2017 Steelers: MyFace Champions
- Thread starter tims4wins
- Start date
- Status
Very true, though someone has to take the fall for letting this garbage offense march down the field four times for TDs (I'm leaving out the short field TD after the INT). They barely scored one TD last week at home against Buffalo. Shazier or no Shazier that is absolutely unacceptable.
I don’t disagree. I’ve never felt that Butler is a special defensive mind. His defenses aren’t anything special at creating turnovers and they did not get one sack today. But I don’t look at the Rooneys as willing to pay top dollar for an elite coordinator. So I’m not holding my breath.
The whole fascination with playing the New England Patriots in the AFC Championship game came crashing down on the heads of the Steelers Sunday in the form of the Jacksonville Jaguars.
The underdog Jaguars upset the Steelers, 45-42, and many of their players charged off Heinz Field angrily yelling for Mike Mitchell.
The free safety was one of several Steelers who were quoted this week as looking forward to playing and beating the Patriots.
David DeCastro blasted them for it after their one-and-done playoff loss
“They were ready to go, they were mad, they were angry, they had something to prove and they did it,’’ said DeCastro, who put the finger on teammates he did not name for riling up the Jaguars.
“Yeah, it’s embarrassing. It really is, man. It just blows my mind. They beat us 30-9 [Oct. 9], we played like crap and we want to talk about New England!
http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/01/14/Steelers-talked-a-good-game-did-not-play-one-Jaguars-Mike-Tomlin-Ben-Roethlisberger-Le-Veon-Bell-Antonio-Brown-David-DeCastro-Blake-Bortles/stories/201801140212
The underdog Jaguars upset the Steelers, 45-42, and many of their players charged off Heinz Field angrily yelling for Mike Mitchell.
The free safety was one of several Steelers who were quoted this week as looking forward to playing and beating the Patriots.
David DeCastro blasted them for it after their one-and-done playoff loss
“They were ready to go, they were mad, they were angry, they had something to prove and they did it,’’ said DeCastro, who put the finger on teammates he did not name for riling up the Jaguars.
“Yeah, it’s embarrassing. It really is, man. It just blows my mind. They beat us 30-9 [Oct. 9], we played like crap and we want to talk about New England!
http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/01/14/Steelers-talked-a-good-game-did-not-play-one-Jaguars-Mike-Tomlin-Ben-Roethlisberger-Le-Veon-Bell-Antonio-Brown-David-DeCastro-Blake-Bortles/stories/201801140212
Thoughts on resting players in week 17? It comes up here a lot -- the balance between protecting against injury and avoiding rust. It may very well have cost the Steelers today. They got off to a bad start.
Additional comments here:
https://www.google.com/amp/profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/01/14/david-decastro-on-teams-pregame-obsession-with-patriots-its-embarrassing-and-stupid/amp/
Among them, you don’t give another team bulletin board material.
In effect, he is calling out Mike Tomlin. Tomlin said nothing incendiary this week, but he kicked the whole thing off by “embracing” the NEP obsession this season. It’s kind of hard to tell your players to keep it zipped when you are the lead cheerleader.
I thought it was self-deprecating humor, no? I mean, sure, right now it looks obnoxious, but it's been like that since the offseason.
I might look, for an example, to the Chargers firing Schottenheimer after a 14-2 season in 2006. Norv Turner only won 11 games the next season, but he did take them to the AFCCG and really rattle the cages of a legendary Patriots squad. They had a top-5 offense for the next 5 years (Turner being an offensive coach probably helped), but their defensive skill quickly abated, and even after going 13-3 in 2009, they still crashed out to the Peak Revis Jets.
