Brogdon. They're in a good position as any to get back there again this year. Big man depth is likely going to be a serious flaw for this team and ownership is intent with that being the case for financial purposes.

The Warriors are the most successful franchise of the past decade and their ownership group is the best in the game. So, I ask myself, is this an approach the Warriors would take? I don't think it is. I am not a big fan of this ownership group, so I may be biased in saying this, but I really worry about the tone they are striking with their core players and to what extent this may impact this core's championship window. If I were JB-between the offseason rumors, the coaching debacle, and the commitment to roster building-I'd be looking for another city to ply my trade.
I don't think this is as binary as talk radio frames it. So, sure, there are the Mavs, GS, Clippers who literally don't care and will spend anything (though, even GS seems to have SOME limits). That's great for them. But there is also a huge difference between the Celtics owners and Sarver/Jordan etc. who won't go into the tax or contort their teams not to (generally at least). It's not really fair to say "either you spend everything it takes or you are not committeed to winning" because something like 25 teams won't do that.

Celtics have spent historically when they needed to, and they invested a lot this year. Sure, I'd love more---but fair for them to say there is some economic cost-benefit to incremental spending given what they already are writing a check for, imo.
 

jasail

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I don't think this is as binary as talk radio frames it. So, sure, there are the Mavs, GS, Clippers who literally don't care and will spend anything (though, even GS seems to have SOME limits). That's great for them. But there is also a huge difference between the Celtics owners and Sarver/Jordan etc. who won't go into the tax or contort their teams not to (generally at least). It's not really fair to say "either you spend everything it takes or you are not committeed to winning" because something like 25 teams won't do that.

Celtics have spent historically when they needed to, and they invested a lot this year. Sure, I'd love more---but fair for them to say there is some economic cost-benefit to incremental spending given what they already are writing a check for, imo.
I don't disagree that it's a non-binary situation. For me, it is not always "spend or you don't care" let alone "spend everything our your not committed". I think context is critical and its the context that underscores my frustration.

The C's have a young core with an immediate Banner 18 window. Their weakness at the start of the offseason was big man bench depth and this weakness is now even more substantial following injuries. This roster issue will not only impact their performance in terms of regular season wins and losses, but may also impact the productivity of the entire roster over the course of the season and post-season. Improving bench depth with vet min contracts is an area where cash can patch the hole, but the cash wasn't used to patch it when it was more of a luxury and is still not being used to patch it given the worsening roster situation. To me, it may be preferred financial management, but it is not good roster management and its not good optics.

Additionally, in the NBA, if you are a contender and you are not managing the team with consideration of how decisions may impact your star players, you are mismanaging your asset. That is not to say that JB and JT should have veto power on every decision, but how decision making may impact their morale needs to be considered in how the organization is managed. It's a players league, and while the billionaires may own the franchise, the millionaires control them.

The C's are in an enviable position. I came up in the middle-end of the Big 3 era, so short of the day they drafted Len Bias, I can't remember a time in my life where they were better situated. They have a great core and window that could stay open for the next 5-10 years if they manage it properly. We know all too well this situation does not happen with great frequency; there is a better chance that Pitino walks through the door than Bird. If ownership and the front office blow this window or close it prematurely, it may be 10-20 years before this team is actually competitive again. The franchise may be storied, but players haven't been beating down the door to come to Boston and the city has a legacy it can't escape from. So yes, I worry about the cumulative impacts of ownership's decision making, particularly this offseason in their handling of the JB situation, of the Ime situation, and the roster building coming off a near championship.
 
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the moops

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Not signing a veteran big, who is in all likelihood only marginally better than the Kornet/Vonleh/etc crew says absolutely nothing about their “commitment to winning”. A lot of championship contenders have early season injuries and don’t panic and sign a guy for signing a guy. There is plenty of time to sort out what you have and more importantly what other teams have.
 

jasail

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Not signing a veteran big, who is in all likelihood only marginally better than the Kornet/Vonleh/etc crew says absolutely nothing about their “commitment to winning”. A lot of championship contenders have early season injuries and don’t panic and sign a guy for signing a guy. There is plenty of time to sort out what you have and more importantly what other teams have.
There is a huge difference between trading a bunch of assets to bring in Myles Turner to be the starting C and signing a known commodity to a vet min deal to provide more bench depth and rotational flexibility. One is panicking, the other is a marginal step to benefit the team. C'mon.
 

