2020 PGA Tour

TFP

Dope
Dope
Dec 10, 2007
18,013
Well the Tour just got hundreds of millions of dollars in TV contracts on the backs of Rory, Tiger, Brooks, etc and none of it goes to them directly. I think there's a general sentiment that the best of the best are driving the revenue but not getting the rewards for it (unless they win). Not sure if that's fair or not, but it's the perception at the moment.

There's also some resentment (I think) that they're forced to choose between the PGA Tour and the European Tour, and the European gets a significant advantage in the OWGR. I think the ultimate result is that the PGA Tour buys the European Tour and creates a unified World Golf Tour, where some of the bigger Euro events take premiere status relegating existing PGA events to B type tournaments (like they are now). Early season events and off week events (aka the John Deere) are just souped up Korn Ferry Tour playoff events basically, so it makes sense.

I like that it's forcing change and innovation, hopefully.
 

Comfortably Lomb

Koko the Monkey
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Feb 22, 2004
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Consistently stronger and smaller fields might help vs. the current roster of filler events after the majors and very small handful of meaningful regular season stops. Cynically, this really just seems to be is a way for the Top 50 to get a bigger share of the pie. Whatever.

Team play is an abomination though. Golf is a sport of pure individual achievement. The Ryder Cup leverages history, infrequency, and being the only team event anyone actual cares about. After that these guys shouldn’t be wasting their time with team events.
 
I think the ultimate result is that the PGA Tour buys the European Tour and creates a unified World Golf Tour
This would have very interesting ramifications for the Ryder Cup.
Team play is an abomination though. Golf is a sport of pure individual achievement. The Ryder Cup leverages history, infrequency, and being the only team event anyone actual cares about. After that these guys shouldn’t be wasting their time with team events.
I listened to the whole NLU podcast as well, and while the guy who brought up the idea of a team event in the style of most college golf tournaments didn't get a lot of traction, for me that's by far the best way to make a team event work within the context of a "Premier Golf League" like this: if you have four-man teams, take the best three scores each round for each team and add them up to determine the team winner and standings at the end of the tournament. It wouldn't change anything about how the golf itself would be played, except that every score would matter for the team competition, and so in theory every golfer on the course (even those starting their final rounds on the back nine at the bottom of the leaderboard) could play critical shots right down to the end of the event. This would work brilliantly in the context of a Formula 1-type team model, which seems to be what the founders have in mind...not this:
I actually don't think they need to pry the best players, they can use regionality and fandom to promote the "teams". I've floated this idea around in my head for years and think it would work, but you need to sell it as The Boston Drivers vs. The New York Knickers and have teams have home courses and whatnot.
I don't think this model has any prayer of working any better than Team Tennis did - that's the obvious structural comparison to what you've proposed. Geographically based teams work in the Indian Premier League cricket tournament (another competition to which the Premier Golf League might be reasonably compared in other aspects, including the idea of an artificial-but-still-awesome team draft) because that's fundamentally a team sport, and teams can only play other teams, and those teams have to be based somewhere, and the IPL has managed to scoop up absolutely every quality T20 cricket player in the world, which in turn makes people excited about supporting specific teams. But in golf, as in tennis, events are really only compelling when everyone is playing at the same place at the same time, all competing for supremacy simultaneously as individuals (or as national teams, as with the Davis Cup and the Ryder Cup). A four-on-four showdown between "Boston" and "New York" in front of a minuscule crowd will look like a bad exhibition, not a worthy rival to the PGA Tour.

I started listening to the NLU podcast thinking that the idea of a Premier Golf League was a bad joke, no better than Greg Norman's "World Tour" idea from the mid-90s...but I came out of it actually kinda excited about it. I do shudder at the thought of how bad the courses they're likely to pick would be (as the NLU guys themselves suggested), and if executed poorly the PGL could be a real setback for professional golf. But my head explodes - in a good way - at the possibilities this concept *could* encompass, and if it's executed well, this absolutely could be a game-changer.
 
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cshea

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FWIW, Mickelson player a pro-am round with the PGL founders today in Saudi Arabia. He seems to be a guy ripe for the picking here for the PGL. This seems right up Phil’s wheelhouse. PGA Tour days winding down, always looking to make a dollar. Prime owner/player candidate, would be a big enough splash to create a buzz and maybe get others to follow.

View: https://twitter.com/geoffshac/status/1222623715059355648?s=21


Apparently the PGA Tour has told players that a lot of the financing for the PGL comes from Saudi interests.