The real question is whether the higher levels of management in Pittsburgh could keep what is clearly a very effective player development machine going even if Tomlin is gone. I'm not sure Tomlin (2018 edition) is a coach you can't win a SB with. Saying nothing even of the fact that he has a ring as a HC there, in recent years we've had Dungy, Payton, McCarthy, and Gary Kubiak winning titles, all of whom are viewed as having achilles heels in their coaching style. Since DCMissile brought them up, the Ravens are clearly afraid to move on from the devil they know in John Harbaugh, despite evidence sufficient to result in a firing in most NFL franchises. Coughlin was given 4 very mediocre years of slack after his second miracle run to the lombardi trophy. But when has such patience ever really paid off?
Last edited:
I'm a lifetime Steelers fan, so I have known three head coaches.
Tomlin connects with today's players, but he is woefully lacking when it comes to pivotal moments in games that require a high football IQ (so many examples from today's game alone). This fact, coupled with a culture/approach that focuses more on the 'me' than the 'we' brings this very talented group of players to the same place each season. Having watched every game, of every season, for as long as I can remember...it is so very easy to point out multiple times when Tomlin and/or his staff has been out coached and has appeared to have a subpar, at best, game plan. Without a change of approach or coach/coordinators, this squad is right back here next season...good enough for the playoffs, not good enough to win it all. It is a shame because the window with a group with the kind of talent the Steelers have on offense only stays open so long.
All that said, Tomlin's back next year. The defense did play well in their 10-1 stretch after their early-season loss to the Jags, and the offense, as scattered as it is at times, did its job. Still, this team was a bit of smoke and mirrors when one factors in the number 50+ yard plays they gave up and the number of games they pulled out in the final seconds with a FG.
For all the reasons the Steelers lost today to the Jags, the Patriots will win next week because the Pats don't make the kind of mistakes/choices this Steelers team does.
Tomlin connects with today's players, but he is woefully lacking when it comes to pivotal moments in games that require a high football IQ (so many examples from today's game alone). This fact, coupled with a culture/approach that focuses more on the 'me' than the 'we' brings this very talented group of players to the same place each season. Having watched every game, of every season, for as long as I can remember...it is so very easy to point out multiple times when Tomlin and/or his staff has been out coached and has appeared to have a subpar, at best, game plan. Without a change of approach or coach/coordinators, this squad is right back here next season...good enough for the playoffs, not good enough to win it all. It is a shame because the window with a group with the kind of talent the Steelers have on offense only stays open so long.
All that said, Tomlin's back next year. The defense did play well in their 10-1 stretch after their early-season loss to the Jags, and the offense, as scattered as it is at times, did its job. Still, this team was a bit of smoke and mirrors when one factors in the number 50+ yard plays they gave up and the number of games they pulled out in the final seconds with a FG.
For all the reasons the Steelers lost today to the Jags, the Patriots will win next week because the Pats don't make the kind of mistakes/choices this Steelers team does.
I'll say this: Ben (469 yards, 5 TD), Brown (7/132 2TD) and Bell (16/67 1 TD rushing and 9/88 1 TD receiving) were all really impressive today. Roethlisberger had the bad early pick and left a couple others up for grabs but as an opponent that is still the most terrifying trio in football.
Not to mention the Bryant throw and catch, which was as good a play as there has been in the playoffs and maybe in football this year. They put up six TDs in what, 40 minutes, after a very slow start. That game was so improbable. Jags just made a play or two more than the Steelers. It was bizarre. Crazy, crazy game, but the Steelers did enough today to win against pretty much anyone anywhere. Just not against one team on one day.
It's pretty hard to lose 45-42 and not find coaching flubs. And some were head scratchers. Still 98 percent of the time, you win anyway. Not today. If they convert one of those fourth and inches they might have won the Super Bowl. You just can't make grand pronouncements, from one result in one of those crazy crazy games.
This was another case of a QB (Ben) making 50+ pass attempts and losing a game. Again, Brady is the outlier.
I thought the Steelers were going to lose by a bigger margin than they did. It was amazing how they cameback and made the game as close as they did. I'm.very impressed with Ben's deep ball, especially how several of them occurred on third and long situations. He put the ball right where his receivers could get it.
I don’t know if it made any real difference but that was my first thought. Resting players Week 17 when you have the bye seems like a really bad idea. Putting them in for a half even would have been better.