Jimbodandy

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There is a huge difference between trading a bunch of assets to bring in Myles Turner to be the starting C and signing a known commodity to a vet min deal to provide more bench depth and rotational flexibility. One is panicking, the other is a marginal step to benefit the team. C'mon.
There's also benefit to seeing what you actually have first and bringing in or trading for a guy later. It's not like we have to lock a guy down now. We have trade exceptions to use. And frankly, who is readily available who is definitely an upgrade? The guys that are out there are available for a reason.
 

shoelace

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but it is not good roster management and its not good optics.

Additionally, in the NBA, if you are a contender and you are not managing the team with consideration of how decisions may impact your star players, you are mismanaging your asset. That is not to say that JB and JT should have veto power on every decision, but how decision making may impact their morale needs to be considered in how the organization is managed. It's a players league, and while the billionaires may own the franchise, the millionaires control them.
The Celtics already showed this commitment by going into the tax to trade for and pay Jaylen Brown's friend Malcolm Brodgon. And they did this by singing Gallinari, who unfortunately was injured. If Jaylen Brown or Jayston Tatum want to leave the Celtics because they won't sign Dwight Howard or whoever you are imagining at this point, then they have no intention of staying with the Celtics beyond the duration of their contracts anyway. I would also add that this is fundamentally unknowable, and not worth speculating on before they've even played a preseason game.

Having had the chance now to live in Atlanta and Los Angeles in addition to Boston, it becomes clear that not every group of sports fans tries to imagine problems that don't exist. It's either a specifically regional thing or Boston sports talk radio has really poisoned people's brains. People in those other places don't listen to that shit, and they have healthier relationships with their teams for that reason. This reads like a Felger-esque "cap is crap" argument, which ignores the point made above that every owner does not have limitless funds, and that the vast majority of teams do adjust their spending and behavior in the face of the repeater tax. The Celtics are choosing to take a wait and see approach, it seems. Shitty free agent bigs will still be there in the future. Wasting money on a player you might end up waiving when fully healthy is a poor use of resources.
 
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benhogan

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There's also benefit to seeing what you actually have first and bringing in or trading for a guy later. It's not like we have to lock a guy down now. We have trade exceptions to use. And frankly, who is readily available who is definitely an upgrade? The guys that are out there are available for a reason.
I'm mildly interested in seeing if Kornet, Kabengele, Vonleh have anything to offer. Set screens, roll, play D.

Worse comes to worst, Poeltl will probably be available this winter
 

HomeRunBaker

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Kornet looks like one of those stock photos that The Onion uses. Ironically, that Tweet sounds like something that would come from The Onion.
 

HomeRunBaker

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And I, a Boston (ok, Boston suburb) transplant who has lived in LA for thirty years responds angrily by saying to myself why would he want to stay in -.- -
Fairly new wife and two children. They just moved their life across the country a year ago. That’s asking a lot for a lateral move and it isn’t like he’d be leaving a dumpster fire in LA while quite possibly entering one in Boston.
 

jmcc5400

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Fairly new wife and two children. They just moved their life across the country a year ago. That’s asking a lot for a lateral move and it isn’t like he’d be leaving a dumpster fire in LA while quite possibly entering one in Boston.
Oh, sure. I was just making fun of my own hypocrisy.
 

Fishy1

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I remember last year hearing the a similar story about how well Juancho was playing, and not much later he was released.

I'm not super worried about Kornet getting playing time. If he's starting, whatever, he's fine and would actually be useful if he figured out his jump shot, but the defense on the whole will probably be middle of the road rather than the best of the world with him out there.