Edit: Also, lord knows I’m not the biggest Shackelford fan in the world but he’s done the best reporting on it, if anyone is looking for more info. He has the press release that the NLU guys were looking at posted on his site.
 

TFP

Dope
Dope
Dec 10, 2007
18,013
This would have very interesting ramifications for the Ryder Cup.
Would it though? Why would it change at all? It could still be USA vs Europe, still on the same schedule, the history is there so it doesn't change. It's just one body planning it/benefitting from it. And as NLU said, the Ryder Cup every 4th year basically funds the European Tour the other 3. I think it would be interesting to have the year long tour cover USA and Europe for the best players, opening up some interesting courses and relegating some of the boring US parkland courses to secondary/B level event status.

On this topic of improving the golf viewer experience - why is PGA Tour Live so bad? It's like a low budget/hamfisted version of the same golf coverage we see on NBC, except we actually have to pay for it. There are golf nerds watching it and they treat the viewers like they're idiots, and they don't do ANYTHING innovative. I'd love to see them mic up the players/caddies, test out different coverage innovations, and get actual interesting announcers, not ones that literally put me to sleep during the work day. /endrant

Edit: Just saw that PGA Tour Live is going to ESPN+ next year. That actually gives me hope. https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2020/1/28/ap-espn-to-land-pga-tour-live-rights
 
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Comfortably Lomb

Koko the Monkey
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Feb 22, 2004
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Here’s the thing about professional golf: it only really matters a handful of times a year. The 4 majors, then depending on how you feel about each of the Players and Ryder Cup. I’m not sure the Memorial or Fedex/Tour Championship are on that level. Even the WGC stuff is ultimately whateversville and those events try to have strong fields. Everything below that? Just pure stats padding events.

They can rejigger a new tour however they want, and it may make more money or at least redistribute it, but I doubt it makes non-major play more relevant.
 

FL4WL3SS

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Here’s the thing about professional golf: it only really matters a handful of times a year. The 4 majors, then depending on how you feel about each of the Players and Ryder Cup. I’m not sure the Memorial or Fedex/Tour Championship are on that level. Even the WGC stuff is ultimately whateversville and those events try to have strong fields. Everything below that? Just pure stats padding events.

They can rejigger a new tour however they want, and it may make more money or at least redistribute it, but I doubt it makes non-major play more relevant.
You could say this about any non-NFL sport. The only thing that matters is the playoffs. I don't really get your point, it's entertainment.
 
Would it though? Why would it change at all? It could still be USA vs Europe, still on the same schedule, the history is there so it doesn't change. It's just one body planning it/benefitting from it. And as NLU said, the Ryder Cup every 4th year basically funds the European Tour the other 3. I think it would be interesting to have the year long tour cover USA and Europe for the best players, opening up some interesting courses and relegating some of the boring US parkland courses to secondary/B level event status.
As you noted, the Ryder Cup is the European Tour's cash cow, and the Tour does everything it can to milk more cash from the cow. Merging the PGA Tour and the European Tour would probably mean Europe doesn't have to whore itself out to the highest bidder - maybe we could get a Ryder Cup at a great links venue, or even a great inland course in Europe, instead of it always being at the frigging Belfry or the K Club or Celtic Manor (etc.). It would also mean Team Europe wouldn't have to rig its selection process to force marquee players to play in European Tour events; the Paul Caseys of the world would have to fear being omitted because of where they choose to play. And from the American perspective, don't forget that the PGA of America controls Team USA's half of the event; if the PGA Tour were to control the European Tour, they would control half of the event, and the politics of that dynamic could be amazing. (At the moment, the PGA Tour has the President's Cup; give it half of the Ryder Cup as well, and the whole landscape of international team golf might change.)
 

TFP

Dope
Dope
Dec 10, 2007
18,013
As you noted, the Ryder Cup is the European Tour's cash cow, and the Tour does everything it can to milk more cash from the cow. Merging the PGA Tour and the European Tour would probably mean Europe doesn't have to whore itself out to the highest bidder - maybe we could get a Ryder Cup at a great links venue, or even a great inland course in Europe, instead of it always being at the frigging Belfry or the K Club or Celtic Manor (etc.). It would also mean Team Europe wouldn't have to rig its selection process to force marquee players to play in European Tour events; the Paul Caseys of the world would have to fear being omitted because of where they choose to play. And from the American perspective, don't forget that the PGA of America controls Team USA's half of the event; if the PGA Tour were to control the European Tour, they would control half of the event, and the politics of that dynamic could be amazing. (At the moment, the PGA Tour has the President's Cup; give it half of the Ryder Cup as well, and the whole landscape of international team golf might change.)
Ahhh I see what you're saying. Yep, those are all good points, haha. I forgot USA was controlled by PGA of America, not PGA Tour, which I agree would make another interesting dynamic.
 