They hadn’t played a meaningful snap for some of them since Christmas. 3 weeks is a long time. Seems like a Colts like move during the Peyton Era.
The Steelers have been talkers since forever. They were talkers during Cowher, too. This ain't a Tomlin thing. It isn't even a Steelers thing. The Ravens (especially with Ray Lewis) were huge talkers, too. They completely blew off the Giants as a pretender in the Superbowl and it worked out just fine for them. Before that, the Cowboys. I'm sure there are countless other examples.
I know Saint Belichick is the platonic ideal of coaches but there are other ways to run a team/win. And I cannot believe you all are reading Steelers forums/listening to their talk radio. I know all fans are bad but Steelers fans can be a fucking tire fire. You should just watch the video of that drunk Luke Bryan fan for context.
I know Saint Belichick is the platonic ideal of coaches but there are other ways to run a team/win. And I cannot believe you all are reading Steelers forums/listening to their talk radio. I know all fans are bad but Steelers fans can be a fucking tire fire. You should just watch the video of that drunk Luke Bryan fan for context.
I think this is a good point. Everything you read says Tomlin is good at the rah-rah stuff which might not be as cerebral as Belichick, but he probably gets a lot out players and can foster a culture of achievement and confidence in a regime based on what he does best. There's definitely a place for that in the NFL, just as there's a place for coaches who run really complicated schemes and plug guys in. But I think there are times when what Tomlin does can be inadequate. This Steelers team was loaded with talent but by assuming that there was a preordained place in the AFC Championship game, Tomlin might have sent the message that there was no need for anything extra, and that great talent would carry the day.
“ know Saint Belichick is the platonic ideal of coaches but there are other ways to run a team/win. And I cannot believe you all are reading Steelers forums/listening to their talk radio. I know all fans are bad but Steelersfans can be a fucking tire fire. You should just watch the video of thatdrunk Luke Bryan fan for context.”
The fan forums are insane. There’s someone named Mike Souza who posts the worst racist anti-Timlin garbage I’ve ever seen in a respectable newspaper (Post-Gazette). If the moderators are letting that go, I can only wonder what they’re filtering out.
The fan forums are insane. There’s someone named Mike Souza who posts the worst racist anti-Timlin garbage I’ve ever seen in a respectable newspaper (Post-Gazette). If the moderators are letting that go, I can only wonder what they’re filtering out.
Yeah, lots of ways to run a railroad. Pete Carroll won a championship, and nearly two, by being himself -- though we've seen the downside of his approach.
For a while, I thought Belichick's obsession with staying away from bulletin board material was kind of silly. It just never seemed to me likely that it really mattered. But I am now sort of convinced that on the margins, it does -- at least for certain players. Motivation, even when you think players should already be 100 percent motivated, seems to be a thing.
The problem if you're not Belichhick is that it is very hard to run a 100 percent tight ship 100 percent of the time. For coaches who have to worry year to year, how are you ever truly going to make Dez Bryant or Julio Jones believe you will sit them? Nobody doubts Bill would do anything and nobody doubts that he will do what he says. Wes Walker maybe doubted it once.
Once you allow one incident, it's put up or shut up time, and you're dealing with rich, spoiled, emotional, tough men, some who make ten times what you do and some who may actually be able to get you fired if they really put their minds to it. I think most coaches get put in a do-the-best-you-can mode. What exactly is Jason Garrett going to do, even if he wanted to be Belichick?
Tomlin is probably one of the few who could be more like Belichick, but he has found success getting his guys to play with emotion right on the edge. In the last 16 years, the Patriots have sort of put other teams in the position of fighting for table scraps, and when Manning was dominant it made the top crowded in the AFC, but Tomlin has managed to win a championship and to get his team to very big games. Yesterday was a bit fluky, as was the Patriots win in Pittsburgh.