Hopefully the upgrade on offense adding Brogdon into the mix will make up for that in the meantime.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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There is a huge difference between trading a bunch of assets to bring in Myles Turner to be the starting C and signing a known commodity to a vet min deal to provide more bench depth and rotational flexibility. One is panicking, the other is a marginal step to benefit the team. C'mon.
Just because you are saying that they are a "known quantity," that doesn't mean that each of them will be a marginal step up. That also doesn't preclude the Cs from signing any one of them or getting someone else later on in the season. Once the Cs sign a veteran (to the presumably guaranteed deal), they are stuck with that guy. Having some flexibility at this stage isn't a bad thing.

I'd feel better about Kornet starting if he could hit more than 32.5% of the 3Ps. Hopefully he's worked on that.
 

Jimbodandy

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We went from Time Lord to Travis Knight redux. I'm sad.
Thanks for bringing back some bad memories of that experience.

FWIW, while I agree that there's no reason the be excited by Kornet, I'll say that he provides something resembling actual big defense that a guy like Knight wouldn't. It's hard to find measurements on Knight (I gave up), but Kornet has a 9'6" standing reach. Metrics are useless due to SSS, but I suspect that they like what Kornet gives them defensively. He's a drop-only guy, so it complicates the defense. But Knight, despite the money that he made, wouldn't help for shit on defense. I'll take the guy with arms that don't quit and figure it out for a while.
 
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Euclis20

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Fairly new wife and two children. They just moved their life across the country a year ago. That’s asking a lot for a lateral move and it isn’t like he’d be leaving a dumpster fire in LA while quite possibly entering one in Boston.
The allure of the Boston job would be that there's a reasonable chance that the Celtics will need a new HC next summer, and this helps move Larranaga to the front of the line. It's understandable if that's not enough, but it is the biggest positive for moving to Boston.
 

TripleOT

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The allure of the Boston job would be that there's a reasonable chance that the Celtics will need a new HC next summer, and this helps move Larranaga to the front of the line. It's understandable if that's not enough, but it is the biggest positive for moving to Boston.
But Larranaga was already spurned once by the Celtics, with the guy he’d be second chair to being the only coach retained when he and the rest of Brad Steven’s staff was let go when Udoka was hired. I can see why he wanted to remain with the Clippers.
 

HomeRunBaker

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The allure of the Boston job would be that there's a reasonable chance that the Celtics will need a new HC next summer, and this helps move Larranaga to the front of the line. It's understandable if that's not enough, but it is the biggest positive for moving to Boston.
Then problem with this thinking is that if Boston is looking for a new coach it will be because JM and/or the team failed and Larranaga was a part of that staff/team which failed.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Then problem with this thinking is that if Boston is looking for a new coach it will be because JM and/or the team failed and Larranaga was a part of that staff/team which failed.
Agree with this. Plus Larranaga has been passed over in Boston a few times if I recall correctly.
 

Euclis20

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Then problem with this thinking is that if Boston is looking for a new coach it will be because JM and/or the team failed and Larranaga was a part of that staff/team which failed.
Yeah it's a narrow road he'd have to walk, so it's not surprising that he's staying in LA. My only point is that there was a path here to be the HC of a title contender soon, albeit unlikely.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Thanks for bringing back some bad memories of that experience.

FWIW, while I agree that there's no reason the be excited by Kornet, I'll say that he provides something resembling actual big defense that a guy like Knight wouldn't. It's hard to find measurements on Knight (I gave up), but Kornet has a 9'6" standing reach. Metrics are useless due to SSS, but I suspect that they like what Kornet gives them defensively. He's a drop-only guy, so it complicates the defense. But Knight, despite the money that he made, wouldn't help for shit on defense. I'll take the guy with arms that don't quit and figure it out for a while.
There is also the fact that he is what they have right now, and maybe the safest place to put him is with the other starters. It keeps Al at his preferred #4. If they have something in him this would be his best chance to show it.
The allure of the Boston job would be that there's a reasonable chance that the Celtics will need a new HC next summer, and this helps move Larranaga to the front of the line. It's understandable if that's not enough, but it is the biggest positive for moving to Boston.
Fools gold, from Larranaga's point of view. If 1) Ime is truly gone and 2) Mazzulla is a flop, the Celtics will not be seeking to hire an internal candidate.
 