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat

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He was once number 1 and now he's 55th. And he hasn't competed for a win in a tournament in 3 years. It's not a great trajectory.
Of course it isn't. But it's a big leap from that to finished at 26.
He did finish T3 at the PGA last year. It's not like he's done nothing but miss cuts for three years.
 

TFP

Dope
Dope
Dec 10, 2007
18,013
It's happened before. It would not be unprecedented for a phenom to disappear from the rankings.
Show your work then. Who is the comparable? Why is he done at 51st in the world? Is Keegan Bradley done? He missed the cut at Mayakoba recently.

He has 4 top 10s in his last 15 tournaments, but yeah he hasn’t competed at all. Charles Howell III went a decade between wins and is still cranking on Tour. What a ridiculous statement.
 

johnmd20

figuratively like ebola
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Show your work then. Who is the comparable? Why is he done at 51st in the world? Is Keegan Bradley done? He missed the cut at Mayakoba recently.

He has 4 top 10s in his last 15 tournaments, but yeah he hasn’t competed at all. Charles Howell III went a decade between wins and is still cranking on Tour. What a ridiculous statement.
You are always so aggressive. It's so weird. You could speak with a gentler voice, you don't always have to be a sarcastic asshole.

David Duval would be a pretty good comp. Nick Faldo. Ian Baker Finch. Anthony Kim. Trevor Immelman. It is not unprecedented for a phenom to just have his game fall apart. 4 top 10s in 15 tournaments, never being remotely close to a win, absolutely sucks for a golfer who was once ranked #1 and a 3 time major winner.

Further, he hasn't competed on a Sunday in a tournament in over 2 years. His high finishes are always due to a rally on the last day, after he's out of it. And when he has a great Thursday and Friday, he falls apart on Saturday. Spieth had one of the worst scores on Saturdays last year.

He missed the President's Cup. He's not ranked in the top 50. He hasn't competed in a tournament is years. He's finished as a top golfer. It's not an aggressive statement.

edit - Keegan Bradley isn't in the same galaxy as Spieth, when it comes to their peaks as a golfer. He won one major. But he's never been close to the best. You show your fucking work, asshole.
 

Comfortably Lomb

Koko the Monkey
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Feb 22, 2004
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How is "done" being defined here? Kicking around on tour for another decade or two, maybe winning once or twice, and never being a top tier player is pretty crispy for a guy like Jordan who was a dominant force for a couple years.
 

TFP

Dope
Dope
Dec 10, 2007
18,013
Nick Faldo won the Masters at 38 years old! David Duval won a major at 30. Trevor Immelman was a PGA rookie of the year at age 27, one year older than Spieth is now. That’s your response?

You were the one who said he was finished, not me. You didn’t say “finished as a top 10 player” or “he’ll never win a major again” or “he’s struggling right now”. You said “he seems to be finished”. I don’t have any work to show here, I just wanted you to show yours since it was your statement.

Don’t get so defensive because you made a shitty, thoughtless post and are trying to move to a more reasonable position while also still being really really wrong.

Lastly, I may keep the company of some sarcastic assholes on this board, but I generally am pretty low key and try to be a nice guy and don’t make things personal here (with varying degrees of success). But you seem to always lash out when someone calls you on your posts and make things personal for no reason. You might want to turn inward and realize that it’s ok to say “yeah I didn’t really think that one through, you’re right.”
 

TFP

Dope
Dope
Dec 10, 2007
18,013
How is "done" being defined here? Kicking around on tour for another decade or two, maybe winning once or twice, and never being a top tier player is pretty crispy for a guy like Jordan who was a dominant force for a couple years.
My interpretation of “Finished” means finished with his PGA Tour card.
 

TFP

Dope
Dope
Dec 10, 2007
18,013
Oh, yea, I don't think that's going to happen for a while. He's going to linger for a long time and it's going to get sadder and sadder.
Maybe so. I personally think he’s too young and too talented to not at least win again on tour, he’s gonna be there for another 10 years. But it’s certainly reasonable to say he might stay grinding out here for years and never get his old form back, but there’s still a lot left to be seen before that’s anywhere close to a definite.
 

johnmd20

figuratively like ebola
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Nick Faldo won the Masters at 38 years old! David Duval won a major at 30. Trevor Immelman was a PGA rookie of the year at age 27, one year older than Spieth is now. That’s your response?