Tomlin didn't drop an easy TD. James did. (I kind of shudder to think what that game might have been like if the Steelers had discovered Vance McDonald a bit earlier this year; that guy clearly had talent but was wasted in San Francisco.). And it wasn't because players were running their mouths. If he makes that catch, it's the Patriots playing the Jags last weekend and Tomlin kicking the crap out of the Titans. Do the Patriots seem to have a preparation edge such that they get a disproportionate share of the little bounces? Yes, but in the end the little bounces really do matter and aren't necessarily an indictment of an entire coaching philosophy or approach.
Have we? I recognize it's a sidenote to your point, but I'd say he's an example of exactly what Devizier is saying. In a crazy, chaotic moment in the waning moments of a do-or-die championship drive, he was merely thinking a few moves ahead (throw now so that we're not forced to throw on a later down and can remain unpredictable), and the one coach in the league meaningfully better than he is was thinking a few moves even beyond that (including having prepared his team for this specific situation). That's about the worst you can say about him, unless you're a USC fan.
If not for that, he wins back-to-back titles for the first time since Belichick in 03-04. Argue if you like that their run from 2012-2016 was powered mostly by below-market contracts for Wilson, Sherman, Baldwin, Wagner, Bennett and Thomas... Carroll still deserves plenty of credit for putting them in that situation in the first place, and keeping the band functioning well together over such a long period.
Well the downside to the Carroll approach is the team becoming undisciplined and eventually collapsing as we see now (or in NE), not necessity one black swan event in the biggest moment of his career.
Right -- yes, it was just a parenthetical but my reference is to recent events, not the goal-line play. His approach seems like it can have a bit of a snowball effect and lead to the team being a bit less than the sum of its parts. Or maybe it has nothing to do with Carroll and everything to do with the offensive line and injuries. I don't know -- I just get the sense that he's not exactly the guy who keeps his head when those about him are losing theirs. Maybe it's all just image based on small samples. He seems like a highs are high, lows are low kind of guy.
The disciplinarian coach can still lead a team that collapses under turmoil and a lack of discipline. Two recent examples are Jim Harbaugh and Tom Coughlin.
The Pete Carroll, Dan Quinn, Mike Tomlin, etc. approach can clearly work. But over the long term, these teams seem to lack the discipline and focus required. In a one off instance it is fine. Hell, if the Patriots and BB and TB12 didn't exist, maybe these teams would all have a bunch of rings. But when going against the Pats, you need to be on another level.
No team in football has a better threesome at QB-WR-RB. If Edelman was healthy, an argument for Brady-Edelman-Lewis could be made given the Brady/Ben gap. But Brown and Bell are scary good.
We are very lucky that Tomlin is so foolish. Between the Pats obsession and his horrific in game management (almost bordering on Herm Edwards and Rich Kotite level), the Steelers have a lot to overcome in order to win it all. The supreme talent of all three (and Brown is downright breathtaking) gives them a shot..
Has Tomlin gotten worse? Last year's nonsense about the Pats having an extra day was easier to slough off as locker room talk that was not designed for the public. But it did give us an insight into his flaws, and the earlier trip on the sideline gave us another one. I just don't remember so many dumbass in game moves in the past.
Here's to no changes whatsoever on that coaching staff. Giving those three competent NFL coaching and leadership would be a bigger threat to the Pats' continued dominance than Tom Brady turning one year older or the Wickersham madness.
Interesting question. Let's not go by stats, because we know when it comes to RBs at least, BB uses them differently than other teams do. Let's just go by talent - yes, I suppose the "eye ball" test. QB-RB-WR-TE combos.....
Patriots: Brady, Lewis, Edelman, Gronkowski
Steelers: Roethlisberger, Bell, Brown, James
Saints: Brees, Kamara, Thomas, Hill
Chiefs: Smith, Hunt, Hill, Kelce
Rams: Goff, Gurley, Kupp, Everett
Falcons: Ryan, Freeman, Jones, Hooper
I'd happily take the Pats' foursome, but Pittsburgh's is really, really good too. Atlanta's should produce better results than they have but that's a strong group as well.