Bleedred

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Fools gold, from Larranaga's point of view. If 1) Ime is truly gone and 2) Mazzulla is a flop, the Celtics will not be seeking to hire an internal candidate.
Right. If he covets the Celtics head coaching, it is substantially more likely that he will be in a better position to be hired from LA next year after a successful LA season, rather than from the bench of a Celtics team that is looking to replace its HC.
 

jasail

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Blake Griffin coming to Boston to give them some sorely needed big man depth. Per my complaints up thread, I'm happy to see them do it. He's a poor man's Gallo replacement. Still think they are thin up front, but hopefully Vonleh can give them some of what we lost in Rob.
 

benhogan

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Keith Smith does a nice job with rotations/mins dist. thoughts.

(It was pre-Blake)
I could see BG taking Kornet's 12 minutes if Luke fails. I'm still not sure if Kornet is any better than Kabengele

While Rob Williams is out, a rough minutes’ distribution could look something like this:

Starters

Luke Kornet – 12

Al Horford – 28

Jayson Tatum – 33

Jaylen Brown – 33

Marcus Smart – 30

Reserves

Malcolm Brogdon – 28

Grant Williams – 28

Derrick White – 28

Payton Pritchard – 10

Sam Hauser – 10



https://www.celticsblog.com/2022/9/30/23380422/how-the-boston-celtics-might-rework-their-rotation
 

Jimbodandy

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The more that I look at this rotation, the harder time that I have imagining PP getting that kind of minutes.

It seems like his competition for minutes is Hauser, with ballhandling basically covered absent injuries.
 

benhogan

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The more that I look at this rotation, the harder time that I have imagining PP getting that kind of minutes.

It seems like his competition for minutes is Hauser, with ballhandling basically covered absent injuries.
If PP shows progress and MB can stay healthy Brad could turn around and use White or PP as trade chips to land a rotational BIG+++

TL's injury history + Al's age may force Brad's trade hand if the buyout market doesn't turn up something useful...A few months away from that.

Also still get to see if one of the Kornet/Vonleh/BG/Kabengele crew shows us something
 

Eddie Jurak

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The first preseason game was a real turnoverfest for the Celtics, but despite the TOs they crushed Charlotte, carrying a 20 point lead for most of the game and just destroying Charlotte in the garbage 4th.

Interesting things:

With center injuries, the Celtics went "small" with Al at the 5 and White starting with Smart in the backcourt. Then in the second half they went bigger, starting Vonleh instead of White. They also played a weird lineup for a couple of minutes that had Tatum and Brown as the bigswith Smart, White, and Brogdon. Having a backcourt with that kind of size gives the Celtics some flexibility.

As a team, for the game, the Celtics had 41 assists on 48 made baskets, shot 22 of 47 from three. The only bad thing was the 23 turnovers.

Brown shot well and scored 24, Tatum shot poorly and scored 16, both turned it over a lot. Al tuned up flawlessly with 8 points, 5 rebounds, 4 assists in 17 minutes. Smart was Smart, turned it over 4 times.

The bench guys were more interesting:

Brogdon came in for the last 5-6 minutes of the first half and looked rusty. Turned the ball over twice. Then he settled down and had 6 assists in the second quarter, including setting up threes from the likes of Hauser and Grant.

Grant looked to be a little quicker when driving it than he has previously shown. Didn't play much (13 minutes) but scored 8 points and added 4 assists including a couple of nice passes.

Sam Hauser did what he was supposed to do: shoot the lights out, hitting 4 of 5 threes (all catch and shoot attempts). He also drove and had a nice lob for a Kabangele finish, and made a nice cut for a layup (his only 2 point attempt).

Mfiondu Kabangele entered the game late in the first half and immediately picked up an offensive foul trying to set a screen. Then he entered the game in the second half and was immediately called for a (defensive) goaltend. But he also scored 10 points on 4-4 shooting that included an offensive reound and difficult putback, finishing a lob from Hauser, and hitting a three.

Payton Pritchard drilled his first 3 but did not shoot well after that, but did pick up 5 sssists in 17 minutes.