You were the one who said he was finished, not me. You didn’t say “finished as a top 10 player” or “he’ll never win a major again” or “he’s struggling right now”. You said “he seems to be finished”. I don’t have any work to show here, I just wanted you to show yours since it was your statement.

Don’t get so defensive because you made a shitty, thoughtless post and are trying to move to a more reasonable position while also still being really really wrong.

Lastly, I may keep the company of some sarcastic assholes on this board, but I generally am pretty low key and try to be a nice guy and don’t make things personal here (with varying degrees of success). But you seem to always lash out when someone calls you on your posts and make things personal for no reason. You might want to turn inward and realize that it’s ok to say “yeah I didn’t really think that one through, you’re right.”
Ok.

And we'll see who's right. I think Spieth is finished as an elite player and he's going to just muddle around for years. You cannot state that position is incorrect, because you don't know. What I do know is in the last two years Spieth has gone from being #1 in the world to number #55.

Do you argue that fact?

And stop with the projection, I don't need to look inward because you are an asshole. That's not my problem.
 

FL4WL3SS

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Jul 31, 2006
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Ok.

And we'll see who's right. I think Spieth is finished as an elite player and he's going to just muddle around for years. You cannot state that position is incorrect, because you don't know. What I do know is in the last two years Spieth has gone from being #1 in the world to number #55.

Do you argue that fact?

And stop with the projection, I don't need to look inward because you are an asshole. That's not my problem.
I'm so glad I un-ignored you for this. This is amazing.

:popcorn:
 

barbed wire Bob

crippled by fear
SoSH Member
You are always so aggressive. It's so weird. You could speak with a gentler voice, you don't always have to be a sarcastic asshole.

David Duval would be a pretty good comp. Nick Faldo. Ian Baker Finch. Anthony Kim. Trevor Immelman. It is not unprecedented for a phenom to just have his game fall apart. 4 top 10s in 15 tournaments, never being remotely close to a win, absolutely sucks for a golfer who was once ranked #1 and a 3 time major winner.

Further, he hasn't competed on a Sunday in a tournament in over 2 years. His high finishes are always due to a rally on the last day, after he's out of it. And when he has a great Thursday and Friday, he falls apart on Saturday. Spieth had one of the worst scores on Saturdays last year.

He missed the President's Cup. He's not ranked in the top 50. He hasn't competed in a tournament is years. He's finished as a top golfer. It's not an aggressive statement.

edit - Keegan Bradley isn't in the same galaxy as Spieth, when it comes to their peaks as a golfer. He won one major. But he's never been close to the best. You show your fucking work, asshole.
Nick Faldo won the Masters at 38 years old! David Duval won a major at 30. Trevor Immelman was a PGA rookie of the year at age 27, one year older than Spieth is now. That’s your response?

You were the one who said he was finished, not me. You didn’t say “finished as a top 10 player” or “he’ll never win a major again” or “he’s struggling right now”. You said “he seems to be finished”. I don’t have any work to show here, I just wanted you to show yours since it was your statement.

Don’t get so defensive because you made a shitty, thoughtless post and are trying to move to a more reasonable position while also still being really really wrong.

Lastly, I may keep the company of some sarcastic assholes on this board, but I generally am pretty low key and try to be a nice guy and don’t make things personal here (with varying degrees of success). But you seem to always lash out when someone calls you on your posts and make things personal for no reason. You might want to turn inward and realize that it’s ok to say “yeah I didn’t really think that one through, you’re right.”
View: https://youtu.be/QoDKh1EAZjI
 

cshea

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The coverage sucks. It’s final group, An and Piercy a hole ahead, and 16. Tony Finau is -3 through 8, 3 shots back, the biggest star on the leaderboard right now and they haven’t shown a single shot of his.

edit: and there it is!
 

jercra

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Really is amazing how many people turn out for this thing every year.
I was there Thursday and yesterday and blew off going today. It's an insane scene. The golfers walking through the food court going from hole to hole is surreal. The fact that no even notices them tells you everything you need to know about the crowd there. 80% party/20% watch golf.
 

cshea

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I was there Thursday and yesterday and blew off going today. It's an insane scene. The golfers walking through the food court going from hole to hole is surreal. The fact that no even notices them tells you everything you need to know about the crowd there. 80% party/20% watch golf.
I’d like to go to a round there once to experience it but not sure it is something I could do for 4 days in a row.

Pulling for Finau today. Dude deserves a W.