Patriots: Brady, Lewis, Edelman, Gronkowski
Steelers: Roethlisberger, Bell, Brown, James
Saints: Brees, Kamara, Thomas, Hill
Chiefs: Smith, Hunt, Hill, Kelce
Rams: Goff, Gurley, Kupp, Everett
Falcons: Ryan, Freeman, Jones, Hooper
I'd happily take the Pats' foursome, but Pittsburgh's is really, really good too. Atlanta's should produce better results than they have but that's a strong group as well.
In true loser fashion, Mike Mitchell and Le'Veon Bell did not make themselves available to the media today. They talked all they wanted to before the game, but can't face the music today. Typical.
Can someone explain how Tomlin didn’t opt to kick the FG in yesterday’s game with about 30 seconds to go? He needed a score, a successful onside kick and another score. Letting the first possession take up all the remaining time on the clock in a playoff game when you are down by two scores isn’t just poor situational coaching. It’s malpractice. How is that remotely defensible?
Ed Bouchette with an article about Big Ben/Haley's bad relationship and that Haley is most likely on his way out.
"Two days after their loss to New England in the AFC championship a year ago, Roethlisberger said on 93.7 The Fan that he was contemplating retirement. After he decided to return, he insisted concerns about his health, his family and recent CTE tests prompted retirement thoughts.
However, a Steelers source surmised that some biting words from Haley the day after the loss in New England prompted a frustrated Roethlisberger to bring up retirement publicly.
The coach and quarterback rarely talked along the sidelines, never huddled to discuss upcoming strategy while their defense was on the field. It came to a head when the coaches were unprepared to have a play ready when the Jesse James touchdown was overturned against New England.
Mike Tomlin made the unusual move at midseason to have quarterbacks coach Randy Fichtner leave the coaches’ booth for the sideline. It came at the behest of Roethlisberger, who wanted a “buffer” between him and Haley, according to a CBS report at the time.
Haley himself took to the booth in the preseason but explained it was merely to see if he might prefer working there during games rather than on the sideline. All denied it had anything to do with Roethlisberger, and Haley returned to the sideline once the regular season began."
http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/01/15/Ben-Roethlisberger-retirement-todd-Haley-offensive-coordinator-replacement-Randy-Fichtner-Mike-Tomlin-Jaguars-Patriots/stories/201801150139
"Two days after their loss to New England in the AFC championship a year ago, Roethlisberger said on 93.7 The Fan that he was contemplating retirement. After he decided to return, he insisted concerns about his health, his family and recent CTE tests prompted retirement thoughts.
However, a Steelers source surmised that some biting words from Haley the day after the loss in New England prompted a frustrated Roethlisberger to bring up retirement publicly.
The coach and quarterback rarely talked along the sidelines, never huddled to discuss upcoming strategy while their defense was on the field. It came to a head when the coaches were unprepared to have a play ready when the Jesse James touchdown was overturned against New England.
Mike Tomlin made the unusual move at midseason to have quarterbacks coach Randy Fichtner leave the coaches’ booth for the sideline. It came at the behest of Roethlisberger, who wanted a “buffer” between him and Haley, according to a CBS report at the time.
Haley himself took to the booth in the preseason but explained it was merely to see if he might prefer working there during games rather than on the sideline. All denied it had anything to do with Roethlisberger, and Haley returned to the sideline once the regular season began."
http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/01/15/Ben-Roethlisberger-retirement-todd-Haley-offensive-coordinator-replacement-Randy-Fichtner-Mike-Tomlin-Jaguars-Patriots/stories/201801150139
Contrast that to the poor kid for New Orleans who misplayed the last play, who stood there and answered the questions
With the experience of the Wickersham article, color me skeptical re: that article, especially when it includes phrases like "a Steelers source surmised."
There's a bunch of discussion of it in the game thread. I'd say the majority agreed with you, and a couple people argued that getting the 7 first (once you had some field position) was the better % play.