Last but not least, JD Davison. He played the last 6 (admittedly preseason garbage time) minutes and just looked great. He pushed the ball, saw the floor, got to his spots on the floor, and played D. He shot 2-3 from the field (the miss being a layup that rolled off the rim) and finished with 4 points and 4 assists. A couple of nicely thrown lobs. While he was pushing it and looking to drive, he knew where his teammates were and how to get them the ball. I think NBA preseason play is a step up from NBA summer league play, and Davison seems to be the type of player who benefits from that. Anyway, great value with the #53 pick. I still think he's a project who will spend most of his time in Maine this year, but I think they might have something with this kid.

 

lovegtm

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The Hornets tried to target Hauser via switches a lot early on, and he held up well. Encouraging (since we already knew he can shoot the lights out).
 

benhogan

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Nice Celtic day after weeks of crap

Hauser's ability to move his hips/feet on the perimeter was the story today. Also high IQ with the perimeter switching, his discipline will make him very playable VS. opposing 2nd units.

Kabangele's energy is exactly what he needs to do in TL's absence. Wouldn't mind seeing him get some run w/the starters

Grant looked confident, all quiet on extension talks there. If he goes to RFA, 100% Trust In Brad
 

TripleOT

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From the three comments above mine here, the people who post on here are in mid season form. Solid recap of the key things from the first pre-season game.

The bench is going to stretch out a lot of leads in second quarters if Brogdon stays healthy.

I really like that Grant Williams drove the ball today, and was successful. If he does add a driving element to his game, it obviously is gonna make him a lot better.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Did not see game, but agree on Grant---if he can drive and dish on top of having solid (not even last year's level) three point game it really impacts the offense in a very positive way. We saw flashes of that in the playoffs, but was inconsistent. He is a good passer, so it's not inconceivable. Fingers crossed...
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I thought Brogdon looked great; really just what the second unit needed. When he was handling the ball, he was pretty completely in control of the game and made great decisions. Shot the 3P, drove and dished, and drove and scored. Hope he stays healthy with limited minutes.

It was interesting that Vonleh started the 2nd half with the starters. Yes he had a five fouls but a couple of them were of the "too enthusiastic" variety. I thought he moved his feet well on the perimeter and even hit a 3P. Seems like he is ahead of Cabin Jelly. Hopefully Cabin Jelly will take a 2-way to play on this team as he seems like a credible bench piece and we could use the depth.

By my count, Derrick White went 1-3 from 3P. The one he made had more arc than I remember. I hope he really worked on this shot over the off-season.

Last but not least, JD Davison. He played the last 6 (admittedly preseason garbage time) minutes and just looked great. He pushed the ball, saw the floor, got to his spots on the floor, and played D. He shot 2-3 from the field (the miss being a layup that rolled off the rim) and finished with 4 points and 4 assists. A couple of nicely thrown lobs. While he was pushing it and looking to drive, he knew where his teammates were and how to get them the ball. I think NBA preseason play is a step up from NBA summer league play, and Davison seems to be the type of player who benefits from that. Anyway, great value with the #53 pick. I still think he's a project who will spend most of his time in Maine this year, but I think they might have something with this kid.
Agree that Davison looked good. He certainly has the athletic tools to play in the NBA and the game doesn't seem too fast for him. Will be interested in seeing how well he shoots at Maine. If he can consistently shoot, they definitely got a steal because he looks like he can do everything else on a NBA level.
 

chilidawg

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Kabengele is on a 2 way already. Nice to see both him and Vonleh have good games.

C's bigs combined to go 6/7 from 3. Gonna be a long season for the rest of the league if our bigs shoot well.
 

The Mort Report

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This blows my mind, but I just realized I don't know if I know the NBA's rules on an injured player like Gallo. Does he have to be one of the 15 roster spots? I'm kinda surprised the NBA doesn't have an IR, seems a bit dated. I know there is the hardship rule but I thought that was if multiple players were unavailable. What are the team options with him and the roster? After watching today I have 13 guys with rosters spots, then the 2 2ways, not including Gallo