Brian Burke of ESPN analytics linked to this article with some analysis, but no clear answer for the specific dynamics yesterday http://www.advancedfootballanalytics.com/index.php/home/research/game-strategy/155-field-goal-first
Personally, I saw it as you did---no real case for not kicking once you got to 30 seconds (and for me a real case for kicking the play before)
Except Ed Bouchette isn't an outsider coming in to write a hit piece. He's around the team every day and is about as respected a Steelers media member as they come.
Fair enough, although Bouchette's sources seem to just be a previously-published CBS article and a source that admittedly is just "surmising" things. He doesn't even say something along the lines of "the feel around the team is..." or anything like that.
All that said you're probably right that this story has way more veracity to it than some of the more ridiculous parts of the Wickersham article. I think for better or worse the discussion around that article has really just made me read articles (sports and otherwise) a lot closer in terms of the sourcing.
Bouchette said "a Steelers source surmised..." before the juiciest item in the article about Roethlisberger's retirement stemming from Haley. So his sourcing, at least by type, is very clear for the 'headline' item. That is hugely different than what Wickersham did.
The idea that the primary critique of Wickersham was anonymous sources is a red herring---the problem was how little he explained what was from a source and what was his own assessment far more than whether he named the sources (no one expects many, or any, named sources in an investigative piece). Bouchette doesn't have anywhere near the same approach in the article above (though he does leave unclear some of sourcing for Haley and the QB coaches location.)
The idea that the primary critique of Wickersham was anonymous sources is a red herring---the problem was how little he explained what was from a source and what was his own assessment far more than whether he named the sources (no one expects many, or any, named sources in an investigative piece). Bouchette doesn't have anywhere near the same approach in the article above (though he does leave unclear some of sourcing for Haley and the QB coaches location.)
Well in his defense I don’t think he ever thought Brown was going to go full moronic and try to bulldoze his way in the endzone from like the 6 yard line instead of getting out of bounds. In a game of one dumb decision after another, that was in the top 3.
With that said, Tomlin may be the worst in game manager in football and that’s not hyperbole.
Imo the playcalls after first down were dumb, but the strategy was correct. You need a TD anyway, it’s easier to score a TD from the 5 or 15 than from midfield or so. However, time was of the essence, so it should have been three quick shots to the endzone, then kick the fg if it gets to fourth. If you score a TD there, you still need to recover a kick, but then 10-15 yards gets you into fg range, which can be done in 6 seconds or so.
So I agree with this in the main. Given how quickly teams can get into FG range (especially after recovering an onsides kick), it makes sense to try to score a TD even if you only leave yourself a few seconds to get the onsides and get back into FG range.
The problem, of course, is that the Steelers just misplayed the situation. It was an abject failure, particularly at :32 left after the penalty and runoff with the Steelers facing 2nd and goal at the Jags’ 15.
Just to reiterate, it seems like there are two options:
1) Kick the FG here and then hope to get the onsides and throw a miracle TD (as would happen later that afternoon, in fact).
2) Take one or two shots at the end zone, leaving yourself 20+ seconds after the score.
And instead.... Big Ben hit Brown on a pass that kept him in bounds and short of the end zone at the 4-yard-line.
I don’t know whose fault that was - Haley, Tomlin, Big Ben, AB? But either way, it reeked of the same kind of panic and indecision at a crucial moment that led to the disasterous fake spike play.
Last edited:
The Steelers are just not good at close and tight games, which goes to coaching IMO. Situational football does not appear to be something they are good at from a Coaching, execution, urgency or thought process. The narrative just keeps changing post-game, to me it's a simple at this point as Ben and Haley HATE each other to the point of reports saying they talk through another coach. This can't help practicing situational football and shows up in games where everyone needs to be on the same page. As a Pats fan I hope the Steelers don't make any changes and go into next season with the same coaching staff, but I think either Ben or Haley needs to be cut loose ASAP and I think it's safe to assume it won't be Ben.
- Status